Stinky!

[Hannah327]

Okay I wanted to start a new thread here because I’m not sure if it’s life threatening or not. My babies started stinking last night! I read up on it a little this morning and I read something about maybe a uti? Their pee is clear, I change their bedding every morning. I seen where it was described as baby vomit and that was spot on! That’s exactly what my babies smell like. I gave them all a bath yesterday and last night and they weren’t smelling like that. I just wonder maybe if it brought it out or if it’s just a coincidence. Either way I need help on fixing it. I seen where one said dehydration could be the cause but I’ve been giving honey water between feedings except for the last feeding at 12:30 am. I fed them again a little bit ago and I’m going to give another honey water feeding in a few between feedings. I’ll probably do that all day.

[CritterMom]

You are likely smelling the difference between goats milk pee and formula pee. People perceive smells differently. My best friend can't smell anything, and I smell EVERYTHING. I have only raised single squirrels, and I changed their bedding twice a day because in my personal opinion, their pee made the whole house smell in half a day. And you have THREE. They are obviously now peeing into the bedding rather than having YOU induce them to pee and then throwing the results away. Now it is sitting in the bedding, and even worse, being heated up by the heating pad. I would suggest you get more bedding and crank up the washing machine because they are going to be producing more pee every day from this point on!

BTW, my frst squirrel was named Mister P, which was short for Mister PEEPANTS!

[Spanky]

Or could it be they just smell like squirrel urine? Which is not necessarily a pleasant smell. If there pee is clear, that is good but your babies at at the age, and if not very soon, they'll start peeing on their own. We usually potty them until eyes open (at least) and many of us continue beyond that simply because it helps control the "messes". I stop pottying when they are introduced the the adolescent cage (e.g. Critter Nation type cage).

[Hannah327]

That clears things up a lot for me thank y’all! I gave them a bath and changed their bedding they smell a ton better already! I guess I didn’t think of their urine smelling like that and that’s probably why I can’t get them to potty a lot of times before and after I feed. I also have another question. What about head shaking? I’ve noticed they started doing that today not a lot but enough for me to notice. They scratch every now and then but not constant. I was thinking maybe mites but I’ve checked them thoroughly and I didn’t see anything. Also I’ve had to ditch a syringe because it gave out on me and my baby girl aspirated pretty bad it gave me a big scare. She was acting a little lethargic but she’s still eating just not like she was. I’m pretty worried about her. I hear clicking but I can’t tell if it’s every breath I’ve listened probably 10 times.

[CritterMom]

If she has aspirated, you need to get on the phone with friends and see what sort of antibiotics you can lay your hands on. She may not need it but lethargy and not eating as much are not good signs. You are better off having antibiotics and not needing them than needing them and not having them.

See what you can find and list them here.

[Hannah327]

I have some ciprofloxacin? It’s in pill form.
I also I have this for my horse when he gets a cough or anything. I know I can’t give this to them but I wonder if I can put a drop on a rag and hang it over their cage? Enough for them to breathe it maybe? I was thinking it may help with all of their sneezing. But I want to get someone else’s opinion on it.

[CritterMom]

I have some ciprofloxacin?

That will certainly work. How big is the pill in milligrams and what is the weight of the baby?

Was this one of the syringes you got at Henrys? If not, stop using those. The disposable syringes like you get from the pharmacy are made for ONE USE and the rubber tip in them soon begins to stick and cause this. If they aspirate, drop the syringe and IMMEDIATELY hold them tail up and nose down to drain the fluid. I actually hold them in this position and put my lips over their nose and very gently suck to pull any fluid out. Lots of people won't do that but I would rather get a little mouthful of squirrel snots than aspirate a baby...

[Hannah327]

It is 500mg and no ma’am it wasn’t one I got from Henry’s. I threw it away! I need to order more from there because I thought I had enough until they started eating more. I almost sucked her little nose but I was afraid I would suck too hard as I know their lungs are so tiny! I’m happy I’m not the only one who has though of that my friend thought I was nuts but I guess I’m just nuts for my babies. Should I try to do this even now? As far as the weight goes, the scale I have doesn’t go past 100 grams so I’ll have to get another one. I used a kitchen scale yesterday and this morning but it’s hard to get a precise weight with it. It goes like 100g 125, 150, 175, 200. I’ve tried to estimate it even more by seeing how much they were gaining before. The one underlined is the one who aspirated.

[CritterMom]

Dosing sent by PM.

I calculated dosing based on 100 grams - it is close enough.

If she is still not eating properly and more lethargic than usual at the next feeding, I would go ahead and dose her. It is a very small amount so you will be dosing once a day. As I said, if you are not sure you understand where .04ml is on your syringe, ASK HERE - there are good guides online, too.

I can't comment on the horse meds other than to not chance it.

[Hannah327]

Also I forgot to mention, I had to move the heating pad back in their home because they got a little chill so I’ve been playing with it. I put it under a fleece blanket that’s been folded several times and they were still not warm enough it’s underneath the blanket now but not completely. Just under the first layer and then receiving baby blankets on top they are all laying on the heating pad on that first layer stretched out. Will they move if they get too hot?

[Mel1959]

Did you try turning the heating pad up to medium while it was placed under the bin? Sometimes you have to adjust the heat to a higher temperature based on how many blankets you have in the bin. Different manufacturers of heating pads probably operate on different wattages for each level of heat so they’re not all the same. The reason why we don’t recommend the heating pad inside the bin is because if they chew on the wire they will be electrocuted.

Try placing it under the bin and turn the heat up to medium. After about 15 minutes check the warmth inside the bin under the blankets where the babies are laying. It should feel warm, but not hot. If this feels like an acceptable temperature then leave it for another 15 minutes and recheck to be sure it hasn’t gotten too hot. You can add or remove blankets accordingly.

[Hannah327]

I couldn’t figure out how to pm you a picture but I’m using this for measuring where would be .04?

[CritterMom]

That IS a 1cc (1ml) syringe, right? Is the very last number on it 1.0?

Each of the tiny lines between the big numbers printed on the side of the barrel is .02ml. That means that .04ml would be two of the tiny lines. It is just over 1/16". Less than a drop of liquid.

Do NOT use a nipple on the syringe when dosing.

[Hannah327]

Yes ma’am it’s a 1 ml insulin syringe. I’m going to use it to dose it but the Henry’s 1 ml to feed it with. No nipple got that noted! Thanks! The first line doesn’t count then I’m guessing?

[CritterMom]

Yes ma’am it’s a 1 ml insulin syringe. I’m going to use it to dose it but the Henry’s 1 ml to feed it with. No nipple got that noted! Thanks! The first line doesn’t count then I’m guessing?

There are 5 tiny lines in between each of the big numbers. Each of those tiny lines are .02ml. All five of them = .10ml. The very first tiny line equals the amount of liquid that will be "lost" in the tip of the syringe. Think of that line as "0". The next one is .02, then .04, then.06, .08, and the next one will be the big line at ".10".

[Hannah327]

Also I am sorry for double posting but I have my mixture made up but still doesn’t look all the way dissolved can I heat it?

[CritterMom]

Also I am sorry for double posting but I have my mixture made up but still doesn’t look all the way dissolved can I heat it?

No. The "sludge" will never completely disappear and turn into a clear solution. Let it sit for a little bit and then each time you have to dose the babies, use the syringe to stir, stir, stir until everything is mixed evenly though the mixture and quickly draw up your dose of that fluid.

[Hannah327]

How long do I need to let it set? She needs it ASAP she isn’t doing good and I can’t get it to go through my syringe with the needle to measure

[Mel1959]

Remove the needle. Stir it well and draw it up. If you draw too much squirt some back till you are where you need to be for measurement.

[CritterMom]

YOU DON'T USE A NEEDLE!!!

Get the needle off the syringe. Use a plain syringe, just like you were going to feed them and didn't have any nipples to use. As long as all the lumps have been dissolved you can use the solution.

If you cannot take the needle off the insulin syringe, use the syringe to measure on one of your feeding syringes. Place them side by side and use something to mark where the .04 mark on the insulin syringe is onto your feeding syringe.

[Mel1959]

Yes, it’s hard to remove the needle from an insulin syringe. I use a butter knife and pry it off or a pair of pliers to pull it off.

[Hannah327]

I hope I got most of it down her she wasn’t eager to drink it at all. Their little eyes opened last night! The needle was not removable so I used pliers to try to pull it out and it broke off so I tried to get it as far down as I could and then filed the plastic around it to where it wasn’t rough. I tested it on my skin before I used it and the needle never poked me but it wasn’t smooth. A lot more smooth after I filed it though. I finally got it through the syringe and the .02honey water after a 100 tries and swirling it as I am trying to suck it through. I listened before I put her back up and I can’t tell if I here it now but she’s still not as active as my one girl but she’s always spastic lately. I listened to my boy too and I really can not tell if I hear it now. I can’t hear very well but my boyfriend is coming home in a day or two and he’s a nurse and he’s going to listen with his stethoscope but I know I can’t really afford a day or two.

[Mel1959]

Did you see my post about moving the heating pad to outside and under the bin, but increasing the setting to medium?

Sometimes the clicking is easier to hear when they’re inside their bin as it acts like an amplifier.

[CritterMom]

For future doses, PLEASE do what I suggested - use the marks on the insulin syringe as a guide to put a mark on one of the feeding syringes and use that. I am concerned that the remaining tip on the insulin syringe is going to filter out the sludge suspended in the water and as a result, she isn't going to get enough of the cipro. Please.

If a baby goes from active to lethargic, and eating eagerly to not wanting to eat at all, you are likely looking at aspiration pneumonia. The clicking is a late stage thing and if you can begin treating before you can hear that you will be better off. We can't see or hear your babies - you are the only one who can judge their BEHAVIOR and whether you are seeing a change in it.

[Hannah327]

Yes ma’am I’m going to do that. They are in a metal wash tub with a towel on bottoms then a blanket folded several time. So should I just put the blanket in there? So I’m going to put a mark on my Henry’s syringe and use that tomorrow. Do you think I should go ahead and treat my boy? None of them are really eating what they’re supposed to. They will be good one feeding and not eat much the next. My mom is going to listen but can you put your ear against them and hear it? Their little hearts are beating fast. Also I just ran into a HUGE problem! It’s feeding time and I spilled the last of their milk! I am so upset with myself right now I don’t know how I could be so clumsy. I made up a batch of milk to set in the fridge for at least 6 hours right before I did this. Is their anything I can do? They are hungry and I feel absolutely awful!!!! I have some unflavored pedialite should I give them that? And if so how much? Their regular feeding?

[CritterMom]

Which milk did you spill? The goats milk formula with the FV added in to it? You are only adding a small amount of the fox valley right now, right? The goats milk formula doesn't need to rest. If you were feeding them mostly or all FV I would tell you to hold off, but it is still a smallish amount. Swirl it around well and go ahead and feed them on schedule.

Again: a baby with aspiration pneumonia will FIRST show symptoms of being lethargic and not wanting to eat. The change in behavior is pretty obvious. The "clicking" noise that you hear in the CHEST (not the mouth or throat) is a later stage - it is caused by congestion developing in the chest. The sooner you can catch it - preferably BEFORE you hear clicking, the better. The drug you are using now, cipro, is the BEST drug you can use for this.

[Hannah327]

The milk with vf in it yes and I’m on the day 5, taking 2 teaspoons out and 2 of the vf in per recipe that I have been doubling. And they will eat good one feeding and not the next. You think it’s because the vf is digesting more slowly? I have one girl that is the biggest and she is very active and the other two will just try to crawl up my sleeve and lay there. The girl I treated this morning will squirm and she moves around in the bin a little but other than that she’s pretty lazy. When I pick her up she’s pretty limp for a minute or two idk if it’s because she was sleeping or not.

[CritterMom]

Go ahead and feed them. Yes, the FV digests more slowly.

[Hannah327]

I just bought these. I hope they can have them their teeth are growing fast and they are starting to chew on their legs and tails I’m scared they will puncture if I don’t get something. I know they’re supposed to start out on rodent blocks but I have lost my debit card I have looked everywhere for it I have to wait on a new one to arrive but is this okay until then?

[CritterMom]

The Lava Bites and the little carrots are okay. I wouldn't give the mineral block - they usually have a bunch of stuff they shouldn't have in them. The others are really just chew toys.

You do understand that by "blocks" we mean these: https://www.henryspets.com/diets/ - the first three items on the page. They are a complete diet for squirrels, not something to chew for fun or to wear teeth down.

We usually start giving them the food blocks at about 6-7 weeks old. They are to be their staple diet and you want to make them the first food that isn't formula that they ever see. Lots of people start giving nuts and junk and if you start them on THOSE you will have a bear of a time trying to get them to eat the healthy stuff.

And just an FYI - you don't need to spend a lot of money at the pet shop on chew toys. Pieces of indoor pine lumber - stuff that is NOT treated with anything, just plain old 1x2 indoor pine lumber from Home Depot or Lowes or in my case, from my scrap wood pile (!!) works GREAT. You can cut into small pieces, or even better, once they are in a cage, attach a length of it to the bars with zip ties so it is nice and stable and they will chew away. They love to chew the squared off edges off. Indoor pine is soft and they get to really shred it, which is quite satisfying for them!

[Hannah327]

Thank you! I think I finally got the right temp with the heating pad under their pail. I listened to them with a stethoscope tonight and I didn’t hear anything with any of them. I’m not so sure if the little girl is just more calm than the others and I was mistaking it with lethargic. I seen her trying to play a little bit ago with her brother and I feel like she wouldn’t be trying to play and chew on the chew toys if she was ill.so I don’t know if I need to continue with the medication if she doesn’t need it but I also was thinking it gave her a little energy maybe. My big girl though I have noticed that her face looks a bit big and smushy I guess is how I would describe it. Her face is a little big and it looks a little odd to me. She is the biggest of them and she has one eye open and the other partially. I don’t know if she’s just a lot more chunky in the face than the other two or what but it almost looks like she’s taken a fall but I know that she hasn’t. She didn’t eat a lot this last feeding so I’m hoping she does the next she didn’t poop that I know of so maybe that’s why. Thank you I have a wood pile also so I will definitely be looking for goodies for them. I know the squirrels in my hard LOVE maple trees! They have knawed the branches and bark like crazy!

[CritterMom]

Give her the meds this morning. Then get us some good, clear pics of all the babies, including the face of the one in question. Their faces change a lot as they develop, BTW.

[Hannah327]

I will definitely do that and I keep telling myself that they are growing and changing. And she’s a lot more chunky than the other two also so I was thinking her face just may be a little fat lol. But her eye is what keeps throwing me off about it all. It looks pretty mushed up I’m hoping it’s because the corners haven’t fully detached. My little boy finally opened his eyes all the way this morning! Well one of them. I was starting to wonder about him. The eye that had trauma to it is still shut but hopefully it will open sometime today and I can get a good look at it. I have been pretty worried that he’s going to be blind in that eye but I try not to think the worst. It healed very well i will say, I kept it clean and dry I put a little neosporin on it before I would feed so maybe it would soak up most of it before I put him back in his bin. It worked very well. When he does eventually open his eyes, can he see pretty good or is it real fuzzy for them for a while? I figured I won’t be able to tell if he’s blind in that eye until he’s a little older.

[CritterMom]

Please do not put neosporin on the eyes unless it is their special optic solution. And the eyes can take a while to fully open - don't force the issue, just leave them alone. They will be fuzzy for a few days.

[Hannah327]

Oh no I didn’t do it but a few times. His eye was pretty bloody when I first got him I think it was from the fall and a twig from the nest gouged him. That’s what I thought anyways but it healed very quickly. I cleaned the blood off and waited for it to scab and then treated it with the neosporin a couple of times. Just on the corner. I don’t think any got in his eye though he was probably a week or so old if that He has a scar on his eye and on the top of his head but I can’t really see it now that he has so much hair! They are all shaking their heads and I read that maybe it could be caused from trauma.

[CritterMom]

A perfectly healthy, normal baby squirrel looks like a bobble head doll. Like nearly all mammal babies, they are born with an enormous head that is way out of proportion to their body size and also very heavy. In addition, the muscles in the neck that control the head movement have not developed yet. This is, by the way, why "shaken baby syndrome" is a thing - giant, heavy head and no muscle ability to stabilize it. Shake a 10 year old and they automatically tighten those neck muscles to keep the head from flopping around. An human infant can't do that. Neither can a squirrel infant. In a few weeks they will be growing into their head and moving around and developing those muscles and all of that shaking will stop.

[Hannah327]

I’ve been super busy this morning washing bedding and their dishes and feeding and weighing and medicine so my mom took these after I was feeding each of them this here is baby G1

[Hannah327]

Here is baby G2! The one with the smushy face on the side that the eye is cracked. It’s almost flat looking at a certain angle. Idk.

[Hannah327]

And this is baby boy.

[CritterMom]

They look like adorable baby squirrels...

[Hannah327]

Thank you I’m trying everything I can to make sure they get and stay healthy! I still haven’t been able to go get a scale! Our roads are iced over and I live on top of a bluff with treacherous hills and gully’s. So I’ve been using the kitchen scale. They always act like they never get enough to eat! I was giving the little one 8 ml a feeding and I gave her 9 this time and looked at her belly and I did finally see a milk line. I gave the other two 9 ml but I’m scared to give them much more I don’t want to over feed. Should I feed until I see a milk line? They are getting so fat now it’s kind of hard to tell if their belly is full. I gave them all a dose this morning of cipro because I listened to all of them this morning and heard crackling in their chest! I know that nobody else has aspirated can they catch it from one another?

[Spanky]

I gave them all a dose this morning of cipro because I listened to all of them this morning and heard crackling in their chest! I know that nobody else has aspirated can they catch it from one another?

No, they will not catch AP from one another. It is fluid getting into their lungs that creates the condition in which bacteria thrive resulting in Aspiration Pneumonia (AP).

[Hannah327]

Okay I have given my babies their second dose of cipro and this is baby girls 3rd. Do I need to up their dose considering the weight gain? Baby boy doesn’t sound very good but the other two already sound better.

[CritterMom]

Nope. Stay right where you are.

[Hannah327]

Okay great! Idk what I would’ve done without this stethoscope! I would’ve never thought he had it as bad as he does until today he’s been very weak and just laying around while baby girl is jumping around trying to play

[Hannah327]

I hope you can read them. My hand writing isn’t the best I know.

[Mel1959]

You should always weigh them at approximately the same time each day, BEFORE you feed them and AFTER you’ve pottied them, if you’re still pottying them. The reason for this is you are not getting an accurate weight of their body mass when they have just eaten. Since the amount to feed at each feeding is based on body mass weight your amounts to feed will be skewed.

Have you gotten a new kitchen scale yet? They are sold at WalMart, Target, Bed Bath and Beyond, as well as online. If weather and roads are still preventing you from traveling to the store you might want to order off the internet.

[CritterMom]

OK, I just did some weighing...each ml of fluid weighs about 1 gram, so subtracting the number of mls of formula they had from their post feeding weight should be pretty close to what they weighed after eating.

By that calculation, Girl 1 should be eating between 1 and 10mls; Girl 2 and the boy between 8 and 12mls. So they are pretty close to what they should be eating.

If you are seeing mushy poops, try spacing the feedings out more. They are now about 5.5 weeks old (eyes opened the 10th).

Back in the olden days, the rule for squirrels was 0-1 week old, feed every hour. 2 weeks, 2 hours, 3 weeks, 3 hours and so on. Give them 5.5 hours and if you are still seeing mushy poop, go to 6.

I believe you are also seeing some "guppy mouth" from a couple by yur description. It is frustrating and nobody knows why they do it, but you need to snap them out of it before you continue to feed. Don't push formula into their mouths when they are doing that...

(Some of this came by PM to me from Hannah if you are wondering how the heck I got that info!)

[Hannah327]

I haven’t got a kitchen scale yet. One that’s not from the 70s anyways. Our roads are clear but I’m stuck at home with my son who is very sick. I can’t order one because I’m waiting on my debit card to get here still. I’m trying to get someone to go to Walmart and buy one for me but nobody wants to bring it an hour away. I’m an hour away from a Walmart as well as just about anyone I know. Thank you for weighing that for me and my babies. That helps me a lot! I waited 5 1/2 hours to feed we will see how the poop is. The sucking will not stop! It’s constant! Before or after I feed it doesn’t matter. They are sucking right now I can hear them. They will all 3 be sucked together in a circle I break them up as much as I can. I’ve tried separating them in blankets but it never works for long now because they’re everywhere. I have had this problem since day 1 and now it’s out of control! Thankfully though they aren’t scabbing like they were when they were younger. As far as the guppy mouth, I tried to make her snap out of it every time I finally get to where I just put her down and feed another one and go back to her and then she will eat just fine.

[Mel1959]

If they are continuing to suck you may need to separate them. They can become permanently disfigured and have permanent damage from the sucking.When they suck like that is it time for a feeding? The relentless sucking usually indicates they are not being fed enough or frequently enough.

[CritterMom]

If they are continuing to suck you may need to separate them. They can become permanently disfigured and have permanent damage from the sucking.When they suck like that is it time for a feeding? The relentless sucking usually indicates they are not being fed enough or frequently enough.

It can also become a habit, like thumb sucking. Mel1959 is right though, it can become life threatening if it goes on. They grow teeth...

[Hannah327]

They have teeth already and they have done it since day one. Even when they eat the full 7% they will be knocked out and then wake up sucking. Around feeding time or even sometimes after. There for a while that’s why I was scared I wasn’t feeding enough. But I honestly don’t think that’s the case. They seem very lethargic after they eat but I’ve been thinking they were milk drunk. I hope that’s the case. They usually go straight to sleep after a feeding. They are all still sneezing pretty bad and I’ve tried to rule out a lot of things. I’m barely even putting any detergent when I was their bedding too and no fabric softener or dryer sheets. I don’t know what else it could be. They have done it since I’ve had them and at first I thought it was because they had been rained on before I got them. How should I try and go about separating them? I only have one heating pad and enclosure. Although I fed them at 9 and they only ate 7-8 ml and now they’re up sucking.

[Hannah327]

To add to the post above when they were sucking a few ago I didn’t think they got enough to eat. I watched them for a minute and the girls were hopping around playing and biting each other. Then went to sucking again and baby boy normally sucks on himself unless one of his sisters beat him to it. I went to warm up a little bit more milk and when I came back they were asleep. Separated.

[Mel1959]

I’m not sure what you have them in but could you make up some sort of make-shift dividers out of cardboard or something?

[Hannah327]

I could make something like that but I thought they couldn’t be around any cardboard. I thought that dehydrated them? Maybe that’s when they were younger but I’ve wrapped my boy in gauze and made a baby sock thing for him but he won’t stay in any of it.

[Mel1959]

Cardboards not ideal, but neither is being suckled. If you could come up with something other than cardboard that would be great. Of course, if he’s self suckling it’s gonna be of little help, but it still is better than being suckled by the others as well.

I found a Hefty plastic bin at Walmart some time ago that had a plastic divider with holes in it that was very useful in keeping my little ones separated…..until they were able to climb of course. :tap

This is the inside of the bin and this is a link to what I’m referring to. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hefty-Divider-for-18G-28G-or-72QT-113QT-storage-totes-10-Pack/370122949

[Hannah327]

Thank you I have plexiglass with holes in it I’m going to try! I had to have it to separate my bearded dragons

[CritterMom]

You can keep them separate when you aren't around, but you can also give them time to snuggle together if you can sit and monitor them to keep them from going after the boy. Letting them have the social experience while protecting him is the very best way to go.

[Hannah327]

That’s what I’ve been doing I love watching them snuggle and play together. And I know they enjoy it. But goes after the girls too and the girls go after each other. I’ve tried to keep them unlatched the best I could throughout the day and night. I thought they would grow out of it or stop after they were getting a good amount of the fox valley but I think it has just become a habit. Maybe if I keep them from doing it for a while by separating them they will stop doing it the times when they’re together. I will hear them squeak and make noises and I’ll run over there thinking something is wrong and they will be asleep. Dreaming I suppose. I hope so anyways.

[Hannah327]

Okay so I have worked hard on rigging something up today. My plexiglass with holes in it were too little. I moved them to a lot bigger temporary container. Will this work for about a week? Will they be okay like this and should I turn the heating pad on high? I’ve had it on medium and it’s barely warm but they have been huddled together until I just separated them. They can still go further down if they need to get away from the heat. They were scattered out when I had it on high earlier and we down by the front of the cage away from the heating pad. I’m just worried about them getting too cold since they won’t have each other’s body heat. I don’t plan on leaving them like this during the day unless I’m not going to be around to monitor them.

[CritterMom]

Yes, if it is cool in there bump the heating pad up to medium. Use your hand to determine if everyone is warm, not the dial on the heating pad.

[Hannah327]

I watched them last night before I went to bed with them separated and they were stressing really bad. My big girl panicked really bad and did a flop for about 10s peeing on herself so I left them together all night. Am I seeing separation anxiety?