Not the same after med. procedures

[astra]

Need some help from experienced rehabbers and who may have dealt with a similar situation.

A squirrel about 7-8 yrs old.
Sometime ea. July at the vet was gassed and then sedated to do blood test, urine test, X-rays and general exam.


After this vet visit the sq spent two days just lying in its bed. Would get out to pee and drink some and that’s it.
Since then the sq hasn’t regained its level of pre-vet visit energy and activity.

Now the little one mostly sleeps, lost interest in running and playing, doesn’t care for its toys. Eats less, of course. All previous habits and behaviours are gone.
This appears as depression. But maybe there can be other physiological causes?
After the vet visit the sq was put on abs for a minor issue, but abs are finished now. But this very low energy, uncharacteristically low level of activity and loss of interest in play/toys started even before the course of abs, right after the vet, so rather doubtful abs had smth to do with it.

It’s been almost two months of such energy/mood downturn and now it’s very alarming.

The vet doesn’t know much (or anything) about sqs.

Obviously, another sedation/anaesthesia are out of question.

Has anyone observed such drop of energy?
What could this be and what can be done?
Is it depression? How is it treated in sqs?
Could it be anemia? How to supplement a sq with iron?
Some other deficiencies?
Some rare side effects from anaesthesia and/sedation?
Smth else?
...

I have never dealt with such situation, so I am of no help.
But maybe more experienced ppl will have suggestions.

Thank you!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Need some help from experienced rehabbers and who may have dealt with a similar situation.

A squirrel about 7-8 yrs old.
Sometime ea. July at the vet was gassed and then sedated to do blood test, urine test, X-rays and general exam.


After this vet visit the sq spent two days just lying in its bed. Would get out to pee and drink some and that’s it.
Since then the sq hasn’t regained its level of pre-vet visit energy and activity.

Hi Astra:
I want to preface this by stating that not only might I be wrong but I hope I am wrong! I don't know if you were present during the "gassing down" or additional sedation but if you were you may be able to shed a little more light on the possible events that transpired during these treatment by posting you observations of your Squirrel during this time. I do not believe that your Squirrel's sudden behavioral change is related to depression. This change in status began immediately after his "gassing down" and sedation and what I suspect occurred with either or both of these management modalities is that your Squirrel suffered Anoxic Brain Injury. This occurs when the brain does not get adequate oxygenation and results in injury and possibly irreparable damage to brain cells from lack of oxygen. "Gassing" an animal for sedation is a common practice but there are major risks to this associated with this practice. Excessive or prolonged "gassing down" (this is the common expression for this practice but what actually goes on is that the animal is given ideally, just the minimal dose of an inhalation type anesthetic to reach the lightest level of sedation necessary to permit safe and thorough examination, obtaining laboratory specimens or facilitate quick treatment to benefit your Squirrel. In an ideal medical environment, the same measures for monitoring the heart, breathing and oxygenation are used when an animal is "gassed down" as when an animal is having the same inhalation anesthesia for surgery. Most often, however, that is not done as it is difficult to single handedly accomplish the goals associated with the reason for sedation in the first place while also monitoring closely the parameters I just mentioned (heart function, breathing, and oxygenation). Inhaled anesthesia can and does affect breathing and if breathing is decreased or possibly suppressed completely, even for a very short time, the animal may not get enough oxygen to the brain or other organs. The brain is the organ with highest demand for oxygen and is usually the first to suffer injury or permanent damage from not getting adequate oxygenation. IF you Squirrel has suffered Anoxic Brian Injury, the effects of this may yet improve but in light of the fact that two months has already gone by; significant improvement may not be forthcoming. Again, I hope I am completely wrong but the event history that preceded your Squirrels sudden behavioral changes certainly suggests this diagnosis. Although it seems that there is cause and effect, it may be a very rare coincidence and that there is another explanation for your Squirrel's status changes such as eating something toxic or possibly another medical condition; just as an example, such as Metabolic Bone Disease but as this is progressive and your Squirrels condition has been rather stable, so I doubt very much that MBD would "in the running." I am sorry for any grief my post may have caused you Astra and am sorry for your Little Squirrel as well! Please keep us updated on you Little One's condition.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello again Astra:
Were all of the laboratory parameters in the normal range for the lab tests performed when your Squirrel was sedated and what x-rays were performed and were they too, normal. More to the point however is why these studies were being done? It appears that your Squirrel may have some problems that preceded his sedation as "routine" lab and x-rays are not usually done with Squirrels especially when there is the added risk of "gassing down" and/or other sedation to facilitate these. If there were issues that preceded his sedation what were they? This also begs the question of whether or not his current status changes be secondary to whatever those issues were? By the way, what is your Squirrels name?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[astra]

Hello again Astra:
Were all of the laboratory parameters in the normal range for the lab tests performed when your Squirrel was sedated and what x-rays were performed and were they too, normal. More to the point however is why these studies were being done? It appears that your Squirrel may have some problems that preceded his sedation as "routine" lab and x-rays are not usually done with Squirrels especially when there is the added risk of "gassing down" and/or other sedation to facilitate these. If there were issues that preceded his sedation what were they? This also begs the question of whether or not his current status changes be secondary to whatever those issues were? By the way, what is your Squirrels name?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thank you for your replies.
I was not there during the examination as this is a friend of mine's squirrel.
The x-ray was to check teeth/mouth and do a routine blood test. So, there were no issues before the examination. It was an absolutely normal and very active squirrel.

Re: possible anoxic injury. My assumption would be that there should be significant, even if mild, impairments. But there seem to be no cognitive problems/deficits, nothing other than what I described: the squirrel is less active, sleeps more, and stopped playing with its fav. toys. I looked into a possible anoxic b.i., but it seems there should be some cognitive changes and some other symptoms which are not observed (or at least not apparent) here.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you for your replies.
I was not there during the examination as this is a friend of mine's squirrel.
The x-ray was to check teeth/mouth and do a routine blood test. So, there were no issues before the examination. It was an absolutely normal and very active squirrel.

Re: possible anoxic injury. My assumption would be that there should be significant, even if mild, impairments. But there seem to be no cognitive problems/deficits, nothing other than what I described: the squirrel is less active, sleeps more, and stopped playing with its fav. toys. I looked into a possible anoxic b.i., but it seems there should be some cognitive changes and some other symptoms which are not observed (or at least not apparent) here.

Hi once again Astra:
There are certainly other possibilities such as hypothyroidism and diabetes to name just a couple that can cause decreased activity and relatively mild behavioral changes. Anoxic Brain Injury, however, can run the full gamut of possible symptomology; from very mild or even undetectable effects through obvious but relatively mild behavioral changes to even seizures, coma or death. Also, cognitive changes are related to reasoning and memory and are often only assumed in veterinary medicine and pediatrics because they truly may not be able to be assessed. I'm not trying to "sell" the Anoxic Brain Injury diagnosis but it does seem to explain the sudden development of the observed status changes you report have occurred with your friend's Squirrel.

One of the common "thinking" tools used in medicine to help formulate diagnoses is called Occams Razor. Its beauty and usefulness lies in the fact that when we consider possible diagnoses to explain a patient's (animal or human) symptoms, the simplest explanation is often the correct one. Using Occams Razor, your friends Squirrel was apparently normal and underwent gassing and possibly further sedation to facilitate what were apparently felt to be "routine" studies. The Squirrel also apparently does not have any medical history and all of the studies were normal. Sedation and especially the use of inhalation type anesthetic agents are well known to suppress breathing to some extent or even entirely (usually breathing is assisted for an animal undergoing general surgery to maintain oxygenation and remove carbon dioxide through expired air). When this happens, the brain cells are often the first to be affected. The reason I suspect Anoxic Brain Injury is only because it is what seems to me be the simplest explanation in light of the history of the events and the the Squirrels history of being in good health and behaving normally prior to his being sedated and that this event coincides with the Squirrel developing mild but obviously noticeable changes in behavior that have remained relatively stable for two months. Again, I hope that all the Squirrels symptoms resolve soon and that there really are no brain related issues! Did your friend take the Squirrel back to the Vet or another Vet or at least communicate the subsequent behavioral changes and his concerns to the original Vet?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Diggie's Friend]

The most common issue that arises with squirrels with vet visits is stress. Some years back, there was a member married to a veterinarian, who wrote that having put their their squirrel under to trim the incisors, a few days later it had a seizure. They explained they made a mistake having not given the squirrel food \ prior to putting their squirrel under anesthesia; because low blood sugar can impact the brain under stressful situations. This was confirmed when our Exotic vet advised I do the same for our squirrel prior to undergoing a procedure, to feed an hour prior to setting out to the vet office.

Keep a close watch on your squirrel for any sign of seizure. Also, place a small vessel with a liquid sugar source in case of seizure into a ziplock bag for ready use.
Should one occur, place a droplet behind the incisors into the side of lip.

For source you can use maple syrup, honey,dark molasses (not the blackstrap which is high in iron). My preference is this source of organic raw agave nectar which is lower glycemic that doesn't, 'spike' blood sugar.

https://www.amazon.com/Agave-Raw-Sweetener-18-5-Ounce-Bottle/dp/B0078DP4IK/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1ZT5BO10B9SZX&keywords=organic+raw+agave+nectar&qid=1661709617&sprefix=organic+raw+agave%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE5TUJZT0gwQ0tFSDUmZ W5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3NzY0ODEyRlNFUU9DUTRSU1ZNJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5NTQ2MjQ5UTc4WlRWRVBZMVQmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Typically, magnesium also lowers with stress from handling and travel. Magnesium is known as the calming mineral. Magnesium L threonatea is a form of magnesium found to well cross the blood brain barrier in rodents. Using Magnesium L Threonate by, "Double Wood", add one half capsule powder from this source below, split fed into yogurt twice daily.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Threonate-Capsules-Magtein-Bioavailable/dp/B01M4GM9R1/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0OiQroHq-QIVpxOtBh0LJgtaEAAYAyAAEgI_FfD_BwE&hvadid=243354333087&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031634&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13098330319943949478&hvtargid=kwd-409929050533&hydadcr=21249_9691032&keywords=double+wood+magnesium+threonate&qid=1661706047&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExOUE4OE8zVTZaUklZJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDk2ODMzMjVISE9GUEJOOEZTRSZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUExMDQxOTUxUko4Rk9SNTVaUEdOJndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm9 0TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Vitamin B-12, (methylcobalmin and adenocobalamin) the natural (bioidentical) forms found in the body, help to reduce the effects of stress on the body and brain. Give prior to travel/ Vet visit, one droplet from a small needle 1 ml syringe into 1/4 Tsp. of Organic naturally sweetened applesauce or other well accepted moist food. Next day, one droplet; then after, every other day for 5 more days.

https://www.amazon.com/VeganSafe-B-12-Methylcobalamin-Adenosylcobalamin-Supplement/dp/B00RXEW7R0/ref=sr_1_7?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhMj44I3q-QIVnwytBh3n-wWsEAAYAiAAEgIvV_D_BwE&hvadid=177785812066&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031634&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=13653217213089370680&hvtargid=kwd-140640790142&hydadcr=21194_9690515&keywords=b12+global+healing&qid=1661709388&sr=8-7

[astra]

Hi once again Astra:
There are certainly other possibilities such as hypothyroidism and diabetes to name just a couple that can cause decreased activity and relatively mild behavioral changes. Anoxic Brain Injury, however, can run the full gamut of possible symptomology; from very mild or even undetectable effects through obvious but relatively mild behavioral changes to even seizures, coma or death. Also, cognitive changes are related to reasoning and memory and are often only assumed in veterinary medicine and pediatrics because they truly may not be able to be assessed. I'm not trying to "sell" the Anoxic Brain Injury diagnosis but it does seem to explain the sudden development of the observed status changes you report have occurred with your friend's Squirrel.

One of the common "thinking" tools used in medicine to help formulate diagnoses is called Occams Razor. Its beauty and usefulness lies in the fact that when we consider possible diagnoses to explain a patient's (animal or human) symptoms, the simplest explanation is often the correct one. Using Occams Razor, your friends Squirrel was apparently normal and underwent gassing and possibly further sedation to facilitate what were apparently felt to be "routine" studies. The Squirrel also apparently does not have any medical history and all of the studies were normal. Sedation and especially the use of inhalation type anesthetic agents are well known to suppress breathing to some extent or even entirely (usually breathing is assisted for an animal undergoing general surgery to maintain oxygenation and remove carbon dioxide through expired air). When this happens, the brain cells are often the first to be affected. The reason I suspect Anoxic Brain Injury is only because it is what seems to me be the simplest explanation in light of the history of the events and the the Squirrels history of being in good health and behaving normally prior to his being sedated and that this event coincides with the Squirrel developing mild but obviously noticeable changes in behavior that have remained relatively stable for two months. Again, I hope that all the Squirrels symptoms resolve soon and that there really are no brain related issues! Did your friend take the Squirrel back to the Vet or another Vet or at least communicate the subsequent behavioral changes and his concerns to the original Vet?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
First off, :) I don't think you are trying to sell a.b.i., and I thank you for bringing it up, as hard of a blow as it is. Yes, the changes were shared with the vet right after when the squirrel stayed in bed for the next two days. But the vet said it could be the result of some blood drawn (for the blood test), as well as temporary effect of anesthesia/sedation (i.e., that the squirrel took it harder than usual). This vet knows little about squirrels, and there are no squirrel-knowledgeable vets in the area (what else is new). Certainly, the squirrel wasn't brought to the vet again -- what's the point?... the vet knows little, and just by observing the little guy he will see what we see. In order to run more tests another anesthesia will be needed, but now it's out of the question.
I, too, hope it will resolve, but it's just devastating.

[astra]

The most common issue that arises with squirrels with vet visits is stress. Some years back, there was a member married to a veterinarian, who wrote that having put their their squirrel under to trim the incisors, a few days later it had a seizure. They explained they made a mistake having not given the squirrel food \ prior to putting their squirrel under anesthesia; because low blood sugar can impact the brain under stressful situations. This was confirmed when our Exotic vet advised I do the same for our squirrel prior to undergoing a procedure, to feed an hour prior to setting out to the vet office.

Keep a close watch on your squirrel for any sign of seizure. Also, place a small vessel with a liquid sugar source in case of seizure into a ziplock bag for ready use.
Should one occur, place a droplet behind the incisors into the side of lip.

For source you can use maple syrup, honey,dark molasses (not the blackstrap which is high in iron). My preference is this source of organic raw agave nectar which is lower glycemic that doesn't, 'spike' blood sugar.

https://www.amazon.com/Agave-Raw-Sweetener-18-5-Ounce-Bottle/dp/B0078DP4IK/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1ZT5BO10B9SZX&keywords=organic+raw+agave+nectar&qid=1661709617&sprefix=organic+raw+agave%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE5TUJZT0gwQ0tFSDUmZ W5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3NzY0ODEyRlNFUU9DUTRSU1ZNJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5NTQ2MjQ5UTc4WlRWRVBZMVQmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Typically, magnesium also lowers with stress from handling and travel. Magnesium is known as the calming mineral. Magnesium L threonatea is a form of magnesium found to well cross the blood brain barrier in rodents. Using Magnesium L Threonate by, "Double Wood", add one half capsule powder from this source below, split fed into yogurt twice daily.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Threonate-Capsules-Magtein-Bioavailable/dp/B01M4GM9R1/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0OiQroHq-QIVpxOtBh0LJgtaEAAYAyAAEgI_FfD_BwE&hvadid=243354333087&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031634&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13098330319943949478&hvtargid=kwd-409929050533&hydadcr=21249_9691032&keywords=double+wood+magnesium+threonate&qid=1661706047&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExOUE4OE8zVTZaUklZJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDk2ODMzMjVISE9GUEJOOEZTRSZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUExMDQxOTUxUko4Rk9SNTVaUEdOJndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm9 0TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Vitamin B-12, (methylcobalmin and adenocobalamin) the natural (bioidentical) forms found in the body, help to reduce the effects of stress on the body and brain. Give prior to travel/ Vet visit, one droplet from a small needle 1 ml syringe into 1/4 Tsp. of Organic naturally sweetened applesauce or other well accepted moist food. Next day, one droplet; then after, every other day for 5 more days.

https://www.amazon.com/VeganSafe-B-12-Methylcobalamin-Adenosylcobalamin-Supplement/dp/B00RXEW7R0/ref=sr_1_7?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhMj44I3q-QIVnwytBh3n-wWsEAAYAiAAEgIvV_D_BwE&hvadid=177785812066&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031634&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=13653217213089370680&hvtargid=kwd-140640790142&hydadcr=21194_9690515&keywords=b12+global+healing&qid=1661709388&sr=8-7
Thank you very much, Diggie's Friend. We are definitely going to get those and see if they help improve the situation. Thank you!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

First off, :) I don't think you are trying to sell a.b.i., and I thank you for bringing it up, as hard of a blow as it is. Yes, the changes were shared with the vet right after when the squirrel stayed in bed for the next two days. But the vet said it could be the result of some blood drawn (for the blood test), as well as temporary effect of anesthesia/sedation (i.e., that the squirrel took it harder than usual). This vet knows little about squirrels, and there are no squirrel-knowledgeable vets in the area (what else is new). Certainly, the squirrel wasn't brought to the vet again -- what's the point?... the vet knows little, and just by observing the little guy he will see what we see. In order to run more tests another anesthesia will be needed, but now it's out of the question.
I, too, hope it will resolve, but it's just devastating.

Thanks for the comments and status report, Astra! These changes from the Squirrel's prior behavior are saddening. If this had to occur, at least it seems as if the Squirrel is not suffering! Wild animals, especially the prey animals such as Squirrels must live much of their lives in fear and sometimes in suffering until their often untimely demise. This little Squirrel is loved, protected and obviously deeply cared about and while he may not be running through he trees, it seems that he is probably quite content and happy! Again, I sincerely hope that there will be significant improvement in his status! Just a thought; even though most Vets share a common unfamiliarity with Squirrels, some may know more than they realize because they may care for common pet rodents such as rats and while obviously not the same, there are many similarities. Also, some specialists in Exotic Animal Care may have some Squirrel experience. Please keep posting updates. Does the little Squirrel have a name?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[astra]

Thanks for the comments and status report, Astra! These changes from the Squirrel's prior behavior are saddening. If this had to occur, at least it seems as if the Squirrel is not suffering! Wild animals, especially the prey animals such as Squirrels must live much of their lives in fear and sometimes in suffering until their often untimely demise. This little Squirrel is loved, protected and obviously deeply cared about and while he may not be running through he trees, it seems that he is probably quite content and happy! Again, I sincerely hope that there will be significant improvement in his status! Just a thought; even though most Vets share a common unfamiliarity with Squirrels, some may know more than they realize because they may care for common pet rodents such as rats and while obviously not the same, there are many similarities. Also, some specialists in Exotic Animal Care may have some Squirrel experience. Please keep posting updates. Does the little Squirrel have a name?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I, too, hope so. It is devastating. As for the name, I'd rather not post it for safety/privacy: this is not a squirrel friendly place, and just in case this vet and/or this vet office employee browsers here. Thank you very much! :grouphug