I need advice about amputation

[teyuna]

As a last resort, I am considering amputation.

April's story: My little squirrel, April, came to me at six weeks of age with rear leg paralysis and many other problems, for which I provided 2 months of intensive care. She's done really well for the past three years she has been with me--eats well, sleeps well, and gets around like a champ despite her paralysis. It's astounding what she can do!

However, about a year ago, she regained some feeling in her rear right leg. At first I was overjoyed. But whatever sensation of tingling or itching it created for her, she began chewing to "solve" it. The result is a long open sore that won't heal, that extends from her just below her knee (if squirrels have knees) to her foot. it has exposed tendon or bone and she has lost two of her toes.

I've tried everything during the past year, including getting help first from my house-call vet, plus applying veterycin, anti itch, hot spot spray, saline solution, betadine, topical gabapentin, silver sulfadiazine--and no matter what the attempted treatment, it simply never heals. Doesn't even scab over. It used to dry up but she goes after it daily now, so it is larger than it was and is always raw. I fear sepsis, necrosis, or bone infection. So, starting a few weeks ago, I started taking her to a new vet twice a day for dosages of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories. After two weeks of that, she clearly felt better, but the chewing never stops. A week ago, the doc placed a very nice bandage on her and it lasted all of 5 hours! Her amazing acrobatics caused it to get hooked on something in her cage. Neither he, the vet techs, nor I can get or keep an Elizabethan collar on her (I could go on and on about my frustrations with that, as we tried all styles and sizes, she couldn't hold her food to eat as it was in the way, etc., etc.).

However, as you can tell from all of the above, I and the vet have tried everything in the category of "treatment" (unless someone here knows of something else, of course). My conclusion at this point, is that even if the current wound can be covered with a bandage long enough for it to heal, it won't stop the tingling, and as soon as the bandage is off, she'll chew her leg up again.

So I have three questions:
1) do any of you have experience with a "leg chewer" who stopped (without needing to wear a permanent e-collar) and if so, why did they; and
2) have any of you had a squirrel with an amputation, and was it possible to do the amputation at the "knee?" My current vet says it has to be at the hip, and that sounds awful to me for several reasons.
3) do we have any vets among our members?

thanks for your help!

[CritterMom]

Did you by any chance try oral gabapentin? Phantom pain/itching are horrible.

The only person on here who currently has an amputee (one rear leg) is having some medical issues and may or may not see this. His squirrel and every other one I have "seen" on here did fantastic with amputation. Your vet is right about it having to be at the hip. If she has a nub she will use it as a limb and it s not equipped to do that - the end she continues to put down on the ground will be raw all the time and you will have not solved your problem. Rear legs in particular must be done at the hip. With nothing to step onto, they will adjust their positioning to center the remaining leg so they balance okay. When healed, she will run rings around you and leave you in the dust! It is always the humans that have the trouble with this procedure - the animals usually sail right through.

A lot of vets are way too stingy with pain meds for "wild" animals after surgery, and I would insist on a combination of meloxicam and tramadol, each given once per day, with the tramadol at night to facilitate sleeping. That combo seems to keep them happy and not being stressed out from post surgical pain.

[teyuna]

Thank you for explaining further what is involved with the hip amputation. I was assuming that she would continue to just drag her right leg behind her when she moves around, but that it would just be shorter. But if it is more vulnerable or prone to irritation as a partial leg, I can understand that reasoning. The vet's explanation for hip rather than knee amputation was, "she'll just chew up higher on her leg." I found this to be inadequate as a reason, since she simply lacks the spinal flexibility to reach higher (she has never chewed higher). But the potential irritation of the stub that you are describing makes more sense to me, and your reassurance that she will figure out how to strike a new balance is comforting. She learned early on to arrange her back legs so she can sit like a "regular squirrel" and hold her food. I didn't want to take that from her!

About gabapentin: i can't believe in my long detailed story that I forgot to mention that, lol! Yes, she had been on oral gabapentin from the doc twice per day for two weeks while also given the antibiotic and anti-inflammatory, and now she gets the gabapentin and the meloxicam in her water. But her chewing continues, which is why I feel desperate to consider amputation.

Thanks for the advice about surgery aftercare, too. I had imagined there would be less pain if the doc amputated only the part where she has almost no feeling (the lower leg) But clearly, she has feeling in her hip, so that worries me.

Thanks again!

[CritterMom]

Does she have any use of the other leg at all? And if so, how have you dealt with "drag sores" which are always a problem with the little paras.

[teyuna]

Does she have any use of the other leg at all? And if so, how have you dealt with "drag sores" which are always a problem with the little paras.

No, she has no use of the left leg. She can lift up her right leg by using her hip muscles, but doesn't have that kind of control on the left side. But other than that lifting of her right leg, there is no other useable motion of any kind on her right leg (the one she wounds).

She drags both legs behind her in a pretty straight line when she crawls with her front legs (at high speed! It's awesome!). She hasn't had any problems with drag sores or even a loss of hair, or callouses on her legs where they come in contact with surfaces. I'm guessing this is probably because I have lined all her spaces with fleece and flannel and because the room I used to have her exercise in doesn't have many rough surfaces.

She used to get out of her spacious cage once per day for an hour, but I haven't let her do that for the past several months since she created this oozing sore on her leg, because it would just make it worse if she were to drag her leg across the rug.

[stepnstone]

Did you by any chance try oral gabapentin? Phantom pain/itching are horrible.

His squirrel and every other one I have "seen" on here did fantastic with amputation. Your vet is right about it having to be at the hip.


I couldn't have said it better then what you two have....
Annie (vet thinks) she got caught in trap, her foot infected. vet was ab treating but foot turned necrotic and was sending infection up her leg bone due to crush injury and infection cutting off blood supply. I had two choices, euthanize or take the leg. I didn't give it a second thought!
Annie's surgery was done by lazer surgery, she healed fast and it haven't stopped her at all except.... she can't get /jump on my desk anymore and chew my keyboard.:rolf

[teyuna]

I couldn't have said it better then what you two have....
Annie (vet thinks) she got caught in trap, her foot infected. vet was ab treating but foot turned necrotic and was sending infection up her leg bone due to crush injury and infection cutting off blood supply. I had two choices, euthanize or take the leg. I didn't give it a second thought!
Annie's surgery was done by lazer surgery, she healed fast and it haven't stopped her at all except.... she can't get /jump on my desk anymore and chew my keyboard.:rolf

Thanks for mentioning laser surgery; I wouldn't have thought to ask about what type of surgery it might be.

Was her leg amputated at the hip?

[Snicker Bar]

I have a 5 year old para. Her name is “V” for Victoria :)

When she came to me, she had a full length tail and two complete but paralyzed rear legs. I attempted to introduce a second young para to her, in hopes they could bond and grow up together. Sadly it didn’t go well. V took a nip to a rear paw. It never completely healed in spite of antibiotics, wraps, etc. etc. We went into complete cage lockdown, but she was miserable because V loves to fly like the wind :(

Thankfully, we were introduced to the “Skute” by Chickenlegs; a para expert here :) She sent us a few variations and sizes . Most worked , but over time, Victorias legs became more rigid and no longer dragged flaccid, but more like an ‘M’ (or her snow plow, I call it). So, we developed what we call, a “feed sack” skute. Sort of a footie with the toes cut out, and a drawstring to cinch above her hips.

All this to say, the skute is what has prevented V from self mutilating. The skute protects her wraps /light bandages I change daily. And no need for e collars!! Because , over the years, through little nips from her first sister, and a cut to her tail from (??); she has lost BOTH her rear legs from the hocks down :( It seems that once they get a wound… they stay in a perpetual state of healing , but never completely (or at least with her ). Her tail became so bad, we went to Dr Emerson. I was afraid to do it “locally” (myself) because of her very deformed and “wonky” body. I worried the anesthesia would kill her.

While there, I figured Dr. E would consider amputating both the raw, granulated “nubs”’that used to be her feet and ankles while taking the tail (it became dangerously necrotic in spite of meds) But, she only took the tail. Said that as long as I managed/kept the wounds/nubs protected, leave well enough alone. We have not had to use pain meds. because she is a complete para… no feeling/mobility at all. But definitely know the gabbapentin is great for this, if suspect there’s a need.

Every day, we have our routine: We express bladder , clean the nubs with chlorhexidine, and then apply a small amount of antibiotic cream. Then a light wrap, and then the skute. The skute protects her legs/nubs from drag sores from the cage bars , and anywhere else she wants to go. We even have a separate variety of her “off road” slicker skutes that we wear over the soft footie ones, should she want to go outside and play on the porch on the limbs.

Just wanted to mention how much these (skute skirts) help… I find that if she wears it all day, and only off at night when she’s sleeping, there is minimal signs of barbering . She does like to clean herself up?? But not to the point of complete mutilation. Maybe you could try some wound management plus a light wrap/skute…. For a week or so? And see if healing can come, at least enough to avoid surgery, if you’re hesitant to have it done? We’ve gone 5 years like this. At a glance, her back legs (what’s left ) look like she’s “half a squirrel “ as Tuff’s Mom calls her lol. But this girl flies like a hurricane through the bedroom and porch. She’s the smallest and most handicapped, but the Alpha of the whole NR gang here :)

Here are a couple of her skutes …

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[stepnstone]

Thanks for mentioning laser surgery; I wouldn't have thought to ask about what type of surgery it might be.

Was her leg amputated at the hip?
Yes it was, picture is day after laser surgery.
325140
She was rescued as baby 5-6 weeks old, my inexperience (at that time) gave her mbd. She completely recovered.
If I can remember correctly she was approx 4 years old when "accident" happened. She will be 13 come August.
She does extreamly well, she climbs very well as long as she has something to hold onto, she just can't jump too high.

[teyuna]

Yes it was, picture is day after laser surgery.
325140
She was rescued as baby 5-6 weeks old, my inexperience (at that time) gave her mbd. She completely recovered.
If I can remember correctly she was approx 4 years old when "accident" happened. She will be 13 come August.
She does extreamly well, she climbs very well as long as she has something to hold onto, she just can't jump too high.

Thank you for the great pictures and the descriptions!

April saw her vet today and we discussed options. He wants to sedate her and take blood tests to see how her organs are functioning and what the chances are for her surviving general anesthetic and amputation surgery. I want to know too, obviously, because if she has a less that 50/50 chance, then I won't want to do it.

However, just intuitively, my sense of her strength and health is so much better than what he has subjectively (pre-any actual tests, I mean) estimated. She is so active, energetic, playful and affectionate, eats well and sleeps well.

How healthy was your little one at the time of the surgery? What kinds of tests did your vet do? What did the aftercare entail? My little girl does not like to be held, so it's very hard to treat her wound and even clean her potty area. I attribute this "wildness" aspect of her to the fact that her life threatening (understatement!) injuries happened from a predator attack. I think she is hyper-vigilant beyond what most captive squirrels would be. She's quite bonded with me in every way except being picked up! she loves being pet, scratched, and played with, but can't stand being picked up. I try to cleanse her pee and poo area by saturating the fabric she drags herself over to get from one level of her cage to the other. It works some, but not enough.

I'll keep trying new things; I'm completely dedicated to supporting her in whatever will save her.

[teyuna]

Update: Soon, I will be taking April in for diagnostic testing to see what the prognosis is for surviving an amputation surgery. So I have a few questions for those of you who have experienced surgery and the procedures leading up to it.

First, the doc seemed to be saying to me that the sedation needed just for the tests (xrays, blood tests, etc.) could be "risky." Can anyone tell me what they have experienced as options for sedation for these procedures, so I can educate myself? I mean, what do they use? I assume that it is different from "general anesthetic," but I don't know the options. I may be paranoid, but I think my vet is trying to track me into a decision to euthanize her, as he brings it up frequently, shaking his head sadly as if April has a low quality of life. She does not have a low quality of life. If I can post a video here (can I?), I can show how amazingly active she is. It's astounding. And, how amazingly affectionate and interactive she is. The vet never sees this, as when he holds her to give meds, she is terrified and seems willing to bite (she trusts me, but not others, except for one of my granddaughter, as she knows her). So these terrifying exams are all he sees of her. I think he has a very narrow view of who she is and how she is doing. I've tried to show him video of her on my phone, but he just seems disinterested. Anyway, I would appreciate any insights about "sedation." What they use, what you've seen in terms of your pet's response / ability to recover from sedation.

Second, our vet seems to feel that she "may not survive the surgery, or even just the anesthetic." (I assume he means "general anesthetic.") Again, I would love to hear people's experience with this. She is strong, energetic...but of course there is no way without testing that I know whether her leg has become infected, whether the infection is systemic, etc. So, I have so far agreed to the x-rays and testing to see if amputation is an option, but am concerned about his comments about the "risks of sedation." I am simply seeking some "second opinions" here, based on your experiences, since my sense is that my vet has an agenda (i.e., hoping I opt for euthanizing if I'm afraid of the $$ costs or risk of surgery). He has very limited experience of April, so easily goes to the idea of euthanizing, since he doesn't see all she is and what she does.

Third, aftercare: what kind of wound is the amputation at the hip? Is it stiches only, not covered by a bandage? Is it a bandage, and if so, how do they attach it? What do you apply daily in terms of anti-bacterials, etc., to care for the incision?

Thanks so much for any insights! I know one of my options is still just to "manage" her chewing on her leg. I have finally succeeded in wrapping her leg with those flexible, stretchy bandages that come in a roll, by myself and without help (she is VERY wild and squirmy, so it's taken a bit for me to master this on my own). So, she now has a secure wrap on it that prevents her from chewing. I'm hoping this means that she can heal enough to not get a systemic infection. Her body so far has seemed to function fine even with this enormous wound on her leg, which has gone all the way into bone. It's amazing that she does so well, but she has survived even worse in the past (her original massive wounds after a predator attack as a tiny baby).

Just FYI--We (vet, I, friends) have tried "cones" several times. It just doesn't work for her. She's so active that it gets caught on things as she leaps around. for the same reason, I also can't keep a skirt of any kind on her, and the constant replacement of these things daily causes her a lot of stress. but the bandaging seems to be working well, as an alternative...

Is there a way that I can post a video here?

[Mel1959]

First, can you find a different vet? I am a little uneasy with the comments he’s making and possible inexperience with sedating a squirrel.

There is a member that has a refuge in Vancouver, Washington that might be able to provide some insight into additional vet options. I am out of town and don’t have access to my notes to provide the refuge phone number. I hope one of the admins can post it here for you.

The sedation that is used for squirrels is isoflurane gas. It is pretty safe if administered by an experienced vet. There are always risks involved with surgery with any vet, but they are minimized with an experienced squirrel vet.

I have never had a squirrel go through that surgery but I hope others that have will speak up.

In order to post a video you have to post it to another source like YouTube and then post the link here.

[CritterMom]

My pleasure - I will PM you the contact information. They are in Washington - Vancouver - so just across the River, but WA has different, less cruel attitudes to both the fox and eastern gray squirrels which are considered to be invasive in Oregon. Make certain you tell him that The Squirrel Board sent you. He is one of us. :grin2

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Update: Soon, I will be taking April in for diagnostic testing to see what the prognosis is for surviving an amputation surgery. So I have a few questions for those of you who have experienced surgery and the procedures leading up to it.

First, the doc seemed to be saying to me that the sedation needed just for the tests (xrays, blood tests, etc.) could be "risky." Can anyone tell me what they have experienced as options for sedation for these procedures, so I can educate myself? I mean, what do they use? I assume that it is different from "general anesthetic," but I don't know the options. I may be paranoid, but I think my vet is trying to track me into a decision to euthanize her, as he brings it up frequently, shaking his head sadly as if April has a low quality of life. She does not have a low quality of life. If I can post a video here (can I?), I can show how amazingly active she is. It's astounding. And, how amazingly affectionate and interactive she is. The vet never sees this, as when he holds her to give meds, she is terrified and seems willing to bite (she trusts me, but not others, except for one of my granddaughter, as she knows her). So these terrifying exams are all he sees of her. I think he has a very narrow view of who she is and how she is doing. I've tried to show him video of her on my phone, but he just seems disinterested. Anyway, I would appreciate any insights about "sedation." What they use, what you've seen in terms of your pet's response / ability to recover from sedation.

Second, our vet seems to feel that she "may not survive the surgery, or even just the anesthetic." (I assume he means "general anesthetic.") Again, I would love to hear people's experience with this. She is strong, energetic...but of course there is no way without testing that I know whether her leg has become infected, whether the infection is systemic, etc. So, I have so far agreed to the x-rays and testing to see if amputation is an option, but am concerned about his comments about the "risks of sedation." I am simply seeking some "second opinions" here, based on your experiences, since my sense is that my vet has an agenda (i.e., hoping I opt for euthanizing if I'm afraid of the $$ costs or risk of surgery). He has very limited experience of April, so easily goes to the idea of euthanizing, since he doesn't see all she is and what she does.


Hello Teyuna:
I was about to post on your thread but elected to send a Private Message to you instead as I just did not feel right putting what I had to say on the open Board. Please read my comments in the PM but let me state with no reservations whatsoever that I am in complete agreement with what Mel has stated in her first sentence; "First, can you find a different vet?"
Regards,
SamtheSquirel

[olorin19]

The sedation that is used for squirrels is isoflurane gas. It is pretty safe if administered by an experienced vet. There are always risks involved with surgery with any vet, but they are minimized with an experienced squirrel vet.


One of my guys Dustin had surgery and the gas was administered by placing him in a small plexiglass box. The vet wisely had me put Dustin into the box, Dustin was so terrified that this was the only time* he ever bit me intentionally. My first attempt to get him into the box ended with Dustin clamped onto my gloved hand between thumb and index finger. (I had on thick gloves so was not injured.)

In any case, please make sure to have suitable gloves, etc.

* Dustin twice had abscessed bite injuries and so was handled by me many, many times for oral antibiotics, wound inspection, etc.

[teyuna]

One of my guys Dustin had surgery and the gas was administered by placing him in a small plexiglass box. The vet wisely had me put Dustin into the box, Dustin was so terrified that this was the only time* he ever bit me intentionally. My first attempt to get him into the box ended with Dustin clamped onto my gloved hand between thumb and index finger. (I had on thick gloves so was not injured.)

In any case, please make sure to have suitable gloves, etc.

* Dustin twice had abscessed bite injuries and so was handled by me many, many times for oral antibiotics, wound inspection, etc.

Thanks for the description of how this works. Is the gas they use for sedation the same as that which they use as a general anesthetic for surgery? Do they intubate during surgery? How do they monitor to be sure that the body is responding safely under anesthesia?

I realize all these technical questions are moot unless I feel confident in the vet in the first place...and I've been losing that confidence with his many discouraging (and implicitly critical) remarks.

[olorin19]

Is the gas they use for sedation the same as that which they use as a general anesthetic for surgery?
Do they intubate during surgery?
How do they monitor to be sure that the body is responding safely under anesthesia?



Sorry, but I do not know the answers to any of these questions.

[teyuna]

Sorry, but I do not know the answers to any of these questions.

Thanks for your reply. :)

[DavidDane]

Have you tried putting her on a treatment of SMZ-TMP antibiotics for a few weeks for the infection? My little guy had a skin infection that caused him to chew it like that, and after 3-5 days on the antibiotics he stopped because it started getting better. I'm asking because he only had a little bite that made him chew and cause an infection. Maybe if you try to treat the infection with SMZ-TMP it will give her the same relief and give the leg a chance to heal.

[teyuna]

Have you tried putting her on a treatment of SMZ-TMP antibiotics for a few weeks for the infection? My little guy had a skin infection that caused him to chew it like that, and after 3-5 days on the antibiotics he stopped because it started getting better. I'm asking because he only had a little bite that made him chew and cause an infection. Maybe if you try to treat the infection with SMZ-TMP it will give her the same relief and give the leg a chance to heal.

Thank you for the suggestion, and for your reply. Others have asked me for an update here, so I'll take the opportunity to do that as well in this reply.

April's reason for chewing is not temporary, so it isn't solvable by fixing the infection. It's her permanent paralysis and the permanent neuropathy that causes her to feel phantom itching or tingling that causes her permanent chewing. Even if by some miracle she could be kept from it long enough for it to actually scab over and heal, she would require a permanent impediment between her mouth and her leg. It's at an awful level, down to the bone, because it has been impossible to keep her in a bandage (her acrobatics cause them to come off or she takes them off). A permanent cone works for some animals, but so far, all the plastic ones we've tried have been unsafe for her antics (the soft fabric ones are not unsafe, but are so flexible that they don't provide much protection). I also can't keep a skirt on her, because of her high level of activity. So that's why amputation has become an option, as a last resort, after trying everything else and failing. When I'm home, each room I go into i take her with me so if the bandage has come off and she starts to chew, I can distract her.

I'm not familiar yet with what SMZ-TMP is, but we just finished a course of antibiotics along with Meloxicam anti-inflammatory to try to get her in better shape and fight infection, preparatory to possible surgery. She also takes Gabapentin for the neuropathy, but it's not doing much (if anything). Yesterday, I took her bandage off to cleanse her wound, and when I tried to reapply it, she wasn't having it and instead just tore away at her newly exposed leg. Removing and reapplying a squirrel's bandage is a two person job! And I'm the only one here! Frantic, I called the vet for an emergency appointment to get help, then canceled when April finally got in the mood again to let me apply the new bandage, but only after blood was literally dripping. (thankfully, she can't feel pain; but ironically, that's the whole problem...).

So, it's desperate now. I was just frantic yesterday, and took her in today for x-rays and blood draws to determine if she is healthy enough for surgery. I don't know the results yet, but I was terrified all last night (couldn't sleep) and all of this morning, because the doc had said, "she might not survive the sedation."

But once home, my little girl immediately was doing her amazing gymnastics for 5 hours! How she does back flips from the side of her cage over her hammocks, I'll never understand. She's a trooper. The vet thinks she is possibly too unhealthy to survive the surgery, but I'm seeing amazing strength and health. Hopefully, the blood tests will prove me right...But the vet said, "she's a prey animal. She feels worse than she appears. She's not healthy." ok. but even when I'm not looking and no other "predators" are around to fool into thinking she'll be tough to catch, she's living it up doing back flips in her private gym.

If he says she'll die from surgery, I don't know what I'll be able to do.

thanks so much for your reply! It helps me to be able to hear from people and learn what they have tried, and just to be able to share the stress of what is going on when they are having problems.

[DavidDane]

Thank you for the suggestion, and for your reply. Others have asked me for an update here, so I'll take the opportunity to do that as well in this reply.

April's reason for chewing is not temporary, so it isn't solvable by fixing the infection. It's her permanent paralysis and the permanent neuropathy that causes her to feel phantom itching or tingling that causes her permanent chewing. Even if by some miracle she could be kept from it long enough for it to actually scab over and heal, she would require a permanent impediment between her mouth and her leg. It's at an awful level, down to the bone, because it has been impossible to keep her in a bandage (her acrobatics cause them to come off or she takes them off). A permanent cone works for some animals, but so far, all the plastic ones we've tried have been unsafe for her antics (the soft fabric ones are not unsafe, but are so flexible that they don't provide much protection). I also can't keep a skirt on her, because of her high level of activity. So that's why amputation has become an option, as a last resort, after trying everything else and failing. When I'm home, each room I go into i take her with me so if the bandage has come off and she starts to chew, I can distract her.

I'm not familiar yet with what SMZ-TMP is, but we just finished a course of antibiotics along with Meloxicam anti-inflammatory to try to get her in better shape and fight infection, preparatory to possible surgery. She also takes Gabapentin for the neuropathy, but it's not doing much (if anything). Yesterday, I took her bandage off to cleanse her wound, and when I tried to reapply it, she wasn't having it and instead just tore away at her newly exposed leg. Removing and reapplying a squirrel's bandage is a two person job! And I'm the only one here! Frantic, I called the vet for an emergency appointment to get help, then canceled when April finally got in the mood again to let me apply the new bandage, but only after blood was literally dripping. (thankfully, she can't feel pain; but ironically, that's the whole problem...).

So, it's desperate now. I was just frantic yesterday, and took her in today for x-rays and blood draws to determine if she is healthy enough for surgery. I don't know the results yet, but I was terrified all last night (couldn't sleep) and all of this morning, because the doc had said, "she might not survive the sedation."

But once home, my little girl immediately was doing her amazing gymnastics for 5 hours! How she does back flips from the side of her cage over her hammocks, I'll never understand. She's a trooper. The vet thinks she is possibly too unhealthy to survive the surgery, but I'm seeing amazing strength and health. Hopefully, the blood tests will prove me right...But the vet said, "she's a prey animal. She feels worse than she appears. She's not healthy." ok. but even when I'm not looking and no other "predators" are around to fool into thinking she'll be tough to catch, she's living it up doing back flips in her private gym.

If he says she'll die from surgery, I don't know what I'll be able to do.

thanks so much for your reply! It helps me to be able to hear from people and learn what they have tried, and just to be able to share the stress of what is going on when they are having problems.

Hey there. I'm really sorry for the late reply, I've had alot going on. There's a lot I want to say in my reply but first I'd like to ask real quick how she's doing? And would it at all be possible for you to set up an appointment to see Dr Emerson in Port Orange, FL for a second opinion? She's really, really good with squirrels and might know of something else to try before amputation. I would at least call them and let them know it's an emergency and ask for her advice. I'm also wondering if the neuropathy will eventually heal, or was in the process of healing since she started to have feeling in it again?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

So, it's desperate now. I was just frantic yesterday, and took her in today for x-rays and blood draws to determine if she is healthy enough for surgery. I don't know the results yet, but I was terrified all last night (couldn't sleep) and all of this morning, because the doc had said, "she might not survive the sedation."

Hi Teyuna:
Please post the lab report and the x-ray films when they become available!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna:
Please post the lab report and the x-ray films when they become available!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks, SamtheSquirrel for checking in with me again! I will definitely provide whatever update I have. It's been 4 days since the procedures. I'm not sure how long to expect lab analysis to take...

What, from your experience, should I expect in terms of this vet's transparency about the report from the lab, once he gets it? I think I will only be comfortable with seeing the report directly, not just having him interpret it to me verbally over the phone, which is what I expect he will do. I remain deeply mistrustful of his bias toward euthanizing (despite her obvious high energy and other signs of great health), so I suspect if the report says she's fit for surgery, he is going to continue to say she's not.

He has also refused to call me back to explain to me (i left a message with reception, twice now) why he refused to allow me an appointment to get assistance with bandaging her torn up leg, which drips blood if she goes at it between the time I get the wrap off, and when I can wrangle her to get a new one on (changing it for purposes of sanitation / to prevent infection). It's a two person job, even for these vets and vet techs. I explained in detail what happens and my fear that April will bleed to death if she cannot be prevented from getting at her leg (cones did not work), if I am not there to staunch the bleeding, if she is unbandaged. The receptionist supposedly described this and relayed his response as "he says it's not appropriate because you need to understand that bandaging is not a permanent solution."

So of course, flummoxed by this absurdity that a person who has already given these people $2K, that I am going to back out of surgery now, I said, "I have to stop the bleeding. I don't want her to bleed to death. I can't understand this response. Please have him call me."

It's been two days now, no call.

I made a list of 60 other vets in the area, and opened their websites to see if they treat "exotics." I will be calling them. But I have little hope so far, since each that I've called has not treated exotics, or if they do, they don't do surgery. I am in such a lose-lose position right now. Little faith in this vet; no help with further prevention of damage to her leg.

[teyuna]

Hey there. I'm really sorry for the late reply, I've had alot going on. There's a lot I want to say in my reply but first I'd like to ask real quick how she's doing? And would it at all be possible for you to set up an appointment to see Dr Emerson in Port Orange, FL for a second opinion? She's really, really good with squirrels and might know of something else to try before amputation. I would at least call them and let them know it's an emergency and ask for her advice. I'm also wondering if the neuropathy will eventually heal, or was in the process of healing since she started to have feeling in it again?

The neuropathy condition unfortunately is not an indicator of the wound healing. It is only an indicator of nerve regeneration. At first, I thought it was wonderful that she was regaining some feeling. But the itching and tingling doesn't get better, and just causes them to mutilate themselves, more and more as the nerves regenerate.

Thanks for the contact. Maybe I can check with Dr. Emerson, since you know her and recommend her, and that's always the best. I've been calling around to try to find another option here in my area, but so far no luck finding someone who deals with this level of problem with exotics.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

What, from your experience, should I expect in terms of this vet's transparency about the report from the lab, once he gets it? I think I will only be comfortable with seeing the report directly, not just having him interpret it to me verbally over the phone, which is what I expect he will do. I remain deeply mistrustful of his bias toward euthanizing (despite her obvious high energy and other signs of great health), so I suspect if the report says she's fit for surgery, he is going to continue to say she's not.

You should expect full and complete "transparency" in regard to the lab report. This (goofball) Vet and any Vet or Physician is ethically and quite probably legally obligated to release the entire lab report to you in a timely manner! With email and other means to instantly transmit documents and information, this should really be immediately. This also applies to any x-ray studies that were performed. He should expeditiously send the digital x-ray films to you via email and assuming that a radiologist read the films, the radiologists interpretation should also be transmitted to you without delay! A conscientious, concerned, caring, understanding, and dedicated professional would in most cases want to discuss the lab tests with you and their implications in regard to diagnoses, potential problems, possible modifications necessary in the tentative treatment plan, identified risks and more possibly before sending the lab report to you but with this guy; I would just get the entire collection of documents and films (if any) without any delay a any discussion can be facilitated in the mean time! If a truly emergent or urgent condition is identified, you should be notified immediately! You do have the right to get April's Lab report, digital x-ray films and their interpretation as soon as each becomes available and the Vet should send it to you by means that would minimize or eliminate and delay such as via email (if that is an option for you).


He has also refused to call me back to explain to me (i left a message with reception, twice now) why he refused to allow me an appointment to get assistance with bandaging her torn up leg, which drips blood if she goes at it between the time I get the wrap off, and when I can wrangle her to get a new one on (changing it for purposes of sanitation / to prevent infection). It's a two person job, even for these vets and vet techs. I explained in detail what happens and my fear that April will bleed to death if she cannot be prevented from getting at her leg (cones did not work), if I am not there to staunch the bleeding, if she is unbandaged. The receptionist supposedly described this and relayed his response as "he says it's not appropriate because you need to understand that bandaging is not a permanent solution."

So of course, flummoxed by this absurdity that a person who has already given these people $2K, that I am going to back out of surgery now, I said, "I have to stop the bleeding. I don't want her to bleed to death. I can't understand this response. Please have him call me."

It's been two days now, no call.

This appears cruel, risky, and nonsensical! It is as if this Vet wants you to suffer and for April to suffer as well and be put at risk for bleeding, infection and further injury; just to make a point about what he feels is necessary and and what he feels cannot become a permanent solution!


I made a list of 60 other vets in the area, and opened their websites to see if they treat "exotics." I will be calling them. But I have little hope so far, since each that I've called has not treated exotics, or if they do, they don't do surgery. I am in such a lose-lose position right now. Little faith in this vet; no help with further prevention of damage to her leg.

Again, I certainly feel that this Vet is not providing what you and April require and by being passive-aggressive and unavailable; he is putting his patient at risk and causing grief and frustration for you! This is very bad practice! I hope you can find another VET ASAP!

I would like to encourage you to persue your search for a new Vet in earnest! Please call the Vet's office tomorrow and demand to have the the full lab report, x-ray films and a radiologists report emailed to you immediately! If they say part of this or all of this is not yet available, I would suggest that you tell them that you are requiring these items to be transmitted to you as soon as each becomes available!

Teyuna, I just don't have a good feeling about this VET!

Please keep us updated!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Mel1959]

:yeahthat:goodpost

Personally, I’m scared for you and April. I would never let a vet with this demeanor perform surgery on my squirrel. Frankly, I’d be concerned he’d “allow” April to die on the table. I’d go to his office if necessary, WITHOUT April, and demand her records and test results. It’s harder to say “no” to someone in person than it is over the phone.

[teyuna]

You should expect full and complete "transparency" in regard to the lab report. This (goofball) Vet and any Vet or Physician is ethically and quite probably legally obligated to release the entire lab report to you in a timely manner! With email and other means to instantly transmit documents and information, this should really be immediately. This also applies to any x-ray studies that were performed. He should expeditiously send the digital x-ray films to you via email and assuming that a radiologist read the films, the radiologists interpretation should also be transmitted to you without delay! A conscientious, concerned, caring, understanding, and dedicated professional would in most cases want to discuss the lab tests with you and their implications in regard to diagnoses, potential problems, possible modifications necessary in the tentative treatment plan, identified risks and more possibly before sending the lab report to you but with this guy; I would just get the entire collection of documents and films (if any) without any delay a any discussion can be facilitated in the mean time! If a truly emergent or urgent condition is identified, you should be notified immediately! You do have the right to get April's Lab report, digital x-ray films and their interpretation as soon as each becomes available and the Vet should send it to you by means that would minimize or eliminate and delay such as via email (if that is an option for you).



This appears cruel, risky, and nonsensical! It is as if this Vet wants you to suffer and for April to suffer as well and be put at risk for bleeding, infection and further injury; just to make a point about what he feels is necessary and and what he feels cannot become a permanent solution!



Again, I certainly feel that this Vet is not providing what you and April require and by being passive-aggressive and unavailable; he is putting his patient at risk and causing grief and frustration for you! This is very bad practice! I hope you can find another VET ASAP!

I would like to encourage you to persue your search for a new Vet in earnest! Please call the Vet's office tomorrow and demand to have the the full lab report, x-ray films and a radiologists report emailed to you immediately! If they say part of this or all of this is not yet available, I would suggest that you tell them that you are requiring these items to be transmitted to you as soon as each becomes available!

Teyuna, I just don't have a good feeling about this VET!

Please keep us updated!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks so much. It really helps me to read your thoughts, as this has all been so shocking to me that I keep saying to myself, "you have to have misinterpreted, he can't really be trying to just let her die."

This from you especially reflects my feelings: "It is as if this Vet wants you to suffer and for April to suffer as well and be put at risk for bleeding, infection and further injury; just to make a point about what he feels is necessary and and what he feels cannot become a permanent solution!"

I thought from the beginning that he didn't like me, because in the first appointment I questioned whether it was correct to assume that she was "in poor health," and I questioned the need for x-rays to "determine whether both legs should be amputated." He said that they needed to look to see if amputation was going to solve "the real problem." I thought, "what? the real problem is that she's paralyzed and chewing on her leg!" I said words to that effect. Some doctors just don't like assertive or inquisitive humans. So yes, I think he is taking something out on me, and on her, because he thinks she's better off dead. the permanent solution he wants is not surgery, it's to euthanize her. He's just waiting me out, and putting her at risk of systemic infection by stalling and stonewalling. This all sounds so sinister, but it's what I'm seeing.

In any case, the lack of professionalism is astounding. Not calling back, not explaining, not following up on the appointments he said he'd follow up on until I called more than twice. I think he's waiting for her to die so he won't have to do the surgery, stalling so she'll die.

So yes, I'm totally committed to trying as hard as I can to find a vet who can do the surgery. It's not legal in my state, so I travel to the one right next to it. It's even a bit "iffy" there, but some vets there do treat squirrels. So far, I've called 16 clinics. Some treat "exotics," but so far, none do surgery. Maybe at least I can get an appointment with one who will be willing to treat and dress her wound, while I continue my search. It all feels so desperate right now.

Meanwhile, she's her happy self. Letting me struggle to unwrap her bandage and putting up with me awkwardly applying another while she tries to do her gymnastics instead. She never bites me. We're friends. But my ability to apply the bandage successfully would get a D+ at best.

[Mel1959]

Have you reached out to the facility that was recommended in Vancouver, WA?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

:yeahthat:goodpost

Personally, I’m scared for you and April. I would never let a vet with this demeanor perform surgery on my squirrel. Frankly, I’d be concerned he’d “allow” April to die on the table. I’d go to his office if necessary, WITHOUT April, and demand her records and test results. It’s harder to say “no” to someone in person than it is over the phone.

Of course Mel is correct and is making the best suggestion as always! I let my false hopes that there was some degree of residual professionalism left in this Vet but most likely not! I still call and make the demands but if the records and x-ray images were not immediately forthcoming, I would suggest doing just what Mel has recommended! I would also suggest taking the biggest person you trust with you for support and to act as a witness. The presence of another person oftentimes will modify what might have been a more resistant or negative response by the Vet had you shown up there by yourself!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

As far as dressing materials, what are you using Teyuna. A suggestion might be to apply a light coat of Clear Bacitracin Ointment on any wounds and then apply a piece of Adaptic which is a thin webbed, non-stick pad that will help keep the entire dressing from sticking. Cover the Adaptic pad with some gauze pads and then wrap it loosely and apply a "mini-sock" to hold it all together. I would recommend against using other antibiotics especially Neosporin or anything that contains Neomycin (as does Neosporin). Of all of the topical antibiotics, Neomycin is the one most likely to to cause a skin reaction which at times can be severe!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[CritterMom]

Also, I wouldn't confine yourself to "exotic" vets. I would start calling vets who have surgical practice and not worry too much about the exotic designation. There is little difference between removing a hind leg from a cat and a squirrel, and it will give you a much larger pool of people to speak to. Given that dogs and cats get themselves into situations fairly frequently that require amputation it is likely they will have WAY more experience than an exotic vet.

Also, a couple points from someone with a lot of experience: Your biggest goal is to make the person who answers the phone your friend as quickly as you can. Make them empathize with you. Tell them you know you aren't supposed to keep wild animals but you just had to because you knew you could give him a good life, and that the proof is that he runs and plays so much it is endangering him by destroying all of his cones, harnesses, etc. Kiss butt. Cry a little. Do NOT go into detail about the first doctor; and absolutely don't bad mouth him to other doctors. The person who answers the phone knows which vet is most likely to help and if you make them your friend they will likely plead your case.

And if you manage to find someone, the day you pick him up, stop someplace and get a basket of muffins or some fancy donuts and bring them for the staff. You may need them again and the sweet person who loves their little squirrel so much and brings them goodies WILL get another appointment. Yes, it is manipulative. It is what makes the world go round. People want to help people they LIKE. Be that person!

[teyuna]

Of course Mel is correct and is making the best suggestion as always! I let my false hopes that there was some degree of residual professionalism left in this Vet but most likely not! I still call and make the demands but if the records and x-ray images were not immediately forthcoming, I would suggest doing just what Mel has recommended! I would also suggest taking the biggest person you trust with you for support and to act as a witness. The presence of another person oftentimes will modify what might have been a more resistant or negative response by the Vet had you shown up there by yourself!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks to both of you for your feedback and suggestions. I do actually have a big person in mind, now that you mention the big escort idea. I think it's a good one. They can assume he's my husband, or something. I'm only 5'3" and 104 lbs, so...well, we all know how that works sometimes...

The stonewalling and stalling has been maddening. If I don't call them, they never call me. Even then, they don't call back.

Today, I called 22 veterinarians in the area. The answer was "no" from all of them. They referred me to vets who had already told me no. It's grim.

[teyuna]

Also, I wouldn't confine yourself to "exotic" vets. I would start calling vets who have surgical practice and not worry too much about the exotic designation. There is little difference between removing a hind leg from a cat and a squirrel, and it will give you a much larger pool of people to speak to. Given that dogs and cats get themselves into situations fairly frequently that require amputation it is likely they will have WAY more experience than an exotic vet.

Also, a couple points from someone with a lot of experience: Your biggest goal is to make the person who answers the phone your friend as quickly as you can. Make them empathize with you. Tell them you know you aren't supposed to keep wild animals but you just had to because you knew you could give him a good life, and that the proof is that he runs and plays so much it is endangering him by destroying all of his cones, harnesses, etc. Kiss butt. Cry a little. Do NOT go into detail about the first doctor; and absolutely don't bad mouth him to other doctors. The person who answers the phone knows which vet is most likely to help and if you make them your friend they will likely plead your case.

And if you manage to find someone, the day you pick him up, stop someplace and get a basket of muffins or some fancy donuts and bring them for the staff. You may need them again and the sweet person who loves their little squirrel so much and brings them goodies WILL get another appointment. Yes, it is manipulative. It is what makes the world go round. People want to help people they LIKE. Be that person!

thanks, so much, CritterMom, for the suggestions. typically, I am "that person" (except for the muffins and donuts, lol!). I wasn't "that person" at every moment with the Doc (with legitimate provocation), but have been with everyone else at the current place, and I am particularly fond of one of the vet techs, who seems to love both me and April. I've been great on the phone with the prospective new vet clinics, if I do say so myself. In general, I never say anything negative to doctors about other doctors, because I know already it puts them on the defensive (as it can any of us).

but unfortunately, I can't get my foot in the door to be whoever I am going to be with any new people. Everyone is nice, helpful, and provides referrals they hope will pan out (none do). I'm striking out after 22 calls today. As you have suggested, I actually have already been calling regular "dog and cat" focused clinics which treat the full range of animals (almost none of them are exclusively exotic); they tell me, "no, we no longer have a vet that treats exotics;" or, they never did. Two of the front desk people working at one of the larger clinics sighed and said, "I have an exotic and can't find good care for them."

I feel pretty hopeless and helpless at this point. I have potentially 36 more on my list to call. I will call them all. But based on your suggestion, I will also ask the phone person, "is there a surgeon on your staff that would be willing to do an amputation on a squirrel," as well as asking if they currently treat squirrels. Some just exclude certain species outright, and say so on their websites, but it's worth asking anyway.

thanks again. I'm done calling for the day, because now, all the clinics have closed. I'll start up again Monday.

The really grim thing is that I may be locked into having the current vet do the surgery, just because there are no other options, and she will eventually get a serious infection that can become systemic, necrotic or septic.

[teyuna]

As far as dressing materials, what are you using Teyuna. A suggestion might be to apply a light coat of Clear Bacitracin Ointment on any wounds and then apply a piece of Adaptic which is a thin webbed, non-stick pad that will help keep the entire dressing from sticking. Cover the Adaptic pad with some gauze pads and then wrap it loosely and apply a "mini-sock" to hold it all together. I would recommend against using other antibiotics especially Neosporin or anything that contains Neomycin (as does Neosporin). Of all of the topical antibiotics, Neomycin is the one most likely to to cause a skin reaction which at times can be severe!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks. I've been using saline and diluted betadine as best I can, but holding her with one hand and doing anything else effectively has been very limited. I've been using that flexible mesh tape called "Vet Wrap Flexible," and it's all I can do (because just one of me) just to wrap that well enough to cover up the gaping wound as quickly as I can. I will order the Adaptic (I just found it on amazon; currently, i just wipe the mangled tissue with moistened gauze, but have not been able to put anything on it very effectively). It's just a barrier, at best, and not even that sometimes.

I've put out as many feelers as I can think of to people who know volunteers who might help me hold her down so I can do a better job than I can do one-handed. I left several messages at "house call vets," and house call vet techs, and none have called back yet. Sadly, I'm really on my own with all this.

Luckily, April never bites me, but she also doesn't lie still enough for me to do anything to effectively care for her wound. The gabapentin in her water is not calming her down at all. I don't know if there is anything else I can get that could make her groggy enough to be more compliant. I asked this vet, and he said no, just as he said no to bandaging her at all. I am in fact disobeying doctor's orders!

Today, I ordered some "Rescue Remedy" based on another thread from years ago here on the squirrel board, as something that could potentially be calming if rubbed on her ears.

Your messages and encouragement really help.

[teyuna]

Have you reached out to the facility that was recommended in Vancouver, WA?

Hi Mel, do you mean the Squirrel Refuge? Yes, I've talked to them several times. They told me they would try to find a volunteer willing to come to me to help me with bandaging. I told them I'm happy to drive her anywhere. so far, no one has turned up.

It's tough where I am located, because we have to be "under the radar." So I can't just put out a call on NextDoor or Facebook.

Right now, I'm hoping that one of the housecall vets gets back to me, but they may just tell me that can't help with a squirrel.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thanks. I've been using saline and diluted betadine as best I can, but holding her with one hand and doing anything else effectively has been very limited. I've been using that flexible mesh tape called "Vet Wrap Flexible," and it's all I can do (because just one of me) just to wrap that well enough to cover up the gaping wound as quickly as I can. I will order the Adaptic (I just found it on amazon; currently, i just wipe the mangled tissue with moistened gauze, but have not been able to put anything on it very effectively). It's just a barrier, at best, and not even that sometimes.

I've put out as many feelers as I can think of to people who know volunteers who might help me hold her down so I can do a better job than I can do one-handed. I left several messages at "house call vets," and house call vet techs, and none have called back yet. Sadly, I'm really on my own with all this.

Luckily, April never bites me, but she also doesn't lie still enough for me to do anything to effectively care for her wound. The gabapentin in her water is not calming her down at all. I don't know if there is anything else I can get that could make her groggy enough to be more compliant. I asked this vet, and he said no, just as he said no to bandaging her at all. I am in fact disobeying doctor's orders!

Today, I ordered some "Rescue Remedy" based on another thread from years ago here on the squirrel board, as something that could potentially be calming if rubbed on her ears.

Your messages and encouragement really help.

Hi Teyuna:
I don't want to add to your distress but from what I just read, it seems that are you giving Gabapentin to April by placing it in her water and letting her get some of the medication with her drinking? If so, this does not provide any definitive dose or dosing for the medication! All medication should be dosed by itself where you will know for certain when and how often your Squirrel receives the medication and how much of the medication she gets at each dosing interval! This is very important! Also, water should always be pure, clean, and available at all times. IF the Gabapentin is being mixed with April's water, please discontinue this immediately and give her back plain, pure water! Also, please let us know what strength Gabapentin you have and the current weight of April preferably in Grams and one of our Admins can dose the Gabapentin for you correctly! Consistent dosing frequency and dose amount is essential to any pharmacologic therapy and correct dosing may in itself help modify April's "messing" with her leg!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Tashahaven]

Sorry I haven’t been active in your thread. I haven’t been on TSB as much with my work schedule lately (no excuse). It is incredibly clear how much you LOVE your baby, and that you care very deeply about little April. Thank you for doing so much for her.

I haven’t seen a lot of success with the cones, so don’t feel bad about them not working. There are a lot of archived threads here about the journey and stories of people caring for squirrels with the same issues. Finding a contraption/wrap or something to do your best to help keep her leg protected and minimize her ability to continue doing damage is the best thing you can do.

Also as StS stated above, dosing the gabapentin directly is of the utmost IMPORTANCE. Gabapentin can be quite the miracle drug when it comes to neuropathy and can definitely help provide a level of sedation/calming (speaking from my own experience with it as a human, and neoropathic pain)

You are most DEFINITELY correct in your gut feeling about this vet! It infuriates me to read how he has treated you and what he has said thus far. What an A**hole. I truly hope you are able to find someone who can help April, and who cares.

I would focus less on a vet who treats “exotics”, and try not to identify her as one. She is from the rodent family. So maybe focus on that instead? There are vets out there who care for family rats, mice, hamsters etc. or as someone else mentioned above, there is not a huge separation between doing this sort of surgery on a small cat vs a squirrel. The fact that you are so committed to finding a solution, and ensuring April has a wonderful quality of life is so hopeful and sweet. Your determination to do the right thing for her and find her the best care is reassuring. She is clearly very loved and that is the most important thing. Your commitment and dedication are undeniable, and your will power will result in successfully finding someone to do what’s best for her! I just know it deep down.

I am surprised the squirrel refuge wasn’t able to assist you by providing referrals to squirrel safe vets. They care for and release hundreds of squirrels at a time. They HAVE TO have multiple vets they work with?

I agree, you are going to need to PHYSICALLY go in to the vets office, in person! Knowing how upset, stressed, and uncomfortable you are, due to how he has treated you up to this point, it will be difficult, but it’s important to take a deep breathe, and put on your fakest smile and begin calmly and composed, only “escalating” your approach slowly. Stay strong, but be assertive. You paid for these tests and have a RIGHT to receive all the results ASAP! This is absolutely ridiculous, disgusting, unprofessional and completely appalling!

Have you reached out to Dr Emerson in Florida? By phone or email? She is the very best of the best. It is possible (maybe? I’m unsure if it would help or not in this situation. But worth a try) if you are able to describe your situation, and the urgency of her condition and the way this vet has treated you so far, they (Dr E) might be willing to reach out to him requesting the results. Some vets respond better to other professionals, to maintain their “professional” reputation? It would also be extremely helpful, regardless of when you find a local vet, to still send the tests and labs and films to Dr E for her opinion. She has consulted (and even treated) MANY squirrels from across the country, and even across the world. She is genuine, and the best. She has helped save COUNTLESS squirrels on TSB. She is very experienced with doing very difficult and complicated surgeries and procedures. Her opinion and insight is priceless.

It is a LONG way from Oregon to Florida, but if you would be willing to make the drive you would NOT regret it. I’ve read of many people on TSB who have made the trip to Florida for their babies. Whatever she decided to do, you would rest ASSURED it was done by the best, in the best way possible, and little April could continue living the amazing life she is living, with you! I hope you make some progress and get some answers and solutions today in your search for a vet. (Although it IS Sunday. So you probably won’t get too far until tomorrow) I will pray for you and April! Just keep loving her and caring for her like you are doing! Stay strong and know we are all here for you!

Lastly….any progress uploading a video to YouTube? I would LOVE to see little Aprils spunk, acrobatics and affectionate loving-ness. Want to put a face and personality to the name!

💝🥰😍😌💕💖💟💗💓💗

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna:
I don't want to add to your distress but from what I just read, it seems that are you giving Gabapentin to April by placing it in her water and letting her get some of the medication with her drinking? If so, this does not provide any definitive dose or dosing for the medication! All medication should be dosed by itself where you will know for certain when and how often your Squirrel receives the medication and how much of the medication she gets at each dosing interval! This is very important! Also, water should always be pure, clean, and available at all times. IF the Gabapentin is being mixed with April's water, please discontinue this immediately and give her back plain, pure water! Also, please let us know what strength Gabapentin you have and the current weight of April preferably in Grams and one of our Admins can dose the Gabapentin for you correctly! Consistent dosing frequency and dose amount is essential to any pharmacologic therapy and correct dosing may in itself help modify April's "messing" with her leg!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks, Sam the Squirrel. It sounds like this is yet another thing for which the vet gave me bad advice? I've done none of these meds under just my own advisement, it's all been what the vet prescribed and instructed.

Specifically, starting mid-May, he began her on a course of antibiotics, plus 0.2 ml orally twice a day of gabapentin, and .04mL of Meloxicam once a day for two weeks. Because I had no one at home who could (or would) help me hold her so I could administer the meds orally, I drove 16 miles round trip twice a day for two weeks so they could put on their thick gloves and do it. After those 14 days, he said to double the dosage of Gabapentin and put it in her water. I had determined that she consistently drinks one ounce per 24 hours, so it seemed accurate according to his instructions to put .8 per ounce per day.

I don't know precisely her weight, because it was only under sedation that she could be weighed, and while they did that during the diagnostic procedure, they didn't tell me what the weight was and it is not noted on the discharge handout they gave me (and they don't return calls when I leave messages or send emails). During the first meeting, they estimated her weight at 1.2 lbs. (I'm guessing her weight is even less than that, just from lifting her myself and comparing that to a lb. of butter...)

The most disturbing thing to me is that her leg is far worse now than it was before I brought her to them. Before, the surface would actually dry up, and while a bone was exposed, it was not yet severed and sticking up as it is now. Her flesh was mangled in only one spot; now it is the full length of the wound, and two toes are gone, and the bleeding is constantly wet. I have no idea why she would get so much worse since seeing the vet, when the meds were supposed to help.

Meanwhile, my only ray of sunshine in all this is April. She eats well, sleeps well, plays well, cuddles well, and seems to have all the energy that she's consistently had. I actually felt reassured after the diagnostic procedure, since the sedation didn't affect her in any negative way, while the vet had said, "she might not survive the sedation." the moment she woke up, she was energetic (if a bit hyper, which i discovered is one thing to expect).

This whole experience has been a nightmare. My worst fears now all center on the wound. I've heard from no volunteers or housecall vets yet who may be able to help me with changing her bandages, and alone, I am doing a terrible job of it. All I'm accomplishing is putting a barrier between her teeth and the wound. I'll soon have the recommended new bandages and the bacitracin. (I've been using saline, betadine, and veterycin, but only sketchily, as she'll allow).

I'm doing the best I can, and the best I can is a long way from anything good.

[teyuna]

Sorry I haven’t been active in your thread. I haven’t been on TSB as much with my work schedule lately (no excuse). It is incredibly clear how much you LOVE your baby, and that you care very deeply about little April. Thank you for doing so much for her.

I haven’t seen a lot of success with the cones, so don’t feel bad about them not working. There are a lot of archived threads here about the journey and stories of people caring for squirrels with the same issues. Finding a contraption/wrap or something to do your best to help keep her leg protected and minimize her ability to continue doing damage is the best thing you can do.

Also as StS stated above, dosing the gabapentin directly is of the utmost IMPORTANCE. Gabapentin can be quite the miracle drug when it comes to neuropathy and can definitely help provide a level of sedation/calming (speaking from my own experience with it as a human, and neoropathic pain)

You are most DEFINITELY correct in your gut feeling about this vet! It infuriates me to read how he has treated you and what he has said thus far. What an A**hole. I truly hope you are able to find someone who can help April, and who cares.

I would focus less on a vet who treats “exotics”, and try not to identify her as one. She is from the rodent family. So maybe focus on that instead? There are vets out there who care for family rats, mice, hamsters etc. or as someone else mentioned above, there is not a huge separation between doing this sort of surgery on a small cat vs a squirrel. The fact that you are so committed to finding a solution, and ensuring April has a wonderful quality of life is so hopeful and sweet. Your determination to do the right thing for her and find her the best care is reassuring. She is clearly very loved and that is the most important thing. Your commitment and dedication are undeniable, and your will power will result in successfully finding someone to do what’s best for her! I just know it deep down.

I am surprised the squirrel refuge wasn’t able to assist you by providing referrals to squirrel safe vets. They care for and release hundreds of squirrels at a time. They HAVE TO have multiple vets they work with?

I agree, you are going to need to PHYSICALLY go in to the vets office, in person! Knowing how upset, stressed, and uncomfortable you are, due to how he has treated you up to this point, it will be difficult, but it’s important to take a deep breathe, and put on your fakest smile and begin calmly and composed, only “escalating” your approach slowly. Stay strong, but be assertive. You paid for these tests and have a RIGHT to receive all the results ASAP! This is absolutely ridiculous, disgusting, unprofessional and completely appalling!

Have you reached out to Dr Emerson in Florida? By phone or email? She is the very best of the best. It is possible (maybe? I’m unsure if it would help or not in this situation. But worth a try) if you are able to describe your situation, and the urgency of her condition and the way this vet has treated you so far, they (Dr E) might be willing to reach out to him requesting the results. Some vets respond better to other professionals, to maintain their “professional” reputation? It would also be extremely helpful, regardless of when you find a local vet, to still send the tests and labs and films to Dr E for her opinion. She has consulted (and even treated) MANY squirrels from across the country, and even across the world. She is genuine, and the best. She has helped save COUNTLESS squirrels on TSB. She is very experienced with doing very difficult and complicated surgeries and procedures. Her opinion and insight is priceless.

It is a LONG way from Oregon to Florida, but if you would be willing to make the drive you would NOT regret it. I’ve read of many people on TSB who have made the trip to Florida for their babies. Whatever she decided to do, you would rest ASSURED it was done by the best, in the best way possible, and little April could continue living the amazing life she is living, with you! I hope you make some progress and get some answers and solutions today in your search for a vet. (Although it IS Sunday. So you probably won’t get too far until tomorrow) I will pray for you and April! Just keep loving her and caring for her like you are doing! Stay strong and know we are all here for you!

Lastly….any progress uploading a video to YouTube? I would LOVE to see little Aprils spunk, acrobatics and affectionate loving-ness. Want to put a face and personality to the name!

💝🥰😍😌💕💖💟💗💓💗

Thank you so much for your detailed and caring reply.

Can you send me contact info for Dr. Emerson? I'm assuming I could do a zoom call at least, or even a telephone appointment? My car likely would not get that far, but a person on Facebook months ago sent me the name of a vet in Idaho. Still a long trip, but I think my car might survive that. I plan to follow up on that lead if i can still find it, on Monday. I'll have to buy a car-appropriate cage so she won't have to be in a tiny carrier for so long.

About the Squirrel Refuge, they lost the one vet they had helping them, on which they had relied for everything, as she moved to Texas. I will call them again, though, and ask who helps them with things other than surgery.

From all my research so far (called 22 places yesterday) it appears that this vet that is causing me so much stress is the ONLY one that is doing these surgeries. I have at least 36 more to call, but since I prioritized them based on their descriptions of serving exotics as one of their specialties, the rest of the list may be even more discouraging. They all emphasized that none of their vets does surgeries. I could, however, take her to a vet that simply sees exotics, and get some "second opinions" on meds, etc. short of actual surgery.

But I am feeling certain at this point that surgery is the only option that will save her life.

About meds: I simply can't give them orally without help. I am continuing my search for a helper until I find one. I hope it's in time.

Thanks again for your help and support. I'm praying one of these house call vets or vet techs will call me back. I'm praying that the reason they're not is just because it's the weekend.

I don't yet know how to post a video to YouTube, but I'll try to figure it out. In the meantime, I'll try to insert at last a still picture here. (I did it once, but right now it does not appear to be working when i click on "attachments," and then "upload." nothing happens, it just gets stuck).

[CritterMom]

OK, first things first. Your squirrel needs to be put back on the gabapentin. Dosing in water requires the animal to drink the same amount of water with and without nasty tasting medicine in it. That ain't happening - they mostly stop drinking and start to dehydrate themselves. As it needs to be given twice per day, you need to be able to restrain her to dose, as well as to deal with the legs.

Go to a fabric or craft store and buy some felt - the heaviest you can find. Not a little square - you are going to make a poncho, so I would think at least 30-36 inches square. Pick up some velcro, too.

Cut a circle approximately 1.5 inches in diameter in the center of your square. Then cut one slit about 1.5 inches long extending out from the circle. Attach your velcro to this "flap" you have made with the cut - one side of the velcro will go on the front of one flap and the other on the back of the other flap. Now, you can close off that flap and keep it closed with the velcro. It will go over the squirrel's head - the circle is about the diameter of a squirrel's neck but the slit you cut will allow you to pull it easily over the head, and the velcro on the flaps will allow you to close it so it is snug but not chokingly tight around the neck. Gather the edges of the fabric - for this purpose since she is only going to be restrained for a moment to pop the syringe in the mouth and dose her - you can just put a clip on it so it holds together for a couple moments. You now have a squirrel in a felt "bag" with just the head sticking out.

To dress and bandage her legs, You want to make her a little hood! Sew a couple pieces of the felt to make a little bag that will go over her head with a velcro tab on it that you can attach to the "poncho." Now you have a squirrel in a bag that can't easily bite you. The bottom of the poncho is open so you can access the legs.

Without help, you need some extra hands...or feet. How limber are you? When I have dosed squirrels, I always use my bed and sometimes even a bed pillow to help. They are soft and have a lot of give, so you can, um, mash your squirrel down into them to hold them in place without injuring them. Get them where you need and put both of your bare or stocking feet over the back to hold her down against the pillow, which leaves your hands a little freer to dose.

This wound is going to get worse and worse if she is allowed to keep chewing it. That needs to be stopped. Hopefully, getting the full dose of gabapentin will decrease or eliminate the sensations she is experiencing, but for now, and possibly forever, she needs to be physically prevented from getting to her legs.

I know you rejected it as not working, but the idea of a "skute" is perfect. I do not know how our member assembled hers and I have never made one, but I do know that several people on here have used them with great success, so apparently she has found some secret to assembling it that keeps it on them. I would be happy to try to reach out to her and see if she can help you there if you like.

If the gabapentin helps and you can successfully make a skute for her (they also have the benefit of preventing drag sores which are the bane of little paraplegic squirrels), you may not NEED to amputate her leg, and certainly not on an emergency basis like you have now. You will need to have access to gabapentin though.

Speaking of which, can you give us any info on the gabapentin you have for her? Is there any info on the bottle? Looking for strength info.

[teyuna]

OK, first things first. Your squirrel needs to be put back on the gabapentin. Dosing in water requires the animal to drink the same amount of water with and without nasty tasting medicine in it. That ain't happening - they mostly stop drinking and start to dehydrate themselves. As it needs to be given twice per day, you need to be able to restrain her to dose, as well as to deal with the legs.

Go to a fabric or craft store and buy some felt - the heaviest you can find. Not a little square - you are going to make a poncho, so I would think at least 30-36 inches square. Pick up some velcro, too.

Cut a circle approximately 1.5 inches in diameter in the center of your square. Then cut one slit about 1.5 inches long extending out from the circle. Attach your velcro to this "flap" you have made with the cut - one side of the velcro will go on the front of one flap and the other on the back of the other flap. Now, you can close off that flap and keep it closed with the velcro. It will go over the squirrel's head - the circle is about the diameter of a squirrel's neck but the slit you cut will allow you to pull it easily over the head, and the velcro on the flaps will allow you to close it so it is snug but not chokingly tight around the neck. Gather the edges of the fabric - for this purpose since she is only going to be restrained for a moment to pop the syringe in the mouth and dose her - you can just put a clip on it so it holds together for a couple moments. You now have a squirrel in a felt "bag" with just the head sticking out.

To dress and bandage her legs, You want to make her a little hood! Sew a couple pieces of the felt to make a little bag that will go over her head with a velcro tab on it that you can attach to the "poncho." Now you have a squirrel in a bag that can't easily bite you. The bottom of the poncho is open so you can access the legs.

Without help, you need some extra hands...or feet. How limber are you? When I have dosed squirrels, I always use my bed and sometimes even a bed pillow to help. They are soft and have a lot of give, so you can, um, mash your squirrel down into them to hold them in place without injuring them. Get them where you need and put both of your bare or stocking feet over the back to hold her down against the pillow, which leaves your hands a little freer to dose.

This wound is going to get worse and worse if she is allowed to keep chewing it. That needs to be stopped. Hopefully, getting the full dose of gabapentin will decrease or eliminate the sensations she is experiencing, but for now, and possibly forever, she needs to be physically prevented from getting to her legs.

I know you rejected it as not working, but the idea of a "skute" is perfect. I do not know how our member assembled hers and I have never made one, but I do know that several people on here have used them with great success, so apparently she has found some secret to assembling it that keeps it on them. I would be happy to try to reach out to her and see if she can help you there if you like.

If the gabapentin helps and you can successfully make a skute for her (they also have the benefit of preventing drag sores which are the bane of little paraplegic squirrels), you may not NEED to amputate her leg, and certainly not on an emergency basis like you have now. You will need to have access to gabapentin though.

Speaking of which, can you give us any info on the gabapentin you have for her? Is there any info on the bottle? Looking for strength info.

Hi again Critter Mom,
Yes, I do have Gabapentin, and I have access to it through vets other than the one we've been seeing, but right now, I have a good supply of it in the refrigerator. In an earlier message on this thread, typed in the precise info on what she was prescribed. I'll cut and paste it here:
.
..starting mid-May, he (the vet) began her on a course of antibiotics, plus 0.2 ml orally twice a day of gabapentin, and .04mL of Meloxicam once a day for two weeks. Because I had no one at home who could (or would) help me hold her so I could administer the meds orally, I drove 16 miles round trip twice a day for two weeks so they could put on their thick gloves and do it. After those 14 days, he said to double the dosage of Gabapentin and put it in her water. I had already determined that she consistently drinks one ounce per 24 hours, so it seemed accurate according to his instructions to put .8 mL per ounce per day. (she has continued her drinking pace of 1 ounce per day, despite the taste).
They assigned this dose based on a weight of 1.2 lbs.

I know in my heart of hearts that this is an emergency. I know that my only choices are to find someone other than this doc to do the surgery, or to have him do the surgery because there are no other options (which terrifies me, because I know he wants to give up on her). In the meantime, I need someone to help me. I can actually wrangle a bandage on her, and it stays on, but I'm not able to do it well, which worries me terribly. I put an ad in Craigslist today to hire "a vet tech or a volunteer caregiver for animals," who can come by once a day to help me do meds and wound care. There are probably better places to put an ad like this, but so far, I don't know of them. there is not a veterinary school in this area, but there is one about 200 miles away. I will call them tomorrow and see if they have students in my local area or if they have some kind of community page where I can post my ad.

Thanks for your help and encouragement. I'm working on a cape for her, which might help me wrangle her (or help me and a co-conspirator wrangle her).

(I've tried to post a picture of her bandage, but it just won't post)

[CritterMom]

Hi again Critter Mom,
Yes, I do have Gabapentin, and I have access to it through vets other than the one we've been seeing, but right now, I have a good supply of it in the refrigerator. In an earlier message on this thread, typed in the precise info on what she was prescribed. I'll cut and paste it here:
.
..starting mid-May, he (the vet) began her on a course of antibiotics, plus 0.2 ml orally twice a day of gabapentin, and .04mL of Meloxicam once a day for two weeks. Because I had no one at home who could (or would) help me hold her so I could administer the meds orally, I drove 16 miles round trip twice a day for two weeks so they could put on their thick gloves and do it. After those 14 days, he said to double the dosage of Gabapentin and put it in her water. I had already determined that she consistently drinks one ounce per 24 hours, so it seemed accurate according to his instructions to put .8 mL per ounce per day. (she has continued her drinking pace of 1 ounce per day, despite the taste).
They assigned this dose based on a weight of 1.2 lbs.

I know in my heart of hearts that this is an emergency. I know that my only choices are to find someone other than this doc to do the surgery, or to have him do the surgery because there are no other options (which terrifies me, because I know he wants to give up on her). In the meantime, I need someone to help me. I can actually wrangle a bandage on her, and it stays on, but I'm not able to do it well, which worries me terribly. I put an ad in Craigslist today to hire "a vet tech or a volunteer caregiver for animals," who can come by once a day to help me do meds and wound care. There are probably better places to put an ad like this, but so far, I don't know of them. there is not a veterinary school in this area, but there is one about 200 miles away. I will call them tomorrow and see if they have students in my local area or if they have some kind of community page where I can post my ad.

Thanks for your help and encouragement. I'm working on a cape for her, which might help me wrangle her (or help me and a co-conspirator wrangle her).

(I've tried to post a picture of her bandage, but it just won't post)

The info you posted does not tell us what the strength of the gabapentin is. If we have that info, and the weight you posted (1.2 lbs) we can reverse calculate to see what dose he is prescribing, and whether it is lower or higher than we normally suggest.

Is what you have a liquid? I think it is. Is it sweet flavored? Do you know if the vet mixes it up or if it is already mixed and he just pours some in a smaller container for you? Is there any info besides the dose amount on the bottle?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you CritterMom for you help and suggestions! Thank you Teyuna for you love, concern and caring for little April! I just got home from work and caught up on April's thread. Teyuna, I do agree with you that this is verging on an emergency. You mentioned that there is bone exposed and this, among other issues certainly needs to be addressed ASAP. I wish we all had a better opinion of your Vet but unfortunately that is as it is! Hopefully your "calling around" will pay off tomorrow and you will be able to find new qualified and conscientious professional help. Also, please try to obtain the lab reports and digital copies of the x-ray films and if you are willing, post them in this thread.

[teyuna]

The info you posted does not tell us what the strength of the gabapentin is. If we have that info, and the weight you posted (1.2 lbs) we can reverse calculate to see what dose he is prescribing, and whether it is lower or higher than we normally suggest.

Is what you have a liquid? I think it is. Is it sweet flavored? Do you know if the vet mixes it up or if it is already mixed and he just pours some in a smaller container for you? Is there any info besides the dose amount on the bottle?

Thanks for checking against your understanding of the dosages.
Yes, it is a liquid. I see no indication that it is flavored in any way. I don't see anything that would inform me how he prepares it, it's just in a small, unmarked plastic bottle, into which I dip the syringe to get the right metered amount.

I'll enter here everything that is on the bottle:
Weight: 1.25 lbs.
Gabapentin 250 mg/5 ml sol.
Give 0.2 mL twice a day (every 12 hours) for added pain control and sedation.

When they stopped administering it right at the clinic and we transitioned to me putting it in her water instead, he told me to double the daily dose. So. .8 mL per day in one ounce, assuming that she is drinking one ounce per day, which so far, she has continued to do consistently. I've been surprised that the taste doesn't seem to bother her. When she drinks, she drinks for a long time (that's how she's always been; does her acrobatics, and then drinks water enthusiastically).

During the last appointment I had with The Vet, he said something about how different animals respond to gabapentin differently, even within the same species, and said that included cats and dogs. This was in the context of me asking him if he knew of any other sedatives he could prescribe that might calm her down enough for me to handle her to bandage her successfully (since it appeared she was not sedated at all by the gabapentin), and before he told his receptionist to tell me that he "doesn't recommend a bandage because it's not a permanent solution." (such a non sequitur! I find it absolutely maddening when medical people and other unquestionable "authorities" get away with saying things that follow logically from nothing, and we are supposed to just nod and follow along).

[teyuna]

Thank you CritterMom for you help and suggestions! Thank you Teyuna for you love, concern and caring for little April! I just got home from work and caught up on April's thread. Teyuna, I do agree with you that this is verging on an emergency. You mentioned that there is bone exposed and this, among other issues certainly needs to be addressed ASAP. I wish we all had a better opinion of your Vet but unfortunately that is as it is! Hopefully your "calling around" will pay off tomorrow and you will be able to find new qualified and conscientious professional help. Also, please try to obtain the lab reports and digital copies of the x-ray films and if you are willing, post them in this thread.

Yes, I'm going to continue calling everyone on my list (at least 40 more) tomorrow. After that, I"ll try a doctor in Idaho that someone referred me to, long ago. I'm willing to drive hundreds of miles to get her a solution.

but I can't get anywhere if I don't get daily help with her now. I'm very afraid of her health being undermined so she can't be deemed healthy enough to survive surgery. It sounds like a sinister interpretation, but that's what I am concluding that all this stalling and unresponsiveness on the part of this vet is really intended to do. I'm resolved to call his office on Monday to ask, "when can you email to me a copy of the lab report and can we set an appointment as soon as possible to discuss it and schedule the surgery?" If I don't call his bluff, I doubt if he'll contact me, but instead he'll just wait it out thinking the stress will wear me down and I'll fold and say, "ok, let's just euthanize her!" I suspect his interpretation of the results will be that she won't survive surgery. I'll tell him I need to have a copy sent by the lab directly to me and to the next vet I see, so that I can "seek another opinion," and I'll remind him that he told me to do exactly that when I objected to his (unproven) conclusion that she would "not survive the anesthesia."

It is the exact same anesthesia they used for her diagnostic procedures, and she survived it like a champ.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

How are things going Teyuna?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[teyuna]

How are things going Teyuna?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks for checking in.

Things are not going well. The doctor sent me the radiology report. Long story short, his conclusion is that she is "high risk" for surgery (see quote below). The blood tests have not come back to him yet, but he wrote to me that after he gets those, we'll discuss again.

"
**At this time we are still waiting for blood panel results to be finalized. Based on this report alone, Alice [notice he gets her name wrong] is not a good candidate for surgery. There are multiple areas of spinal comperssion, potential mass like efffect in the abdomen, and likely cardiac disease (enlarged heart with potential valvular disease).


"***The blood panel results will give us more insight into the overall internal health status, however, the radiographs do confirm my suspicion for a high risk surgical candidate. It is stil at your discretion if you would like to proceed with surgery or not once we get blood panel results back."

I wrote back that I want to go ahead with surgery, but that I want to support her health first (which he has been unwilling or incapable of doing so far!).
After summarizing what I felt I understand from the report and asking a questions about references to her internal organs, I wrote:

"I've come this far with her, providing her with tender care, saving her life, trying to give her the perfect diet, loving her and playing with her every day. I want to understand what can be done to improve her health and weight to better prepare her for eventual surgery, since she is at higher risk for it at present. In any case, I know I want to go forward with surgery. Can we make an appointment as soon as possible to discuss a plan of care?"

I also attached the photos of her original injury to the email I sent him, because it pissed me off that both the report and this doc proceeded without acknowledging even once that her extensive injuries and resulting "abnormalities" were the result of a predator attack, undoubtedly while she was still in the nest--the only reference to cause was possible poor diet (she has not had a poor diet). I attached the photos of her as a six week old because I wanted him to see the enormity of what she has survived. When I sent him videos of her acrobatics to show him how well she has thrived in the past three years, he didn't even look at them.

Tomorrow, I will call Dr. Emerson in Florida and ask to schedule a telehealth appointment (I'm hoping they do this), and will send her the radiology report, and hope that I can discuss this with her soon.

I have been searching, searching, searching for someone who can help me keep April's leg from getting worse and becoming septic, undermining her health even further. This doctor's refusal to help me with this seems utterly unethical and cruel. His "explanation" for not wrapping her constantly bleeding wound was nonsensical and maddening. The moment i take off the bandage to replace it with another one, she lunges straight for the blood, and it immediately begins pooling up. I have to struggle with her to keep her away from it, telling her "no!" (right? try telling a squirrel "no") and pushing her face away while I try at the same time to wrap her limb. Amazingly--just because she loves me, I guess--she never bites me no matter how much I struggle with her on this. She won't even allow me time to clean the wound, which makes me feel heartsick.

I've run ads for help, to hire someone. I've called a dozen housecall vet services and pet sitters--they don't come out for "small animals," only dogs and cats. I've posted everywhere I know of asking if people know anyone who is comfortable handling animals who can help me. But it truly stresses April to have anyone (someone she thinks is a "predator") doing this other than or in addition to me, so in that sense at least, it's better for her that it's just me...

I've run out of options. All I can do is try to switch to another vet who will create some kind of plan with me for rehabilitation of April's health, and then support it. I have now called 30 veterinarian offices, and there are none that do surgery on squirrels. I can for now only conclude that this doctor is the only option I have for surgery. And he is no option at all for anything else but euthanasia.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I just want to help her, and except for all of you, I'm all alone in this.

[Chirps]

Not helpful, but a wave of petty snark came over me when reading that he got her name wrong. Maybe he has another patient named Alice, and the "information" he thinks he's looking at is for the WRONG PATIENT???

Also not helpful, but I am furious on your and April's behalf. How dare this person play God like this? He is unworthy of his degree. Also mindblown that so many people out there call themselves vets but DON'T DO SURGERY??? WTF???

Where are all the James Herriot wannabes? He would have given it a go to help April, because that's what a vet's SUPPOSED to do.

[teyuna]

Not helpful, but a wave of petty snark came over me when reading that he got her name wrong. Maybe he has another patient named Alice, and the "information" he thinks he's looking at is for the WRONG PATIENT???

Also not helpful, but I am furious on your and April's behalf. How dare this person play God like this? He is unworthy of his degree. Also mindblown that so many people out there call themselves vets but DON'T DO SURGERY??? WTF???

Where are all the James Herriot wannabes? He would have given it a go to help April, because that's what a vet's SUPPOSED to do.

Exactly. They are supposed to provide compassionate and supportive care to build health, not undermine the health by neglect and unresponsiveness, so that she declines further. If she dies in surgery, he can say, "well I warned you she was high risk," while never knowing or caring that he contributed to her declining health by refusing to provide supportive care to her gaping, bleeding wound, as (in his words) "bandaging is not a permanent solution." Bleeding to death--that would be a permanent solution, and that is what could happen with no barrier.

Last night, I unwrapped the flexible tape covering her wound. She went for it with her licking and chewing immediately, so all i could do was re-wrap it as quickly as possible. This is not "treatment," it's just damage control, and not even effective damage control.

thank you, Chirps, for sharing your thoughts. It helps to hear from all of you.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thanks for checking in.

Things are not going well. The doctor sent me the radiology report. Long story short, his conclusion is that she is "high risk" for surgery (see quote below). The blood tests have not come back to him yet, but he wrote to me that after he gets those, we'll discuss again.

"
**At this time we are still waiting for blood panel results to be finalized. Based on this report alone, Alice [notice he gets her name wrong] is not a good candidate for surgery. There are multiple areas of spinal comperssion, potential mass like efffect in the abdomen, and likely cardiac disease (enlarged heart with potential valvular disease).


"***The blood panel results will give us more insight into the overall internal health status, however, the radiographs do confirm my suspicion for a high risk surgical candidate. It is stil at your discretion if you would like to proceed with surgery or not once we get blood panel results back."

I wrote back that I want to go ahead with surgery, but that I want to support her health first (which he has been unwilling or incapable of doing so far!).
After summarizing what I felt I understand from the report and asking a questions about references to her internal organs, I wrote:

"I've come this far with her, providing her with tender care, saving her life, trying to give her the perfect diet, loving her and playing with her every day. I want to understand what can be done to improve her health and weight to better prepare her for eventual surgery, since she is at higher risk for it at present. In any case, I know I want to go forward with surgery. Can we make an appointment as soon as possible to discuss a plan of care?"

I also attached the photos of her original injury to the email I sent him, because it pissed me off that both the report and this doc proceeded without acknowledging even once that her extensive injuries and resulting "abnormalities" were the result of a predator attack, undoubtedly while she was still in the nest--the only reference to cause was possible poor diet (she has not had a poor diet). I attached the photos of her as a six week old because I wanted him to see the enormity of what she has survived. When I sent him videos of her acrobatics to show him how well she has thrived in the past three years, he didn't even look at them.

Tomorrow, I will call Dr. Emerson in Florida and ask to schedule a telehealth appointment (I'm hoping they do this), and will send her the radiology report, and hope that I can discuss this with her soon.

I have been searching, searching, searching for someone who can help me keep April's leg from getting worse and becoming septic, undermining her health even further. This doctor's refusal to help me with this seems utterly unethical and cruel. His "explanation" for not wrapping her constantly bleeding wound was nonsensical and maddening. The moment i take off the bandage to replace it with another one, she lunges straight for the blood, and it immediately begins pooling up. I have to struggle with her to keep her away from it, telling her "no!" (right? try telling a squirrel "no") and pushing her face away while I try at the same time to wrap her limb. Amazingly--just because she loves me, I guess--she never bites me no matter how much I struggle with her on this. She won't even allow me time to clean the wound, which makes me feel heartsick.

I've run ads for help, to hire someone. I've called a dozen housecall vet services and pet sitters--they don't come out for "small animals," only dogs and cats. I've posted everywhere I know of asking if people know anyone who is comfortable handling animals who can help me. But it truly stresses April to have anyone (someone she thinks is a "predator") doing this other than or in addition to me, so in that sense at least, it's better for her that it's just me...

I've run out of options. All I can do is try to switch to another vet who will create some kind of plan with me for rehabilitation of April's health, and then support it. I have now called 30 veterinarian offices, and there are none that do surgery on squirrels. I can for now only conclude that this doctor is the only option I have for surgery. And he is no option at all for anything else but euthanasia.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I just want to help her, and except for all of you, I'm all alone in this.

Hi Teyuna:
Were you able to contact Dr. E or have any success with locating another Vet? I am at work but will get back with some other comments when I return home or get an opportunity while at work.

I have no less concerns about this Vet now that you have his comments on the radiographs which are; "There are multiple areas of spinal compression, potential mass like effect in the abdomen, and likely cardiac disease (enlarged heart with potential valvular disease)." First of all, why would the so-called areas of 'spinal compression' be an issue in this surgery as what needs to be done is an amputation. There was never any discussion or expectation (as far as I see in your thread) of enhancing neurologic functionality so even if there is 'spinal compression' why would this be an issue. April apparently needs an amputation to control wound risk and maximize what functionality she does have which is really quite a bit!

The 'potential mass effect' in the abdomen that he mentioned based upon the films is another absurdity and just ominous sounding words without any definition! This needs to be explained. The 'enlarged heart with potential valvular disease' base NOT upon determining whether or not April does have an enlarged heart or valvular disease (usually with an ultrasound); the Vet is basing this upon the heart shadow he sees on the x-ray films that to him appears enlarged. My question would be enlarged in comparison to what! The "heart shadow on a Squirrel's chest x-ray usually appears larger that it may be expected because of the relative size of the relatively narrow width of the chest which makes even a normal heart shadow appear larger than expected if not familiar with small rodent chest radiography! I'm of course, not a Vet or a radiologist and I certainly cannot rule-out any heart disease in April; I am concerned that this "assessment" may not re accurate as the normally larger than expected heart shadow of a Squirrel has suggested heart disease for others and this has not been the case.

Were you able to get the x-ray films in a digital form and do you know have the lab reports? If so, please post this in your thread.

Again, I have a high level of distrust about this Vet!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna:
Were you able to contact Dr. E or have any success with locating another Vet? I am at work but will get back with some other comments when I return home or get an opportunity while at work.

I have no less concerns about this Vet now that you have his comments on the radiographs which are; "There are multiple areas of spinal compression, potential mass like effect in the abdomen, and likely cardiac disease (enlarged heart with potential valvular disease)." First of all, why would the so-called areas of 'spinal compression' be an issue in this surgery as what needs to be done is an amputation. There was never any discussion or expectation (as far as I see in your thread) of enhancing neurologic functionality so even if there is 'spinal compression' why would this be an issue. April apparently needs an amputation to control wound risk and maximize what functionality she does have which is really quite a bit!

The 'potential mass effect' in the abdomen that he mentioned based upon the films is another absurdity and just ominous sounding words without any definition! This needs to be explained. The 'enlarged heart with potential valvular disease' base NOT upon determining whether or not April does have an enlarged heart or valvular disease (usually with an ultrasound); the Vet is basing this upon the heart shadow he sees on the x-ray films that to him appears enlarged. My question would be enlarged in comparison to what! The "heart shadow on a Squirrel's chest x-ray usually appears larger that it may be expected because of the relative size of the relatively narrow width of the chest which makes even a normal heart shadow appear larger than expected if not familiar with small rodent chest radiography! I'm of course, not a Vet or a radiologist and I certainly cannot rule-out any heart disease in April; I am concerned that this "assessment" may not re accurate as the normally larger than expected heart shadow of a Squirrel has suggested heart disease for others and this has not been the case.

Were you able to get the x-ray films in a digital form and do you know have the lab reports? If so, please post this in your thread.

Again, I have a high level of distrust about this Vet!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I am so grateful to you, SamtheSquirrel, for your intelligent, detailed, informed comments and questions. Just intuitively (i.e., non-informed by data or knowledge), I was asking myself, "what does scoliosis and kyphosis have to do with removing her leg at the hip joint?" Not to assert that it doesn't, but just to find it absolutely not obvious what relationship it has, which he SHOULD have explained. I also thought, "what does the 'mass' imply?" The trauma she experienced as an infant had resulted, among other things, in a huge swelling on the left side of her abdomen. I assumed internal bleeding, and the swelling went down as her enormous abscess resolved over my two months of care for her (two hours a day while I tended to her constantly draining abscess, removing exudate, cleansing, anti-bacterial, etc.). Perhaps there is a connection between this early swelling and the "mass." But until the past few days, her energy level was wonderful, great appetite, affectionate and playful. More on this below, but she has only worsened under this vet's "care."

I am going to call Dr. Emerson's office today for an appointment and will send them the radiology report (I don't have the blood panel yet). Yesterday, I didn't have the time, because I had managed to contact an old friend who has been a veterinarian for 30 years and was on the phone with her for hours, then on a mission to get the stuff she recommended. Among conventional treatments, my vet friend uses arnica, hypericum and calendula for neurology and pain, particularly when gabapentin does not seem to be helping (i can confirm that it does not seem to be helping). I got those three things at the store yesterday. She said to grind up and dissolve in water, and it won't affect the taste of the water. She also wrote me a prescription for "Jin Tang Golden Yellow," a topical powder to apply to the wound (once I have help for doing that).

Yesterday, I called to follow up on the email I had sent (which I referenced in my last message to the board). The phone person put me on hold for 15 minutes, and when she finally talked to me (I had to hang up and call again to get through), she said she'd ask the doctor about my request for an appointment to tend to April's chronic wound. Eight hours later, no call. I called back. She repeated that the vet would call me as soon as he "had time." I asked if she could predict when that might be, would it be within the next 24 hours? Tensely, she told me that "only this morning did you send that message, he's been in surgery, we have not been able to connect with him to ask about April." I was too nonplussed by this to respond that I had been calling and emailing for an appointment for a week already.

It's been hard to sleep through the night, and I've lost weight (not since the 8th grade have I weighed only 101 lbs). Every time I think of this vet, words like "cruel," and "ghoul" come into my brain. I think he is painting me into a corner with deliberate neglect, to make his ugly point that April shouldn't continue to live. He contradicts everything I say about her energy level, her appetite and all else. It's unethical and it's cruel to neglect an open wound and rationalize it with the non-sequitur, "bandaging is inappropriate at this time because it is not a permanent solution." (when is a bandage ever anything other than temporary??)

The only reason I have continued with this vet is because he is (based on my 30 calls to other vet clinics) the only vet who does amputation surgery within 50 miles of me (I'd happily travel further, but finding them--if they exist--is going to take even more time). For now, I've decided to focus only on building April's health, and to stop contacting this vet at all about it. It's just too stressful to try to persuade him to do the right thing. He's letting her wound fester. It's outrageous. I've paid $2K so far for him to HELP me and help her; in the past two weeks he's done the opposite by refusing to set an appointment and telling me not to bandage her wound, leaving her open to the possibility of bleeding to death.

Besides my conversation yesterday with my vet friend, my other piece of good news that I hope will continue to be good news, is that a friend within one of my rescue organizations was able to locate a friend of hers with animal experience and wound experience, who may be able to help me with April's wound care--specifically to hold her while I work on the wound and wound dressing, and to apply her own experience to the approaches and timing. We've been corresponding by email since yesterday, and she sounds wonderful. She is maybe ten miles away, in an adjoining town. I don't know how often April's bandaging will need to be changed, and how often she will be able to come, but this is the best news I've had and it gives me the option of building April's healing and health, instead of relying only on this Distorted Doc to help April.

Every year during the winter months, April does her semi-hibernation / torpor thing, and gains quite a bit of weight. I'm thinking that the best time to do surgery might be at the height of her weight gain, maybe February.

I have a question about her water, which we've touched on before--the concern that she might get dehydrated. does it make sense to provide for her a bottle of Pedialyte in her cage, in addition to regular water? I put one in yesterday, and she likes it. Is there any downside to this?

Thanks for all your help!!! I want to attach the radiology report; I'll have to cut and paste it from the email (the vet didn't send it as an attachment), and change it to a word doc, and then try to attach here. I think i need some advice on how to attach, though. I've been clicking on the icon that leads to "file upload manager," and I can't get it to work, so far. I'll try again now.

I've experienced some emotional relief as a result of having decided I will stop calling the vet's office entirely. I can't imagine he will ever call me (since he never has), so I will just focus now on her wound care.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience and insights with me! <3

~Teyuna

[Mel1959]

I know StS has been of great help to you and I don’t know the whole history of your story. I am posting here in reference to a couple of questions you have. Regarding the pedialyte, you could do as you suggested by placing a bottle of it in there in addition to some water, but pedialyte should only be given for 24 hours because of the sodium content. So after 24 hours you should remove it and maybe offer it again later. You could try sweetening her water and see if that will encourage her to drink.

Also you can offer Ensure and see if she’ll drink it out of a shallow bowl. It has some nutritional content in addition to being a liquid. The pecan and vanilla flavors are usually a hit.

I think connecting with Dr. E is your very best option. You have been dealing with this clown of a vet long enough. I know this is a huge inconvenience based on your location, so I wanted to offer that if you can somehow make the trip to see Dr. E, you are welcome to stay with my husband and myself for the duration of your visit. We have a spare room as our kids are grown and gone. I’m located a little more than an hour south of Dr. E’s office but it’s a very easy drive to get there from here. If you think you’re interested I’ll send you my address and phone number in a private message. :grin2

I believe Dr. E is only working on Monday, Tuesday and Fridays…and maybe some Saturdays…so she books up quickly. Many times she will work squirrels in because she knows the need for them to be seen.

[teyuna]

I know StS has been of great help to you and I don’t know the whole history of your story. I am posting here in reference to a couple of questions you have. Regarding the pedialyte, you could do as you suggested by placing a bottle of it in there in addition to some water, but pedialyte should only be given for 24 hours because of the sodium content. So after 24 hours you should remove it and maybe offer it again later. You could try sweetening her water and see if that will encourage her to drink.

Also you can offer Ensure and see if she’ll drink it out of a shallow bowl. It has some nutritional content in addition to being a liquid. The pecan and vanilla flavors are usually a hit.

I think connecting with Dr. E is your very best option. You have been dealing with this clown of a vet long enough. I know this is a huge inconvenience based on your location, so I wanted to offer that if you can somehow make the trip to see Dr. E, you are welcome to stay with my husband and myself for the duration of your visit. We have a spare room as our kids are grown and gone. I’m located a little more than an hour south of Dr. E’s office but it’s a very easy drive to get there from here. If you think you’re interested I’ll send you my address and phone number in a private message. :grin2

You are truly wonderful, Mel, to make that offer! And thank you so much for responding about the Pedialyte and suggesting Ensure. I will go and get some Ensure today. And I'll try a small amount of sugar in her water.

I am in the Pacific Northwest. I can't imagine being able to be allowed to get air transport for April, so I would have to drive all the way to get to your house. I don't know if pets of any kind can travel by train; if so, I'd jump at that chance. My car (a 24 year old Saab) is unlikely to make it that far if I drive, so at this point, I'm not seeing Dr. E as an option face to face, but am looking forward to getting a remote appointment with her.

I do have one vague lead in Idaho for someone who might eventually be able to do the surgery, once I support April's health and healing. My friend and vet from Seattle is not ruling out that April may be able to heal, with her health maintained without amputation, but time will tell.

Thanks again for all that you have offered and suggested. It brings tears to my eyes, the help, support and advice I've gotten from all of you here who have responded, as well as from my local rescue community who have enormous kind hearts--while the vets seem to be another thing entirely.

I am feeling less emotional stress (and less of that kind of crying), since deciding yesterday to just can it with this Distorto Doctor, who seems to have no idea what genuine medical help and "first do no harm" can possibly mean. He can't even muster mediocre customer service responsiveness. I know I'll feel a lot better when I have help here with the bandaging, which I think will be soon, maybe by tomorrow. And the topical medication prescribed by my vet friend in Seattle will be here by Saturday.

Thanks again so much. Your kind offer makes me want to know you and your husband in person and see Florida! <3
~Teyuna

[Mel1959]

Teyuna, you have a standing invitation if your circumstances change. We have hosted others that needed to see Dr. E and we feel fortunate to be able to do so. :blowkiss

When you talk to Dr. E please ask her if she can recommend another vet that is closer to you if she recommends surgery. She just might know of someone. ��

I’m going to send you a pm of the name of a vet that treats squirrels in California. I don’t know if he still is practicing or not. I’ll also give you the name and number of someone that has many vet resources throughout the US.

Pm sent.

[teyuna]

Teyuna, you have a standing invitation if your circumstances change. We have hosted others that needed to see Dr. E and we feel fortunate to be able to do so. :blowkiss

When you talk to Dr. E please ask her if she can recommend another vet that is closer to you if she recommends surgery. She just might know of someone. 🤞

I’m going to send you a pm of the name of a vet that treats squirrels in California. I don’t know if he still is practicing or not. I’ll also give you the name and number of someone that has many vet resources throughout the US.

Thanks, Mel, for your great kindness.

And thanks for the suggestion to ask Dr. E about vets she may know here out west. I guess i was just assuming someone so far away from my area might not know of surgeons here, but networking is always better than mere geographic distance would suggest! After the many, many "cold calls" I've made, I've concluded that the only way I will ever find a surgeon is from someone who already knows of one.

I can almost picture getting myself and April as far as California, especially northern California.

~Teyuna

[Diggie's Friend]

I haven't had time to read through the entire thread; please excuse me if I missed something that pertains to finding a close by vet.

A squirrel rescue and rehab group known as "Squirrel Refuge" (360) 836-0955) located in Vancouver, WA. , likely has a vet that supports their work.

I would contact them to leave a message with your request for the name of the vet that they use.

If the vet is available, I would also ask them to consult with Dr. E on this case, as two experts generally are better than one!

[teyuna]

I haven't had time to read through the entire thread; please excuse me if I missed something that pertains to finding a close by vet.

A squirrel rescue and rehab group known as "Squirrel Refuge" (360) 836-0955) located in Vancouver, WA. , likely has a vet that supports their work.

I would contact them to leave a message with your request for the name of the vet that they use.

If the vet is available, I would also ask them to consult with Dr. E on this case, as two experts generally are better than one!

Thanks, Diggie's Friend!
I just got off the phone with the Squirrel Refuge! I've been communicating with them since my very first posting here on the Squirrel Board, because they were trying to find someone among their volunteers who could help me in my home with the wound care. They just called to tell me that there are two people who volunteer with them who will contact me! so I have the beginning of a team now! Finally, the help is coming in. Another person from my rescue community also sent me a volunteer. I think I may get help with the bandaging in the next day or so.

About vets, unfortunately the vet for the squirrel refuge moved out of the state, so they too are seeking another resource for squirrel care for the Refuge. They haven't found one yet.

Thanks again for your response! I really appreciate all the help and care available here <3

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Teyuna:
I certainly hope that the possibility of you and April finally have some help will come to fruition in short order! You and April need this and you both certainly deserve it!

As far as the Radiology report, I would certainly like to see it and please do post it BUT I would also like to ask that you get the actual films and post those. Most x-ray films are now taken digitally and can be treated just like any other digital source and that would be downloaded from a server or intermediary such as Dropbox as a file or placed within a folder. It can be uploaded to TSB and placed as a file within your thread! I would really like to see the original films (and also the lab report when this is available), not just the report. We as clients in behalf of our animals (be they pets or wildlife destined for release) are often given reports of radiographs or summaries of lab reports and rely on these "interpretations" to make further decisions in behalf of our animals (or in human medicine, for ourselves or our family members). Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, this will probably work out but I have always been in favor of viewing the actual "raw" data. I don't have much faith in this Vet and this to me would make reviewing the raw data imperative. Even if you (or others) do not understand it, this same raw data can be sent to someone we DO trust for review as well. In summary, it is usually best to have not just the reports indicating an interpretation of tests or procedures that have been performed but have copies of the actual original data (in April's case; this would be the lab values themselves and digital copies of the radiographs (the x-ray films themselves).

Just another comment about Pedialyte; this as Mel pointed out is an electrolyte solution. Electrolytes are things such as Sodium, chloride, potassium, etc. A mammal's body weight is mostly the weight of water these bodies contain. We and our Squirrels normally lose water daily through sweating (we sweat far more than our Squirrels do however), urination, moisture accompanying our exhaled breath and more! Most of this is plain water and that is why we should always have a source of pure, clean, unadulterated water available at all times for our Squirrels. Yes, April and other Squirrels (and ourselves, etc) will normally lose some electrolytes during the day but these are usually replaced from dietary sources (food) such as quality blocks from Henry's, Envigo, Mazuri or others. Pedialyte should NOT be a primary source of fluids for the average animal or human. We use Pedialyte or other Oral Rehydration Fluids when an animal is profoundly dehydrated (or really with most squirrels upon intake in a rehab facility because they are assumed to be dehydrated unless proven otherwise somehow). Water with electrolytes such as Pedialyte help replenish the volume of fluid within the blood stream and help relieve shock (inadequate circulation to the organs or tissues) or prevent shock! Pedialyte and other physiological quality rehydrating solutions are great for use with diarrhea as this is usually a fairly balance loss of fluid and electrolytes! The bottom line, April does not need the Pedialyte but April does need water!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna:
I certainly hope that the possibility of you and April finally have some help will come to fruition in short order! You and April need this and you both certainly deserve it!

As far as the Radiology report, I would certainly like to see it and please do post it BUT I would also like to ask that you get the actual films and post those. Most x-ray films are now taken digitally and can be treated just like any other digital source and that would be downloaded from a server or intermediary such as Dropbox as a file or placed within a folder. It can be uploaded to TSB and placed as a file within your thread! I would really like to see the original films (and also the lab report when this is available), not just the report. We as clients in behalf of our animals (be they pets or wildlife destined for release) are often given reports of radiographs or summaries of lab reports and rely on these "interpretations" to make further decisions in behalf of our animals (or in human medicine, for ourselves or our family members). Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, this will probably work out but I have always been in favor of viewing the actual "raw" data. I don't have much faith in this Vet and this to me would make reviewing the raw data imperative. Even if you (or others) do not understand it, this same raw data can be sent to someone we DO trust for review as well. In summary, it is usually best to have not just the reports indicating an interpretation of tests or procedures that have been performed but have copies of the actual original data (in April's case; this would be the lab values themselves and digital copies of the radiographs (the x-ray films themselves).

Just another comment about Pedialyte; this as Mel pointed out is an electrolyte solution. Electrolytes are things such as Sodium, chloride, potassium, etc. A mammal's body weight is mostly the weight of water these bodies contain. We and our Squirrels normally lose water daily through sweating (we sweat far more than our Squirrels do however), urination, moisture accompanying our exhaled breath and more! Most of this is plain water and that is why we should always have a source of pure, clean, unadulterated water available at all times for our Squirrels. Yes, April and other Squirrels (and ourselves, etc) will normally lose some electrolytes during the day but these are usually replaced from dietary sources (food) such as quality blocks from Henry's, Envigo, Mazuri or others. Pedialyte should NOT be a primary source of fluids for the average animal or human. We use Pedialyte or other Oral Rehydration Fluids when an animal is profoundly dehydrated (or really with most squirrels upon intake in a rehab facility because they are assumed to be dehydrated unless proven otherwise somehow). Water with electrolytes such as Pedialyte help replenish the volume of fluid within the blood stream and help relieve shock (inadequate circulation to the organs or tissues) or prevent shock! Pedialyte and other physiological quality rehydrating solutions are great for use with diarrhea as this is usually a fairly balance loss of fluid and electrolytes! The bottom line, April does not need the Pedialyte but April does need water!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thanks, Sam the Squirrel for all of this, and specifically for giving me the language I can use to request the actual x-ray films. If he says he can't send them, then I will tell him I need to get those films directly from the lab. Incidentally, the name of the Lab is not even on the message that the vet sent to me via email. That hardly seems accountable, since I paid hundreds to the Lab for the x-rays and the blood tests. When he finally sends the email about the blood panel, I will ask him at the same time all the questions that have occurred to me (mostly thanks to all of you) since he sent that message. Or, I should say, IF he sends me the blood test results. It's been 9 days already since her blood was drawn. I really need to be able to send these to Dr. E in Florida, and would like to send them to my friend in Seattle who is a vet, also.

Once again, the vet who his staff said for more than a week now, "will call you as soon as he can" has gone another full day without calling--this after multiple calls from me to his receptionists, to try to talk with him post report and to try to set re-check appointment for April. He hasn't seen her for nearly two weeks, just due to near total unresponsiveness to me.

Thanks also for giving me a much fuller understanding of electrolytes. I did know that we don't use Pedialyte routinely (for years, I've used it only for the first feedings of Found Infant mammals, before giving formula, but not after that), but I wondered if, given April's challenges, I should be alert to potential dehydration, and provide electrolytes if needed. It seems from what you've said that I should not, and should instead rely on just her water and her food (and luckily, she loves a wide range of vegies, fruit and wild greens, and in winter tends to concentrate on her Henry's and Envigo Teklad almost exclusively).

thanks again for all your help! Today, I communicated by email with three people interested in helping me (all three are rescue people), and we are trying to come up with a schedule. I hope my and her first day with help will be tomorrow! I feel so relieved, but also nervous until we're into the details and doing it.

~Teyuna
p.s. I tried to upload the Radiology report and the vet's comments (clicking on "upload file manager") as a Word file (I cut and pasted it from his email), but I don't see that it attached. I'm not sure what step I am getting wrong.

[teyuna]

Hello and thank you to everyone. It's been about six days since I posted any updated info on April. I'll start with the good news!

Last Friday, I got my first Helper (a squirrel rehab volunteer) to team up with me to wrangle and re-bandage April's severely self-wounded right hind leg. We fumbled the capture terribly! (she's great at eluding!), but the rest went well!

The following Sunday, another angel from the rescue community came to help, and we did a great job, or so I thought! The next day, the bandage came off. Helper #2 came back immediately to help me do a new one. That one has stayed on (with the one before that, I was being too concerned with how tightly I secured the Vet Wrap--it's a learning curve!).

Sam the Squirrel advised me a lot about bandaging techniques, so after some shopping trips, I'm implementing those.

Tomorrow, my third Helper comes. They are all so wonderful and willing to help. Their sweet, loving natures, compared to the horribleness of that vet that April and I were experiencing, is astounding.

Now, the bad news, or I should say, the continuing bad news about that vet is not only did he refuse to let his staff schedule recheck appointments with me to bandage April's leg between now and supposed surgery, to protect it from more biting and to protect it from bacteria, abrasion, potential development of sepsis, or (just as likely) bleeding to death, he has also stopped returning calls and emails (nothing for more than a week now, despite me calling each day and leaving messages), and obviously instructed his staff to ignore me ( I called every day, no calls returned). He has not even sent me the blood panel, as promised, nor called to discuss it, as promised (the blood test was more than two weeks ago, so I'm sure the lab has sent it to him by now). What he did send me a week ago was an email saying that even though April is "high risk for surviving surgery," I could still "elect" to do it, at my "discretion." In other words, I could elect to pay another $1,000 to someone who won't even return calls, who wanted to euthanize her from the moment he saw her, who has ghosted me for two weeks, not provided supportive care, and who doesn't even think she'll survive surgery.

The rest of my bad news is that so far, I also have no access to Dr. Emerson for a remote appointment. Many of you here on the Squirrel Board and through my other rescue communities have recommended her for a second opinion on the x-rays, her competence with exotics, and particularly with squirrels, but her receptionist told me today that she "never does appointments by phone," and that I would have to bring April to Florida if I wanted any consultation with Dr. Emerson.

I live about as far away from Florida as anyone can, and still be in the United States. So, it's hard for me to imagine taking April cross country with me in a cage in the back seat of an automobile (especially my old, beloved 23 year old Saab with zero air conditioning).

Thanks again for caring about our story and helping with your experience and suggestions. For now, we are trying to heal April's leg, and still planning on finding a surgeon

~Teyuna

[Chirps]

Can you threaten to sue this creep for the blood panel results? Not saying you should actually do it, but maybe the threat might get a response?

[teyuna]

Can you threaten to sue this creep for the blood panel results? Not saying you should actually do it, but maybe the threat might get a response?

Thanks for your comment. I finally got the blood panel results, such as they were, after writing that I needed it for a second opinion from another vet, and that I needed to know the name of the lab. The lab wrote, "insufficient sample for analysis," and "No information is currently available on how to interpret SDMA in this species," charging me $385 to give no conclusion on what I understand is one of the most important reasons for doing a diagnostic--i.e., to judge how the kidneys will handle the anesthetic. So, yet another failure by this vet to do something competently (provide a sufficient sample).

My potentially good news is that a person in my local rescue community is searching for other options for me for a surgeon. The vet I've been taking April to is definitely not an option. I feel relieved for having made this decision, based on his horrible neglect of her care.

Meanwhile, my helpers and I are doing 4 bandage changes a week on her leg. She has a lot of energy and seems to be feeling great, so that's awesome.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thanks for your comment. I finally got the blood panel results, such as they were, after writing that I needed it for a second opinion from another vet, and that I needed to know the name of the lab. The lab wrote, "insufficient sample for analysis," and "No information is currently available on how to interpret SDMA in this species," charging me $385 to give no conclusion on what I understand is one of the most important reasons for doing a diagnostic--i.e., to judge how the kidneys will handle the anesthetic. So, yet another failure by this vet to do something competently (provide a sufficient sample).

My potentially good news is that a person in my local rescue community is searching for other options for me for a surgeon. The vet I've been taking April to is definitely not an option. I feel relieved for having made this decision, based on his horrible neglect of her care.

Meanwhile, my helpers and I are doing 4 bandage changes a week on her leg. She has a lot of energy and seems to be feeling great, so that's awesome.

Hi Teyuna:
I'm not surprised about the lab "result" after all else that has transpired with this Vet! Just for the record, though, if was a concern to get lab parameter to evaluate kidney function before use of isoflurane or possibly one of the related inhaled anesthetic agents; it might interest you to know that these particular agents have little and probably in most instances, no effect on the kidneys!

It sounds promising for your locating a surgeon to evaluate April! I hope that pans out soon!

It sounds like the dressing changes going fairly well! Any signs of worsening or of improvement in the wounds? Did you get your dressing materials that will enable you to utilize the Moist Wound Healing Protocol?

Say hello to April for me and to your new helpers as well!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna:
I'm not surprised about the lab "result" after all else that has transpired with this Vet! Just for the record, though, if was a concern to get lab parameter to evaluate kidney function before use of isoflurane or possibly one of the related inhaled anesthetic agents; it might interest you to know that these particular agents have little and probably in most instances, no effect on the kidneys!

It sounds promising for your locating a surgeon to evaluate April! I hope that pans out soon!

It sounds like the dressing changes going fairly well! Any signs of worsening or of improvement in the wounds? Did you get your dressing materials that will enable you to utilize the Moist Wound Healing Protocol?

Say hello to April for me and to your new helpers as well!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

thanks, Sam the Squirrel, for clarifying about the kidneys! I think that vet was just stalling with irrelevant procedures in order to keep charging me, while he had NO intention or even competence to care for her. For example, his one bandage was hydrogen peroxide plus gauze. Nothing else.

I shopped for supplies--I have the Adaptik, bacitracin, no-stick pads and hydrogel, and vet wrap. I'm careful not to saturate when I clean with saline. No signs of maceration, no pussy exudate, just a bit of blood (mostly dried) on the bandage when I replace it. After our first awkward attempt, she's been very compliant, once we get her pinned down! And she's been instantly forgiving afterward. I still feel quite anxious about it, though--I hate to stress her.

I feel like I have a real team now--five of us really pulling for April, with the volunteers making her part of their agenda on their regular meetings. We might have a surgeon, but don't yet have a facility.

But at the very least, we are protecting April's great wound from bacteria, abrasion, and of course, the damage from her own teeth. She's eating well, sleeping well, playing well, being affectionate.

Thanks again for all your guidance and support. :)

~Teyuna (I keep trying to post a photo, but I just can't get it to happen!)

[uksquirrelfriend]

Hi Teyuna, I really hope April is doing ok and I’m so sorry you’ve both been through this ordeal.

Someone I met with a rodent with very similar neurological pain (which resulted in tail chewing) found that once the amputation of the sore part of the tail was done they found that a combination of spraying the wound with dry (not wet - they found the wet spray seemed to somehow be irritating) colloidal silver spray and giving regular doses of gabapentin (which their vet advised were fairly high) made a big difference, which allowed the wound to eventually fully heal. I see that you were initially instructed to give the gabapentin to April in her water and I understand that you’re now giving it to her in separate doses, which I agree is a much better idea - in case you’re struggling to get her to take the gabapentin, the method the person I met was using was using pieces of frozen coconut, which they then scored with a knife, creating channels in the coconut which they then injected the gabapentin liquid into. The combination of cold temperature and fat in the coconut masks any bitterness of gabapentin well. I’m wondering if it’s worth approaching a non-surgical vet or experienced rehabber in the interim just to see if you can up the gabapentin dose or frequency of the dose - the understanding the person I met had is that some rodents have a pretty high drugs tolerance and that gabapentin can have quite variable dosages. I completely understand you’re probably losing a bit of faith in gabapentin with the experience you’ve had (which is understandable!) but this may be worth a try. I’ve also heard that kinaesthetic tape (used for human sports injuries, it can be found on Amazon) can be great for applying over dressings on animals that pick their wounds (do not apply to an open wound though as it is VERY sticky, use it as a barrier to protect the bandaging underneath, I hope this makes sense!) as it is very flexible and lightweight. I caveat that I’m not a vet and this is all anecdotal, I’m just mentioning it in case it is useful. I really hope April is well soon and wish you the very best of luck.

[teyuna]

Hi Teyuna, I really hope April is doing ok and I’m so sorry you’ve both been through this ordeal.

Someone I met with a rodent with very similar neurological pain (which resulted in tail chewing) found that once the amputation of the sore part of the tail was done they found that a combination of spraying the wound with dry (not wet - they found the wet spray seemed to somehow be irritating) colloidal silver spray and giving regular doses of gabapentin (which their vet advised were fairly high) made a big difference, which allowed the wound to eventually fully heal. I see that you were initially instructed to give the gabapentin to April in her water and I understand that you’re now giving it to her in separate doses, which I agree is a much better idea - in case you’re struggling to get her to take the gabapentin, the method the person I met was using was using pieces of frozen coconut, which they then scored with a knife, creating channels in the coconut which they then injected the gabapentin liquid into. The combination of cold temperature and fat in the coconut masks any bitterness of gabapentin well. I’m wondering if it’s worth approaching a non-surgical vet or experienced rehabber in the interim just to see if you can up the gabapentin dose or frequency of the dose - the understanding the person I met had is that some rodents have a pretty high drugs tolerance and that gabapentin can have quite variable dosages. I completely understand you’re probably losing a bit of faith in gabapentin with the experience you’ve had (which is understandable!) but this may be worth a try. I’ve also heard that kinaesthetic tape (used for human sports injuries, it can be found on Amazon) can be great for applying over dressings on animals that pick their wounds (do not apply to an open wound though as it is VERY sticky, use it as a barrier to protect the bandaging underneath, I hope this makes sense!) as it is very flexible and lightweight. I caveat that I’m not a vet and this is all anecdotal, I’m just mentioning it in case it is useful. I really hope April is well soon and wish you the very best of luck.

Thanks, uk squirrel friend, for the insights about gabapentin. I'm happy to learn of the coconut technique. I will definitely try it.

Sadly, April may be one of those individuals within her species that doesn't respond much (or at all) to gabapentin. The direct oral doses have done nothing for her, as far as I can tell. So I look forward to when I have a new vet that I can trust, to ask what the potential ranges of dosages are, and whether we can increase them.

The bandaging I'm doing provides a great, flexible cushion, and the Vet Tape over that has kept her disinterested in either chewing it off or going after her leg. So maybe that is similar to the tape that you mentioned. It could be that she will always need that barrier, until she can get surgery. I did try colloidal silver earlier (to no effect), but will try it again later, when I get a bit more healing.

Amazingly, we are beginning to see some healing! I didn't think this would every happen. I will try again to post a photo (so far, I have been 100% unsuccessful, after many attempts at clicking on all the apparent steps). A week ago, two huge bites from her leg were visible as blood filled dents, two bones were severed and sticking up like tiny straws. Yesterday, I couldn't believe my eyes when I unwrapped her last dressing--all that mangled flesh is smoothed, and the bones are covered with new skin!

I have no illusions that this means she can avoid surgery, because unless the neuropathy ends or is under control, she will chew on the newly healed leg as soon as it is unwrapped. But it's great to see that the margins of the wound are also starting to show a regrowth of fur! She is an amazing healer, which I already knew, given her original vast and life threatening injuries when she was an infant.

Thanks again for your reply!
~Teyuna

[Spanky]

The bandaging I'm doing provides a great, flexible cushion, and the Vet Tape over that has kept her disinterested in either chewing it off or going after her leg. So maybe that is similar to the tape that you mentioned. It could be that she will always need that barrier, until she can get surgery. I did try colloidal silver earlier (to no effect), but will try it again later, when I get a bit more healing.

Amazingly, we are beginning to see some healing! I didn't think this would every happen. I will try again to post a photo (so far, I have been 100% unsuccessful, after many attempts at clicking on all the apparent steps). A week ago, two huge bites from her leg were visible as blood filled dents, two bones were severed and sticking up like tiny straws. Yesterday, I couldn't believe my eyes when I unwrapped her last dressing--all that mangled flesh is smoothed, and the bones are covered with new skin!

The healing as described sounds pretty darn miraculous... and while I have been only an by stander on this thread, I will jump in and strongly suggest that you "stick with what is working". Sounds like what you are doing is working....

I will also take a moment to throw in some encouragement in re-exploring the gabapentin with April's new vet. I have an NR that lost both her front legs at the elbow and it took quite a bit of trial and error for my vet and I to get the dose right for her, including higher than the dosing experiences I have used over the years on many other squirrels in my care.

[Diggie's Friend]

Have you considered the option of trying an Integral veterinary medicine approach?

With the Integral veterinary medicine approach, natural sources including herbal and homeopathic remedies are included as options with standard medical treatments

The PNW is the region of natural approaches to health and healing. More vets are now combining a natural approach with that of standard vet practices, aka: 'Integral medicine', having found that the combination often offers better options for successful treatment of conditions.

Here are link to listings of both Integral, and Holistic (natural) veterinarians in this region.

https://www.google.com/search?q=integral+medicine+vet+Oregon&oq=integral+medicine+vet+Oregon&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIKCAIQIR gWGB0YHjIKCAMQIRgWGB0YHtIBDjU1NzUxMzk5OWoxajE1qAIA sAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

Advise that you have another call around for you so that the call cannot be traced back to you.