NR Vomiting

[Elise]

My NR foxer Pete turns 8 years old in September.

I gave him some “organic” kale and sugar snap peas from the farmers market yesterday mid-morning. By the afternoon Pete started vomiting up kale and acting very sickly and spooked… Fast forward to today, he is still vomiting up anything he eats/drinks. I’ve watched him vomit at least three times in the last 4 hours. I am in contact with one rehabber who said to get benebac gel immediately. Is there anything else (over the counter) that I can give him? I do not have vet access.

Can someone help with the benebac dosing when I get it tomorrow morning?

TIA, Pete is my best friend and I need to do everything possible to help him.

[CritterMom]

Pete can have Pepto Bismol and it MIGHT help. Can you guesstimate his weight? You want the liquid pepto, not the tablets.

Hydration. You need to replace in hydration at least the volume he is vomiting. Give it in many small amounts - you don't want to trigger more vomiting while trying to help.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

My NR foxer Pete turns 8 years old in September.

I gave him some “organic” kale and sugar snap peas from the farmers market yesterday mid-morning. By the afternoon Pete started vomiting up kale and acting very sickly and spooked… Fast forward to today, he is still vomiting up anything he eats/drinks. I’ve watched him vomit at least three times in the last 4 hours. I am in contact with one rehabber who said to get benebac gel immediately. Is there anything else (over the counter) that I can give him? I do not have vet access.

Can someone help with the benebac dosing when I get it tomorrow morning?

TIA, Pete is my best friend and I need to do everything possible to help him.

Hello Elise:
I'm sorry about what is going on with Pete! I have a concern that I would like to try to investigate as best you can ASAP if the "vomiting" is still going on! Let me first very briefly state the medical definition of "vomiting" which is an active process that involves coordinated muscle contractions usually involving at least the stomach and the diaphragm along with brain responses that serve to actively expel partially digested and undigested contents from the stomach with force!

Here is the concern; Rodents, including Squirrels, are actually incapable of true vomiting! This has been proven in many studies. In fact rodents have been given a medications that would ordinarily cause intense vomiting in species such as our own species who have the "ability" to vomit and rodents do not vomit. If that is so, what is it that you are observing which obviously appears to be vomiting? The answer is what is called regurgitation and there is a significant difference between regurgitation and vomiting and the causes are usually quite different! Regurgitation is a passive process where undigested food moves the esophagus (this is the "food tube" that goes from the back of the throat to the stomach) and out of the mouth in what is essentially a passive drainage!

The importance of the differences between vomiting (impossible with rodents!) and regurgitation (quite possible with rodents!) is in arriving at likely causes for what is going on with Pete. One very likely possibility, especially since Pete's "vomiting" began following his eating some kale and snap peas is that there may be some of either of these foods or something else stuck in the back of Pete's throat or in the esophagus itself that is making it impossible for food (or maybe fluids as well) from making its way into the stomach! Is Pete still unable to keep food down or have things improved? If still having problems with expelling food, is Pete able to keep fluids down(best to be offered in small amounts!)?

If Pete is unable to retain fluids that he drinks, he must have sub-cutaneous fluids administered or he will quickly become dehydrated! Is there a Squirrel friendly Vet near where you live who can see Pete today (if the problem has not yet resolved or there are other concerns)? The Rehabber you talked with may know of a Vet nearby and probably does work with a Vet. IF you do plan to bring Pete to a Vet, it is essential to determine as best you can that Pete will not be confiscated or worse yet euthanized or simple let go!

Please provide an update on Pet's condition! Also, as this sometimes has a bearing on other potential medical issues; why is Pete an NR?

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Elise]

Pete can have Pepto Bismol and it MIGHT help. Can you guesstimate his weight? You want the liquid pepto, not the tablets.

Hydration. You need to replace in hydration at least the volume he is vomiting. Give it in many small amounts - you don't want to trigger more vomiting while trying to help.

Thank you for replying.

He weighed 1.98 lbs when last at the vet a couple years ago and he’s the same size as then. When we lived in Montana I was able to take him to the vet but not since we’ve moved to California. I will get pepto today along with the benebac.

Should I remove Pete’s water bottle then? And offer him water in dish every little while? He did regurgitate water after drinking yesterday.

[Elise]

Hello Elise:
I'm sorry about what is going on with Pete! I have a concern that I would like to try to investigate as best you can ASAP if the "vomiting" is still going on! Let me first very briefly state the medical definition of "vomiting" which is an active process that involves coordinated muscle contractions usually involving at least the stomach and the diaphragm along with brain responses that serve to actively expel partially digested and undigested contents from the stomach with force!

Here is the concern; Rodents, including Squirrels, are actually incapable of true vomiting! This has been proven in many studies. In fact rodents have been given a medications that would ordinarily cause intense vomiting in species such as our own species who have the "ability" to vomit and rodents do not vomit. If that is so, what is it that you are observing which obviously appears to be vomiting? The answer is what is called regurgitation and there is a significant difference between regurgitation and vomiting and the causes are usually quite different! Regurgitation is a passive process where undigested food moves the esophagus (this is the "food tube" that goes from the back of the throat to the stomach) and out of the mouth in what is essentially a passive drainage!

The importance of the differences between vomiting (impossible with rodents!) and regurgitation (quite possible with rodents!) is in arriving at likely causes for what is going on with Pete. One very likely possibility, especially since Pete's "vomiting" began following his eating some kale and snap peas is that there may be some of either of these foods or something else stuck in the back of Pete's throat or in the esophagus itself that is making it impossible for food (or maybe fluids as well) from making its way into the stomach! Is Pete still unable to keep food down or have things improved? If still having problems with expelling food, is Pete able to keep fluids down(best to be offered in small amounts!)?

If Pete is unable to retain fluids that he drinks, he must have sub-cutaneous fluids administered or he will quickly become dehydrated! Is there a Squirrel friendly Vet near where you live who can see Pete today (if the problem has not yet resolved or there are other concerns)? The Rehabber you talked with may know of a Vet nearby and probably does work with a Vet. IF you do plan to bring Pete to a Vet, it is essential to determine as best you can that Pete will not be confiscated or worse yet euthanized or simple let go!

Please provide an update on Pet's condition! Also, as this sometimes has a bearing on other potential medical issues; why is Pete an NR?

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thank you for replying and for your explanation. I would say it is regurgitating then. He is regurgitating liquid food after he eats anything, so I believe the food is making its’ way to his stomach, just not staying down.

He is still doing poorly this morning. I have no vet access. The rehabber I am talking to is in Florida and I’m in California :( Pete will surely be euthanized or at least confiscated here if I take him to a vet.

Pete is an NR because he imprinted very strongly when he was a baby, no medical conditions other than having a shorter than normal tail due to an injury he had when found as a 2-3 week old. He is very healthy otherwise and other than getting coccidia when he was a few months old, he has never been sick before.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you for replying.

He weighed 1.98 lbs when last at the vet a couple years ago and he’s the same size as then. When we lived in Montana I was able to take him to the vet but not since we’ve moved to California. I will get pepto today along with the benebac.

Should I remove Pete’s water bottle then? And offer him water in dish every little while? He did regurgitate water after drinking yesterday.

First of all, is your water bottle mechanism working as it should? (I use water bottles but I get very obsessive about them and worry about the water delivery mechanism malfunctioning!).

You mentioned that Pete regurgitated some water yesterday but how is he doing with eating and drinking today? Is Pete definitely drinking from the water bottle and keeping the water down? If he is unable to drink, he should get sub-q fluids! Especially if this is not an option and really even if it is; I would suggest that instead of the water dish; try to give Pete small amounts of water through via 1cc syringe just like he was a baby Squirrel again and was being given formula starting at first with this being given drop by drop to determine whether or not he is able to swallow this. He should be held upright, again, just like a baby Squirrel. Can you look into his mouth to check for some foreign material in the back of his throat?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Elise]

First of all, is your water bottle mechanism working as it should? (I use water bottles but I get very obsessive about them and worry about the water delivery mechanism malfunctioning!).

You mentioned that Pete regurgitated some water yesterday but how is he doing with eating and drinking today? Is Pete definitely drinking from the water bottle and keeping the water down? If he is unable to drink, he should get sub-q fluids! Especially if this is not an option and really even if it is; I would suggest that instead of the water dish; try to give Pete small amounts of water through via 1cc syringe just like he was a baby Squirrel again and was being given formula starting at first with this being given drop by drop to determine whether or not he is able to swallow this. He should be held upright, again, just like a baby Squirrel. Can you look into his mouth to check for some foreign material in the back of his throat?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Water bottle is working properly (I also obsess about them working correctly :) ). Pete is drinking but not keeping fluids down. I haven’t offered him any food for about 16 hours since he was just regurgitating it. Should I offer him an HHB? I will also try hydrating using a syringe. I’m out picking up benebac now but will check his throat for foreign material when I return home but I don’t think that is the issue. I think this is a poisoning from the vegetables.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Water bottle is working properly (I also obsess about them working correctly :) ). Pete is drinking but not keeping fluids down. I haven’t offered him any food for about 16 hours since he was just regurgitating it. Should I offer him an HHB? I will also try hydrating using a syringe. I’m out picking up benebac now but will check his throat for foreign material when I return home but I don’t think that is the issue. I think this is a poisoning from the vegetables.

Thanks Elise! Your hypothesis about poisoning from the vegetable is certainly a possibility but it's kind of frightening to think about how that could have occurred because I would assume that you washed those vegetables thoroughly and that the snap peas were whole and nothing would have ordinarily gotten inside.

I would still look in Pete's mouth because even if you feel it's unlikely, it is relatively simple to do and if there is something there, it could then be removed and hopefully all would be well! It's just a "step" I would recommend for the dealing with what options you have within the constraints you face (such as no Vet available). Just to verify, does it appear that Pete is not retaining any fluids? If so, this is extremely critical! Can your Rehabber administer Sub-q fluids if necessary?

I would hold off on the HHB or any foods for now. Nutritional support is of course important and necessary but hydration is primary and much more of a time-sensitive issue than nutrition at this point, plus, sub-optimal hydration will adversely affect the digestion of the food anyway. Also, if water is not "staying down," it is unlikely that food will do so. Elise, please be careful with even the fluids because aspiration (getting fluids or food into the breathing passages or lungs) is a risk some potentially very serious problems can develop with aspiration! Using a 1cc syringe for a controlled attempt at getting some probably well needed fluids into Pete would IMHO be well worth trying!

Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Elise:
Another thing that I neglected to mention but I feel that I need to do so is that Benebac contains microorganisms and FOS (fructooligossacharides) and while there may be some potential benefits from this product in certain circumstances, I would like to suggest NOT using this product now since aspiration is a heightened risk at the moment with Pete's regurgitations. While this product is probably harmless if it can transit from the stomach into the intestines nut it definitely does not belong in the lungs or in the breathing apparatus! For now, my suggestion would be to hold off on the Benebac and concentrate your efforts right now on finding a means to provide hydration that will be tolerated by Pete and not be regurgitated!
Thanks,
StS

[Elise]

Thanks Elise! Your hypothesis about poisoning from the vegetable is certainly a possibility but it's kind of frightening to think about how that could have occurred because I would assume that you washed those vegetables thoroughly and that the snap peas were whole and nothing would have ordinarily gotten inside.

I would still look in Pete's mouth because even if you feel it's unlikely, it is relatively simple to do and if there is something there, it could then be removed and hopefully all would be well! It's just a "step" I would recommend for the dealing with what options you have within the constraints you face (such as no Vet available). Just to verify, does it appear that Pete is not retaining any fluids? If so, this is extremely critical! Can your Rehabber administer Sub-q fluids if necessary?

I would hold off on the HHB or any foods for now. Nutritional support is of course important and necessary but hydration is primary and much more of a time-sensitive issue than nutrition at this point, plus, sub-optimal hydration will adversely affect the digestion of the food anyway. Also, if water is not "staying down," it is unlikely that food will do so. Elise, please be careful with even the fluids because aspiration (getting fluids or food into the breathing passages or lungs) is a risk some potentially very serious problems can develop with aspiration! Using a 1cc syringe for a controlled attempt at getting some probably well needed fluids into Pete would IMHO be well worth trying!

Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel


I checked Pete's mouth and there is nothing blocking. I will hold off on offering food to him. He is drinking but then later regurgitating the water. My rehabber is in Florida and I'm in California. There is no vet here that will help me without taking him, same with the wildlife center.

[Elise]

For now, my suggestion would be to hold off on the Benebac and concentrate your efforts right now on finding a means to provide hydration that will be tolerated by Pete and not be regurgitated!
Thanks,
StS

Will do, I will not give the benebac to him for now.

I don't know what else to do to help him :(

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I checked Pete's mouth and there is nothing blocking. I will hold off on offering food to him. He is drinking but then later regurgitating the water. My rehabber is in Florida and I'm in California. There is no vet here that will help me without taking him, same with the wildlife center.

How does the water come up? How long does it take for regurgitation to start after Pete drinks? Does it seem to dribble from his mouth slowly over a period of time or is it expelled relatively quickly and stop? Is the water he regurgitates clear, colored, bloody or whatever? Have you tried the giving some water via the syringe very slowly to see if smaller amounts with each swallow may be retained better? It may be that some of the water is retained and passing out of the stomach in the "right direction" and going into the intestines and getting absorbed. Do you have any Squirrel safe formula available nearby such as Esbilac Puppy Milk Replacer Powder with the White Faced puppy (the new formulation with the black/brown faced puppy seems to be causing diarrhea) or possibly make some of the Goat's Milk Formula and try this via the slow syringe method also.

It is still probably best to focus on figuring out whether or not Pete is actually retaining some of the fluids he drinks and then keeping him hydrated through the night and see how he is doing in the morning. If it appears that he is indeed keeping a significant amount of fluids down, it may be worth trying some liquid nutrition drop by drop through a syringe. Hopefully, with a little more time, the regurgitation will stop. I still wonder if there is something that is blocking his esophagus or outlet of his stomach but hopefully, even if that's the case, some fluids have been getting through!

Giving the Formula however, would provide (assuming some is passing through the stomach) not only fluids but some nutrition. It is just essential that Pete be hydrated! Other than regurgitating, is Pete exhibiting any other abnormal or unusual signs such as decreased activity? Is Pete urinating normally (roughly the same amount and same frequency as before this situation began)? If so, this would suggest that he is retaining some significant amount of fluids because decreased urination is a means for an animal or person to conserve fluids when fluids are less available.

I wish that if Pete can't be seen by a Vet, that he could be seen and returned to you by a Rehabber. I don't know where you are in California and I don't have any contacts there. Others on TSB might! Here is a link to the California Wildlife Rehabilitation Facilities published by the California Department of Fish & Wildlife. Maybe there is someone near to you who could directly help Pete!

https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Laboratories/Wildlife-Health/Rehab/Facilities

Please keep on with the updates. Thank your care, concern and love Pete! I wish the best for both of you!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel