antibiotic is not having an effect

[turski]

I live in South Africa and have a 5 year old squirrel which had developed at least an upper respiratory infection (according to vet)... clicking sound when breathing, heaving chest to breathe, wheezing noises and slightly breathing through mouth... other than this her behavior is very normal in that she is very playful and alert, no loss of appetite etc... defecates and wee’s well.

We did take her to the vet but she freaks out and cannot be controlled so the vet could only look and not touch, showed him video of her breathing and sound bites of crackling breath. Only my wife and I can physically handle her and with us she is soft.

He gave us Baytril to help her, in liquid form, ready-made injections and tablets for us to make into powder and use somehow.

With this animal its very hard for us to get her to ingest the antibiotic and have given up trying to inject her. But with a combination of various methods we have given her good daily doses....

The trouble is that she has had a good 10 days worth and we have seen no change... she is not getting any worse and behaves normally... but she is not getting any better.

Could it be that Baytril just doesn’t work on her?? Can it sometimes take longer than 10 days?

What else can I do... I don’t want to wait before it actually does get worse.

Any advice is greatly appreciated

Thanks

[CritterMom]

Well, it was a good choice for the symptoms - Baytril usually is very effective against upper respiratory issues. It is one of those drugs that if it is going to work, it works quickly, so I think that 10 days is more than enough. Can you contact the vet and let them know so hopefully they can provide you with a different med?

I see you are in South Africa - forgive my my ignorance... Is there anything happening weather-wise that could be an issue? Dust storms, fires, things like that? Animals can be allergic to things just like humans but animals usually don't have the same symptoms - where we would have runny nose, sneezing, red, itchy eyes etc., they develop skin issues. But actualy atmospheric pollutants like smoke and dust can definitely cause breathing issues...

[turski]

Hi CritterMom

That is a very perceptive answer and could lead onto a possible cause as I had indeed considered climate.

Our Squirrel is actually from the Okavango Delta in Botswana... long story but we saved her and she lived with us there until we moved to South Africa this February.

She has always lived in a very big cage (2mx2mx2m) attached to the side of the house and has permanent access to a room inside the house where she sleeps with ample areas, boxes, cupboards etc where she nests on her own with a huge variety off material to hand (she prefers toilet paper).... so basically she is never in a small cage.

She moved to SA this February 2022 when it was 3/4 into summer and has been through one winter and coming into summer again.

The point could be the we now live in the Western Cape, about 2km from the coast, so it is a coastal area.... and in this region of SA there are no squirrels here at all... none.

So coming from the Okavango which has a pretty different climate, to something like a Mediterranean climate we now have, I had wondered if this may have affected her.

There are occasional fires here, but I don't think anything more than we had in Botswana... no dust etc.

Even so... If anything has caused an upper respiratory infection, would antibiotics not help regardless?

I need to find a solution quickly as its now over 3 weeks and I don't want her to get worse.

[CritterMom]

Oh, if it is an infection, yes, antibiotics are needed but perhaps not the Baytril.

See if your vet perhaps can provide you with amoxicillin clavulanate. It is sold in the veterinary world as "clavamox" and is a combination of two drugs. It is also used with humans. I have seen it referred to as Amoxiclav in England, but regardless, they are all the same drug. If your vet cannot get it (and it is a VERY popular veterinary drug so they should be able to) perhaps someone you know has something left over from when they were ill - check with family and friends and see what you can find med wise.

For us to help you here, you will need to be able to provide us with they weight of your squirrel and the size of the pill in milligrams. You will need a 1ml syringe with clear markings (no needle).

[turski]

Thank you

I will pass the info to my vet... and also try and get a weight for you.

I did have an odd question... may I ask what if any are the consequences of giving too much baytril to a squirrel?

The only reason I ask is that its very difficult to get ours to ingest the antibiotic, so we tried various methods.... am asking just in case we gave too much

Thanks

[CritterMom]

A small amount wouldn't be an issue - drugs are diluted way down for little animals. There is a fair amount of leeway. Are you seeing any problems?

[turski]

not really no... no other problems other than the fact that she does doest seem to be responding to the antibiotics

[turski]

My squirrel is still clicking and reasonably laboured breathing

The vet has suggested that she has already had enough antibiotics (she has) and as its not doing anything, there is no point in continuing with that treatment.

The issue is still that she is not getting any worse but not getting better... she is still very active and eats and plays well.

Vet has suggested that she go on a nebuliser with a cortisone for a few days to see if that helps...

Why would she be not getting worse or better?

[CritterMom]

My squirrel is still clicking and reasonably laboured breathing

The vet has suggested that she has already had enough antibiotics (she has) and as its not doing anything, there is no point in continuing with that treatment.

The issue is still that she is not getting any worse but not getting better... she is still very active and eats and plays well.

Vet has suggested that she go on a nebuliser with a cortisone for a few days to see if that helps...

Why would she be not getting worse or better?

Because antibiotics only have an effect on bacterial issues, and some antibiotics have a wider range of effectiveness than others do. That means that if you administer an antibiotic for a bacterial issue that it is not particularly effective, it won't help no matter how long it has been given. In this case I would differ with our vet in that only one ever narrowing range antibiotic has been administered so far.

If this is NOT a bacterial issue, and is fungal or viral in nature, NO antibiotic will help. You would need to do testing and see if something can be found to determine if it can be treated with meds, i.e., an antifungal of some kind.

The nebulizer and corticosteroids will rapidly knock down any inflammation she may have. If she stays that way after the meds are discontinued, then she is better, if not, again, you will need to do some further investigation.

[Diggie's Friend]

Whether this issue was caused by bad bacteria, fungi, or other other agent; both the short and/or long term use of AB for infections reduces the level of good gut bacteria (flora) that is key in supporting the availability of nutrients in the diet. In the wild, tree squirrels acquire good bacteria by pulling up grass tufts and turning them over to chew on the soil which surrounds the roots, aka: (geophagy). Natural sources of soil likely include undesirable components, like (nematodes and helminths) intestinal parasites. A better source for, 'soil based organisms' for good bacteria specifically, for the juvenile squirrels and adults, is to provide a supplemental of good digestive digestive bacteria to counter the bad forms, some of which may be AB resistant. This same good gut bacteria is vital to maintain a healthy immune system, of which over 70 percent is located in the gut.

This link to a US. source noted to have helped pets all over the World. may be available to your region.

https://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Science-Pet-Flora-Gastrointestinal/dp/B005PJN2HO

Always mix powdered nutrient sources into approx. (1/2 Tsp.) of a wet food source. Organic baked squash with a pinch of fine chopped organic walnut can add aroma and taste appeal to bland squash.

Naturally sweetened plain organic yogurt with pinch of fine chopped organic walnut; or with (1/4 Tsp.) of organic naturally sweetened (no sugars real or artificial added), also may improve the appeal of yogurt for a squirrel.

[turski]

We do usually feed the squirrel grass roots as she always seems to like it.... I just didn't really know why...

An update is that she has a good 5 says of nebulising with cortisone twice a day for 20 minutes... definitely not at all worse, but still a little crackle and wheeze and laboured breathing... But other than this very normal with a fair bit of playing and running around, apart from those symptoms you wouldn't really really know there was an issue as she is not behaving sick at all.

so kind of again, not getting worse and not getting really better.

Vet suggested putting her to sleep for tests... but I am very concerned at the risk of this with a small animal... vet did say that if she hasn't a breathing issue this could heighten any risk.

Is it worth doing?... risk wise?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

We do usually feed the squirrel grass roots as she always seems to like it.... I just didn't really know why...

An update is that she has a good 5 says of nebulising with cortisone twice a day for 20 minutes... definitely not at all worse, but still a little crackle and wheeze and laboured breathing... But other than this very normal with a fair bit of playing and running around, apart from those symptoms you wouldn't really really know there was an issue as she is not behaving sick at all.

so kind of again, not getting worse and not getting really better.

Vet suggested putting her to sleep for tests... but I am very concerned at the risk of this with a small animal... vet did say that if she hasn't a breathing issue this could heighten any risk.

Is it worth doing?... risk wise?

Hi Turski:
I just reviewed your thread. What is the name of your Squirrel?

I suspect that the signs you have noticed; including occasional mouth breathing, "crackles" & "wheezes" might possibly originate in the upper respiratory region and not the lungs. That does not imply that I feel that your Squirrel has an URI as was the original working diagnosis. Squirrels are obligate nose breathers meaning that they cannot just switch to mouth breathing as adult humans can when they have difficulty taking in air through their noses. This does not mean that they cannot breath through their mouths but it is not easy for a Squirrel to do so. Usually the mouth breathing is accompanied by noises that certainly sound like wheezes and crackles and in a way they are BUT, they originate in the upper airways (the nose for instance) due to air trying to go past whatever is causing an obstruction in the nose. Yes, difficulty breathing through the nose can be cause by a URI or allergies but a very common cause of difficulty breathing through the nose is dental issues; often an odontoma. I certainly believe further workup is necessary and ir would be very easy to obtain several high quality skull x-ray films to see if there is any evidence of an odontoma. Often this quite obvious on the film by seeing a relatively round, somewhat lumpy appearing white mass at the root area of usually one or more of the incisors.

As far as using anesthesia to sedate your Squirrel to facilitate examination and "tests;" this can be risky even when the person performing the procedure is experience with "gassing down" Squirrels. If they are not experienced with this and with monitoring the status of the sedated or anesthetized Squirrel, the risk for a bad outcome or even death are magnified greatly! That all being said, when those who understand the rationale for sedation and possess all of the required equipment and are qualified by knowledge and experience in utilizing inhaled anesthetic agents for sedation, the potential benefits can frequently outweigh the risks! There are risks to any procedure the risks, of course, never be completely eliminated.

Is there any drainage from the nose or around the eyes and if so, what color is it and is it cloudy or clear. Is there any swelling in the head or neck of your Squirrel?

I wish the best for your Little Squirrel and for you!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello again:
I inadvertently left out an important question from my recent post and that is; what specifically are the tests your Vet wants to perform?
StS

[turski]

Thanks for your reply

The Squirrel is called Wibble Creek.

She is pretty wild.... very docile with my wife and I but you cant just take her to a vet and let her be handled... that won't work as she freaks out.

There is no discernible discharge from the eyes or moth no.... bot that we can easily see... but sometimes around her mouth it can look reddish?

No real swelling that we can easily see no.

Not sure exactly how the vet want to test after its asleep, but I know they want to stake samples to see what type of foreign bacteria there is and what other type of antibiotic will help other than Baytril which doesn't seem to do anything.

Not even sure nebulising her everyday is doing a great deal.

As mentioned she is still very lively and eats well

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thanks for your reply

The Squirrel is called Wibble Creek.

She is pretty wild.... very docile with my wife and I but you cant just take her to a vet and let her be handled... that won't work as she freaks out.

There is no discernible discharge from the eyes or moth no.... bot that we can easily see... but sometimes around her mouth it can look reddish?

No real swelling that we can easily see no.

Not sure exactly how the vet want to test after its asleep, but I know they want to stake samples to see what type of foreign bacteria there is and what other type of antibiotic will help other than Baytril which doesn't seem to do anything.

Not even sure nebulising her everyday is doing a great deal.

As mentioned she is still very lively and eats well

Thanks! Hello little Wibble Creek Squirrel!

Yes, it seems as if there is no definitive advantage being derived from the nebulizations. If I might make a couple of suggestions in addition to what the Vet already has in mind that would be relatively easy to accomplish (especially if already sedated) and may be of benefit. I would suggest obtaining skull x-ray films from more than one angle with at least one view directly from the side (a lateral view) to see if there are any obvious dental conditions such as an odontoma that might be impacting Wibble Creek's breathing through her nose along with a couple of chest x-ray films. With a Squirrel, it is not necessary to try to limit the film to only the chest as this is very difficult and usually taking a film the includes most of chest and abdomen or even most all of the Squirrel will work fine as long as the x-ray machine is set up to preferentially penetrate the air containing chest. Views directly from the side (lateral views) and a ventro-dorsal view (the x-ray beam passing from the front to back as if the Squirrel was viewed as standing upright like a person [it is not necessary to actually hold Wibble Creek upright, it's simply how the x-ray beam is directed that matters]). Sedation may help with obtaining the x-ray films.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[turski]

SamtheSquirrel

Thank you very much for the advice... I will certainly suggest all to the vet, he knows I am doing my own research as best as I can as there must be a next step forward, as although she does not seem like a sick animal, she can't continue too long heaving a bit for breath.

Sedation may be difficult as its not at all possible to inject her and only has in a secure chamber will I think work?... and I can't let her out of her carry box at the vet, so the carry box will have to fit into whatever chamber the vet uses... to be discussed with him.

If he can sedate her with gas rather than put her out that ay be a good option.

I will mention this all to the vet

Thanks again as its really difficult to get information about what to do .... and we are all attached to our squirrels.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I would suggest obtaining skull x-ray films from more than one angle with at least one view directly from the side (a lateral view) to see if there are any obvious dental conditions such as an odontoma that might be impacting Wibble Creek's breathing through her nose along with a couple of chest x-ray films. With a Squirrel, it is not necessary to try to limit the film to only the chest as this is very difficult and usually taking a film the includes most of chest and abdomen or even most all of the Squirrel will work fine as long as the x-ray machine is set up to preferentially penetrate the air containing chest. Views directly from the side (lateral views) and a ventro-dorsal view (the x-ray beam passing from the front to back as if the Squirrel was viewed as standing upright like a person [it is not necessary to actually hold Wibble Creek upright, it's simply how the x-ray beam is directed that matters]). Sedation may help with obtaining the x-ray films.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

By the way, although I mentioned one of the views for the Chest x-ray as being taken in the Ventro-Dorsal direction (the x-ray beam traveling from front to if viewed as if the Squirrel was standing upright); it can also be performed if taken Dorso-ventrally (the x-ray beam traveling from back to front if viewed as if the Squirrel was standing upright). The x-ray beam passes through the same regions and anatomy. Whatever is easiest or advised by the tech or Vet will work. I just wanted to clarify this because either view is going to yield pretty much the same image! Please keep us informed of Wibble Creek's condition and status. Thanks!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Mel1959]

Any update?

[turski]

No updates as such... Wibble hasn't really deteriorated, still ok but breathing heavy and crackly with a little wheezing still

The vet has acknowledged that the Baytril just could be the wrong antibiotic.... also thinks that an invasive test by putting her to sleep etc is perhaps risky.

So we have been given two separate antibiotics now... both in liquid form and to be taken together... 1st 1ml of Amoclan and the 2nd is 1.3 ml of Metronidasool/Metronidazole

As they are liquid I really could do with advice as to how to feed it into here in liquid form as she won't feed from the end of a syringe etc.... very busy eater

We have had previous success in soaking a dog pellet with a little liquid, but she prefers to eat the pellet when its dry and not still wet.... does anyone know if a liquid antibiotic goes dry (like in a pellet) does it lose its potency?... and does out still need to be wet to work?

Thanks