10 days of diarrhea

[ConfusedMuse]

It was recommended that I start a new thread. Last night, I thought we were good and there was no point, but now we're back to square one.

About Lolly: she was rescued @1-2weeks. One ear was mangled, the other degloved. Both wounds healed nicely but she has no ears. A minor scratch turned out to have fly strike that was missed. Treated orally and topically with Capstar 2x but some larvae must have remained because it caused a foreign-body cyst on her thigh (I would say "abscess" except it was never hot to the touch and seemed completely encapsulated. On advice from vet, we left it alone. It grew along with her but @7-1/2 or 8 weeks, she bit it open. With care, it seemed to be healing well, scabbing over, no complications.

@6 weeks, introduced her to Henry's and Mazuri. When she was eating regularly, introduced her to broccoli, then Brussels sprouts, then lettuce, mushrooms and snap peas between 7 weeks and 9 (at a rate of one new veggie about every three days), and gave her an old maple log w/bark (baked @280 for at least five hours). @9 weeks, gave her a fresh dogwood branch (thoroughly rinsed) with "berries" on it. I had already been giving her a tiny, wild rose hip every few days for at least a week. At that time (around 9 weeks) she was taking 18-24ml formula 3x daily by syringe and about another 6ml from a bowl (trying to teach her to lap). She was and still is uninterested in water bowl or bottle. At that time, she weighed >370 grams (weighed mid-week @8-1/2).

@9 weeks (when I introduced the dogwood and increased her veggies from 1 tsp each to about 1T each) the trouble began.

First it was "pudding poo" 10 days ago and a rehabber recommended canned pumpkin, which I gave her around 1/2t daily. It was accompanied by reduced appetite and the rehabber thought she might be trying to wean because she started turning formula away after 9-12cc but I don't think so, because she started (no pun intended) squirreling her food away, including block and veggies, eating very little. The latter might have been seasonal behavior, but then 5 days ago (on Saturday morning) the pudding poo turned into "egg drop soup"-textured poo: very watery/slimy, mostly a medium brown, no strong odor.

I started hydrating with a sugar/salt solution on Sunday @ 3-6cc every 2-3 hours (whatever she would take) and gave her only Henry's block (no formula for a day) and banana (again on advice). She quit eating the pumpkin. The diarrhea did not abate and--while not strictly lethargic-- she laid around most of the day looking forlorn and miserable.

I went ahead and offered her formula again on Monday (but stopped adding cream to the Esbilac), but she turned it away after 3cc and refused blocks, too. I introduced banana/baby rice cereal/formula gruel, again on advice, and continued offering hydration. She perked up but was very agitated/angry. She did eat the gruel at least once per day and drank hydration solution but, again, diarrhea didn't abate.

Tuesday, was given dosage to give her bismuth. Administered @4 hours. After 2 doses, stools firmed and she took 12cc formula. Gave third dose @8 hours, just to make sure. She might not have urinated on Tuesday.

This morning (Wednesday) @7am, she was chipper and took 18cc formula (yay!) so I did not dose her with bismuth. I did stimulate her to pee even though she's old enough not to need help with that because I wanted to check that she was able to urinate. Not a lot of output but it was clear in color and she peed on her own about 2 hours later so I have not offered hydration. Gave her Henry's block (I'm not sure if she ate it or hid it because she took it into her nest). By 10, the watery diarrhea was back. Sigh. Dosed with bismuth at 10:30. Gave BRF at 11. Still watery. Dosed @2pm. Still watery. She has urinated 2x today so I am have not offered hydration.

I am told by some that she should only receive formula 2x daily. This makes me nervous since she isn't eating much and has been dehydrated. I do wait 5-6 hours in between, which seems like an adequate amount of time to digest formula. If she doesn't get her mid-afternoon feeding, she climbs the walls and chews on the bars and generally is very agitated/angry, even if I offer BRF, hydration solution or Henry's block.

I put live-culture acidophilus in everything (hydration solution, gruel, formula) and have always added it to formula. She's gets about 1/4-1/2 tab daily (adult human dose is 3-4 tabs 3x daily, to compare).

On Tuesday, she weighed 360 grams.

The overview is this: she is now 10 weeks and 4 days old. She has had little appetite for at least 10 days and this escalated over the last 5 days. She has had loose stools for 10 days, and this has escalated to watery diarrhea for 5 days. Bismuth helped yesterday but doesn't seem to be doing any good today (yet). She has lost at least 10 grams (or gained nothing for 10 days). I do not know what caused it (breaking the cyst, introducing new foods, introducing tree branches, etc) but I need to get a handle on it SOON. I'm concerned the half-healed sore so close to her bottom could become infected from the poo.

I will confirm, to those who question, that she is indeed an EGS, judged age 10 weeks 4 days estimated from time eyes opened (recorded as 5 weeks). She did, indeed, weigh about 400 grams at age 9 weeks (this is an estimate based on the fact that she was 370 3 days before her 9th week-- originally I said 400 grams at 8 weeks but checked my records when it was questioned).




Lolly @ 5 weeks:

319677

Lolly yesterday (10-1/2 weeks):

319678

[HRT4SQRLS]

I have a question and I think it’s a very important question.
Think back to when this started. Is it possible that you started a new can of Esbilac at that time?
We need to rule that out. There are some vague warnings about problems with Esbilac at this time. They are unconfirmed at this time but several of us have noticed that we are seeing more and more babies with diarrhea and failure to thrive amount babies on Esbilac.

I can’t detect anything that you did wrong. Let’s make sure it isn’t the formula.

I find it odd that a healthy baby that was doing well on formula from Week 2- Week 9 suddenly has unrelenting diarrhea.
Definitely, let’s rule out the formula as a problem.

[Spanky]

Diarrhea and gas are potential side effects probiotics (acidophilus). Esbilac already has probiotics added as well. It seems to me she is getting a lot of probiotics for a squirrel not on antibiotics (and I have been seeing a lot of mentions of probiotics being given (or recommended) for squirrels not on anti-biotics... this is all recently adn new to me.

I'd remove all the branches and things brought in from outdoors (JMO).

[HRT4SQRLS]

Just a note about the ears. I think she is rather cute. :grin2 There is an interesting story on TSB about squirrels missing ears. It was several years ago. I could be wrong on this but I think it was in Colorado.
The poster noted that there were several generations of squirrels in her yard missing ears. Apparently it was a genetic anomaly. Some has small ears and others had missing ears. I thought that was an interesting phenomenon. :)

[ConfusedMuse]

I have a question and I think it’s a very important question.
Think back to when this started. Is it possible that you started a new can of Esbilac at that time?

I did. I always check the date. I think my next-to-last can was dated Sept, 2022 (it might have been '23). This can (opened right around that time) is May, 2023. It has occurred to me the past few days that it might be the formula, but I also ran out of cream (darn Covid, darn college town) and store was out so I added whole milk yogurt (but she was getting whole milk yogurt in her formula from 2 weeks-5 weeks so I don't think this was the problem-- but I can't rule it or the Esbilac lot out). Good point! I hate to waste the can, but I guess I can keep it frozen and if the new can doesn't improve her, I can use it when... Oh. Lol, I guess I figured this would be her last can before weaning haha. So I guess maybe I can freeze it until next spring if it isn't the culprit because people keep giving me rescues and I can't always get them to a rehabber immediately.

Lolly was a special case. Thanks to Covid and a hurricane, local rehabbers were turning babies away... And there was every reason to believe she wouldn't survive. So I kept her and cared for her and was shocked when she thrived and I've come to love her dearly. If she can't be released, she will always have a home with me.


Diarrhea and gas are potential side effects probiotics (acidophilus). Esbilac already has probiotics added as well. It seems to me she is getting a lot of probiotics for a squirrel not on antibiotics (and I have been seeing a lot of mentions of probiotics being given (or recommended) for squirrels not on anti-biotics... this is all recently adn new to me.

I'd remove all the branches and things brought in from outdoors (JMO).



Acidophilus is only one "probiotic" of many. I'm not sure which Esbilac adds but everyone has said to add acidophilus so I do. I'm a big believer in it for humans, too, as a daily supplement. It is absolutely indicated for diarrhea, whether or not an antibiotic is involved.

I haven't increased her acidophilus during her lifetime, except that as she drinks more formula she gets more because I add it to a batch (1/4 tablet to 1 cup formula)-- so her body weight increased as her formula-intake increased. As stated, the human dosage is 12-16 tablets daily and she receives about [actually, I guess it's more like 1/8+ tablet since a batch lasts more than a day, even wasting it by offering her what she doesn't want and throwing it out] spread out over several feedings (3x formula @<9cc which is all she took the last few days plus formula in the gruel). I would doubt that this was triggered that way, since she tolerated it well for eight weeks of care.

I have removed the dogwood branch and cleaned the cage thoroughly of hidden food. I hesitate to remove the maple log because she needs to chew/scratch/climb but you're right: I should take her back to ground zero and then add things back in carefully!!!



Just a note about the ears. I think she is rather cute. :grin2 There is an interesting story on TSB about squirrels missing ears. It was several years ago. I could be wrong on this but I think it was in Colorado.
The poster noted that there were several generations of squirrels in her yard missing ears. Apparently it was a genetic anomaly. Some has small ears and others had missing ears. I thought that was an interesting phenomenon. :)

And that is very cool!!! Thanks for that. I always figured that if she's unreleasable and I have to take her with me when I move out of state next year, I will maintain that she is an earless North American brush-tailed Tree Rat, pedigreed-- because who ever heard of an earless squirrel???

It just goes to show that we never know everything there is to know about G*D's green earth :gigg

[ConfusedMuse]

Update: yet again, after three doses of bismuth, her stools have firmed. She is back up to 24cc of formula this evening (+1. a.m. serving of BRF gruel and 1 Henry's block). Her agitation has calmed down significantly.

Reviewing my memory, her appetite started declining before I opened a new can of Esbilac, but at that time she was receiving 4 syringe feedings. I remember we thought it was her starting to wean herself (@8-1/2weeks) so I reduced her to 3x daily. When her appetite continued to decline, I opened a new can, thinking maybe the old one was going stale. The reduced appetite *might* have been seasonal, but the loose stools did start at the same time I opened the new can. I purchased a different lot# this evening but didn't have time to make it and rest it before she went to bed so I'll start her on it tomorrow. It is still a different lot# from the can she was on before this started so I don't know if it will be better but hopefully it will help.

Also reviewing my memory, the maple log was added around the time her appetite started waning although I think it was the week before. I will remove it just in case.

Another possibility is the gravel paper I attached to her cage ladder although, again, it was about a week before the loose stools started. It's for birds. It says it's made with seashells for "added calcium" and sea shells are on the food pyramid list.

If she's getting too much calcium because of the gravel paper, would that causes diarrhea?


Tomorrow, I will remove everything that was added in the last two weeks and start her on the new can of formula.

Do you think I should dilute the formula for 24 hours when starting the new can?

I don't want her to get constipated, but I think I will give her a morning dose of bismuth instead of waiting to see how her BM is, and then discontinue after that if she stays on target. I worry that she'll cycle again like she did today and the yo-yoing can't be good.

Is she old enough for 2 Henry's blocks/daily? I'd really like to keep her on just formula (maybe 1x BRF, too) and blocks for a few days until I know her tummy is on track. I'm not sure if she will eat them. She prefers reducing them to crumbs lol

[Spanky]

Acidophilus is only one "probiotic" of many. I'm not sure which Esbilac adds but everyone has said to add acidophilus so I do. I'm a big believer in it for humans, too, as a daily supplement. It is absolutely indicated for diarrhea, whether or not an antibiotic is involved.

I haven't increased her acidophilus during her lifetime, except that as she drinks more formula she gets more because I add it to a batch (1/4 tablet to 1 cup formula)-- so her body weight increased as her formula-intake increased. As stated, the human dosage is 12-16 tablets daily and she receives about [actually, I guess it's more like 1/8+ tablet since a batch lasts more than a day, even wasting it by offering her what she doesn't want and throwing it out] spread out over several feedings (3x formula @<9cc which is all she took the last few days plus formula in the gruel). I would doubt that this was triggered that way, since she tolerated it well for eight weeks of care.

I only singled-out Acidophilus since it was referenced in the thread. Using a low end of 125lbs for a human weight and the high end 16 capsules as the daily dose, that would be 1 capsule for about every 8 pounds. So I suppose 1/8th a capsule would be about right for a 1lb (454gm) squirrel on the upper range, but consider there is probiotics added to the Esbilac as well. Like humans, some squirrels may not tolerate supplemental probiotics as well as others and diarrhea can be a side effect of probiotic therapy. I don't disagree that probiotics are indicated for diarrhea, but my grandfather ingrained into me decades ago "moderation in all things".

I am reinforcing my argument not to be argumentative, only to suggest that decreasing the amount of probiotics might be something to consider if the other changes do not result in positive results. :thumbsup

[Spanky]

If she's getting too much calcium because of the gravel paper, would that causes diarrhea?
Usually if they are getting too much calcium their stools will be light / white in color.


Do you think I should dilute the formula for 24 hours when starting the new can?

I would not dilute the formula.


Is she old enough for 2 Henry's blocks/daily?

Yes.

[HRT4SQRLS]

It really is normal for them to start declining formula meals as they get older. Refusing a 4th feeding at 8.5
weeks is normal. Most will gradually go to two feedings a day and then will even start refusing the morning or evening formula as they self wean. I give it to them as long as they will take it but eventually they don’t want formula any longer. Sometimes I even put it in a bowl and they might takes it or might not. Of course there’s always the one that wants formula until they go to college. :grin2

I find it suspect that the diarrhea started when the new can was opened. Could you post the lot number of the can? There are some specific lot numbers that were sent for testing due to problems. It would be very interesting if you have that same lot number.

[HRT4SQRLS]

I will be especially interested if your lot # is any of the following. 3510E….0421E….0751E

These are some of the lot numbers that were problematic. They were tested for nutritional qualities and found to be acceptable BUT that doesn’t mean there isn’t some other problem with them.

[ConfusedMuse]

Okay... My lot# isn't on the list. However, THANK YOU. I almost wasted another $30 because the can I just purchased tonight is 0421E. I will return it and try a different store!

Suspect formula:

319693

[ConfusedMuse]

Where can I find a list of problematic lot #s, please?

I guess she will get one more feeding from this lot until I find one that's not on that list :tap

[HRT4SQRLS]

Oh wow. I agree I wouldn’t use it. I would return it. Those are the only 3 lots that have been tested that I’m aware of. The group doing the testing has tentatively concluded that there isn’t a problem. They think because the lots tested meet the nutritional requirements that it must be isolated user issues. I’m not convinced of that. We are seeing too many babies with problems like diarrhea and failure to thrive right here on TSB so I’m definitely not ready to give them a pass.

Frankly, IMO they are an unscrupulous company and I will never use their products again. Two years ago they kills hundreds and hundreds of babies with their defective product. They never admitted there was a problem but the proof was in the lifeless bodies of those they killed. Two years ago the problems were widespread. This time there are rumors of a ‘problem’ and as of this time they have not been confirmed.

For those of us that won’t ever use their product again, we won’t be QC’ing their product for them with lifeless bodies. Again, your problem might be totally unrelated to this possible ‘problem’ but I do find it interesting that this diarrhea started when you changed cans.

The wildlife group doing the testing is https://www.ewildagain.org/
They have extensive notes regarding formula from the past and present if this would interest you.

[ConfusedMuse]

@spanky

I'm not going to argue for argument's sake, but this is an important dialogue: I'm not annoyed or close-minded, promise! I hope I don't come across that way.

Anyway, while the "probiotics" craze is new, acidophilus is not. My mother supplemented me as a child on doctor's advice and I am 52. I supplemented my kids, also on advice from doctor. 25 years ago, when my cat had resistant diarrhea (vet tried antibiotic and metronidazole to no avail) he was given acidophilus. Back then, there really was only one brand. There were no shelf-stable, it was all live. I use the same brand, today. My grandma used to call them "Bug Pills" because they had good "bugs" (bacteria) lol.

I'm not sure that Lolly would suddenly react to a supplement she has been receiving since infancy, but I did have to switch for a few days to a shelf-stable. I can't remember if it coincided with the watery diarrhea but when the loose stools started, she actually *hadn't* gotten a supplement for about 5 days.

I gave her the shelf-stable stuff because I suspected that lack of supplement had triggered the diarrhea and I couldn't get the live-culture right away. On Monday, I got the live and switched her back that evening.

It is important, so I reiterate that she received supplement throughout 8 weeks and tolerated it fine, and the diarrhea started while she was not being supplemented. Occam's razor says that if acidophilus is associated with her illness, it was the lack thereof, rather than too much :grin3

I really hesitate to pull her off of it again but it's possible that the brand-switch may have worsened her condition. If it did, then she should improve now that she's back on what she was raised on. If she does not, then I'm willing to pull it for 24 hours (but if she worsens again, I will slap those bad boys --I mean "good bugs"-- right back in :grin3).

[ConfusedMuse]

Oh wow. I agree I wouldn’t use it. I would return it. Those are the only 3 lots that have been tested that I’m aware of. The group doing the testing has tentatively concluded that there isn’t a problem. They think because the lots tested meet the nutritional requirements that it must be isolated user issues. I’m not convinced of that. We are seeing too many babies with problems like diarrhea and failure to thrive right here on TSB so I’m definitely not ready to give them a pass.

Frankly, IMO they are an unscrupulous company and I will never use their products again. Two years ago they kills hundreds and hundreds of babies with their defective product. They never admitted there was a problem but the proof was in the lifeless bodies of those they killed. Two years ago the problems were widespread. This time there are rumors of a ‘problem’ and as of this time they have not been confirmed.

For those of us that won’t ever use their product again, we won’t be QC’ing their product for them with lifeless bodies. Again, your problem might be totally unrelated to this possible ‘problem’ but I do find it interesting that this diarrhea started when you changed cans.

The wildlife group doing the testing is https://www.ewildagain.org/
They have extensive notes regarding formula from the past and present if this would interest you.

The formula issue has been a roller coaster. I never know which to trust. First it was FV killing pinkies 5-6 years ago, so I used Esbilac. Then the Esbilac issue 2 years ago so I bought FV. Then FV issues again so I bought Esbilac. Now... *Shakes head* I don't know which will be safe and which won't, from month-to-month and year-to-year.

I'm given little ones to care for until they can be transported at least twice a year (Lolly is the exception since she's been with me all along). What a nightmare it would be to lose them because of such idiocy from manufacturers.

I would switch to FV but by the time I get it, she will probably start weaning herself lol.

[HRT4SQRLS]

The formula issue has been a roller coaster. I never know which to trust. First it was FV killing pinkies 5-6 years ago, so I used Esbilac. Then the Esbilac issue 2 years ago so I bought FV. Then FV issues again so I bought Esbilac. Now... *Shakes head* I don't know which will be safe and which won't, from month-to-month and year-to-year.

I'm given little ones to care for until they can be transported at least twice a year (Lolly is the exception since she's been with me all along). What a nightmare it would be to lose them because of such idiocy from manufacturers.

I would switch to FV but by the time I get it, she will probably start weaning herself lol.

I know. It maddening. I also agree that she is so close to weaning that switching to FV wouldn’t seem reasonable at this point. I think many are concluding that for pinkies the Goat Milk Recipe is the best choice. As they get older transitioning to FV 20:50 seems reasonable. I’m sure some out there will disagree but as far as I know there haven’t been problems with FV 20:50. A lot of rehabbers are using a mix of more than one formula so as to cover for any deficiencies in either component. I haven’t had any problems with FV20:50 but of course I wouldn’t give it to a pinkie.
FoxValley 32:40 has been problematic for pinkies for quite a while.

[ConfusedMuse]

Okay, so, the only Esbilac locally are lots you said were being investigated and the lot that I suspect may have triggered her diarrhea. FV is back-ordered and I can't get it until October 4, by which time she will definitely be old enough to wean.

I think I'm going to switch her to the temporary goat's milk formula. It's it really just Goat Milk, Whipping Cream and yogurt?

Questions: I have powdered goat milk (should I reconstitute before measuring?) and plain yogurt. Should it really be vanilla yogurt? Doesn't that have sugar in it? Or is that why it should be vanilla? Should I mix it weak for the first 24 hours, or mix it with the Esbilac I want to get her off of, to transition?

This will probably only be for about 2 weeks and she is taking Henry's blocks (mostly). I just need to keep her on formula until she decides to drink water.

Thanks!

[HRT4SQRLS]

Okay, so, the only Esbilac locally are lots you said were being investigated and the lot that I suspect may have triggered her diarrhea. FV is back-ordered and I can't get it until October 4, by which time she will definitely be old enough to wean.

I think I'm going to switch her to the temporary goat's milk formula. It's it really just Goat Milk, Whipping Cream and yogurt?

Questions: I have powdered goat milk (should I reconstitute before measuring?) and plain yogurt. Should it really be vanilla yogurt? Doesn't that have sugar in it? Or is that why it should be vanilla? Should I mix it weak for the first 24 hours, or mix it with the Esbilac I want to get her off of, to transition?

This will probably only be for about 2 weeks and she is taking Henry's blocks (mostly). I just need to keep her on formula until she decides to drink water.

Thanks!

Yes, you would reconstitute the goat milk powder per label instructions and then make the GM recipe with the heavy cream and yogurt. I use vanilla because it is received well. Some of the other funky flavors might be rejected so it’s just easier to use vanilla. I suppose you could use plain unflavored yogurt. We use full fat to get the highest nutritional value from it. There are very few full fat yogurts on the shelves. I also try to not buy the ones without artificial sweeteners. Invariable I wind up getting StoneyField but others have used others like Greek yogurt.

I wouldn’t switch immediately. Mix your Esbilac formula and Goat Milk Formula 50:50 to start and then eliminate the Esbilac. For younger babies we do a slower transition… 75:25….50/50….25:75. You can certainly do this if you’d like but because this is an older girl, I think the rapid transition will be fine.
She already has GI issues but the mix will help her to accept the taste as well.

I agree that she is soon to wean so buying FV doesn’t seem like a good plan at this point. It will just be interesting to see if her GI smooths out when on the GM.

[HRT4SQRLS]

A very experienced rehabber here has tweaked the GMF and is mixing 3:2:1 (3 parts GM with 2 parts heavy cream and 1 part yogurt. I would go with that.

[ConfusedMuse]

I removed the cream from her Esbilac on Tuesday because I was concerned that the extra dairy might have been making things worse-- so maybe I'll increase the cream to the tweaked version as I'm increasing the GMF so it isn't as sudden.

A rehabber/squirrelfriend recommended putting Nutrical in her formula when she was rescued and underweight. This might be why she turned into Lollysaurus Gigantus. I stopped using it when I realized what percentile she was, and her growth slowed, but I figured she didn't need it anymore. I think I will add it to this homemade formula just to make sure she's taking all her vitamins :grin3

Thanks for your help, and yes-- if she starts improving, I will let you know so you can add this lot to the list. I suspect that they changed a supplier or their supplier changed a source on an ingredient and ALL lots past a certain date are now bad.

My ex was a Food Marketing director/vp so I learned that happens all the time. Since the ingredients, themselves, don't change, it's hard to make an accusation stick when it suddenly starts making you sick. Imagine... Say that their original supplier gave them D3 sourced from mushrooms but the new one gives them D3 sourced from fish, for instance: ingredients are the same, nutrition is the same, they don't even know that it changed since it's all "D3", but someone allergic to fish would react... Or switching microcrystalline cellulose base out for corn starch in the nutritional supplements is very common. "D3" doesn't actually list everything in the supplement. It's next to impossible to track down the change that caused the problem.

Having many food allergies, I know aaaaall about the feelings of anger and betrayal when the *one* food that never made you sick so you had that one staple you could trust sells out. When Silk started making almond milk, I pretty much lost my last source for dairy-free milk because of trace contaminants. Why would anyone use the same machines to process tree nuts if it's a product that normally only crazy allergic people drink? :tap I didn't die but I felt like I was going to.

[HRT4SQRLS]

That’s a very interesting insight into the ingredients of food products. That is exactly what was suspected during the last Esbilac nightmare.

I think we will see a lot more of this as supply lines are interrupted during these crazy times. Pricing will be an important part of this as manufactures seek out cheaper alternatives. Unfortunately it is usually about the bottom line…. money.

[ConfusedMuse]

Update:

We're beginning day 12 since pudding poo; day 7 of watery diarrhea.

I started goat's milk formula yesterday and she's had 3 feedings since. I'm still mixing it 5/2. I don't think she likes it much because she turns it away by 18cc. I'll increase GMF % this afternoon but I was hoping to see some improvement by now.

I give her a dose of bismuth every 4-5 hours and make sure one coincides with each syringe feeding. I know the smart thing to do would be to wean her (she'll be 11 weeks on Sunday) but she *literally* goes hangry-ballistic if she doesn't get formula 3x daily. I don't believe in "tough love" when it comes to food, if I can avoid it (I mean, other than withholding snacks that aren't good for her-- she hasn't even had any fruit, yet, until I started the banana for the diarrhea).

Removed the maple log. Now all she has (new) is the gravel paper and one of those inexpensive stacked-wood hanging rat chew toys from the pet store. Those go next.

Other than formula 3x, I give her a Henry's block 2x day but she mostly just shreds them. I offer her Mazuri but she just buries them. She gets about 6cc of baby rice cereal w/banana slice 2x daily. If she's still hangry I'll give her a slice of mushroom.

She passes a good amount of clear urine 2-3x daily. Poo is still a little soft, even with Pepto, and it turns into diarrhea each time she eats (anything).

I weighed her today. Before this started she was (presumably) around 400 grams. On (Tuesday?) she was 360. I'm fairly sure that was an accurate weighing. Today she's 388 so I suspect the weight loss may have been dehydration? She may weigh more than 388: she is getting better enough with the bismuth that she preferred to flip the bowl over and play in it so it was difficult to get an actuate weight (it fluctuated between 381-394 every time she wiggled but landed on 388 most often). This is a good sign that she is gaining some weight back, but we still haven't knocked the poo juice because it comes back between doses of bismuth :sad

I'm out of ideas. If the goat milk doesn't improve her by tomorrow, is this a sign that she might have an infection? The cyst-wound where she bit it open was still scabby when the watery diarrhea started. The loose bowels started not long (a week?) after she opened it up. I don't feel the scab anymore but there is something hanging from that thigh, tangled up in fur. I don't know if it's feces or from the wound. It's hard, so I soak it three times a day and try to work it without pulling. She only allows me about a minute, so I can't get it soft enough and she won't hold still long enough for "Grandma" to focus her reading glasses to see what it is.

How would I know if she has an infection? How do you take a squirrel temp? I guarantee she won't hold still for me to stick anything up her butt lol.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Yeah, this is a problem. I have seen a few cases on TSB in the past where the only resolution to diarrhea was weaning them and getting them onto solid food. At that age we can certainly start thinking about that but it’s very difficult when they want the formula so bad. I do think I would start introducing healthy veggies to start the transition. I would give her either kale or sugar snap peas and see what happens. These are healthy greens so let’s start there.

We might need to consider treating her for a GI parasite as well. I find it so strange that she was completely fine for so long and then BAM … GI train wreck. :shakehead I would be happy to send you metronidazole if you want to consider it in the future. You could at least have it on hand if this persists.

I don’t think the wound that she had has anything to do with the diarrhea but we need to make sure the abscess is gone. Based on her activity level and willingness to eat, I don’t think she has any systemic issues from that.

Give it a little longer on the GMF and see if there is any improvement. I would start giving veggies though to start the transition to solid food. We usually start that after they are eating the blocks well around 7 weeks anyway. She is quite the mystery though. I wish I knew for sure if the can of Esbilac started this. :tap

[ConfusedMuse]

I started her on broccoli and Brussels sprouts (about a teaspoon of each) at 8 weeks. Since she did well, I added mushroom, lettuce, sugar snap peas and wild foods in small amounts (dogwood berry and rose hips). It was when I introduced dogwood and at the same time increased the broccoli/Brussels sprouts that the watery diarrhea started and I was advised to withhold veggies and give her only BRF & Henry's until it resolved. Since it's not resolving, I (and probably she) will be happy to reintroduce veggies. I will not give her gassy veggies until it's resolved.

Although I was preparing her to wean, I am mostly holding off until she starts drinking water. I know they don't drink that much, but I'm currently unemployed and hang out with her all day so I notice if she even dips her nose in it and she doesn't lol.

Her appetite isn't great. She is hangry and demands to be fed but then doesn't eat much. Her energy level is much better since hydrating and starting the bismuth and she is eating more, but miss a dose and her appetite goes down again along with BM solidity.

I'm not sure about the likelihood of a parasite but it's possible. I did put the fresh dogwood branch in, but I rinsed it under a hose for at least five minutes. I don't think the maple log could have because I baked it for many, many hours. Let me look and see if I have metronidazole. If I do, it's many years expired, though.

It may be time to call the vet but it's so difficult to catch her if she escapes and the trip terrifies me that she'll get hurt. I was trying to find a harness for that possibility but have returned two that were too large or too bulky for her and may end up just trying to make one. Hey! Maybe I can collect a stool sample!

[ConfusedMuse]

Yes!!! Vet agreed to test her stool without seeing her. Sample successfully collected. Unfortunately, they send it out AND they're closed on Saturday so I'm not sure how long it will be before I know.

So, I still think there is the possibility of a bacterial infection. The "hard thing" matted in her fur is definitely from the wound. She decided to rip out a bunch of fur to try to get rid of it. I caught her when she ripped the scab loose... And ate it :klunk The hard stuff was bloody but might be old blood that just turned red again when I soaked it and she started gnawing on it. I dunno. I didn't give her an antibiotic when she opened the abscess because I never saw any swelling and she didn't lose any fur. I flushed with diluted betadine once and then with saline for three days. It was scabbed last week but it's possible she broke the scab and caused infection?

If the test shows no parasites and she continues with the diarrhea despite all the restrictions on her diet and environment, I really can't think of anything else it could be, besides a bacterial infection.

[redwuff]

I would consider coccidia with the pattern of poo she has. The fecal test might not necessarily show for coccidia cos it might not be shedding the oocytes at the time the test was taken. It is a quick treatment. If she does have coccidia the damage to the large intestine is pretty intense. Hopefully the fecal will show something. Baycox or panazuril is what is used to treat coccidia.

There are a lot of GI bugs that could be causing diarrhea and two weeks of diarrhea is too long. Thank you for taking a fecal in.

[ConfusedMuse]

I would consider coccidia with the pattern of poo she has. The fecal test might not necessarily show for coccidia cos it might not be shedding the oocytes at the time the test was taken. It is a quick treatment. If she does have coccidia the damage to the large intestine is pretty intense. Hopefully the fecal will show something. Baycox or panazuril is what is used to treat coccidia.

There are a lot of GI bugs that could be causing diarrhea and two weeks of diarrhea is too long. Thank you for taking a fecal in.

I wish I had taken the sample on Monday. I don't know why I didn't think to ask vet if I could just bring the sample in instead of her. I guess I was still thinking food reaction because I cleaned the wild things I gave her and thought it was unlikely.

Will the fecal study look for those other bugs, too?

Yes, I read a couple of medical articles, studies on squirrels in the wild from Virginia, and saw that coccidia was the more common parasite, at 91% infection in wild squirrels! Nematodes were common at about 60% I think but I don't see anything in the poo. The study said they just live with it or recover, except in the young or immune impaired. I don't want her to have to live with it.

I will let the vet know what you said if she isn't sure what to prescribe (she doesn't specialize in wildlife). Thanks!

You are ABSOLUTELY right that two weeks is too long. Three days of watery diarrhea is too long and that's been going on a week. I would be at my wit's end, even if it was just still the pudding-poo she began with but I started freaking out and seeking wider range of advice on the second day of the watery stuff.

She's "okay" (has energy to play and is eating better) as long as she gets her Pepto. I really hope we get some news from the vet. It's been a long, hard road for her and I'm praying it's near its end and she'll come out the other side triumphant.

[CritterMom]

So, here is something I have used with great success, and the last three people I recommended it to on here also managed to stop the diarrhea with it.

First, diarrhea often is the cause of prolonged diarrhea. That is, it is very caustic, and it inflames the heck out of the digestive tract. And the inflammation causes more diarrhea, which further inflames the digestive tract which causes more diarrhea and on and on and on. What is needed is something very mild that SLOWS the passage of the feces and also pulls the water out of the digestive tract. And tastes good.

Rice Chex. It is crunchy and tasty and every squirrel I have ever given it to or recommended it to has loved it. My now late Mister P loved Rice Chex more than any other food including nuts. It is dry and thus absorbs water, mild so it doesn't cause further issues, and is made of RICE which is very commonly used for this very reason. I would strongly recommend you buy the real General Mills Rice Chex and not the store brands. I use a site called nutritiondata.self.com which has full nutritional info on tons of foods and if you look up Rice Chex you will see that it is calcium supplemented to bring it up to the 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio, so it isn't going to start causing MBD. The store brands MAY be as well, but since I just can't verify it, I always spring for a little more money and buy the brand name.

Now it is possible that you have something going on giardia or coccidia wise but it is also possible that something minor triggered the diarrhea initially and you are on the inflammation/diarrhea downward spiral. If that is what is happening, the Rice Chex will fix it and you can join my Magical Anti-Diarrhea Rice Chex club.

[Mel1959]

Are you giving full strength GMF? Did you ever order any Fox Valley Dia-stat from Henrys?

[ConfusedMuse]

So, here is something I have used with great success, and the last three people I recommended it to on here also managed to stop the diarrhea with it.

First, diarrhea often is the cause of prolonged diarrhea. That is, it is very caustic, and it inflames the heck out of the digestive tract. And the inflammation causes more diarrhea, which further inflames the digestive tract which causes more diarrhea and on and on and on. What is needed is something very mild that SLOWS the passage of the feces and also pulls the water out of the digestive tract. And tastes good.

Rice Chex. It is crunchy and tasty and every squirrel I have ever given it to or recommended it to has loved it. My now late Mister P loved Rice Chex more than any other food including nuts. It is dry and thus absorbs water, mild so it doesn't cause further issues, and is made of RICE which is very commonly used for this very reason. I would strongly recommend you buy the real General Mills Rice Chex and not the store brands. I use a site called nutritiondata.self.com which has full nutritional info on tons of foods and if you look up Rice Chex you will see that it is calcium supplemented to bring it up to the 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio, so it isn't going to start causing MBD. The store brands MAY be as well, but since I just can't verify it, I always spring for a little more money and buy the brand name.

Now it is possible that you have something going on giardia or coccidia wise but it is also possible that something minor triggered the diarrhea initially and you are on the inflammation/diarrhea downward spiral. If that is what is happening, the Rice Chex will fix it and you can join my Magical Anti-Diarrhea Rice Chex club.

I've been mixing baby rice cereal with formula but good point! And Chex is one of the few things in this world that I will never buy generic. I'm off to the grocer tomorrow so I will add it to my list!


Are you giving full strength GMF? Did you ever order any Fox Valley Dia-stat from Henrys?

At this point, I have her on 6/4 Esbilac/GMF mixture. Tomorrow I will phase out Esbilac entirely if she continues to prefer it this way. I want her off the Esbilac but I don't want it to be too quick transition with all the tummy troubles. I'm watching her very closely.

She should probably be weaning but 1) I don't like how much weight she's lost and she stopped growing at 9 weeks when this started so added nutrition is probably smart right now and 2) she is extremely insistant that she is NOT ready to wean, probably because liquid is easier to digest and she is always hungry with the tummy trouble even if she doesn't eat much.

I made the decision today to order FV even if she might turn around next week and wean before it arrives. I figure it's worth the investment because there will probably be other rescues who will need it in future if she doesn't want it. I usually keep it in freezer just in case but my last bag expired months before she was old enough for it. I should have transitioned when she was 4 weeks but she was doing so well on the Esbilac... Until this last can, new lot.

OH! The diastat. No. I didn't order. With the Pepto she started taking more formula and I offer water in between so she isn't currently dehydrated.

[Spanky]

OH! The diastat. No. I didn't order. With the Pepto she started taking more formula and I offer water in between so she isn't currently dehydrated.

Electro-Stat is the FV rehydration solution

Dia-Stat is for diarrhea as well as re-hydration from diarrhea... and just for anyone reading this thread now or in the future because this baby is not emaciated and weak... Dia-Stat is my go to not only for difficult cases of diarrhea but a life saver IMO for severely dehydrated, emaciated, starving babies. One of the ingredients for treating diarrhea is Guar Gum which I don't see in other products. In addition it contains easily digestible dextrose to give some extra energy and calories.... I have been preaching Dia Stat for a long while now and it has saved babies (IMO) that I believe I would have lost without it.

https://henryspets.com/dia-stat-for-diarrhea/

[ConfusedMuse]

Good news!!!

So, last night, her BMs cleared up to "partly formed". Although it does this after every Pepto dose, the poo juice always returns within 4 hours. Because it was firming up, I didn't give her a bedtime dose.

I awoke to this, so didn't dose her this morning:

319771

It's still a little mushy (you can see her footprint in the long one) and way too big to be called "normal" (her normal is about 1/4", like the one in the background, and these are 1/2" and 1-1/2 inch in the foreground).

Fed her Henry's block, then her morning formula (about 2/6 mix Esbilac/GMF), then a bowl of fresh veggies (I added those back in on Friday because withholding wasn't helping). Then she gave me this:

319772

WOOT! And her appetite is back (although that improved with bismuth and again when I introduced GMF).

I went ahead and treated with toltrazuril 5% last night although the poo never had an unusual odor. I spent the day reading about the horrors of late treatment for coccidia in young animals and decided the benefits outweighed the risk. In addition, she's transitioning off Esbilac, so I don't know which finally helped. Maybe I'll know when her stool results come back from the vet. I will never use Esbilac again (but I'm not sure what to do if faced with a pinkie again-- 32/40 is still not good, as I understand it, which is why I used Esbilac when she was rescued and continued when she was old enough for 20/50 on the assumption "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But it's broke, now, so...).

This is what I used for coccidia (older version of baycox). If anyone needs it, the website is on the label. I'm told not to do second dose after 24 hrs as listed on label for rabbits but can repeat in 7 days.

319773

I've been replacing the paper in her cage 2x daily. I guess today I will do my best to clean it thoroughly (I have chlorhexidine soap) just in case it was coccidia. If all remains well, I'll start adding things back into her cage because she's going cray without her chew toys lol. Every other day, though, because I need to watch to make sure they don't cause a relapse. Obviously, I have to throw out the wood stuff since I can't wash it. Sigh. Unless... Does anyone know how long coccidia can survive in dried poo? I can surface-clean but I worry it might have permeated into the wood...

I'll give another update this evening. It looks like she's on the mend!

[ConfusedMuse]

Electro-Stat is the FV rehydration solution

Dia-Stat is for diarrhea as well as re-hydration from diarrhea... and just for anyone reading this thread now or in the future because this baby is not emaciated and weak... Dia-Stat is my go to not only for difficult cases of diarrhea but a life saver IMO for severely dehydrated, emaciated, starving babies. One of the ingredients for treating diarrhea is Guar Gum which I don't see in other products. In addition it contains easily digestible dextrose to give some extra energy and calories.... I have been preaching Dia Stat for a long while now and it has saved babies (IMO) that I believe I would have lost without it.

https://henryspets.com/dia-stat-for-diarrhea/

I'm going to order it even though she's improving because I could have used it when she was way down. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have on hand so if (g*d forbid!) it happens again it will be on hand and won't have to wait for it. So it can be used for dehydration even if no diarrhea? Thanks!

[redwuff]

Yay to good poo!!!:dance:w00t:glomp:dance:w00t

[redwuff]

Good news!!!

So, last night, her BMs cleared up to "partly formed". Although it does this after every Pepto dose, the poo juice always returns within 4 hours. Because it was firming up, I didn't give her a bedtime dose.

I awoke to this, so didn't dose her this morning:

319771

It's still a little mushy (you can see her footprint in the long one) and way too big to be called "normal" (her normal is about 1/4", like the one in the background, and these are 1/2" and 1-1/2 inch in the foreground).

Fed her Henry's block, then her morning formula (about 2/6 mix Esbilac/GMF), then a bowl of fresh veggies (I added those back in on Friday because withholding wasn't helping). Then she gave me this:

319772

WOOT! And her appetite is back (although that improved with bismuth and again when I introduced GMF).



This is what I used for coccidia (older version of baycox). If anyone needs it, the website is on the label. I'm told not to do second dose after 24 hrs as listed on label for rabbits but can repeat in 7 days.

319773

I'll give another update this evening. It looks like she's on the mend!

Thank you so much for the site on “all things bunnies” that carries toltrazuril for coccidia. Great find.

[ConfusedMuse]

Aaaand, we're back. Now I'm confused because this looks more like vomit than poo. I'm at a loss.

319775

[ConfusedMuse]

Thank you so much for the site on “all things bunnies” that carries toltrazuril for coccidia. Great find.

It was actually a combined effort. When you gave me the brand names of treatment, I googled to find active ingredient, then asked my local rehabber friend if she had any of those. She came up with the rabbit med which she had on hand, and the website, where she says they have all kinds of good stuff.

www.allthingsbunnies.com

[Spanky]

I'm going to order it even though she's improving because I could have used it when she was way down. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have on hand so if (g*d forbid!) it happens again it will be on hand and won't have to wait for it. So it can be used for dehydration even if no diarrhea? Thanks!

Yes, but here is my protocol: I use homemade hydration for run of the mill dehydrated intakes. Kids that come in from the wild or finders that did things very wrong and the babies are close to deaths door, skin and bones. I start with homemade hydration for 8 - 24 hours then transition to DiaStat depending on their condition: For the kids who are just not perking up like they should from hydration I use DiaStat as the first two "meals" instead of formula.

It would be worthwhile to read more detail on the FV site (link below). I'll point out it says Dia Stat can be used in conjunction with additional water (or electrolyte solution), it is not recommended to be used if the squirrel (mammal?) is being treated with antibiotics,

https://store.foxvalleynutrition.com/dia-stat




I will never use Esbilac again (but I'm not sure what to do if faced with a pinkie again-- 32/40 is still not good, as I understand it, which is why I used Esbilac when she was rescued and continued when she was old enough for 20/50 on the assumption "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But it's broke, now, so...).

FWIW: Zoologic 33/40 with FV 32/40 and cream, birth to wean. If you use the formula calculator at eWildAgain you'll see this is much closer to mom's milk that just Esbilac or FV 20/50.

It is hard to recommend this generally on the board because I have not found anywhere to buy the Zoologic in less than 5lbs quantities.. so for someone caring for the "one off" baby or litter it would be a big ask to buy 5lbs. Also, since Zoologic is also a PetAg product some folks will refuse to use it as well Esbilac (but there are some very good rehabbers that continue to use both Esbilac and FV32/40). Some folks will refuse to use the FV 32/40 as well... I was not rehabbing during the 32/40 disaster, but did used it early in my squirrel experience without issue, then stopped using it after learning about the debacle. I was lucky during the more recent Esbilac debacle not to have used the bad lots (maybe the luck of buying in 5lb bags?), but I was using half Esbilac and half FV 20/50 starting at 3 weeks back then... I always like to think the half and half provides some reassurance against an issue with one formula or the other. I did intake quite a few kids suffering from MBD (75% from other rehabbers often from very far away!) during the Esbilac debacle and am happy to say MBD was reversed in all of them and they were all successfully released. I was very lucky. Quite a number of them had fractures in their X-Rays but they were young enough to grow healthy bones and had no deficiencies at release age.

(Sorry that I am "ranting" in a few posts in your thread, but this seems like a thread that includes and productive and healthy exchange of ideas! It is not intended to be a thread hi-jack!)

[ConfusedMuse]

I'm sometimes stubborn about clinging to things I've used that work, but I am a "permanent student" always interested in learning more and new things. I think I accidentally dismissed the dia-stat because 1) I thought shipping was too slow and wanted something for immediate care and 2) I thought it was just another electrolyte (maybe I accidentally got electro-stat when I googled?) So THANKS very much for bringing it up again! This is, indeed, a thread that welcomes discussion!

I've looked around TSB but see no mention of how to feed FV 20/50. Does it require extra cream? She is basically weaning age but I really hesitate to wean (more of that stubborn streak) until we have this figured out and she starts drinking water on her own, so I'd like to start her on FV. She takes formula 3x daily (about 6 hours between).

Should I add cream or yogurt?




Yes, but here is my protocol: I use homemade hydration for run of the mill dehydrated intakes. Kids that come in from the wild or finders that did things very wrong and the babies are close to deaths door, skin and bones. I start with homemade hydration for 8 - 24 hours then transition to DiaStat depending on their condition: For the kids who are just not perking up like they should from hydration I use DiaStat as the first two "meals" instead of formula.

It would be worthwhile to read more detail on the FV site (link below). I'll point out it says Dia Stat can be used in conjunction with additional water (or electrolyte solution), it is not recommended to be used if the squirrel (mammal?) is being treated with antibiotics,

https://store.foxvalleynutrition.com/dia-stat





FWIW: Zoologic 33/40 with FV 32/40 and cream, birth to wean. If you use the formula calculator at eWildAgain you'll see this is much closer to mom's milk that just Esbilac or FV 20/50.

It is hard to recommend this generally on the board because I have not found anywhere to buy the Zoologic in less than 5lbs quantities.. so for someone caring for the "one off" baby or litter it would be a big ask to buy 5lbs. Also, since Zoologic is also a PetAg product some folks will refuse to use it as well Esbilac (but there are some very good rehabbers that continue to use both Esbilac and FV32/40). Some folks will refuse to use the FV 32/40 as well... I was not rehabbing during the 32/40 disaster, but did used it early in my squirrel experience without issue, then stopped using it after learning about the debacle. I was lucky during the more recent Esbilac debacle not to have used the bad lots (maybe the luck of buying in 5lb bags?), but I was using half Esbilac and half FV 20/50 starting at 3 weeks back then... I always like to think the half and half provides some reassurance against an issue with one formula or the other. I did intake quite a few kids suffering from MBD (75% from other rehabbers often from very far away!) during the Esbilac debacle and am happy to say MBD was reversed in all of them and they were all successfully released. I was very lucky. Quite a number of them had fractures in their X-Rays but they were young enough to grow healthy bones and had no deficiencies at release age.

(Sorry that I am "ranting" in a few posts in your thread, but this seems like a thread that includes and productive and healthy exchange of ideas! It is not intended to be a thread hi-jack!)

[redwuff]

I do not add anything to FV 20/50. Other people do.

[Mel1959]

I have always mixed FV 20/50 with FV Ultraboost at a ratio of 50/50. I also add a small spoon of Liberte’ full fat vanilla yogurt. This is what I began using when I had my first dwarf baby. He needed the extra calories from the Ultraboost. I know other rehabbers that add Ultraboost at a 25% to 75% Fox Valley formula ratio and their babies do fine.

[ConfusedMuse]

Still sample was clean. Sigh. Still with the diarrhea. Dia-STAT should be here tomorrow. Treated for coccidia just in case on Saturday night.

I gave her a break from the pepto but I'm going to end up giving it to her again. How safe it is @3 doses/daily?

Still worried that it's associated with the abscess she broke open. Her fur is sticky but mostly on the leg. She has been pulling out the fur around the wound.

Still no detectable swelling or redness but although she doesn't favor it, the leg is thinner than the other.

319801319802319803

[HRT4SQRLS]

If the area is “sticky” it indicates there is still drainage occurring. Since this has been there since a pinkie, IMO this needs to be treated to resolve it completely. I know it sounds counterproductive to give a squirrel with diarrhea antibiotics but I do feel this is needed. It can’t be good for her overall health to have this infection for so long. I can’t say the infection is in any way related to the diarrhea but I would still treat especially since the size of the leg is decreased. What antibiotic do you have access to?

[ConfusedMuse]

I recently had an infection, myself, and for someone who rarely takes an antibiotic, I currently have a private pharmacy lol

Omnicef (cefdinir) 300mg capsule
Keflex (cephalexin) 850mg capsule
Amoxicillin/Clav (I'll have to look at mg but it's a tablet)
Bactrim (Sulfamethoxazole/trimethophrim) 480mg tablet

I might be able to get something from the vet but I hesitate to bring Lolly in because she's got the autumnal cray-cray going on and I worry she would escape. She would probably want to see her before dispensing antibiotics but it's not impossible. She did see her at 3 weeks and knows about the abscess (or cyst or whatever) and advised to leave it alone, then, because she had already had baytril the week before.

I have some baytril left but I'm not sure it's still good because I stored it on the porch in 90 degree weather. I can get more.

The "sticky" is in the fur. It could be from her licking it and tearing hair out. I assumed the difference in leg size was because she wasn't able to bend it properly until she bit it open, but I don't think it has gained mass since she broke it open and became active.

I'm not above giving her an antibiotic as a "just in case". I have the diastat arriving tomorrow (hopefully).I would hate to see her come this far just to be done in by diarrhea or the stupid abscess she lived with for so long without symptoms ��

[redwuff]

Can you shave or cut the hair around the abscess so you can see exactly what is going on there?

HRT is the antibiotic expert on the board. I know my vet has previously prescribed Baytril and metronidazole to help gut issues. I have never had diarrhea from giving Baytril to babies.

Have you thought about giving Imodium to help stop the diarrhea?

[ConfusedMuse]

Also, her appetite has improved since I started mixing the Esbilac with GMF. I don't know for sure but I think I rushed the switch and that's why the diarrhea came back (or maybe the brand of vanilla yogurt I got is too high in sugar-- I never heard of Brown Cow brand and only picked it up for my hooman kid who is too skinny to eat low-fat). I started adding Esbilac again at 20% and her stools firmed up again (I'm glad I held off on the bismuth). They are tan instead of brown, but I'm going to assume that's the GMF. She has decided she loves it and I have to stop her from overfeeding on it. I think she has the urge for formula because she had lost so much weight. She's eating a whole Henry's at a time (2x daily). She shreds most of it but I do see her go back and pick up the crumbs. I stopped adding formula to the BRF gruel and just make it with water and she doesn't mind. I give her a few rice Chex today, instead, and romaine, mushroom and sugar snap peas. She eats the peas first. She might eat the mushroom. She won't eat the lettuce until it's fully wilted.

So, whether or not the diarrhea is completely over, I can't say. She still complains when I pick her up so I think her tummy still hurts, unless it's the leg. She always acts like I'm starving her. I'll be glad when everything is straightened out.

[HRT4SQRLS]

The Baytril would not be effective for an abscess. It’s vets favorite antibiotic but it’s not useful for wounds. You can hold off on treating until the diarrhea is under control but if she continues to lick it, it would seem it still bothers her. Try the DiaStat when it comes in. I would also offer her the Rice Chex. It’s such a simple thing that is received well.

You are set up with the correct antibiotics to treat a wound if you need to treat at some point. The Amox/Clav or the Bactrim (SMZ/TMP) could be used.

If after all you’ve done doesn’t work for the diarrhea the Metronidazole is indicated.

Edit… I see you gave her the Rice Chex. :thumbsup

[HRT4SQRLS]

While on formula the poop are light colored. It is mostly a yellowish golden color. When you start adding solid food it becomes brown. The Pepto you have been giving darkens the stool in some cases to black. I’m glad to hear her appetite is so good.

[ConfusedMuse]

Can you shave or cut the hair around the abscess so you can see exactly what is going on there?

HRT is the antibiotic expert on the board. I know my vet has previously prescribed Baytril and metronidazole to help gut issues. I have never had diarrhea from giving Baytril to babies.

Have you thought about giving Imodium to help stop the diarrhea?

I've been giving thought to whether I could trim it. The way she wiggles and the fact that she complains (growl, squeak, clearly is upset) when I pick her up makes everything more difficult. I may have a trimmer that would work if the noise didn't scare her.

I've been trying to avoid diarrhea medicine if I can. I gave her bismuth for three days, which makes me nervous. I hadn't seen the Imodium, before. I will hit you up for dosage in case the cycle starts again tomorrow.

I woke her up to weigh her which made it a little more accurate since she was sleepy for at least a minute after I dragged her out of bed. It looks like she's 411 grams (although might be 407-- she woke up). I always used to weigh her in the morning after I made her go pee and before I feed her so I had a solid baseline but she won't let me do that now that she old enough to walk.


The Baytril would not be effective for an abscess. It’s vets favorite antibiotic but it’s not useful for wounds. You can hold off on treating until the diarrhea is under control but if she continues to lick it, it would seem it still bothers her. Try the DiaStat when it comes in. I would also offer her the Rice Chex. It’s such a simple thing that is received well.

You are set up with the correct antibiotics to treat a wound if you need to treat at some point. The Amox/Clav or the Bactrim (SMZ/TMP) could be used.

If after all you’ve done doesn’t work for the diarrhea the Metronidazole is indicated.

Edit… I see you gave her the Rice Chex. :thumbsup

I actually would like the dosage for amox. I'll go find out the mg and PM you.

[redwuff]

[QUOTE=ConfusedMuse;1337858]I've been giving thought to whether I could trim it. The way she wiggles and the fact that she complains (growl, squeak, clearly is upset) when I pick her up makes everything more difficult. I may have a trimmer that would work if the noise didn't scare her.

Does she seem like her stomach hurts while she is in her cage by herself? That really concerns me that she seems to hurt when you handle her abdominal area. I would do the full treatment for coccidia. If the coccidia is not shedding, the oocysts will not show up in a fecal. It has intermittent shedding.

[ConfusedMuse]

As long as Clavamox doesn't cause interaction, I do plan to do the 2nd dose of toltrazuril in a week.

She bites the bars of her cage A LOT and it seems like it's associated with her demanding food. She jumps and climbs. She gets the zoomies. She only reacts "violently" when picked up (she doesn't bite but she sounds like she wants to). I don't know--maybe it's seasonal and she's just irritated with being held when she wants to run around. I try not to put pressure on her tummy when I do. Sometimes I can't help it if she tries to get free because I'm afraid she'll fall.

She was a very sweet, cuddly girl before all of this but I do wonder if some of her current behaviors are normal for the season and not associated with whatever is ailing her.

[HRT4SQRLS]

I think this might be normal for her. Once squirrels get big enough to run around, some really don’t like to be restrained or held by a hand.
They will wiggle and struggle to be free. And yes, they will bite if they get a chance.

[ConfusedMuse]

Update: yesterday was 1 diarrhea to 4 regular. Today is 2 diarrhea to 3 regular. Unless it's the snow peas I still cannot figure it out for the life of me. I'm tired of the yo-yo. At least she's not dehydrated, but that's been touch and go. I'm almost happy she's at >50% since we've been battling this for two weeks.

FV 20/50 arrived today. I made it up immediately so I can start adding it tonight. Dia-STAT is late. I will recommend that anyone ordering FV not do so on Amazon even if you have prime: pay $10 for 2 day shipping on Henry's. Same price as prime and they give you priority making the label. I ordered Dia through Amazon and it was supposed to arrive yesterday and didn't. I ordered 20/50 from Henry's two days later and it's here. Amazon shop said October 4 on 20/50 with 2-day. Direct is more efficient.

I haven't given her an anti-diarrheal in three days. She's still yo-yoing but not watery 24/7 anymore. I think it's because I'm phasing out Esbilac but it might also be the coccidia treatment. At least it's 50% good news and she's STILL ALIVE and ACTIVE again and her appetite for solids (and formula) is improving! (Not to mention her mood lol.)

Thanks for all the help!

[ConfusedMuse]

She's so smart. I knew she knew "pacha" for formula (Guatemalan: fun word) but I've only been giving her Chex for three days and she knows "cruncha-munch" lol.

How much Chex per day is healthy? I give her about ten pieces per day, basically using it to keep her from getting grumpy between veggies and formula. Last night I put 3 pieces extra in her bowl with Mazuri after she went to sleep and I woke up to her in a better mood lol.

[CritterMom]

Yeah, my boy would have eaten his weight in them if only his awful mom would have given them to him (or let him into the kitchen cabinets)! 10 (or 12) won't hurt, especially with the runs she could have a couple more. Once the poops normalize, just make sure she has eaten her healthy blocks before she gets them because they are way tastier!

[ConfusedMuse]

Other than overnight 3 I give her blocks before lol

[ConfusedMuse]

Here we go again...

I decided to wait 2 days to give an update because every time I think it's over, it starts again, and today was the day I was going to share my happy dance with y'all but...

This is new. Please tell me this is likely from another formula change. She shows no other signs that I can see, but somebody in this thread said that pale poo is calcium overload... She was all better for about 40 hours, good form and good color.

What should I look for if it's calcium problem?

319848

[HRT4SQRLS]

Is it possible that now that she feels better she is over eating. How much formula is she taking? It looks like undigested formula. You’re not supplementing with calcium, right?

[ConfusedMuse]

Im giving her 3 feedings per day @7% body weight (6 hour intervals). No calcium supplement, and I actually took out her cuttle bone when all this started, too.

We're in transition to FV-- from GMF, from Esbilac...

While waiting for FV I transitioned her from Esbilac to GMF but she only seemed to tolerate GMF with 20% Esbilac. Whenever I tried to drop lower, the poo juice returned. When FV arrived, I replaced the Esbilac with 20% FV (20/50) and she did amazing since I started her and as we increased.

Last batch of GMF I was lazy because I knew it would be 50/50 and I doubled the yogurt/cream in GMF because it was easier than mixing both. I might have gone too high? She doesn't seem to do well on GMF alone so maybe it's the % yogurt or cream she's not tolerating?

I doubled up on FV when I mixed it tonight. No creamy top on it, basically 75% FV to see if she does better. I'll double up again tomorrow afternoon (add a little FV to the day's mix) which will make it about 85% so that Saturday night she will start 100% and the only cream/yogurt I add will be to FV. That will be 3-days transition. Am I doing it too quickly? Or too slowly? She's 11 weeks and I know she should start weaning. She just tells me in no uncertain terms that she's not ready. I WILL take her down to 2x daily next week and start to wean once she's gaining weight regularly after her illness.

[ConfusedMuse]

She would likely take 10% or more right now because she does seem to be overcompensating like a child who has been deprived food but I don't feel comfortable letting her do that until she's completely transitioned to new formula and her poo is 100% back to normal. She isn't happy about it, now that her appetite has returned, but I'm trying to hold her at 7% or less formula and tiding her over with fresh veggies and a few (5-10) Chex. She gets 2 Henry's blocks per day and I put Mazuri in her bowl after she's asleep in case she wakes up before I do (she sometimes eats one).

[HRT4SQRLS]

Usually it’s the cream that can cause diarrhea. I think your transition is too slow but you’re the one dealing with her digestive issues so I think you’re a better judge of the progression than me.

[ConfusedMuse]

Skip cream or skip cream and yogurt? At this age (11 weeks) would you say I could skip all supplements (in last weeks to weaning) (if she doesn't keep going until she's in college) (which she probably will at this rate lol).

TYVM.

[ConfusedMuse]

So, I thought it might help finally resolve her issues if I gave her diastat for a feeding or two so I opened the bag today... And found big, crunchy lumps in it. Is this common? Is it safe to use? Should I return it and order a new one?
It looks like it got damp even though I just opened it. Thanks.

319854

[ConfusedMuse]

Roughly 48 hours of "good poo" again. I have taken her down to formula 2x/daily (from 3x) full strength FV with no cream. She doesn't like it quite as much as when I put cream or yogurt in it but her poo is normal color (no undigested formula), size and texture now. Plus, she didn't attack me demanding food so I think she's ready to step down a little from formula. I make it up to her when she goes hangry by giving her extra veggies and a few Rice Chex in between when she gets angsty. She eats 2 Henry's blocks/daily and has actually started swallowing instead of crumbling them to get to nuts. I leave Mazuri in her bowl in case she needs a snack. This might sound like calorie overload but she was barely eating anything for two weeks so I feel as if I should give her the lead to build her strength back. She only eats one Mazuri/daily although she crumbles a second. It lets me sleep in a little bit past sunrise if she doesn't have to be fed the moment I open my eyes lol.

Hopefully I can say this again tomorrow (that she's recovered) which will mean we've permanently turned the corner!

[ConfusedMuse]

Last update on this thread:

A week without any diarrhea or weird poo. YAY! It all leveled out after I took her off of Esbilac @11 weeks and the rest took care of itself after I finally got her onto Fox Valley.

13 weeks, now. No, I'm not going to force her to wean. I have lowered her to 2x daily for formula. When she's ready, I'm ready.

She's back up to 468 grams @13 weeks. All seemingly muscle. Baby got "back". Shes a brick house, after weight loss and failure to thrive for two-three weeks.

I can't tell you how relieved I am!