I bet it was Esbilac

[CritterMom]

I am a huge fan of the "zoo" shows on Animal Planet and Nat Geo Wild. Today at lunch, Zeke and I settled in to watch the most recent episode of "Secrets of the Zoo Down Under" which is filmed at Taronga Zoo in Sydney, Australia. These episodes would have been filmed last year.

One of their wombats had died with a baby in the pouch, so the keepers were hand rearing him. Two of them would swap him back and forth at the end of each day to take him home since it turned into basically a 24 hour day - work at the zoo all day and then bring the nocturnal baby home to feed and supervise while he played most of the night. Much adorableness - baby wombats are precious.

At about 7 months old - they stay with and nurse on mom for two years so they grow quite slowly, and a 7 month old baby is still a wee little guy - they noticed that he began to move oddly, like he was stiff. They took him to the vet center for x-rays and that is when I started yelling at my TV. His bones were not the nice, solid white that bones should be in an x-ray. They were faint looking and gray. Furthermore, his digestive tract was filled with food and big areas of gas.

He looked EXACTLY like the x-rays of our Esbilac babies last year. You could hear the vets and keepers muttering to each other that they "were using the same formula they had used for years for these guys." They had no idea why they were seeing what they were seeing. Too bad they couldn't hear me shouting at my TV.

I rewound several times and while they showed him being fed a bunch of times, they never showed them mixing up formula...but I have seen that can with the white puppy of death at the San Diego Zoo, the Bronx Zoo, the Columbus Zoo, and the Georgia Aquarium. I bet you ANYTHING that they were using the same Esbilac we were last year.

They didn't go into detail but I believe they simply started supplementing with calcium, and a month later his x-rays showed some new calcification in his bones...but it also showed small fractures in his growth plates. Sound familiar?

The show ended at that point - no idea if they ever switched him to a different formula, and of course no idea what eventually happened to him, which is heartbreaking. It is now probably a year or close to it after that episode was filmed, so whatever happened has already happened. Sigh.

I would bet the farm that he was getting Esbilac.

HA! I did some googling and found this:

https://taronga.org.au/get-involved/behind-the-scenes-documentary/episode-5#anupdateonwaru

Poor little guy had to have surgery in both hind legs...

[Mel1959]

Don’t you wish we (TSB) could reach out to zoos worldwide and ask the folks that work in their nurseries about the problems they’ve experienced with Esbilac?

[CritterMom]

I actually tried to contact The Bronx Zoo last year after seeing how many cans of the stuff they had in their food prep area but ultimately gave up. I wasn't trying to speak to anyone; I was just trying to give warning. It was very clear that I was being dusted off by anyone answering the phone... You need to know someone at these places before you can be heard, I imagine. Perhaps if you could GO there in person you could catch an ear.

[Chirps]

I understand the concept of using puppy Esbilac for wild animals as being "off label" but have to wonder if dog breeders were seeing any problems as well. If the intended specie wasn't benefiting and was even being harmed by the product that should have had them scrambling to rectify it if the problem was brought to their attention. Hmmm . . .

[CritterMom]

Hopefully HRT4SQRLS will see this and come on - she has had some experience with some dog groups on this very subject.

[HRT4SQRLS]

I bet it was Esbilac also. I wonder if we could get an email to someone involved in the care. I think the data on ewildagain would be very valuable information for them.

Yes, I pursued the avenue of dog breeders. I didn’t get very far. I was banned from the first group for even asking the question. I was more stealthy in the second group. From what I gathered, most professional dog breeders don’t use Esbilac. They consider it to be a low quality product and not worthy of their prized dogs. Some stated that Esbilac had caused juvenile cataracts in puppies. It is caused by an amino acid (phenylalanine and arginine) deficiency. Many use Royal Canin and most in this particular group use a homemade formula developed by a breeder with a lot of influence in dog circles. Their homemade formula contains evaporated goat milk, liver water, yogurt, egg yoke, mayonnaise, Karo syrup and baby vitamins. Liver water provides essential amino acids. :yuck Sometimes dogs can have a dozen or more puppies so the mom can’t possibly feed that many.

It seems most that use the Esbilac are occasional backyard breeders. I guess realistically the professional breeders have taken to heart the statement on the Esbilac can that says, “For intermittent or supplemental feedings only.” Even PetAg acknowledges that it isn’t a complete formula for puppies with that disclaimer.

What do you think C.M.? They gave an email address.

[island rehabber]

I actually tried to contact The Bronx Zoo last year after seeing how many cans of the stuff they had in their food prep area but ultimately gave up. I wasn't trying to speak to anyone; I was just trying to give warning. It was very clear that I was being dusted off by anyone answering the phone... You need to know someone at these places before you can be heard, I imagine. Perhaps if you could GO there in person you could catch an ear.

I live 10 minutes from the Bronx Zoo and have never found them to be helpful regarding ANYTHING about wildlife rehabilitation. The corporate culture, if a zoo can be considered a corporation, is that rehabbers are annoying, retired empty-nesters who want to cuddle baby creatures and simply will not let nature take its course. As an example, I attend an exercise class with a woman who retired after 34 years from the Zoo as an Animal Nutritionist. I wanted to be her friend -- I could have learned so much from her! But all she'd ever say to me was "You still doing that ****?" She is not the only reason I formed this opinion about the Bronx Zoo, but that kind of says it all.

[Diggie's Friend]

They don't know all there is to know about nutrition of these animals; there is so much research that they don't bother to take the time to review, daily going by wrote doing their job. Most veterinarians will tell you that they don't know much their having no time to look into research. Yet over the last 25 years allot has been found that bears much weight as to what was assumed in the past to be the best diet that has been shown to be otherwise. This is why I continue to share updates on findings from rat research that bear much weight as to how to avoid common mistakes in the diet of tree squirrels cared for long term in captivity. For though for rehabbing purposes the available diets work sufficiently, the research has shown that using them long term may result in damage to various internal organs.

For example Folic acid in rats was found to cause pancreatic lesions in rats; yet if it is discontinued prior to 6 mo.of age it doesn't result in pancreatic cancer as it was found to do in rats over 6 months of age in a research study. In tree squirrels, since their lifespan far exceeds that of rats, the age that this could begin to cause damage isn't known. It may e that since tree squirrels are a hardier species that it doesn't cause pancreatic lesions, but then this hasn't been confirmed. Yet since Folate, the natural form found in plants and seeds, doesn't cause lesions in the pancreas of rats as folic acid has been found to do, why take a chance that it won't do so for tree squirrels cared for long term in captivity.

[Chirps]

I live 10 minutes from the Bronx Zoo and have never found them to be helpful regarding ANYTHING about wildlife rehabilitation. The corporate culture, if a zoo can be considered a corporation, is that rehabbers are annoying, retired empty-nesters who want to cuddle baby creatures and simply will not let nature take its course. As an example, I attend an exercise class with a woman who retired after 34 years from the Zoo as an Animal Nutritionist. I wanted to be her friend -- I could have learned so much from her! But all she'd ever say to me was "You still doing that ****?" She is not the only reason I formed this opinion about the Bronx Zoo, but that kind of says it all.
:shakehead:shakehead:shakehead

[Chirps]

I bet it was Esbilac also. I wonder if we could get an email to someone involved in the care. I think the data on ewildagain would be very valuable information for them.

Yes, I pursued the avenue of dog breeders. I didn’t get very far. I was banned from the first group for even asking the question. I was more stealthy in the second group. From what I gathered, most professional dog breeders don’t use Esbilac. They consider it to be a low quality product and not worthy of their prized dogs. Some stated that Esbilac had caused juvenile cataracts in puppies. It is caused by an amino acid (phenylalanine and arginine) deficiency. Many use Royal Canin and most in this particular group use a homemade formula developed by a breeder with a lot of influence in dog circles. Their homemade formula contains evaporated goat milk, liver water, yogurt, egg yoke, mayonnaise, Karo syrup and baby vitamins. Liver water provides essential amino acids. :yuck Sometimes dogs can have a dozen or more puppies so the mom can’t possibly feed that many.

It seems most that use the Esbilac are occasional backyard breeders. I guess realistically the professional breeders have taken to heart the statement on the Esbilac can that says, “For intermittent or supplemental feedings only.” Even PetAg acknowledges that it isn’t a complete formula for puppies with that disclaimer.

What do you think C.M.? They gave an email address.
Wow that's interesting. I forget what I googled but was looking for dog breeder discussion fora to see if the topic had been raised but couldn't find anything.

[CritterMom]

Australia does a MUCH better job with this. Australia Zoo - of the Irwin family fame - has an enormous wildlife hospital complete with a bunch of mini vans and staff who's job it is to travel all over and pick up wildlife from finders. They also crawl into attics, up chimneys, etc., to rescue them. The wildlife hospital is on the zoo grounds but accessible to the public for drop offs without having to actually go to the zoo. The vets do intake, diagnose any problems, provide needed treatment, surgery, etc., and when they are stable they are handed over to what are referred to as "wildlife carers" in Oz. Those carers are provided with formula, food, meds, etc., all at no cost to them. They bring the animals back to the center as needed for follow up treatments, and when they are ready to be released the mini vans bring them back to where they were found unless there is a reason not to (they don't sent hit by car patients back to where the cars are), or if the carers live in an area where soft release is possible they handle it. The Irwins also own a 7000 acre parcel of the outback where animals that are often in care for car accidents are sent - no roads, no humans save for the family that runs this part of the rescue center for them. It is freaking amazing. Apparently most of the equipment at the wildlife center is human medical equipment like MRI and CT scanners, etc., purchased from hospitals when they get new equipment and donated by...Russel Crowe, who is a close friend of the family and apparently a much better guy than I ever dreamed! Taronga Zoo does similar - they are a smaller zoo but their wildlife center was all over during the fires, doing medical work out of fully rigged vans.

It would be nice if our zoos paid some attention to that...

[HRT4SQRLS]

I forget what I googled but was looking for dog breeder discussion fora to see if the topic had been raised but couldn't find anything.

I found many dog breeding groups on FaceBook. If you can think it... there are a thousand FB groups discussing it. :tilt That includes squirrel groups but the misinformation disseminated on some of them made me insane. You know the drill... I raised a squirrel in 1998 on KMR and he did fine.
I couldn’t take it. :shakehead

[Mel1959]

Australia does a MUCH better job with this. Australia Zoo - of the Irwin family fame - has an enormous wildlife hospital complete with a bunch of mini vans and staff who's job it is to travel all over and pick up wildlife from finders. They also crawl into attics, up chimneys, etc., to rescue them. The wildlife hospital is on the zoo grounds but accessible to the public for drop offs without having to actually go to the zoo. The vets do intake, diagnose any problems, provide needed treatment, surgery, etc., and when they are stable they are handed over to what are referred to as "wildlife carers" in Oz. Those carers are provided with formula, food, meds, etc., all at no cost to them. They bring the animals back to the center as needed for follow up treatments, and when they are ready to be released the mini vans bring them back to where they were found unless there is a reason not to (they don't sent hit by car patients back to where the cars are), or if the carers live in an area where soft release is possible they handle it. The Irwins also own a 7000 acre parcel of the outback where animals that are often in care for car accidents are sent - no roads, no humans save for the family that runs this part of the rescue center for them. It is freaking amazing. Apparently most of the equipment at the wildlife center is human medical equipment like MRI and CT scanners, etc., purchased from hospitals when they get new equipment and donated by...Russel Crowe, who is a close friend of the family and apparently a much better guy than I ever dreamed! Taronga Zoo does similar - they are a smaller zoo but their wildlife center was all over during the fires, doing medical work out of fully rigged vans.

It would be nice if our zoos paid some attention to that...

When I grow up I wanna go get a job at the Irwin’s zoo. :grin3

[CritterMom]

When I grow up I wanna go get a job at the Irwin’s zoo. :grin3

Ya know, I wasn't a big fan of Steve...his goofy demeanor, his apparent constant annoyance of the animals in order to get a reaction out of them for the camera, but I have learned about an awful lot of really GOOD things he did while not on camera and my feelings have changed a bit since his death. But Terri - now THAT is one impressive woman. Australia Zoo was a smallish local zoo with only native animals and she built it into a HUGE place more along the lines of San Diego. She partnered with some big corporations to get the funds to do so, and put into place all sorts of programs to curry favor with the ultra wealthy for same. She has always been disliked by some in Australia, an American who 'stole' their hero, and eventually had to boot Steve's father because he was doing everything he could to stymie her efforts. She even became an Australian citizen. Now of course, her daughter has gone and done the same thing - married an American - LOL. But the one I have fallen in love with is the son, Robert. OMG - what a young man. One of my favorite scenes in the show is him, sitting on the head of a 15 foot croc they were moving in order to upgrade the habitat, with the zoo director, Steve's best mate Wes on his back to provide weight and a line of others on the croc behind him, and he is looking into the camera, covered in mud, calmly explaining about the shape of the animal's teeth and the bite pressure they can exert, while the animal is trying to thrash and kill him, and I am repeating in my head "HE IS FIFTEEN FREAKING YEARS OLD!!!" He is a fantastic photographer - we aren't talking point and shoot here - the framing of some of his stuff is something you can't teach. They are for sale at the zoo and all the proceeds go to...the wildlife med center. This young man has more gravitas at his young age than most people can amass in a lifetime. Terri done good!

[Chirps]

I found many dog breeding groups on FaceBook. If you can think it... there are a thousand FB groups discussing it. :tilt That includes squirrel groups but the misinformation disseminated on some of them made me insane. You know the drill... I raised a squirrel in 1998 on KMR and he did fine.
I couldn’t take it. :shakehead
One link did send me to a FB site but I couldn't navigate it. I'm not good with FB and not sure I want to be.

[CritterMom]

I found many dog breeding groups on FaceBook. If you can think it... there are a thousand FB groups discussing it. :tilt That includes squirrel groups but the misinformation disseminated on some of them made me insane. You know the drill... I raised a squirrel in 1998 on KMR and he did fine.
I couldn’t take it. :shakehead

What I want to know is where the %$## they are finding Royal Canin Babydog? I cannot find a US source anywhere - I looked all over when the Esbilac hit the fan last year. There used to be a little boutique dog store around the corner from me that was a Royal Canin distributor and I went in and asked them - they had never even heard of it! I am thinking this may be some sort of Pet Ag do not compete thing? I can't imagine why they would have their entire line of food EXCEPT formula here unless it is something like this.

[Chirps]

Ya know, I wasn't a big fan of Steve...his goofy demeanor, his apparent constant annoyance of the animals in order to get a reaction out of them for the camera, but I have learned about an awful lot of really GOOD things he did while not on camera and my feelings have changed a bit since his death. But Terri - now THAT is one impressive woman. Australia Zoo was a smallish local zoo with only native animals and she built it into a HUGE place more along the lines of San Diego. She partnered with some big corporations to get the funds to do so, and put into place all sorts of programs to curry favor with the ultra wealthy for same. She has always been disliked by some in Australia, an American who 'stole' their hero, and eventually had to boot Steve's father because he was doing everything he could to stymie her efforts. She even became an Australian citizen. Now of course, her daughter has gone and done the same thing - married an American - LOL. But the one I have fallen in love with is the son, Robert. OMG - what a young man. One of my favorite scenes in the show is him, sitting on the head of a 15 foot croc they were moving in order to upgrade the habitat, with the zoo director, Steve's best mate Wes on his back to provide weight and a line of others on the croc behind him, and he is looking into the camera, covered in mud, calmly explaining about the shape of the animal's teeth and the bite pressure they can exert, while the animal is trying to thrash and kill him, and I am repeating in my head "HE IS FIFTEEN FREAKING YEARS OLD!!!" He is a fantastic photographer - we aren't talking point and shoot here - the framing of some of his stuff is something you can't teach. They are for sale at the zoo and all the proceeds go to...the wildlife med center. This young man has more gravitas at his young age than most people can amass in a lifetime. Terri done good!
I've always loved the Irwins. Didn't know some of the stuff you mentioned, but I guess nothing's perfect family-interactionwise. Steve cracked me up because everyone was always "Me best mate So-and-So" although I know it is really true of Wes. Didn't know Bindi was married. Where does the time go? We still remember when she was 3 or so on one of the shows scolding Steve to get away from "her" spider they'd come upon.
She wanted to do the wrangling. The only time I've seen Robert was a spoof on Jimmy Fallon's Tonight Show on YouTube. It was done in fun but might seem abrasive to some people. But I was blown away by how much like Steve he was. You CAN'T not like him.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=UWelcIFAPxE

Several years ago I was driving and saw a garter snake in the street trying to get up the curb. I pulled over farther up and walked back to help it. As I was searching another car came by and I waved to ask if they'd seen the snake. I explained I wanted to make sure it was out of the road but wasn't sure where it was and had they seen it? The driver said no they hadn't but "Steven would be proud." It took a split second for me to realize who "Steven" was, and in the next second a wave of gratitude that she put me in his company was followed by a sense of Wow! that he had impacted so many people's attitudes about caring for wildlife his name was still being invoked years later. I did see it and got it up the curb safely.

[Mel1959]

What I want to know is where the %$## they are finding Royal Canin Babydog? I cannot find a US source anywhere - I looked all over when the Esbilac hit the fan last year. There used to be a little boutique dog store around the corner from me that was a Royal Canin distributor and I went in and asked them - they had never even heard of it! I am thinking this may be some sort of Pet Ag do not compete thing? I can't imagine why they would have their entire line of food EXCEPT formula here unless it is something like this.

I agree. I ran into the same situation at a local vets office. Instead of the typical Science Diet vet prescribed dog foods like I normally see, they had only Royal Canin products.......and there on the shelf sat several cans of Esbilac!! I asked the girl behind the counter about getting Baby dog and she looked at me like I had two heads! I then went on to enlighten her about the harm that Esbilac has caused and why.

The two large cans of Esbilac were manufactured prior to the problem, but I didn’t buy them....figured if someone walked in and needed Esbilac it would be better that they get the good (I use that term loosely:grin2) stuff and not the bad. Besides, I have a can of Baby dog in the freezer that came from the UK. Not only is the product pricey the shipping is too!

[stepnstone]

What I want to know is where the %$## they are finding Royal Canin Babydog? I cannot find a US source anywhere - I looked all over when the Esbilac hit the fan last year. There used to be a little boutique dog store around the corner from me that was a Royal Canin distributor and I went in and asked them - they had never even heard of it! I am thinking this may be some sort of Pet Ag do not compete thing? I can't imagine why they would have their entire line of food EXCEPT formula here unless it is something like this.
We have one of those little boutique dog stores here called "Unleashed," they are a division of Petco.
I was surprised to find Royal Canin among their (mostly Esbilac) pet formulas.

[island rehabber]

FWIW, our Petcos carry Royal Canin products.

[CritterMom]

FWIW, our Petcos carry Royal Canin products.

I bet they don't have the formula, though.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Although the Royal Canin dog and cat foods are available in the US, I couldn’t find a single distributor in the US of the formula.
I emailed the Royal Canin company and asked that question. Why is the formula not available in the US when their other products are sold here?
I never got an answer.
It can be purchased on Amazon for $39 and it ships from the UK. Totally impractical. :shakehead

[BCChins]

This is Royal Canin phone numbermaybe you can call them?? 1-800-592-6687