my squirrel is showing symptoms of MBD (not improving even after cal supplements)

[Rodent345]

i need help for my squirrel (btw i live in india)

we found it laying on our courtyard 3-4months ago. it was 1 month old when we had found it. i guess it was feeling cold from the sprinkler that was watering our grass. i fed milk (diluted milk from milk powder) for 1-2 weeks and it was healthy. it could run and climb no issues.

but then after 1.5 months later it started to show symptoms of MBD. like the nails getting stuck in the fabric and less active and now its really weak it cant run it waddles like a crocodile. mind you i have been feeding it calcium carbonate powder with mangoes for the past 2 weeks. i feed it 1.2g of it everyday in 3-4 portions, I tried avoiding food with high phosphorus to cal ratio but it doesn't seem to work
I stopped feeding it nuts cuz i think that might be the reason it got MBD in the first place

photo of the info on contents of the supplement:
https://ibb.co/4V89T99

im going to list a bunch of stuff we feed it so u can get a bigger picture here:
mangoes (often), beans (rarely), rice (occasionally), capsicum (rarely), green leaves (very rarely)
going to a vet is not an option there isn't any nearby the closest one is 5h drive away

video of my squirrel walking:
https://youtube.com/shorts/IAUyLTr191U

video of my squirrel standing still (is this normal? it seems like its pulsing too hard):
https://youtube.com/shorts/PPS_C69tBYQ?feature=share

[Spanky]

I am not a palm squirrel expert so my comments apply to squirrels in general. I know fruit is a bigger part of palm squirrel diets versus our reds, greys and fox squirrels.

Yes, stop all nuts and seeds immediately... avoiding these high phosphorus to cal ratio foods is essential, it is impossible to provide enough calcium to offset high phosphorus... it simply does not work that way (if it did, it would make things much simpler in treating MBD). Here are a couple of helpful links on MBD:

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?17680-Emergency-Treatment-for-MBD-(Updated-3-31-09)

https://www.henryspets.com/emergency-treatment-for-mbd/

On the calcium supplement label, is there more information about the amount (besides the percentage) of elemental calcium carbonate (e.g. 500mg per teaspoon)?

When dealing with MBD babies brought to me I mix up the calcium powder with water so there is 100mg of elemental calcium per 1ml. I start giving 1ml every 4 hours up to 5 doses per day. If their stools turn chalky white, that means they are passing some of the calcium unprocessed... they are getting more than they can digest so I back off the calcium from there and try to find the balance where they are getting as much as they can digest, but not more.

The links above will provide some other helpful info as well.

She does appear to be suffering MBD to me... juvenile squirrels with MBD that have been brought to me for treatment sometimes have not developed correctly as a result of a calcium poor and / or phosphorus rich diet. They can sometimes have deformities, typically in their legs. I had one litter of 4 and 3 of the 4 ended up with shorter (stubbier?) legs than I'd consider normal, but they were releasable (and at least 2 of them continue to visit my yard and eat from the feeders).

[Rodent345]

I am not a palm squirrel expert so my comments apply to squirrels in general. I know fruit is a bigger part of palm squirrel diets versus our reds, greys and fox squirrels.

Yes, stop all nuts and seeds immediately... avoiding these high phosphorus to cal ratio foods is essential, it is impossible to provide enough calcium to offset high phosphorus... it simply does not work that way (if it did, it would make things much simpler in treating MBD). Here are a couple of helpful links on MBD:

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?17680-Emergency-Treatment-for-MBD-(Updated-3-31-09)

https://www.henryspets.com/emergency-treatment-for-mbd/

On the calcium supplement label, is there more information about the amount (besides the percentage) of elemental calcium carbonate (e.g. 500mg per teaspoon)?

When dealing with MBD babies brought to me I mix up the calcium powder with water so there is 100mg of elemental calcium per 1ml. I start giving 1ml every 4 hours up to 5 doses per day. If their stools turn chalky white, that means they are passing some of the calcium unprocessed... they are getting more than they can digest so I back off the calcium from there and try to find the balance where they are getting as much as they can digest, but not more.

The links above will provide some other helpful info as well.

She does appear to be suffering MBD to me... juvenile squirrels with MBD that have been brought to me for treatment sometimes have not developed correctly as a result of a calcium poor and / or phosphorus rich diet. They can sometimes have deformities, typically in their legs. I had one litter of 4 and 3 of the 4 ended up with shorter (stubbier?) legs than I'd consider normal, but they were releasable (and at least 2 of them continue to visit my yard and eat from the feeders).


henry's blocks r way too expensive can you guys tell me how do i do a proper diet without buying it online.

[Spanky]

Can Mazuri Rat & Mouse Diet be bought in India? :thinking

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=325214&stc=1

[CritterMom]

This site will be helpful to you: http://rehabbersden.org/index.php/36-pages/pricing-table/simple/261-hand-rearing-and-rehabilitation-of-orphaned-palm-squirrels-funambulus-sp-revised-contd

There is a ton of info on them and I believe you can contact the person who writes it for help.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

[FONT=comic sans ms]
On the calcium supplement label, is there more information about the amount (besides the percentage) of elemental calcium carbonate (e.g. 500mg per teaspoon)?

When dealing with MBD babies brought to me I mix up the calcium powder with water so there is 100mg of elemental calcium per 1ml. I start giving 1ml every 4 hours up to 5 doses per day. If their stools turn chalky white, that means they are passing some of the calcium unprocessed... they are getting more than they can digest so I back off the calcium from there and try to find the balance where they are getting as much as they can digest, but not more.

Hi Rodent 345:
Just a suggestion and comment. From the label on the bottle of your Calcium supplement, it reads that the form of calcium is Calcium carbonate 96.5%. If this is correct, just to simplify the math without any real risk, I would just consider this 100% Calcium carbonate. As Spanky mentioned, the amount of calcium that is dosed for MBD (as well as daily maintenance dosing of calcium) is always the Elemental calcium. Calcium carbonate contains 40% Elemental calcium so if you needed to measure out as Spanky has suggested, 500mg of Elemental calcium, you would need to weight out (this would require an accurate digital scale) 1.25 Grams (this is the same as 1250 mg) of the Calcium carbonate (1250 x 0.4=500). You would then, according to what Spanky has advised, thoroughly dissolve this 1.25 grams of Calcium carbonate in 5 ml of water (warm water will work best) and then draw up 1 ml of this solution in a 1 ml syringe withOUT a needle and administer it every 4 hours so you little Squirrel will get the full 500 mg of Elemental Calcium in a 24 hour period that Spanky has recommended. It is essential to start his now! You can flavor the water with a drop of honey or syrup for taste enhancement if needed.

Hopefully, you can locate the Mazury Rat & Mouse diet. This can be free fed (give as much as your Squirrel wants (hopefully he will like it!). This contains contains Calcium and once your Squirrel is eating a full diet of Mazuri blocks regularly ( Not having any experience with Palms, I am estimating that these "smaller" Squirrels will be full with 3-4 blocks/day. When he is eating the blocks regularly, you can cut the supplemental Calcium dosing to 250 mg of Elemental Calcium per day as your Squirrel will be obtaining some maintenance Calcioum from the Mazuri Blocks.

My other concern about this is that you will still be giving your Squirrel a relatively large dose of Vitamin D ( 500 IU for every 1.25 grams of Calcium carbonate!). I would recommend if at all possible, obtain a preparation that only contains calcium carbonate and NO Vitamin D. That may not be easy to find or even possible. If you can find some calcium carbonate that contains less Vitamin D, I would suggest using that! All the Vitamin D tha t is necessary should be coming from the Mazuri Blocks anyway!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Rodent345]

Hi Rodent 345:
Just a suggestion and comment. From the label on the bottle of your Calcium supplement, it reads that the form of calcium is Calcium carbonate 96.5%. If this is correct, just to simplify the math without any real risk, I would just consider this 100% Calcium carbonate. As Spanky mentioned, the amount of calcium that is dosed for MBD (as well as daily maintenance dosing of calcium) is always the Elemental calcium. Calcium carbonate contains 40% Elemental calcium so if you needed to measure out as Spanky has suggested, 500mg of Elemental calcium, you would need to weight out (this would require an accurate digital scale) 1.25 Grams (this is the same as 1250 mg) of the Calcium carbonate (1250 x 0.4=500). You would then, according to what Spanky has advised, thoroughly dissolve this 1.25 grams of Calcium carbonate in 5 ml of water (warm water will work best) and then draw up 1 ml of this solution in a 1 ml syringe withOUT a needle and administer it every 4 hours so you little Squirrel will get the full 500 mg of Elemental Calcium in a 24 hour period that Spanky has recommended. It is essential to start his now! You can flavor the water with a drop of honey or syrup for taste enhancement if needed.

Hopefully, you can locate the Mazury Rat & Mouse diet. This can be free fed (give as much as your Squirrel wants (hopefully he will like it!). This contains contains Calcium and once your Squirrel is eating a full diet of Mazuri blocks regularly ( Not having any experience with Palms, I am estimating that these "smaller" Squirrels will be full with 3-4 blocks/day. When he is eating the blocks regularly, you can cut the supplemental Calcium dosing to 250 mg of Elemental Calcium per day as your Squirrel will be obtaining some maintenance Calcioum from the Mazuri Blocks.

My other concern about this is that you will still be giving your Squirrel a relatively large dose of Vitamin D ( 500 IU for every 1.25 grams of Calcium carbonate!). I would recommend if at all possible, obtain a preparation that only contains calcium carbonate and NO Vitamin D. That may not be easy to find or even possible. If you can find some calcium carbonate that contains less Vitamin D, I would suggest using that! All the Vitamin D tha t is necessary should be coming from the Mazuri Blocks anyway!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

my budget is around 1000rs - 1500rs i.e. $12-$18. i am unemployed ;( how can i get a smaller portion for now?
the mazuri one costs 50$ and it looks like a huge bag. also idk if i can afford to get 100% cal supplement if i go for the squirrel food. if i have no choice i will to ask my friend to help me out financially but i would like to keep that as my last resort, i live in the south so there r alot of fresh vegetables here, is there any way i can get a smaller portion of the mezuri diet or away to prepare the food bymyself

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

my budget is around 1000rs - 1500rs i.e. $12-$18. i am unemployed ;( how can i get a smaller portion for now?
the mazuri one costs 50$ and it looks like a huge bag. also idk if i can afford to get 100% cal supplement if i go for the squirrel food. if i have no choice i will to ask my friend to help me out financially but i would like to keep that as my last resort, i live in the south so there r alot of fresh vegetables here, is there any way i can get a smaller portion of the mezuri diet or away to prepare the food bymyself

I checked also on Amazon.in and other possibilities and that is what I found also for the cost of Mazuri Rat and Mouse Diet fro Indian sources. That is expensive! Also, one of the the major issues we need to to take into account with the Calcium supplementation is the size of Palm Squirrels. I know little about them and have never seen one! Apparently they are smaller than many Flying Squirrels and what I have seen for a weight range is 60-200 Grams. It would be my recommendation that you obtain an accurate weight on your Squirrel ASAP. Although the 500mg of Elemental Calcium is a general recommendation, this is for an average Squirrel in the USA. We do have Flying Squirrels which are relatively small and for the "average" adult Flyer, we can use 250mg of Elemental Calcium per the protocol that many of us use which is from Henry's
( https://henryspets.com/emergency-treatment-for-mbd/ ). I would guess from my very limited knowledge base that the weight of your Squirrel is similar to the weight of an "average" Flyer and maybe even less. I would recommend that having now taken this significant weight issue into account, that you use on 250mg of Elemental Calcium per day and divide it and give the same frequency as suggested for the 500mg daily supplements. The actual number would of course be half of what I calculated for the 500mg of Elemental Calcium so you would need to weigh out 625mg of your Calcium preparation to equal 250mg of Elemental calcium. Just round this down to 600mg to make it easier and it will be fine. Palm Squirrels are relatively small and that adjustment in the daily dose of Elemental Calcium will be appropriate! With that will be less Vitamin D also which is also good.

My opinion only but if I had to choose between getting pure Calcium carbonate and the Mazuri Blocks, I would get the Blocks and use the Calcium that you have. BUT, plain Calcium Carbonate should be available and probably significantly less expensive than the Calcium supplement you currently use and I believe safer because I still don't like the relatively high Vitamin D content of your supplement! It would be ideal to just supplement plain Calcium and have the very tiny amount of recommended daily Vitamin D supplied by the Mazuri blocks! When I get some more time at work I will do a little research on Calcium supplements available in India.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Mel1959]

I am currently working with someone else in India who has a squirrel with suspected MBD. She has purchased Exotic Nutrition calcium supplement from an online source. However, the cost may be prohibitive for you. Another option for calcium is to use eggshells and grind them into a powder. Here’s a link to the process. https://www.mamanatural.com/how-to-make-eggshell-calcium/

You might have to do a little research to determine how much is adequate for dosing, or do as Spanky suggested and dose till you see white in the feces then back off a little from there. The powder can be mixed with water and given via syringe or mixed with something that you know will be eaten completely for each dose. You want the calcium level to remain high and stable throughout the treatment which can take many months.

Another option for rodent block is Envigo Harlan Teklad 2018 rodent block. It must be purchased online but can be bought in a variety of sizes. Shipping to India might be expensive, but you can research it.

[Rodent345]

Mel1959 and thesquirrel2018

I will look into the egg shell powder and if it's too risky I will get 100% cal somehow don't worry but can someone find me squirrel food below 2000rs i.e.25$
I searched all of the brands all of u suggested and all of them r either too expensive or unavailable.
Its really unhealthy to feed it mangoes all the time I need a proper diet for it.
This might sound rude or unappreciative but please do not assume so, I am overwhelmed by the support u guys r giving right now and the sheer number of active members is crazy but I do not need more advice on cal supplements cuz after all the time I spent looking up on the internet and after the help u guys gave I know exactly what to do:

1. Recommended Dosage is slightly lower for palm squirrel due to the difference in weight from ur avg squirrel

2.after a few days it's preferred to switch to a 100% cal supplement

I will resort to the egg shell method If I absolutely can't get 100% cal on the internet

But right now please could someone find where I can get squirrel blocks under 20$ (to India)

[Mel1959]

I found this: https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/lab-animal-feed-and-diet-17456463473.html

And this: https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/rat-and-mice-feed-25-kg-2849777959673.html

And this: https://www.indiamart.com/suresh-agencies-hyderabad/


I’m not sure what the price will be to where you are, but they are manufactured in India. You want to find a hard extruded block.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Rodent345:
I sent a PM to you.
Regards,
StS

[Rodent345]

guys i just cant find the squirrel blocks, either the suppliers dont respond or its out of stock or its >10kg which makes it expensive.i have looked into every link u guys shared in this thread. i have looked into making one myself and its a nightmare. can someone send me a link?. my budget is around 25$ and i live in india. i am spending all of the budget on squirrel feed and i will use crushed egg shells baking method for cal supplements. Its a palm squirrel so i guess it eats around 3 blocks per day.

immediate response would greatly be appreciated im gonna be busy after 1.5 weeks and i need to place order asap and get the 100% cal supplement ready. dont worry about the cal supplements just help me with the feed

[Spanky]

It is a long shot... but here in the states there are eBay sellers whose entire business is buying the large / bulk Mazuri and Teklad rodent block and reselling it in smaller, usually 5 pound (~2 kg) bags. It may be worth a try to search eBay and anything similar in India?

[Rodent345]

It is a long shot... but here in the states there are eBay sellers whose entire business is buying the large / bulk Mazuri and Teklad rodent block and reselling it in smaller, usually 5 pound (~2 kg) bags. It may be worth a try to search eBay and anything similar in India?


Nope.😔

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

guys i just cant find the squirrel blocks, either the suppliers dont respond or its out of stock or its >10kg which makes it expensive.i have looked into every link u guys shared in this thread. i have looked into making one myself and its a nightmare. can someone send me a link?. my budget is around 25$ and i live in india. i am spending all of the budget on squirrel feed and i will use crushed egg shells baking method for cal supplements. Its a palm squirrel so i guess it eats around 3 blocks per day.

immediate response would greatly be appreciated im gonna be busy after 1.5 weeks and i need to place order asap and get the 100% cal supplement ready. dont worry about the cal supplements just help me with the feed

Hi Rodent345:
Would you please post the links to the expensive and large volume options. Please look again at my prior PM.
By the way, thanks to Mel for suggesting the egg shells as it is approximately 95% Calcium Carbonate! You can grind this up into a powder!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Rodent345]

some ingredients for the homemade squirrel blocks itself cost around half of my budget...its not feasible
I will get clavamox asap btw it does not pop all the time, its around 40% of the time.
dont worry i wont feed it any anti biotics without getting all the info from u guys
i wish i could get the feed asap

[Rodent345]

80 g Pure Whey Protein Isolate for adult formula
1 package (45 g) Henry's Healthy Vita-Mins*

Any substitute for the Henry multi vitamins?

If these two ingredients can be attained in less than 2500 rupees i.e. 32$

I can make it home
Btw how long will this last

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I sent a PM in response to your PM
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Rodent345]

https://youtu.be/xAxv2Ag2D9o

[Spanky]

Your squirrel appears very dehydrated based on the "spiky" way her fur looks in the video. This could be what is commonly referred to as "kitten fur syndrome" which is a combination of dehydration, under-nourishment and MBD. If this is what is going on, it will require dedication for many weeks and even months to pull her through.

First is hydration... even more so now that she is receiving antibiotics. A squirrel cannot properly digest food and extract nutrients if they are severely hydrated, so even if they are eating, they are not getting the nutrients needed. We see this too often with people caring for babies assuming the formula will provide hydration but hydration and nutrition are 2 different things and almost opposites.