JD Marx has VERY high Keytone Count --Oh Boy [Archive]

stosh2010

08-10-2018, 07:03 PM

We noticed that the urine from J.D. Marx was "oily". Greasy to the touch. We googled and were told it can be a symptom of high Keytones. We have test strips and his urine produced almost the darkest result color..LARGE amount of keytones.
I think diet is a main reason and we will try to reduce some of the "sugars" in his diet. He eats the same as what the entire CREW eats daily.
His daily Coconut water serving is already less than the others.
J.D. is prone to seizures and since he was a baby...he has been on a Magnesium dosage twice a day to control them. Recently we noticed his urine dried leaving a powdery ring at the edges so we reduce the Magnesium -just a little. That helped with the powder effect.
NOW---we have to deal with high keytones.....
_________________________________________________
If anyone has had good results in reducing this type of problem.... PLEASE post suggestions.
J.D. has had a tough time since birth and this new situation is not welcomed.
THANKS for any & all help.

303852303853

stosh2010

08-10-2018, 07:07 PM

FYI
We urine tested the CREW..
The other three tested normal....

TubeDriver

08-10-2018, 07:27 PM

Any other symptoms noted recently? How is his weight?

JLM27

08-10-2018, 08:50 PM

Do you think he might have diabetes?

HRT4SQRLS

08-10-2018, 09:03 PM

Do you have a glucose test strip?

You need to push fluids. If I remember correctly JD is a handful. I'm not sure how you would do that. Ketones can be associated with dehydration secondary to diabetes. Fasting also causes high ketones.

stosh2010

08-10-2018, 11:20 PM

Do you have a glucose test strip? No-the ones we had were exposed to moisture--no good anymore.

You need to push fluids. If I remember correctly JD is a handful. I'm not sure how you would do that. Ketones can be associated with dehydration secondary to diabetes. Fasting also causes high ketones.
J.D. has been drinking a lot--lately...more that the others in our Crew.

HRT4SQRLS

08-10-2018, 11:24 PM

Drinking a lot is a definite sign of diabetes. :(

stosh2010

08-10-2018, 11:25 PM

Do you think he might have diabetes?
I'm not sure..............

stosh2010

08-10-2018, 11:28 PM

Any other symptoms noted recently? How is his weight?
He appears to maintain his weight.... I can't weigh that little (psycho) boy.
,

Diggie's Friend

08-11-2018, 04:06 AM

Is he the only one of the crew that is like 'crazy'?

I though to ask for diabetes effects the brain also.

Of course some squirrels just don't well accept human handling.

stosh2010

08-11-2018, 09:05 AM

Drinking a lot is a definite sign of diabetes. :(

Yeah--I thought that was a symptom...Little whirl-wind has his share of issues....

stosh2010

08-11-2018, 09:09 AM

Is he the only one of the crew that is like 'crazy'?

I though to ask for diabetes effects the brain also.

Of course some squirrels just don't well accept human handling.

Yes--J.D. can attack either one of us--at any time--with out provocation...(Surprise) Ya JUST NEVER KNOW when he will go from calm to CRAZY.
Rama Rota is always aggressive towards me and is totally loving with Rama Mama.
So I just don't interact. No surprises...
__________________________________________________ _
We still LOVE him 100%...we're just cautious ( that means 3 shirts and a sweatshirt--to mitigate any arm bites). However --even with that--JD did get Rama mama last week on the wrist. DEEP and Bloody.

54

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 11:50 AM

You need to push fluids. If I remember correctly JD is a handful. I'm not sure how you would do that. Ketones can be associated with dehydration secondary to diabetes. Fasting also causes high ketones.

He drinks so much I do not know if forcing more would help much....... plus I would never be able to hold him like would be
necessary. YIKES ! ! BUT, he loves ICE water from my cup, so I will try giving ice water {hope that's ok } to him in a syringe
through the day.....
I have been working with J.D. for many months now and although I still have to be SUPER careful {as he can turn aggressive
in a instant } he likes to be out with me and even wants to play. I just have to put on many heavy shirts and pay close attention to his moods.

I have noticed his ' excessive drinking' for some time..... I knew there was a possibility that he could be diabetic as he drinks so much more than the others but, ... I did not want to accept that possibility but kept watching him. Then I saw the oily pee not knowing which one did it and I could not remember what causes it so looked it up online. Once I read about the keytones and diabetes I started testing them all. We had the strips because Seis was diabetic. I suspected Mancha and or J.D. J.D. due to drinking so much water, and Mancha because she is somehow "not quite right" and is 'shaped' and acts a bit like Seis. Somethings not right but I do not know what it is. { All CR squirrels are long in body, all of ours have always been as such
except Seis who had health issues.

Back to JD.... his weight as of June 15, 2018 was 699 grams down from 723 in April of 2017. He stays pretty much the same....
big but not fat. I tested his last pee of the evening last night and his first of this morning.... both were identical to the pictures Stosh posted.

JD will ONLY eat in the morning hours...... refuses pretty much everything except a few tidbits and almendras in the afternoons.
He sometimes gets coconut meat in the mornings or afternoons or both....... coconut meat creates natural Keytones {BUMMER} and some studies show it helps with neurological diseases which would be good for him { a bunch of other good things too }.... but between the keytones and the sugar content.:tap big bummer Wilds eat coconut meat and drink the water all the time here, every day pretty much, as it is a huge part of their diet and during the dry season saves their lives.

HRT4SQURLS I finally noticed that when JD is not feeling good he has attacked me. He could attack other times as well I supposed but..... I learned this one day when he seemed out of sorts in his cage, but he had not been out at all the day before and I thought maybe he was just hyper from being cooped up. I let him out and although I could 'see/feel' that he was not feeling quite right, tried to have a normal out time with him and play time. In a flash I could see the change come over him and bamb, he grabbed me and began to bite. I got hold of him and it was only one deep puncture and back into his cage. Within a minute he had a pretty big seizure......... poor little guy.

I gave him a quarter of a piece of HHB this morning hoping he would eat it, he did some. I wish he would eat them more. I will keep trying. Just wanted to update and answer your question since I deal with him one on one a lot more than Stosh.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Since we are talking squirrel health and Mancha was brought up, we are having a problem getting her to readily 'chew' on almendra's or coconut, which she also does not or will not eat. It should be her 'natural instinct' to eat the almendra meat, coconut meat and to chew on both.......
even Luna and Rama who do not have all their teeth still have the desire and try.
? ? ?
I told Stosh we need to look at Mancha's mouth/teeth. It is not normal not to scritch like crazy.

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 12:10 PM

Is he the only one of the crew that is like 'crazy'?

I though to ask for diabetes effects the brain also.

Of course some squirrels just don't well accept human handling.

JD is the only one that will "attack" like he wants to kill and that only
on occasion. But I have to be careful all the time. .

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 12:22 PM

OK........ so now I am really confused. I have done more reading about the young coconuts meat and water and .... this is from
One article...

Research has shown that coconut water can lower blood sugar levels and improve other health markers in diabetic animals (8, 9, 10).

In one study, diabetic rats treated with coconut water maintained better blood sugar levels than other diabetic rats (9).

The same study also found that the rats had lower levels of hemoglobin A1c, a measure of long-term blood sugar control (9).

Another study found that providing the water to rats with diabetes led to improvements in blood sugar levels and reductions in markers of oxidative stress, including malondialdehyde (MDA) (10).

Sooooo, would the coconut be good for JD or not good? ?

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 01:16 PM

March 4th 2018 JD's Keytones were tested and he had barely a trace.

His PH level was perfectly balanced.

So, some time between March and the present something changed even tho his diet is always constant......
the changes come as various items come into season....... hmmmm. The one fruit I have been giving them
just recently is Petaya, the red dragon eggs as I call them grown from cacti plants here. Not really super sweet but....
He only gets it in the morning, of course, since that is when he eats most, BUT, I am going to cut that out from today
and test him several times a day for a week or so.
Does any one think this a good thing or am I just grasping at straws? ? ?

Frankly, I can not recall WHEN he started or HOW LONG he has been drinking a lot of water. During the dry
season we all drink a lot more. So HOT and dry !

Thoughts on this and previous posts ?
His super high Keytones could kill him so I am quite DISTRESSED ! ! !

I suppose my hands will break out again again due to the stress and worry. Bummer. They were just starting
to heal from the distress of losing Dude and Seis back to back.
:embar
-
:boohoo

Diggie's Friend

08-11-2018, 03:29 PM

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?57593-Diabetes-(Types-I-amp-II)-(Congenital-amp-Dietary)-Research-amp-Treatment-Strategies

HRT4SQRLS

08-11-2018, 03:38 PM

Poor Rosie, this has been a tough year for you guys. :grouphug

I wish I had an answer for this problem but unfortunately I don't. I think it's fair to assume that JD probably does have diabetes although we have no proof. I have no idea how you would lower the sugar in the diet when their diet is primarily fruit in the wild. Unfortunately we go back to that dilemma that always arises in that fruit might be what they eat in nature but we are very aware of their shortened life expectancy in nature. We can't duplicate the natural diet. In addition to fruit, they also eat bark, leaf buds, lichens, mushrooms, root bulbs, bugs and other things that they dig up.
I remember offering Susie a nut once. She was on a tree. We walked right past the nut and went to the ground. She scratched in the leaves and dug up a quarter sized mushroom and ate it. I was totally surprised by that.

Here is a TOTALLY crazy idea. Do you have any nuts (almonds, hazelnuts or pecans)?
It's just an experiment if you want to try it. I'm just trying to think of a way to eliminate most of the dietary sugar for 24 hrs. You could him an HHB and a couple calcium dusted nuts only. Just for grins give him some leafy veggies. I doubt he will eat them. Give him a tree branch. NO fruit for 24 hrs. Test his urine after 24 hrs and see if the ketones go down at all. It's just a crazy idea. I'm the LAST person on earth to give diet advice because I'm losing my hair from lack of protein in the diet. :peace

He won't starve in 24 hrs and at least it's worth a try.

HRT4SQRLS

08-11-2018, 03:46 PM

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?57593-Diabetes-(Types-I-amp-II)-(Congenital-amp-Dietary)-Research-amp-Treatment-Strategies

I was hoping you would come to Rosie's thread Diggie. Diet is certainly not my area. :peace

Diggie's Friend

08-11-2018, 03:59 PM

I found this also, it is about good ketones in fruit that aren't related to Ketoacidosis. It may be the fruit you fed raise this form, and if so there would be no negative health issues on that account. As far as another, that I couldn't guess to say.

https://www.perfectketo.com/raspberry-ketones-nothing-with-ketosis/

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 05:06 PM

Okay, so .... tested JD at 6am this morn.... JD Keytones as high as they could register...

by 11:30am they are down to nothing and PH is completely Normal.

What ? ? ! ! ? ?

I understand the numbers can go up and down a bit, but really..........

Going to test this afternoon once I can get another pee sample.

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 05:15 PM

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?57593-Diabetes-(Types-I-amp-II)-(Congenital-amp-Dietary)-Research-amp-Treatment-Strategies

How do we know which trees here have that chemical in them or maybe most do?

They eat the bark and leaves off the branches we put in the play rooms all the time, but not sure about the composition of them.
They love the peeled bark and the leaves of the almendra's and the Guanacaste and a few others we offer but still do not know what
is in them. They just eat them.
No acorns here .....
I will read further on the site. See if I can glean anything else.
Thanks

RamaMama

08-11-2018, 05:23 PM

Here is a TOTALLY crazy idea. Do you have any nuts (almonds, hazelnuts or pecans)?
It's just an experiment if you want to try it. I'm just trying to think of a way to eliminate most of the dietary sugar for 24 hrs. You could him an HHB and a couple calcium dusted nuts only. Just for grins give him some leafy veggies. I doubt he will eat them. Give him a tree branch. NO fruit for 24 hrs. Test his urine after 24 hrs and see if the ketones go down at all. It's just a crazy idea. I'm the LAST person on earth to give diet advice because I'm losing my hair from lack of protein in the diet. :peace

He won't starve in 24 hrs and at least it's worth a try.

Our babies are not fond of "nuts' other than almendra's. JD will eat walnuts when he feels like it, and just a little of California Almonds. Like you said, they would gobble the mushroom and ignore the nuts if they had the choice. JD loves his greens so that will not be a problem to get him to eat.
As I stated in a most recent post I tested him again at 11:30am and everything was normal and this was about an hour or two after he ate his huge breakfast.
Going to test him again tonight.
I will plan to do as you suggested depending on the evening test result...... not sure about the spiking. It is a juggling act here.

:Love_Icon

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 09:54 AM

Started J.D. on his limited diet for the day....
this morning his keytones were once again sky high.

I have been trying to read up on Keytones and came across this information:
Ketones are molecules that your heart, brain and muscles can use for energy, instead of sugar or fat. Most of your cells are actually 25 percent more efficient when using ketones instead of sugar. Having ketones circulating in your blood can help prevent seizures in epileptics and could also help protect you against neurodegenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases.

That's just great. Here we are trying our so hard to limit or stop his seizures in which keytones can help and now the
keytones could harm him. Perfect. Just stinking perfect. I know too many keytones could cause coma and death so
that is scary, but now I am very concerned that once we lower the keytones his seizures will increase.
Any one have any knowledge about this ? ? ?

He still has seizures, had a couple of big ones recently, just not as many as when he does not get the magnesium.

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 10:10 AM

Was the high reading before he ate or after?

It's a total mystery to me. Do you think the high levels might be related to the magnesium?

TubeDriver

08-12-2018, 10:47 AM

Did you change anything in his diet during the last 24 hours?

Okay, so .... tested JD at 6am this morn.... JD Keytones as high as they could register...

by 11:30am they are down to nothing and PH is completely Normal.

What ? ? ! ! ? ?

I understand the numbers can go up and down a bit, but really..........

Going to test this afternoon once I can get another pee sample.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 11:15 AM

Was the high reading before he ate or after?

It's a total mystery to me. Do you think the high levels might be related to the magnesium?

The high readings were periodical throughout the day.....the low one was taken in the
afternoon... he will not eat usually in the afternoons except for some young coconut meat, almendra's, and walnuts.
He refuses all other food except on occasion he will eat his Romaine/Bib lettuce in the afternoon's.
I could not get any good pee to test last night. Bummer !

I read the info in the link Diggie'sFriend provided. I am now thinking it may very well BE the magnesium
that could be the problem. Below is a quote from that same article:

Ketone Salts
A ketone body is typically bound to sodium, calcium, magnesium or potassium. While it may not be as effective at raising ketone levels, it’s much easier on your digestive system.

I am also VERY confused and as you state, it is a mystery....... the magnesium helps with the seizures although I have to keep adjusting it a bit. One day twice a day, the next once, and on and on. Maybe that IS what is creating the excess keytones. I only have about 10 strips left, due to having tested the other babies several times through the days. They are all perfect, even Miss Potato Head Mancha.
I want to add that I did a taste test on J.D.'s urine and it is like syrup.... so he is not processing sugars it is being passed out in his urine.
Maybe there are two separate problems happening at the same time ? ? ?

Any one else have any suggestions? for J.D

I will keep J.D. Marx on the limited diet for today...... see what happens as this is his twice a day dose of the Mag. It may not matter as I suppose the Mag could be built up in his system. { ? }

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 11:31 AM

Did you change anything in his diet during the last 24 hours?

No. But today he is getting no fruits nor the squash seeds, nor any seeds. Only HHB's, some leafy greens,
almonds and walnuts. That's pretty much it. I think. Oh but he has been given Almendra's and branches
and leaves to eat.
HOPE that's okay.
Some one tell me if it is not.

TubeDriver

08-12-2018, 12:13 PM

Is that almonds? A few should not hurt.

No. But today he is getting no fruits nor the squash seeds, nor any seeds. Only HHB's, some leafy greens,
almonds and walnuts. That's pretty much it. I think. Oh but he has been given Almendra's and branches
and leaves to eat.
HOPE that's okay.
Some one tell me if it is not.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 12:28 PM

More confusion going on here.... second quote from an article:

Ketones are not present in foods. Although ketones are a source of energy that almost all of your body cells can use, ketones are actually a byproduct of fat oxidation. In other words, when your body burns fat, it produces ketones that can be used for energy. The more fat your body burns, the more ketones are produced. Although foods do not have ketones, the foods you choose can help you promote ketosis -

So, does this mean that J.D.'s body is burning too much FAT and not using the glucose to fuel the body ?? so the sugar is being thrown out in his urine. Or is this some thing different than what is happening to JD ?

Also read that Magnesium can affect blood sugar. ? ? Just didn't say in what way.

IF.... IF I could get a urine sample to have tested for diabetes what would they look for? Just sugar? because we know he
has, at least most of the time, high sugar levels in his urine.

If today's diet restrictions do nothing dose any one think maybe I should take JD OFF the Mag for a bit and see if the keytones go down? I have no way to test for the sugar in his urine other than the taste test which I do not mind. I do realize IF I take him off the Mag he could start having more or bigger seizures..... but need to know what is wrong with him. Thoughts on this ? ?

cava

08-12-2018, 12:42 PM

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 12:58 PM

Is that almonds? A few should not hurt.

Giving him both California almonds { only a little as he does not care for them too too much}
and the local Almendra almonds.
Is that bad????

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 01:03 PM

You mentioned you tested for ketones after a meal and there were none. That makes me think his body was using the sugar in the food he ate as fuel (v burning fat for fuel). Did you also mention he only eats in the morning? If so, may be his afternoon/evening fasting is causing ketones.

I suggest, before making any other changes, to get a clear picture of the effect of his diet. When he eats, what he eats, when you are testing and when you are getting ketones and in what relation to his eating habits. Test urine throughout the day for a few days.

If you make numerous changes at once (quitting Mag, removing fruit, changing diet) and something goes well or poorly you don't know what caused the reaction because you did more than one change.

I already started him on the very limited diet early this morning. { ? } Guess I will finish the day?? ? ? ?? Or should I not?
Will not take him off the Mag right now. Will see what his afternoon and morning urine test shows and then take it from there I guess unless anyone thinks it is imperative that I change what I am doing right now. I only have a few of the test strips left so I have be be careful or I won't be able to test him at all.

He has only eaten some greens, bib lettuce, and a tiny bit of Romaine and culantro, maybe 1 HHB, some almendra bark and
almendra nuts.

cava

08-12-2018, 01:08 PM

RamaMama, will you be getting more test strips?

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 01:36 PM

If you make numerous changes at once (quitting Mag, removing fruit, changing diet) and something goes well or poorly you don't know what caused the reaction because you did more than one change.

I 100% agree. Change one thing at a time. Don't stop the magnesium. Actually, if the Mg is controlling the seizures that is way more important than the ketones.
An uncontrollable seizure can cause death.

The diet change was to get the sugar WAY down and see if it makes a difference.
Is almendra a nut? I apparently missed that. I thought it was another fruit.

JLM27

08-12-2018, 02:21 PM

Have you checked his digs for a stash? Maybe he is eating when you don't know it.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 02:30 PM

I 100% agree. Change one thing at a time. Don't stop the magnesium. Actually, if the Mg is controlling the seizures that is way more important than the ketones.
An uncontrollable seizure can cause death.

The diet change was to get the sugar WAY down and see if it makes a difference.
Is almendra a nut? I apparently missed that. I thought it was another fruit.

Almendra's are a nut........ but, the outside is covered with a layer of 'meat'. He has never like it
or ate it, of course until today so that was bad. He hasn't had any more except those that have ALL
the meat scraped off.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 02:33 PM

J.D. urine tested 12:00 pm

PH - extremely Alkaline, almost as high as it can get on the test strip.

Keytones - Moderate

Urine taste test - Sugar water, extremely sweet.

How long might it take for the sugar to leave his system?

I usually give JD his Mag between 5 and 7pm. Should I try giving it much earlier to see if there is a change?

I thought high Keytones could cause coma and death. ? ? ? The high content of sugar is as bad or worse ? ? ?

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 02:39 PM

Have you checked his digs for a stash? Maybe he is eating when you don't know it.

He does not have a stash, but that was a good idea.
He is scarfing all his greens.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 02:41 PM

HOW MUCH GREENS CAN I GIVE JD IN ONE DAY ? ? ? ?

Other than the walnuts he isn't eating anything. He does not like HHB's, never has.
only Boo Balls...... but they have a lot of "STUFF" in them.

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 02:56 PM

What kind of stuff?

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 03:24 PM

What kind of stuff?

The recipe I have:

HHB
FV
NUTS - 1/2 WALNUTS AND 1/2 ALMONDS
PLUM BABY FOOD
COCONUT OIL

That's the stuff. It is what I put his Mag in, so he gets two tiny Boo Balls. One morning and one night.
I read that coconut oil increases Keytones, and then there is the baby food with sugar in it as well. And
before any one asks about Organic - No it is not. Not HERE !

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 03:31 PM

Could you make it without the plum baby food? I'm not sure it would stick together without it though. I wouldn't worry about the coconut oil now. One thing at a time.

Mel1959

08-12-2018, 03:38 PM

You could try using a vegetable baby food like carrots or squash instead of the plum.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 03:56 PM

Could you make it without the plum baby food? I'm not sure it would stick together without it though. I wouldn't worry about the coconut oil now. One thing at a time.

You are right, it would not stick together....... and as was ask by another concerned TSB member, no I won't try carrot or squash
simply because my HHB's are very limited. I have just a little more than a half a bag right now. I can not waste them on the chance that the babies would not eat with carrot or squash. I know they do not like carrot. But I can't be sure about the squash.

If JD can not or should not have boo balls as they are then I will have to try to give him his Mag in some other way. It is the only way he has ever taken the
Mag. Each Boo Ball with meds are just a little larger than a pea.

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 06:07 PM

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 06:22 PM

Do what you have to do to give the meds.

This was just an experiment. In the long term it won't make any difference. When you said he was 'scarfing his greens' I was surprised. In the healthy diet, greens will always be favored over fruit. If there are no other symptoms, I wouldn't worry about a positive ketone test strip. It appears to fluctuate. We have no idea why.

I have read in the past that a diet high in fructose (fruit sugar) predisposes rodents to diabetes. I think it is reasonable to assume that he probably does have diabetes. I realize your diet choices are limited in CR. I guess the bottom line is that I would try to reduce some of the sugary fruit in favor of the greens. That's really all you can do. I would also dust the food a couple times a week with calcium carbonate powder to offset low calcium that could be an issue due to Almendras. I do that with my flyers occasionally just as a precaution. The calcium might actually help with the seizures.

That's really all I've got.

Wondering --- why would almendra's cause low cal levels?
I will see if Stosh can find some calcium carbonate powder. The only calcium I have are the chilly chews which I use a cheese grater to turn it into a fine powder..... but I had to stop as several of them started passing urine with the powder in it. But I will try giving JD a small amount. Maybe the cal carbonate will be different.

I did test JD at 4 pm all three test results were about the same. The urine is a little less sweet and has just a tiny bit of a tang to it, the ph is exactly the same super alkaline, but the Keytones are so high the color strip looked almost black. What is THAT all about ! ? ! I do not know. ! !
I mean, how long does it take sugar to leave the system when barely anything is being eaten except greens ! ! Geeze !

HRT4SQRLS

08-12-2018, 06:42 PM

Wondering --- why would almendra's cause low cal levels?
I will see if Stosh can find some calcium carbonate powder. The only calcium I have are the chilly chews which I use a cheese grater to turn it into a fine powder..... but I had to stop as several of them started passing urine with the powder in it. But I will try giving JD a small amount. Maybe the cal carbonate will be different.

I did test JD at 4 pm all three test results were about the same. The urine is a little less sweet and has just a tiny bit of a tang to it, the ph is exactly the same super alkaline, but the Keytones are so high the color strip looked almost black. What is THAT all about ! ? ! I do not know. ! !
I mean, how long does it take sugar to leave the system when barely anything is being eaten except greens ! ! Geeze !

You describe almendras as nuts. All nuts are high in phosphorus so I assume that almendras are as well. High phosphorus in nuts is in direct competition with the calcium. If the phosphorus in the diet is too high the body will pull calcium from the bones to balance it out. This is what causes Metabolic Bone Disease.
Too many nuts and seeds = Metabolic Bone Disease. A nut as a treat is fine but too many are deadly for squirrels.

The chilly chews are fine. They are primarily calcium carbonate. Everything must be in moderation. Shave a little over his food a couple times a week.... not a lot.

Rosie, I would stop testing the sugar the way you are. That could be dangerous and with the limited medical resources in CR I wouldn't risk it.

Diggie's Friend

08-12-2018, 07:03 PM

To determine the mean urine pH, take at least 3 readings one hour after each meal, and then one the next day before the first meal of the first urine of the day. Then add up readings and divide the total number taken to get the mean urine pH value for your squirrel's urine.

A good balance of Calcium to Phosphorus should produce a mean urine pH in the mid to high 6 range, that is (6.4 to 6.9) according to Veterinarian science standards. I also tested this out on my research diet that provides an optimum Ca:P ratio of approx. 2.7:1 for adult squirrels. The higher the calcium to Phosphorus ratio the higher the ratio of Ca:P will be. It is for this reason that pH testing is used as a tool to monitor the Ca:P ratio.

There is one thing though that can raise the urine pH that is not promoted by Calcium, for bacteria promote alkaline pH in the urine also.

If he doesn't have loose stool then the magnesium isn't too high, save he has kidney failure; yet even then some magnesium would be needed.

Coconut water is high in potassium; no more than (1/4 to 1/2 Tsp.) daily. If you have been giving more than this, and the ketones from this source were causing them to elevate, the reading should lower.

What you have now is a flip of the pH to too alkaline being heavy on the greens that produces an alkaline (high) urine pH. For though juveniles require more greens in their diet to balance the greater amount they require of rodent block, a little greens go along ways in supporting a healthy normal mean urine pH value for urine. If you blanch/boil the leafy greens, and vegetables you may be able to feed a bit greater amount, for cooking lowers their alkalinity.

For the lighter leafy greens blanch 1 minute, and for heavier greens, like cabbage and Kales, blanch (boil) up to (5 to 10) minutes. For stalked vegetables, boil up to 20 minutes. Best to do test boiling of heavier leafy greens, as to not end up with 'green glop' from over cooking.

Feed fresh baked squash, just don't add the HHB to it as you wrote. Baked squash is lower in sugars and carbs, and in soluble oxalates (highly acidic), than sweet potatoes and yams by comparison. Squash also can help to maintain a steady blood sugar.

Plain yogurt, with no sugars added, be they natural or artificial that are super acidic, is the best option for the diet.

If the seizures are being brought on by fruits in the diet, feed only a small amount of those fruits that are lowest in sugars.

Though it would require a work up on your part as to how much calcium and phosphorus your diet contains, the optimum range for (Ca:P) for the adults of ate least 18 mo. of age, (2:1 to 3:1) Ca:P ratio in research was found optimum to support calcium retention in the bones, bone density, and bone compression strength.

RamaMama wrote: Almendra's are a nut.

The values noted for calcium and phosphorus noted for the, 'Tropical Almond' appears to be identical for (100 g.) of Almonds noted from the USDA Food Database.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/3085/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3085/2)

In spite of the closer ratio of (Ca:P) for Almonds of (0.54: 1), with (222.7 mg. per 100 g.) of soluble oxalate (oxalic acid), and (264 mg. per 100 g.) of calcium, with (484 mg. per 100 g.) of Phosphorus, leaves little calcium left once the source is digested where calcium and oxalic acid bond into the insoluble form of Calcium oxalate that the body cannot use to supply calcium. Approx. (41.3 mg. per 100 g.) would be left, leaving an inverted (P : Ca) ratio of approx. (11.7 :1). This is how all these sources are due to the high amount of oxalic acid that they contain. English Walnuts by comparison are relatively low, as are pecans.

Dried Pumpkin seeds have a higher magnesium content by weight than almonds do, so no loss there.

These are the soluble oxalate (oxalic acid) values of imported nuts to New Zealand. (see pdf file 'Soluble oxalates in nuts', for more details)

European Pinenuts aka: (Pignolies): (581.0 mg.) (per 100 g.)

Candle nuts: (315.9 mg.) per 100 g.

Brazil nuts: (304.5 mg.) per 100 g.

Almonds: (222.7 mg.) per 100 g.

Cashew nuts (roasted): (216.8 mg.) per 100 g.

cava

08-12-2018, 07:05 PM

Something else also occurred to me. When I was a vet tech it didn't take much to damage the urine test strips from humidity to simply being outdated. If compromised they'd give us an inaccurate reading. Just something to consider.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 07:52 PM

Mean urine pH determination requires taking at least 3 readings one hour after each meal, and then one the next day before the first meal of the first urine of the day. Then total the reading values, and divide by 4 to get the mean urine pH value for the urine. Balancing the diet pH wise should produce a mean urine pH in the mid to high 6 range, that is (6.4 to 6.9).
OUCH ! WoW ! I am so distressed I will have to read this over and over to get it down. So, what I have been doing is pointless ?
I don't have any idea how to start tomorrow off as far as feeding goes to keep or get his levels down. I mean the sugar is
still in his urine tonight and the keytones are really bad.
Will test the keytones in the morning. I don't know how much it matters but I do not want him to go into a coma and or die.

Coconut water is high in potassium, that is more like no more than 1/4 to 1/2 Tsp. daily; this should lower the reading of keytones if this is the source causing a rise in ketones.
When coconut water was given JD got 3 cc. at night after his meds JD has had no coconut water for 48 hours. Tonight his Keytones were so high the strip looked almost black. So am I not to give him ANY or give him just a tiny bit? ? He can go without.

What you have now is a flip of the pH to too alkaline being heavy on the greens that produces the super high urine pH.

You won't need a high amount of greens, as a little greens goes along ways as far as supporting a balanced pH in the diet I have found in my diet research. I wouldn't feed more than 1/2 Tsp. raw, yet if you boiled them you can feed allot more up to 1 Tbsp. Boiling the greens will reduce their higher pH will support the diet with calcium that they contain, but will reduce potassium. 1 minute for the lighter greens, and a bit more for the heavier ones; just don't boil them to where they turn into green glop.

This also is a good protocol to use to kill bacteria, and other parasites, worms etc.

I would still feed baked squash, lower in sugars, super support for blood sugar; just like you wrote, don't add the HHB to it.

Yogurt plain with no sugars be they natural or artificial that are super acidic.

For alkaline source use Cantaloupe as it is alkalizing to the urine.
I will offer Cantaloupe but they really do not like it and usually just leave it lay all day.

You wrote you already have a work up for fruits; just pick those that promote neutral to alkaline mean urine pH instead of those that promote acidity.

This nut, along with the Almond is very highly acidic, see study data file:

This nut, that belongs to the 'Spurge family', is a very high source of oxalic acid.

The Candle nut at (315.9 mg.), is 2nd only in oxalic acid content to that of the “Italian Pine nut“ noted at (581.0 mg.) in this study.

I will do some of the things you suggest and look into others but, you have researched the wrong type of tree/nut. But, almendras are high in phosphorus so will have to be careful with that. Not sure about all the other vitamins and minerals etc. but even the bark and leaves have many great benefits. Here is a link to the correct type of tree and nut:
https://drhealthbenefits.com/food-bevarages/fruits/health-benefits-of-tropical-almond

Maybe after reading about the correct tree / nut you may some more info on the good and the bad.
We only know that the squs here eat them all the time and the hulls will literally cover the ground.

[QUOTE]Pumpkin seeds dried have a higher content level of magnesium than do almonds, so no loss there.
We do not have pumpkins here and to buy a tiny package of the seeds, if we can find them, is super expensive.

Just make sure you add sufficient calcium to the diet to support the optimum ratios of 1.3: 1.5 for juveniles, and 2:1 to 3:1 for adults of at least 18 months of age.
You will need the squash to support calories and nutrients instead of using these nuts.
We have a dark orange squash that is very much like a pumpkin but do not know any of it's mineral/vitamin base but they love it..... except Mancha. I will add the powder cal several times a week being cautious not to over medicate, I hope.

RamaMama

08-12-2018, 08:03 PM

You describe almendras as nuts. All nuts are high in phosphorus so I assume that almendras are as well. High phosphorus in nuts is in direct competition with the calcium. If the phosphorus in the diet is too high the body will pull calcium from the bones to balance it out. This is what causes Metabolic Bone Disease.
Too many nuts and seeds = Metabolic Bone Disease. A nut as a treat is fine but too many are deadly for squirrels.

The chilly chews are fine. They are primarily calcium carbonate. Everything must be in moderation. Shave a little over his food a couple times a week.... not a lot.

Rosie, I would stop testing the sugar the way you are. That could be dangerous and with the limited medical resources in CR I wouldn't risk it.

Okay, I will stop testing for the sugar by tasting but how will I know ? ? Yes, almendra's are high in phosphorus. We try to follow what the wilds do, but we could over do too. We know they eat a lot of them esp in the dry season but no way to count how many an individual squ may consume. HA !

Diggie's Friend

08-12-2018, 11:13 PM

Not pointless RM, just not as accurate. Say you get 8.0 for one reading; this doesn't mean the mean will be the same, as it can be lower, with 8.0 a pH spike reading from greens generally. It could also be that the paper isn't any good anymore as Cava wrote?

For now give the baked squash a whirl. If you have a good plain yogurt source use that also.

In humans calcium loss with our diets isn't a big deal, as most of the bonded oxalates are eliminated out the bowl. Yet in rats and tree squirrels, though allot is lost out the bowel, much is still absorbed into the bloodstream, where the calcium bonded to oxalic acid in the form of insoluble oxalates CaOx are filtered out by the kidneys they will often form crystals that can grown into larger masses of crystals (stones) if the pH of the diet is under 6.0 .

At the other end of the spectrum, in alkaline urine above 7.0 calcium is lost due to the body adjusting the pH in the bloodstream, where it dumps calcium phosphate to keep it steady. Then the urine becomes alkaline which promotes Calcium phosphate crystals to form in a disassociated mass, like a swarm of bees; when the mass gets dense enough in crystals it will abrade the lining of the bladder causing swelling and infection. If then the diet isn't corrected, and ABs are administered, then it can result in an ascending infection and lead to early mortality.

Yet both of these conditions are preventable save for very old animals whose kidney function lowers as it does in all that reach advanced age. For the rest it is just a matter getting the pH within the mid to high 6 range that veterinarians cite as normal for small mammals. In research into other species of tree squirrels besides just the E. Gray squirrels, the same range of mean urine pH has been found to be the normal.

p.s. In my previous post just after I posted it, I realized I noted the total oxalates, not the soluble oxalates (oxalic acid) values. I requested an edit, so be sure to go back to read it over as the last part of the post will be changed. What isn't changed is the outcome of diets too high in nuts that tend to promote highly acidic urine; and likewise, diets too high in raw greens produce high pH alkaline pH. With the goal for diet being to support sufficient nutrients, but also a healthy range of mean urine pH, by testing the urine you caught that there may be an imbalance, that is as they say, half way to resolving the issue.

Just keep in mind that when taking urine pH readings, that some readings will reflect the spikes in pH promoted by alkaline foods, and not assume what the mean urine pH is on the basis of one reading you got was high. This is why it is needful to take as many readings as you can get in one day and then the key one the next morning before meals hopefully the first urine of the day. One way to catch the urine is to use wax paper on the bottom of the cage. Be sure the urine has just been deposited, not allowed to cool, for when it cools the pH will rise as bacteria begins to increase, and so not reflect what the true pH of the urine in the body,

Diggie's Friend

08-12-2018, 11:38 PM

That is the same exact amounts of calcium and phosphorus that 100 g. of almonds are noted to have by the USDA. My edit I hope will be posted by tomorrow notes these same amounts. This is what you were referring to then as "Almendra"?

What are you referring to then as a walnut you feed? Is it the Persian or English walnut, or Mexican walnut, or your native tropical walnut, or some other walnut species?

You mentioned the Dragon fruit: Pitaya (Dragon Fruit) Hylocereus undatus,: The seeds are eaten together with the flesh, but they are indigestible unless chewed. The fruit is also converted into juice or wine, or used to flavour other beverages. The flowers can be eaten or steeped as tea. It grows on a cactus plant.

Not sure of pH, I had a piece of this at a local Asian buffet. Didn't know what it was till just now when I saw it on a page.

Keep in mind that the amounts that wilds consume is more than what your squirrels need living inside calorie, protein, fats, and carb wise, as they aren't as active as the wilds.

Diggie's Friend

08-13-2018, 01:49 AM

On second thought, since cantaloupe is higher in potassium as many tropical fruits are, I would wait on that one for now, and focus on getting the pH of the urine lower.

What I did to balance the pH of my diet for tree squirrels was to include both acidic, alkaline, and neutral food sources together to support a balance of pH.

Here's a thought, why not test the urine of a couple of your other squirrels and see how they comes out? If you get a lower pH then you can know that it isn't likely the strips; yet if you get the same high readings even so the diet is alkalized by feeding more greens, then the possibility of the pH strips being out of whack is more than likely.

What I can recommend is the baked squash, fruits neither highly acidic nor alkaline, boiled (blanched) leafy greens (1 min.) stalked veggies ( up to 20 min.), or lowering the amount of greens significantly, as to lower the pH of the diet, so that the mean urine pH falls between the two pH extremes.

Nuts and seeds that are lower in oxalates like the Persian or English walnut can be fed in small measures, yet avoid tropical walnut (candlenut) that is very high in oxalic acid, tropical almond, brazil nut, cashew, and Euro Pinenut.

Getting powdered calcium source, and plain lowfat yogurt to put the powder into so that it isn't inhaled when the squirrel sniff it, is very important.

Magnesium needs to be supported in the diet in a closer ratio that helps to inhibit seizures. Again shelled pumpkin seeds, 'pepitas', contain more magnesium by wt. than almonds.

Figuring out what is causing this will at least require testing strips like the ones from Mission, and perhaps a stool test, and blood test, and consultation with a veterinarian..

Mel1959

08-13-2018, 09:07 AM

RamaMama

08-13-2018, 11:38 AM

On second thought, since cantaloupe is higher in potassium as many tropical fruits are, I would wait on that one for now, and focus on getting the pH of the urine lower.

What I did to balance the pH of my diet for tree squirrels was to include both acidic, alkaline, and neutral food sources together to support a balance of pH.

Here's a thought, why not test the urine of a couple of your other squirrels and see how they comes out? If you get a lower pH then you can know that it isn't likely the strips; yet if you get the same high readings even so the diet is alkalized by feeding more greens, then the possibility of the pH strips being out of whack is more than likely.
All the squs were tested 3 X a day for two days. All had normal PH through out the days. JD's was normal as well UNTIL the day that he did not eat hardly anything {yesterday } as he was given very limited foods and 3 pcs of greens. Then the PH went sky high. This morning it is normal again but will test through the day. The instructions simply say to test 3 X a day so that is what I did. His keytones have not gone down at all no matter what he does or does not eat.

Nuts and seeds that are lower in oxalates like the Persian or English walnut can be fed in small measures, yet avoid tropical walnut (candlenut) that is very high in oxalic acid, tropical almond, brazil nut, cashew, and Euro Pinenut.
IF the package says what kind I can't find it. A friend is coming this evening who is Costa Rican, will ask him to read the package
and see if he can find anything about what type the walnuts are.

Figuring out what is causing this will at least require testing strips like the ones from Mission, and perhaps a stool test, and blood test, and consultation with a veterinarian..
What do we ask them to look for? or do we just give the symptoms and let them do tests?

RamaMama

08-13-2018, 11:53 AM

Could the walnuts be affecting JD's Keytones ? ? ?

Maybe I will cut them out completely for a few days. He will not be happy........ he is the only one who really loves
them. I use them to get him into various areas without his going nuts and they were 1/2 of the nuts used to make the
Boo Balls.

What type of nuts to people use to make boo balls? ? ?

We are limited in what we can buy here. Mostly walnuts and almonds. That's it. So just wondering.

Some of this is really confusing. I mean Rama will be nine in December and he is very healthy. The others eat the
same stuff as he does, except for the extra walnuts JD gets to control him. So what's the problem ? ? ?

RamaMama

08-13-2018, 12:19 PM

TubeDriver

08-13-2018, 02:39 PM

The next time you get a bad reading, repeat the test with a second strip but use the same urine sample. Just wondering if the strips are not consistent?

Just as a note - because this is soooo CONFUSING !

Just tested JD pee cause he did a big one; keytones and PH perfect.
What ?

How could the keytones be so high for so long and then BAMB - normal ? ? ?

I fed him "normal" today. Will check again this afternoon and over the next few days....
see what comes.
No clue about the sugar though.

RamaMama

08-13-2018, 04:32 PM

Rosie, can you get other rodent block like Harlan Teklad sent to CR? Harlan block is cheap, only a couple of dollars a pound. I realize shipping might be expensive, but it might be awash compared to the cost of HHB’s. I’m not suggesting that you stop the HHB’s, I was just thinking of another source of complete nutrition that can be ground up and made into boo balls.

I’d be happy to send you some Harlan block if you’d like to try it. :grin2. I’m in Florida.

It isn't the cost of buying the HHB's - it's that when it is shipped Custom's keep confiscating the products then wants to charge us exorbitant amount to get it back. Usually we try to bring a bunch back with us when we go to the US or if some one we know comes to CR they bring it. We now have our own PO box and are going to try a few test runs having various things shipped. But nothing too expensive and there is the possibility it will still be confiscated by customs. We are hoping not. It sure would make things easier.

There are no good 'rodent blocks' here. Not around Coco anyway and my guys do not 'eat' them out right. We have always given it to them when they were little, putting it with them in their nest box to get used to the smell and nibble on, but only Seis and now on occasion Mancha, will really chew on them to any extent
and that isn't much. I have even tried to mix up FV formula and soaking the blocks in the warm milk. Rama and JD will scarf the FV formula straight but add it
to the HHB and as much as they love the warm FV they will not eat the block. They just keep making circles above it with their noses like they want the FV but can't get past the block.

RamaMama

08-13-2018, 04:38 PM

The next time you get a bad reading, repeat the test with a second strip but use the same urine sample. Just wondering if the strips are not consistent?

As soon as I did the test and it was 'normal' I grabbed another test strip to double check the same pee. Same result.

Stosh checked the Pharm here and they do not have any kind of test strips and said they can't even order any because it
isn't in their 'system'. Stosh will check will another Pharm just to be sure it isn't just that one place.

Diggie's Friend

08-13-2018, 04:39 PM

It could be that you have a few lemons in that basket so to speak,

especially considering that the tests for your other squirrels came out normal.

At nine years of age the thing you have to keep an eye out for it overly high urine pH with the males.

If the strips are good that are coming out high, again that may be a spike in the urine that happens from

feeding greens. Recently in my diet research a pH spike to occur during the day not long after feeding

boiled greens; yet it was only just the one. In reading in the study in gray squirrels done back in the 70's

the range of pH is noted as (6.0 to 8.0), but the mean was (6.4). This means that most of the readings

taken were closet to 6.4 the mean, yet there was an occasional spike that shot it up to 8.0. This corroborates

what I have found, and likely what you have as well, save if those test strips were bad.

You should see the pH spike soon after feeding raw greens and then it will drop down again.

Again you should not assume that the urine pH is overly high based upon just one higher reading (spike).

If say you were to get a consistent readings of over 7.0, then that would mean that the mean urine pH

was abnormally elevated, and that the diet would then need to be adjusted to reduce the mean urine pH

in support of inhibiting calcium loss and stone formation that alkaline pH is known to cause.

I hope that makes more sense and helps to put your mind at ease at least in this regard.

Diggie's Friend

08-13-2018, 04:58 PM

Just as a note - because this is soooo CONFUSING !

Just tested JD pee cause he did a big one; keytones and PH perfect.
What ?

How could the keytones be so high for so long and then BAMB - normal ? ? ?

I fed him "normal" today. Will check again this afternoon and over the next few days....
see what comes.
No clue about the sugar though.

As for the Ketone spike, that I don't know for sure at present; it's the kind of question I would ask a veterinarian.

To get the mean urine pH the protocol that works best is to include one before meals, from the first urine of the next day

following at least three readings; for the more readings you get, the more accurate the mean value will be as to reflect the effect

of the diet on the health of his urinary tract, and kidney function that the spike of ketones may be related to.

It may be that the ketones are reflecting his kidney function lowering; if so the diet may need to be adjusted to support them.

Just a thought, try adding just a bit of cooked plain oatmeal to his diet; it may help to steady his blood sugar levels.

RamaMama

08-15-2018, 12:14 PM

So yesterday JD's Keytones were high in the morning but not as high as the day before. Both yesterday and the day before the
afternoon readings were 'normal'.

I could not get a reading today until 9:50am - after he had eaten quite a bit of food - Keytones were normal. I was told by
some one who had a squ with the same problem {years ago } that JD must eat to lower the keytones.

Maybe it is why after fasting from 12 or 1 pm till morning his keytones are so high? ? Don't know for sure nor why for
several days it stayed as high as the reading could take. Just know their being high is very dangerous.

Weight today is 704 grms.

Now to consider the possible diabetes. Isn't that connected to the pancreas not working properly? Many years ago I had much
difficulty digesting food but not the blood sugar prob. Was told to take a supplement called "Pancreas" After some time my
pancreas began to function normally and I no longer needed the sup.
Could this be tried for JD Marx.... ? sense the pancreas is supposed to help with blood sugars.

Tried to give him the oatmeal, he refused but will try again today and offer at various times.

InFo below for those who do not know about the pancreas :

Endocrine Function:
The endocrine component of the pancreas consists of islet cells (islets of Langerhans) that create and release important hormones directly into the bloodstream. Two of the main pancreatic hormones are insulin, which acts to lower blood sugar, and glucagon, which acts to raise blood sugar. Maintaining proper blood sugar levels is crucial to the functioning of key organs including the brain, liver, and kidneys.

TubeDriver

08-15-2018, 12:38 PM

If you can find the active ingredients, I can research if they are safe for squirrels. It looks like most pancreatic supplements are digestive enzymes that aid in digestion. The pancreas is very import since it produces insulin and also the enzymes needed for the intestine to break down food.

So yesterday JD's Keytones were high in the morning but not as high as the day before. Both yesterday and the day before the
afternoon readings were 'normal'.

I could not get a reading today until 9:50am - after he had eaten quite a bit of food - Keytones were normal. I was told by
some one who had a squ with the same problem {years ago } that JD must eat to lower the keytones.

Maybe it is why after fasting from 12 or 1 pm till morning his keytones are so high? ? Don't know for sure nor why for
several days it stayed as high as the reading could take. Just know their being high is very dangerous.

Weight today is 704 grms.

Now to consider the possible diabetes. Isn't that connected to the pancreas not working properly? Many years ago I had much
difficulty digesting food but not the blood sugar prob. Was told to take a supplement called "Pancreas" After some time my
pancreas began to function normally and I no longer needed the sup.
Could this be tried for JD Marx.... ? sense the pancreas is supposed to help with blood sugars.

Tried to give him the oatmeal, he refused but will try again today and offer at various times.

InFo below for those who do not know about the pancreas :

Endocrine Function:
The endocrine component of the pancreas consists of islet cells (islets of Langerhans) that create and release important hormones directly into the bloodstream. Two of the main pancreatic hormones are insulin, which acts to lower blood sugar, and glucagon, which acts to raise blood sugar. Maintaining proper blood sugar levels is crucial to the functioning of key organs including the brain, liver, and kidneys.

RamaMama

08-15-2018, 09:03 PM

RamaMama

08-15-2018, 09:42 PM

Diggie's Friend

08-15-2018, 10:37 PM

Please read this post and the two posts that follow it.

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?57666-Kidney-Disease-Info-Data-and-potential-treatments&p=1268056#post1268056

If you include, 'table salt' in the diet presently, even a tiny bit of it, remove it from the diet as this will lend support to his kidney function,

instead of kidney stone formation, more common in older rodents.

Instead include iodine from food sources like the yolks of chicken eggs, and food grade chia oil.

Feeding fruits and vegetables that contains higher amounts of Potassium Citrate affords support to older kidneys.

stosh2010

08-16-2018, 03:26 PM

So, it appears that Alfalfa may be naturally high in phosporus..... BUMMER ! BUMMER !

Below is a Nutritional Chart I found for Alfalfa......

PER SERVING OF 100 GRAMS:

Vitamins
K - 30.5 UG
B2 - 0.126 UG
B9 - 36 UG
C - 8.2MG
B1 - 0.076 MG
B3 - 0.481 MG
B6 - 0.034 MG ,
E - 0.02 MG

Minerals
ZINC - 0.52 MG
PHOSPHORUS - 70 MG
MAGNESIUM - 27 MG
IRON - O.96 MG
CALCIUM - 32 MG
POTASSIUM 79 MG

OTHER
PROTEIN 3.99 GRAMS
CARBS - 2.1 G
FAT - 0.69 G
FIBER - 1.9 G

Here is the label from some Shakleee Alfalfa tablets that we have (they are old).
The tablets are very small ---and the info is for a serving of 10 tablets (not just one).
__________________________________________________ _____________________
ANY INPUT of the benefits or dangers of ALFALFA arer welcomed.

303971303972

Diggie's Friend

08-16-2018, 08:42 PM

4Skwerlz wrote: Alfalfa is avoided because it's super high in phytoestrogens, which can cause tumors in rats.

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?18511-Corn-Alfalfa&p=427789#post427789

RamaMama

08-16-2018, 08:57 PM

Came across this information today.
See Below.

Some alkaline foods include herbs, vegetables, millet, fruits, and sprouts. Citrus fruits may be acidic during digestion but cause alkaline urine.

"...... other items that may cause high pH in urine include potassium, magnesium, iron, calcium and other mineral supplements; antibiotics; hard water; and antacids.
Medicines: High pH in urine may also occur due to use of medications such as:
Drugs containing potassium citrate

Not taking into account the high sugar in JD's urine, which I AM very concerned about, I have to wonder IF the extra Magnesium he gets every day twice a day could be hampering the PH to some extent or messing up his kidneys. Also our water has so much mineral in it that evenafter using a 'filter' the water after boiling one cup to make tea leaves white powder on our pots. Run your finger across it and your finger is covered with white powder.

I continue to read and search for info.
Too bad about the alfalfa. Thanks for letting me know Diggies Friend and 4Skwerlz.
What a BUMMER !

So far, from what I've read, it seems that almost everything in the CR diet is geared towards making the body alkaline..... maybe I should start feeding
JD more chicken and cheese and yogurt. Geeze.

Diggie's Friend

08-16-2018, 09:50 PM

That's correct, many sources that are actually acidic promote alkaline pH, like lemons for example, that are a good source of potassium citrate. Other sources less source though are as well, and tend to be a bit lower in their effect upon the urine pH.

What hikes the pH up is these same sources that are high in Potassium citrate. Animal food sources can be high in potassium, also but they are higher in phosphorus. By including both alkaline and acidic sources, and providing sufficient calcium by measure to the higher phosphorus foods that that they lie within a 2:1 to 3:1 (Ca:P) ratio, health can be optimally supported by the diet.

Since the dietary needs of squirrels change from what they require as juveniles to support their growth to supporting maintenance for the adults. With this change they require less calories; yet in lowering grains in order to keep the pH in a healthy range, greens need to be lowered also to support a mean urine pH. Again you will see spikes in the pH from natural sources like tree bark, but also coconut water. Limiting these sources in an adult diet, yet not necessarily eliminating this one or that is needful. Simply when you reduce calories from grain sources (nuts and seeds) greens, and branches etc. need to be reduced in amount also to support a healthy range of urine pH in support of both metabolic and urinary tract health.

When magnesium is too high the body compensates for too much by this means. This is the same for Potassium, save when kidney function is impaired. Then including both potassium and magnesium is still needful, just in smaller amounts of the sources that are higher in them.

It is most likely potassium is causing the spikes in urine pH and ketones, save a source like Tums is included as a supplement source for calcium. For though for MBD treatment for short term still another source is found, this source is not good to rely upon in the diet for it is more alkalizing than Calcium Carbonate, and the Calcium Citrate forms.

Parasitical (worm) infections commonly are found in wild neo-tropical regions. One I read about recently I learned impacts the liver. It is found in the SE US and in many parts of the World. With issues like this they can effect the rest of the body.

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?59994-Liver-diseaseL-Not-from-what-is-in-the-food-but-what-may-be-on-the-food&p=1259386#post1259386

Not sure why the pdf isn't what it is says it is supposed to be. I'll see if another copy of it can be found and share it here so you can read about what this parasite does.

Please know this is not a matter of jumping to this conclusion, just a matter of being aware that this is out there.

Again this is an area for a Veterinarian to exam a squirrel for, especially when there is presently no confirmed explanation for the rise in ketones of just this one squirrel.

Diggie's Friend

08-16-2018, 10:54 PM

RamaMama

08-17-2018, 10:49 AM

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?59994-Liver-diseaseL-Not-from-what-is-in-the-food-but-what-may-be-on-the-food&p=1272567#post1272567

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s00436-013-3692-9.pdf

Calodium Hepatica was also found in Costa Rica in Lowland Paca rodent.

Again this doesn't mean I think this is the cause of having high ketones, yet if the liver function is impacted so is the rest of the body.

I see that the only listing for CR is the paca, not the tree squs. I could possibly have JD tested but could not see any thing written about how to "test" for this parasite except after death...... did I miss something? ? .

The squirrels here eat the almendra leaves which kill a multitude of worms/parasites so that is a plus for us at least.

I am working on JD's diet..... no more romaine or bib lettuce everyday, he is getting culantro but will see how that goes. Some
fruits very high in sugar he is no longer allowed to have, maybe one day a week IF ..... IF I can be sure ALL his readings are fairly
NORMAL for an extended time.
I will also keep testing as best I can through out the day for at the very least several days and see what or IF any changes
come. Will maybe stop.... wait a week or so, then start testing again. Will have to play every thing by ear and see how it goes.

This morning before he ate I was able to test very fresh pee...... both the ph and Keys were normal. Still can't test for sugar...
YET !, but going to work on that as well.

Diggie's Friend

08-17-2018, 04:37 PM

I had the same problem with the pH when giving a small measure of raw lettuce daily. With blanching (1 min. boiling for lettuces), one small portion of leafy greens were able to be included without tipping the pH up too high. Since blanching also kills parasites and bacteria on the leaves, and makes them more digestible, which supports calcium acquirement, and inhibits calcium loss. For example: Kale frozen-boiled is noted online as providing a bit more calcium than raw does.

Keeping a record when testing foods one at a time to see what each does to the pH, a menu planner can be composed to make it easier for you in the long run to support a diet that promotes a health mean urine pH.

RamaMama

08-17-2018, 04:55 PM

I gave 'greens' because I thought they had really good vitamins and mins for their health..... is it worth it to blanch them to give to JD, health wise I mean, or should I just skip it for the most part and offer maybe once or twice a week?

Diggie's Friend

08-17-2018, 06:22 PM

For reason that this study has found tree squirrels being infected in CR doesn't mean that some haven't been. In the US Fox squirrels and prairie dogs were amongst numerous other mammals found to be infected with Calodium Hepatica. This nematode though is just one that is present in the environment of RC, for there are others also, that is other parasites that could possibly impact the liver, or some other organ. Again, I don't know; it is an area to consult a vet about as a possible cause of the elevation of the ketones, that is possible to promote from other than the diet.

Blanching does little to nutrient content, save to lower vitamin C a bit. As for boiling denser vegetables, though some nutrients are lowered, when it comes to calcium it makes it far more available to the body by reducing oxalic acid that would otherwise in the raw vegetables not be available at they are in boiled vegetables. Again mostly vitamin C. is reduced from boiling, with other nutrients are increased by measure.

RamaMama

08-17-2018, 07:03 PM

Three tests done today.... Keytones and PH were normal every time. Will continue to monitor and not offering"greens" right
now with the exception of cilantro. or culantro which is stronger, but I will have to think on it and keep watch on what happens.
They all love cilantro and usually get it every morning..... and they occasionally get culantro. It makes a great tea or drink.
Luna loves it when I make it. I don't think I've tried giving it that way to JD. Maybe it would be a good idea, at least then
it would be boiled.

We have ordered more 'test strips'. Will see if and when they finally arrive.

RamaMama

08-19-2018, 11:24 AM

The last opportunities to test JD's pee was yesterday at 6am ph 6.5 and keys norm.... at 10 am his ph was once again super Alkaline.

There has been no opportunity to test since as he keeps peeing in places I can't test or I didn't know how long it sat before I found it. The wax paper on the bottom of his cage would work IF he would STOP peeing down his branch.

Will continue to try to get better tests.

RamaMama

08-19-2018, 11:43 AM

There will be no more testing of Keytones until the new "strips" arrive - - due to ship out around Aug 27.

No clue HOW LONG it may take for them to arrive. Just have to hope for the best.

:Love_Icon . :tap . :imp

RamaMama

08-19-2018, 12:42 PM

The last opportunities to test JD's pee was yesterday at 6am ph 6.5 and keys norm.... at 10 am his ph was once again super Alkaline.

Will continue to try to get better tests.

Went back and read Diggie's Friend Post #63. So, calming down and will remember from this point
onward that one "spike" is not a true reading. Thanks. :grin3

I can tell the sugar in his urine is still very HIGH........ even without any more taste tests. All I have to
do is let it dry..... so I am still very very concerned on that note. I am endeavoring to get him to eat more
HHB's, which he has only recently shown any interest in munching on. I offer a quarter or a half several times
a day..... I just can't leave them laying around in his cage.

Diggie's Friend

08-19-2018, 03:01 PM

Yes, a spike in urine pH from greens, even boiled ones, is normal, and fine to include with the readings to determine the mean urine pH.

For other than freshly deposited urine the samples will have cooled some, which causes bacteria to increase that in turn causes the pH to rise. For this reason those readings shouldn't be included in determining mean urine pH.

A friend with a squirrel told me that they stimulated the squirrel to pee just as is done with babies. Somehow she is able to collect it in a small cup. A cool wet Cue-tip may be the best way to get fresh samples.

You may want to look at Toddy's thread; her squirrel had high sugar levels in the urine, but she changed the diet so that they reduced.

RamaMama

08-23-2018, 07:15 PM

Quick update which isn't much. Haven't had much opportunity to test JD's urine ph.... maybe once a day. He either
goes where I can't test or I see his pee 'later' and do not know how long it has been sitting.

Have done maybe one test per day at different times.... every time, so far it has been about the same 8.0. Does not
matter if I give him a little greens in the morning or not........ still the same reading.

All else still about the same.
At a loss here. Honestly do not know what more to do. I am trying to get him to eat a bit more HHB's, but they are made with flour
which will turn to glucose when digested so.......... it seems a no win situation.... :tap

Guess it will take some time to receive the test strips. Just have to keep on keepin' on here.
Going to keep checking various sups used for Pancreas.... passing up ALL that have anything "bovine"/
DARN !

RamaMama

08-24-2018, 11:17 AM

I am starting JD Marx on Virgin Coconut Oil today. It is a 'Super Food', as some of you know, and is supposed to help
balance blood sugar in diabetics. I will start him on a little less than 1/4 of a tsp once a day for about 5 to 7
days then increase to twice a day. See what comes. The ordered test strips for a broad area of problems may
soon be on their way and once we receive them, hoping here, will see how he is doing and adjust as necessary.
Need to try something
If the all natural way does not work for him then I may have to go the sups
route as long as all the ingredients are OK for rodents. Still reading when I have a little F R E E TIME ! !

Diggie's Friend

08-24-2018, 01:52 PM

In regards to mean urine pH, you have done well to support the target. In adding new sources first consider what any new sources will do to the balance. You would be surprised at how much each one without another to counter balance it effects the mean urine pH. Best to have the strip in your hand before you add more sources, so you can adjust the measure of each accordingly.

With each natural source that these squirrels rely upon in the wild the goal is either to include that source, or supply a surrogate source to stand in its place that is easier and more reliable to supply, all the time keeping in mind if the source is acid or alkaline promoting. Those that are alkaline promoting have more impact by measure as they contain high potassium.

Virgin coconut oil indeed a good source, high in Omega 6 fatty acids. As a fat source in the diet if he is skinny it will help to fatten him up.

In balancing the diet when Omega 6 source is added an Omega 3 source would need to also be added at twice as much. source. Chia oil is such a source.

If you don't have access to this source I wouldn't go higher with the Coconut oil.

RamaMama

04-10-2019, 05:58 PM

I am having little to no luck in helping JD Marx improve his health....... so much sugar in
his urine it continues to dry as a sticky goo. I know he does NOT feel well.

https://www.amazon.com/PetAlive-Pancreas-Booster-Capsules-60-Count/dp/B002WC8JMU/ref=asc_df_B002WC8JMU/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540679137&psc=1

TubeDriver

04-10-2019, 06:02 PM

So does this mean that JD is diabetic? :(

I am having little to no luck in helping JD Marx improve his health....... so much sugar in
his urine it continues to dry as a sticky goo. I know he does NOT feel well.

https://www.amazon.com/PetAlive-Pancreas-Booster-Capsules-60-Count/dp/B002WC8JMU/ref=asc_df_B002WC8JMU/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540679137&psc=1

Diggie's Friend

04-10-2019, 09:50 PM

You need Pycnogenol for your squirrels; next time Stosh travels to the US you have got to load up on this source, as another squirrel showing signs of high keytones was brought back to normal. Be aware, this isn't inexpensive, yet for older male squirrels with lowered kidney function, it is a source that shouldn't be passed on.

Source with the least additives:

https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Origins-Pycnogenol-Natures-Antioxidant/dp/B00142E92I

You also need to keep on hand at all times, having issues of fungus with the climate, Milk Thistle seed extract:

https://www.oregonswildharvest.com/capsules-milk-thistle-organic

Please read through these files.

https://www.2ndchance.info/test.php?page=ratkidney

http://ratguide.com/health/urinary_renal/chronic_progressive_nephropathy.php

(see Kidney disease thread in Specific Ailments - under (OTHER)

As you scroll down you will see recommendations to support old rodents with CRD (Chronic Kidney Disease).

The seed oils are supportive as they are a fat not a protein source.

Omega 6 (linoleic fatty acid) food grade only - key source for male squirrels pumpkin seed oil urogenital track.

Omega 3 (Linolenic fatty acid) key source to support a healthy balance Chia oil (food grade only!)

In late stage kidney disease Keto acidosis occurs, which promotes diabetes, alkaline urine, UTIs, bacterial infections.

As animal research has confirmed, and veterinarian science directs - lower phosphorus by lowering protein in the diet.

Raise calcium adding Calcium citrate, which works best for older kidneys.

If C. Citrate is not available use calcium carbonate.

Feed only boiled greens to reduce their potassium content.

Unlike in early kidney function reduction, potassium citrate is supportive, yet when late stage is reached the kidneys can no longer handle as much potassium, magnesium or phosphorus. This is where calcium drops.

This means most fruits cannot be fed, with some key exceptions of sources low in potassium.

Acai powder is low in potassium, check to see what the source you have notes for potassium is comparable. In reducing this source for example, just over a third of a gram of potassium is added to the diet, making this source very low in potassium, and usable in the diet as it is anti inflammatory.

Greens need to be cooked to reduce their potassium level.

Use a small amount of rice instead of oats, or mix them with more rice than oatmeal at least 3 to 1

If you don't do so already, add the Acai 1/64 Tsp. to the rice to see if he will eat it that way.

https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Organic-Ingredients-Freeze-Dried-GLUTEN-FREE/dp/B07CT6P3TS/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=acai%2Bpowder&qid=1554940799&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&th=1

Calcium citrate is the best calcium form to use for this condition. You can use Henry's vitamin Mineral mix, but also include this source also.

I will need to estimate how much to add, so I will need to get back to you if you get this source.
Switch from feeding mostly oatmeal to feeding mostly cooked rice, as it is lower in phosphorus which is the easiest on the kidneys.

https://www.kidneybuzz.com/the-best-cereals-that-chronic-kidney-disease-patients-should-choose-to-eat/2013/8/25/the-best-cereals-that-chronic-kidney-disease-patients-should-choose-to-eat

RamaMama

04-11-2019, 03:11 AM

I have liquid Pycnogenol I brought back from FL ........ I have tried adding one drop in the mornings to various items of food..
BUT......... after the first day / first dose .... no matter what I put it in they refuse to eat the item... ? ? ?
I have not tasted it so don't know if it has an odd taste or smell....... I am at a loss at to how to get them
to take it. I can't afford to waste it... not just the $$$ but I won't be able to get any more until Stosh, maybe,
goes to NY in Oct.

I had cooked brown rice esp for JD MARX and tried to add finely chopped raw carrot which is supposed to be
ok for diabetics....... he only ate a tiny bit and then refused the rest. What can I possibly add to the rice to
make it tasty for him? I could mash the carrots up if they were cooked but cooking them raises the glucos level
very high.

I will be checking more of what you wrote DF tomorrow......
JD is a very unhappy little fellow and eating very little....... refusing most foods.
I have very little HHB left so it won't be long and I won't even be able to offer that......
as it is each of them only gets 1 a day.

Oh yeah, your PM box is full DF.

Diggie's Friend

04-11-2019, 01:06 PM

I'm so sorry to hear your boy is struggling.

PYC has worked to increase the appetite and energy level of older squirrels with metabolic imbalances, as it was found to do in rats.

With the N.A. squirrel the smell hasn't been an issue, but best to add it to a source to mute it down.

I would add a drop of coconut oil with it to give it that tropical aroma and flavor that your squirrels are familiar with and accept.

Diggie's Friend

04-11-2019, 01:31 PM

With Acai (substituted for Bilberry in the diet) a source of high source of anti-oxidant support, since the Bilberry is now being paired with PYC, I would pair the 1/64 Tsp. measure of Acai powder with the PYC adding them to plain yogurt with a drop or two of the raw coconut oil to mellow out the taste and aroma.

"a number of additional studies have been published about the health benefits of both bilberry and pine bark extract. Of particular interest is their influence on liver condition and function."

Diggie's Friend

04-11-2019, 01:57 PM

RamaMama

04-11-2019, 04:01 PM

Raising good fats like the Pumpkin and Chia organic seed oils and lowering phosphorus and protein sources are what is needed for lowered kidney function. I wrote you prior in reply about your concern for his weight to add egg; I need to amend that to 1/8 Tsp. of soft boiled (not liquid) egg yolk only; this in view of his lowered kidney function, as protein and phosphorus need to be lowered. This doesn't mean to not feed sources that contain protein or phosphorus, just lower amounts, while not including protein sources on the higher side, like egg white, and protein isolates. If then those protein sources in feed need to be included, to lower the amount of the source included in the diet daily, as otherwise it is too hard on the kidneys.

Oops...... gave him boiled egg with some yoke and white just before I read this.... won't do it again.

To any one out there who has or is dealing with this same prob...... could a LIST of the FOODS that
CAN BE SAFELY EATEN...... be added. I am at a loss.... the little bits that are mentioned JD can not
live on.
Their biggest part of diet IS or has been fruits of all types esp CR fruits as well as wild fruits we pick off
the trees..... seeds, bark, lichens, leaves of all types...... some flowers esp hibiscus but only once or
twice a month.....
Since I NEED to cut out pretty much ALL fruits for JD I simply am stumped at what I CAN GIVE HIM DAILY.
I looked up diets for Diabetics on line but most listed are either items we can't get or he won't eat.
I have tried giving him brown rice several times...... he will pick at it but not really EAT it much...... not
unless I add some thing he really likes.

I know cooking some veggies is best, or at least 'blanching' them slightly.... what about string beans, cauliflower,
broccoli, they usually become more "gassey" after being heated or cooked... they love raw cauliflower but I have stopped giving it to them as I think I recall it is NOT good for them.
raw tomato, I know the riper the better, esp for Luna.... what veggies can they eat raw or blanched.
How often.
How often can I give any/all of them cooked brown rice.... whether they eat it or not, want to TRY

DF - I read the info you provided...... some cereals we can't get here.... or they are sooo darn expensive
we don't buy, most are 4 to $5.00 per box, but I was told {by some one who is SUPPOSED to be in the know that
Honey Nut Cheerios {we get Honey Cheerios- not sure if it is exactly the same} are great source for balanced Vit and Min.... but now with the the sugar prob I am wondering if that is a really bad choice. I soak in water so cerials puff up...... for Rama and Luna who can't "bite" normally.

WHY do they have to LOVE and WANT all the stuff they should not have ! ! DANG ! ! ! ! :tap:tap:tap:tap

I was up all night last night stressing about them and what to do and steps to take so JD ----- as well as the
others don't die or suffer because I was ignorant to what was really healthy.

I wish I was RICH so I could pay for a squirrel lover to come visit us and bring all that we need for the health
of our babies...... so tied here. I get soooo angry due to lack of access to products and lack of understanding and knowledge.
:dono:shakehead

RamaMama

04-11-2019, 04:04 PM

Sorry ! ! My PM Box is now "OPEN" ! !
:grin3

Diggie's Friend

04-11-2019, 05:10 PM

There is no reason he can"t have diabetic friend fruits

Fruits:

•Good alternatives: Berries, grapes, cherries, apples, plums

•Avoid: Cantaloupe, mangos, kiwi, oranges, pomegranate

Vegetables

•Good Alternatives: Boiled: Cauliflower, Asparagus tips, Turnips, Turnip greens,
Blanched: Kale, Chicory leaf, Arugula, lettuces, Bok Choy
Baked: winter squashes

•Avoid: Okra, spinaches, Chard, potatoes, artichokes, tomatoes, Sweet potatoes

High Protein Sources

•Good Alternative: eggs, non-denatured organic whey protein by Promix

Avoid: Whole wheat, wheat protein (wheat gluten), wheat protein isolate, wheat bran, too many nuts

http://www.kidney-treatment.org/creatinine/112.html

I looked up egg whites and I found it is a good source for diabetics and those with kidney disease

Diggie's Friend

04-11-2019, 06:08 PM

There is much debate on Egg white and kidney failure. For end stage is isn't recommended, yet there is new data on egg whites indicating for progressive chronic kidney failure is a better choice over plant proteins.

With egg white it is recommend to feed a 3:1 ratio of white to yolk. The yolk is high in phosphorus, yet without a little egg yolk included, the white will block biotin (vitamin B7) that is required for cell function. (1/8 Tsp.) AM and PM daily.

Whey protein, as I wrote above, is also considered a good source of protein for those with kidney disease, if it is organic, and not denatured (not processed with chemical enzymes, or heat), but non GMO, organic produced using cold filtering precessing not chemicals like hexane, which is considered better than plant proteins for kidney failure patients.

Promix Whey Protein Isolate is such a source that is low in phosphorus, 24.99 1 lb.

https://promixnutrition.com/products/unflavored-whey-protein-isolate?variant=8116728070239

The problem with protein is that it causes loss of calcium into the urine. Yet even with this issue, the form of calcium matters, for calcium citrate inhibits stone forming, whereas Calcium carbonate promotes it.

I hope this helps.

WARNING: The photos on this page include that of a necropsy of a rat with end stage kidney failure, with photos of the organs. The kidneys were replete with kidney stone crystal deposits. Also be aware that the rat prior to being euthanized was photographed to show the whitening of the skin that occurs in end stage kidney failure.

With the kidneys no longer able to filter sufficiently kidney stones also occur in end stage kidney failure.

This is why using calcium citrate is so key to supporting older squirrels with declining kidney function.

Again if this photographic material would bother, then don't look at this page: ttp://ratguide.com/health/figures/chronic_progressive_nephropathy_figure_1.php