Elderly squirrel issues and possible infection

[WhistlingPete]

Petey is a 5 year old ground squirrel. His back legs aren't working very great and he has started having spasms sometimes. He's eating fine and still mostly does okay climbing the sides of his cage.

He isn't cleaning himself very well though, especially around his squirrel boy parts. I've been trying to clean him with water and a washcloth or qtips when he's asleep enough to let me. This morning I noticed his penis is inflamed and looks like it make have a sore on the side of it. I used a syringe with water to rinse it off since touching it kept getting a reaction from him.

Any suggestions on how to help that heal?

And also, just in general.... End of life advice is appreciated...when...how do I know... Etc. I know usually if they're still eating and drinking that's the most important sign. But I know he's getting exceptionally old for a male ground squirrel.

Thanks!
Jennifer

[CritterMom]

I was thinking that the other day when you resurfaced here and it hurt my heart.

For his sore, and for cleaning him up, I would buy a bottle of Betadyne, or 10% povidone iodine as it is called generically. By all means get the cheaper generic. It will be with the wound care at any drug store. It is the red stuff that looks like blood. Dilute it for use - 20 drops in 1/4 cup water. It will become the color of iced tea - if you want to make up smaller amounts, that color is what you are looking for - and it is very forgiving. Just dab it on his sore 3 or 4 times a day - don't cover it or anything. It doesn't hurt or itch and it dries like water with no residue to make him want to fuss with the area. It is antibacterial and antifungal and it cures almost anything on the skin. It works for you, too, BTW!

I would also use a bit more diluted mixture of it to wipe him down after you clean him.

I would increase his calcium intake. How much does he get a day? The back end paralysis and spasms SCREAMS MBD. I would start getting calcium into him pronto. How much does he weigh? He is old but it is also possible that what you are seeing is something fixable...

[WhistlingPete]

I was thinking that the other day when you resurfaced here and it hurt my heart.

For his sore, and for cleaning him up, I would buy a bottle of Betadyne, or 10% povidone iodine as it is called generically. By all means get the cheaper generic. It will be with the wound care at any drug store. It is the red stuff that looks like blood. Dilute it for use - 20 drops in 1/4 cup water. It will become the color of iced tea - if you want to make up smaller amounts, that color is what you are looking for - and it is very forgiving. Just dab it on his sore 3 or 4 times a day - don't cover it or anything. It doesn't hurt or itch and it dries like water with no residue to make him want to fuss with the area. It is antibacterial and antifungal and it cures almost anything on the skin. It works for you, too, BTW!

I would also use a bit more diluted mixture of it to wipe him down after you clean him.

I would increase his calcium intake. How much does he get a day? The back end paralysis and spasms SCREAMS MBD. I would start getting calcium into him pronto. How much does he weigh? He is old but it is also possible that what you are seeing is something fixable...

Thanks for all this. I thought it was MBD and I still think it might have been when he came out of hibernation this year since it was so much longer. Ive been giving him a little extra calcium and I talked to Leigh about it too. He's eating two Henry's blocks a day plus a handful of dandelions and munching on rat blocks so if he was deficient it may just not be cleared up yet.

I haven't weighed him in a bit and he's gained a lot in the last month since he woke up. I'd guess he's around 220g.

[Diggie's Friend]

Question, has he been neutered, and if so was it before reaching sexual maturity at about a year of age?

Paralysis can be from osteoporosis due to altering. For males it is an issue if they are neutered before reaching sexual maturity.

For females it puts them into menopause. Our girl developed degenerative disc disease just 2 years after the procedure which resulted in back spasms.

We treated it with methocarbomal twice daily. .

[WhistlingPete]

Question, has he been neutered, and if so was it before reaching sexual maturity at about a year of age?

Paralysis can be from osteoporosis due to altering. For males it is an issue if they are neutered before reaching sexual maturity.

For females it puts them into menopause. Our girl developed degenerative disc disease just 2 years after the procedure which resulted in back spasms.

We treated it with methocarbomal twice daily. .

Petey is a Piute ground squirrel. The oldest females from his type are around 6-7 years and he's one of the oldest known males. I've been working with the biologist who studies them.
And he was not neutered.

[Diggie's Friend]

WhistlingPete wrote:

Petey is a Piute ground squirrel. The oldest females from his type are around 6-7 years and he's one of the oldest known males. I've been working with the biologist who studies them.
And he was not neutered.

Glad to hear that he is intact. It makes sense about him being elderly as this species is smaller than the Rock and Calif. ground squirrel. I would love to see photos of your boy.

There is a nerve junction degeneration that is common in elderly rodents, this could be the cause of the paralysis. If he has degenerative disc disease it won't repair it.

As for treatment for MBD, start with whatever form of calcium you can get today, as prompt treatment is needful.

[Diggie's Friend]

When osteoarthritis occurs in the lumbar spine (spondylosis), degeneration of the intervertebral discs, and narrowing of the spinal canal (spinal stenosis) result. This degeneration and narrowing can cause nerve root (radiculopathy) and spinal cord compression resulting in weakness of the hind limbs progressing to hind limb paralysis. This condition is seen mainly in male rats.

For more info read: http://ratguide.com/health/musculoskeletal/degenerative_osteoarthritis.php

[WhistlingPete]

For more info read: http://ratguide.com/health/musculoskeletal/degenerative_osteoarthritis.php


Thanks for this. It sounds exactly like what's happening. As far as calcium goes, I've already been giving it to him for a few weeks and he eats 2 Henry's blocks a day and dandelions. And nothing that's "bad" for him. I'm not sure there's much else to do nutrition wise.

[SophieSquirrel]

The Piute Ground squirrel (Urocitellus mollis) is similar to the CGS (Spermophilus beecheyi) and the 13 lined GS (Spermophilus tridecemlineatus) in taxonomy. I think when we chatted you said he won't eat timothy hay that is normally a Prairie Dog base diet and I believe the Piute is more of a seed eater. Contact Dr. Gena Seaburg kato@spro.net or 425-870-1729 and ask her about the correct Piute diet to prevent MBD. She is THE go-to expert on Prairie Dog nutrition and consults with zoos, vets and PD owners around the world. I learned everything I know about Prairie Dogs from Gena and Lynda Watson. She would also know about Piute's. Ask your biologist friend if he/she knows Gena.

You don't feed him any dried corn, right? That will damage his gall bladder.

[TubeDriver]

Petey is such an interesting and cool little fellow. I almost hope it is MBD because prompt treatment can reverse the symptoms and cure the syndrome.

:grouphug Petey :grouphug

[WhistlingPete]

The Piute Ground squirrel (Urocitellus mollis) is similar to the CGS (Spermophilus beecheyi) and the 13 lined GS (Spermophilus tridecemlineatus) in taxonomy. I think when we chatted you said he won't eat timothy hay that is normally a Prairie Dog base diet and I believe the Piute is more of a seed eater. Contact Dr. Gena Seaburg kato@spro.net or 425-870-1729 and ask her about the correct Piute diet to prevent MBD. She is THE go-to expert on Prairie Dog nutrition and consults with zoos, vets and PD owners around the world. I learned everything I know about Prairie Dogs from Gena and Lynda Watson. She would also know about Piute's. Ask your biologist friend if he/she knows Gena.

You don't feed him any dried corn, right? That will damage his gall bladder.

Thanks I'll contact her also. And nope to dried corn!

[Diggie's Friend]

Do you feed grubworms?

Camilles Vita-Mealies offers both live and dried mealworms raised on an vitamin-nutrient enriched diet.

Here is the link. https://vita-mealie.weebly.com/

Another plant belonging to the same group as Dandelions is Chicory; both the leaf and the root contain a good array of nutrients.

Baby chicory leaves are low in calcium robbing oxalates, which makes the diet more supportive calcium wise. Arugula, Escarole are also good sources.

Seeds is the hard part as most are high in phosphorus to calcium, still for the diet to be supported in a healthy ratio there needs to be sources higher in phosphorus,

so don't be afraid to offer him Oats for example. If he will eat them hydrated that is easier on his digestion. Organic oat groats are available online from Bob's Red Mill.

With this source I have soaked them over night to saturate them. If you don't soak them chopping them up is recommended as they swell up in the body.

Then again with ground squirrels this may not be needful. I would inquire of Gena Seaberg on that account.

[Diggie's Friend]

https://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Groats-Delicious/dp/B005DHYK4C/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1526498749&sr=8-1&keywords=bobs%2Bred%2Bmill%2Boat%2Bgroats&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fashioned-32-ounce/dp/B004VLVB5C?th=1

Edit: 'If you don't soak the groats then chop the grains into a few pieces, as they swell up in the body.

Then again with ground squirrels this may not be needful. or perhaps feeding the roll oats to feed raw may be a better choice?'

[WhistlingPete]

Yesterday and today petey seems to be doing better in terms of energy and running in his wheel. Tonight when I checked on him though he had a little blood on him. He was cleaning himself which he hasnt done well in awhile but his penis was bleeding a little. I don't think it was bloody urine but I can't be sure. I rinsed off the blood from the penis and disinfected it but i couldn't see a source for the blood. Any thoughts?

[Mel1959]

He could have a UTI. Do you have any antibiotics? If so which ones?

[WhistlingPete]

He could have a UTI. Do you have any antibiotics? If so which ones?

I don't have any antibiotics. I just posted on fb asking if anyone has any cipro lying around.

[WhistlingPete]

I realized I do have an antibiotic cream that was for a bunny. It is Silvadene.

[WhistlingPete]

I've been applying the silvadene which seems like it is helping. I removed his digging dirt and his litter box so he wouldn't be getting those stuck in that area. I think that's all helping. He seems cleaner at least but i worry since that's his main exercise

Yesterday he fell a couple times while climbing. Everything is well padded now but still. I tried blocking off part of the cage wall so he had to pass through levels but he would push through my barrier enough to get stuck which was much worse than falling.

This morning as i cuddled him he yawned and i realized he only has one top tooth now. When did that happen, Petey?! I tried to get some pictures....do i do anything about that? Petey dentures?

301733301736301734301735

[TubeDriver]

Check the length of his bottom teeth. Without a top tooth to help wear the bottom tooth, the remaining tooth can overgrow. If they become overgrown, he will need regular trimmings. Perhaps the missing tooth will grow back in?

I think You might try some different things in his diet? I am not at all familiar with ground squirrels so take this with a grain of salt. Some people have reported good results with Harlan Teklid blocks. Henries blocks are great and I would continue to give them to him but the HK can be had with higher protein formulations (they have a 14% thru 19% protein versions) and are a complete dietary package. Maybe try 1 HK and 1 Henries per day in addition to whatever else you normally provide? I would bump up Calcium intake too, as we age our bodies process nutrients less effeciently so a diet that was sufficient during our youth may not be sufficient as we enter our twilight years.

The Silvadene cream is very good stuff (not a typical AB but does have AB effects). The trick is to use the absolute minimum to cover the area, a very light film will work.

Seeing little Petey sleeping there and knowing how old he is is really sad. :( They have such short lives compared to us.

You asked about end of life decisions, when is right? Only you will know when the time is right for Petey. He still sounds like he has some good days ahead of him but there will come a time when a gentle, pain free passing over will be the greatest gift you can give him. If you have a vet that will see Petey, you can talk to them to about painless end-of-life options. Breaks my heart a little to even type this, Petey is such a cool, little fellow. :grouphug Petey :grouphug

[WhistlingPete]

I'm still giving him calcium daily alao in case there was some mbd. When he woke up just now and scampered off he didn't use his back legs at all, just drug them behind him. He has started taking his tiny paw and pushing away the calcium like he doesn't want it, where before he was snatching it from me. He still will eat it if I trick him though.

I'm especially worried because I go out of town tomorrow. My husband is here but then im back for 2 days and we both leave for 8. I have loving people who will help however but they won't know like I do.

[TubeDriver]

:( Can you call on them to advise them? Can your sitters handle him?

[TubeDriver]

If he is dragging his hind legs, it will be important to rinse/wipe down his undersides. Urine scald is a really likely otherwise.

[WhistlingPete]

If he is dragging his hind legs, it will be important to rinse/wipe down his undersides. Urine scald is a really likely otherwise.


I hadnt seen him drag like that before... More just awkward walking. In his cage he doesnt have the long runways like when he was running across the living room just now. But yeah, I've been really worried about the urine on him. Not as much because of his movement but because he is going in his sleep and then lying in it. Especially if he is sleeping on his back or side, which is most the time.

[TubeDriver]

Make sure he can pee on his own too. Keep up with the calcium. Any sitters must be comfortable cleaning him up. Timing for this with your trip is the worst but that happens.



I hadnt seen him drag like that before... More just awkward walking. In his cage he doesnt have the long runways like when he was running across the living room just now. But yeah, I've been really worried about the urine on him. Not as much because of his movement but because he is going in his sleep and then lying in it. Especially if he is sleeping on his back or side, which is most the time.

[WhistlingPete]

It really is the worst timing. If it were just a vacation Id cancel. During this Petey journey I got a wild idea to switch careers from being a data researcher and get a master of divinity degree to be a Presbyterian minister. So after 4 years of school and all sorts of exams and approvals, my actual ceremony to make me a minister is back in Idaho on the 10th. I may consider shortening the trip depending on Petey though.

And Petey seems to be peeing fine. When I have him jist sleeping on me without touching him he usually soaks my shirt. Same for whateer bedding he is in. I'm doing a lot more laundry.

[TubeDriver]

Anyone who does not mind getting peed on by a little rodent and who cares about the welfare of the least among us (almost a textbook definition of Petey) will probably make a great minister!:great



It really is the worst timing. If it were just a vacation Id cancel. During this Petey journey I got a wild idea to switch careers from being a data researcher and get a master of divinity degree to be a Presbyterian minister. So after 4 years of school and all sorts of exams and approvals, my actual ceremony to make me a minister is back in Idaho on the 10th. I may consider shortening the trip depending on Petey though.

And Petey seems to be peeing fine. When I have him jist sleeping on me without touching him he usually soaks my shirt. Same for whateer bedding he is in. I'm doing a lot more laundry.

[WhistlingPete]

Anyone who does not mind getting peed on by a little rodent and who cares about the welfare of the least among us (almost a textbook definition of Petey) will probably make a great minister!:great

Haha Thanks!

Here is a video I just took of him. Now he didn't drag his legs but you can see him bounce a little like it is kicking without him knowing. Right before this he had yawned and stretched about 6 times which I rarely see him do so I tried to catch that with no luck. He chattered for a little while before this so I thought he was in pain. But after the video he went exploring a little and then used his wheel instead of just going to sleep.

Here he is... https://youtu.be/i5MfsOL2nw4

[WhistlingPete]

Check the length of his bottom teeth. Without a top tooth to help wear the bottom tooth, the remaining tooth can overgrow. If they become overgrown, he will need regular trimmings. Perhaps the missing tooth will grow back in?
grouphug

On the tooth issue... If he is still eating the really hard rat blocks those should still we wearing down the bottom wouldnt they? When he yawned both bottoms looked to be the same length.

[TubeDriver]

It is hard to watch him like this. :( I remember when he used to move as fast as lightning. He has such a little attitude, like grumpy old man! :grin2

He is using his rear legs to support himself but clearly is compromised. I would just continue with the MBD calcium treatment and maybe try to add some HT blocks into his diet.



Haha Thanks!

Here is a video I just took of him. Now he didn't drag his legs but you can see him bounce a little like it is kicking without him knowing. Right before this he had yawned and stretched about 6 times which I rarely see him do so I tried to catch that with no luck. He chattered for a little while before this so I thought he was in pain. But after the video he went exploring a little and then used his wheel instead of just going to sleep.

Here he is... https://youtu.be/i5MfsOL2nw4

[TubeDriver]

Blocks by themselves will not wear down the teeth. Is there anything harder that he will chew on like wood?

The fact that they are the same length is good but keep an eye out on them. In a grey squirrel, their teeth will grow in 3-4 weeks to the point that they can start puncturing the roof of the mouth and make eating difficult.


On the tooth issue... If he is still eating the really hard rat blocks those should still we wearing down the bottom wouldnt they? When he yawned both bottoms looked to be the same length.

[WhistlingPete]

It is hard to watch him like this. :( I remember when he used to move as fast as lightning. He has such a little attitude, like grumpy old man! :grin2

He is using his rear legs to support himself but clearly is compromised. I would just continue with the MBD calcium treatment and maybe try to add some HT blocks into his diet.

What are HT blocks? Thats not what you mentioned earlier is it? I think I'll ruin and get him some worms too. Not for the teeth but because he likes them and protein.

[WhistlingPete]

And no to chewing harder things. He never has liked any chew blocks or other things I tried. Mostly its the blocks and occasionally cardboard that he has chewed.

[Mel1959]

Have you tried dog marrow bones for his teeth. I have a dog so I buy the bones in the meat department and let my dog eat the marrow out of them. Then I give the bone to my caged squirrel. She loves to know on the bone. It not only wears her teeth down it also provides calcium. Maybe since Petey only has one top tooth he would chew on a cuttle bone. The come in flavors and also provide calcium.

[TubeDriver]

Harlan Teklad 18% or 19% protein blocks.

Harlan Teklad is now called Envigo. You can order some here:

https://www.amazon.com/Envigo-Formerly-Harlan-Teklad-GROWTH/dp/B00N0EPSLO/ref=lp_10067877011_1_2?srs=10067877011&ie=UTF8&qid=1527710112&sr=8-2





What are HT blocks? Thats not what you mentioned earlier is it? I think I'll ruin and get him some worms too. Not for the teeth but because he likes them and protein.

[CritterMom]

Harlan Teklad 18% or 19% protein blocks.

Harlan Teklad is now called Envigo. You can order some here:

https://www.amazon.com/Envigo-Formerly-Harlan-Teklad-GROWTH/dp/B00N0EPSLO/ref=lp_10067877011_1_2?srs=10067877011&ie=UTF8&qid=1527710112&sr=8-2

Dust them with some calcium before you feed them.

[WhistlingPete]

I met with my friends with 9 bunnies to ask them to brainstorm with me how to care for Petey while Im away and what they do. They had a couple suggestions... One was to ask the neighbor to just handle giving him calcium (because im still doing that 4 x day) and they could help with changing bedding, cleaning and food once a day. The other suggestion was to bring him to their house in a smaller cage that he could stay in so they can make sure he is getting calcium and keep better eyes on him. The downside of that is him getting less exercise but that may not be so bad because he wouldn't be climbing and possibly hurting himself.

I wrote out all the subconscious things I do for Petey as I talked through it with my husband and a lot of it is arranging things certain ways to keep things safe in his cage.

Thoughts on having him in a smaller cage that he isnt familiar with for 8 days but that we know he will be with people who care for creatures?

[Mel1959]

I assume one option is to take him to your friends house to care for him, the other is to leave him at home and have someone come in to care for him. How stressed does Petey get when he’s in a new environment? How active is he? Would it be a significant change for him to be in a smaller cage?

Since you know Petey best you need to consider which of these options is the lesser of all evils. If you think he would be stressed to be in a new cage/environment, coupled by being cared for by someone other than you, then you have your answer. You should also consider which option is going to give you the most peace of mind. :grin2

[WhistlingPete]

I assume one option is to take him to your friends house to care for him, the other is to leave him at home and have someone come in to care for him. How stressed does Petey get when he’s in a new environment? How active is he? Would it be a significant change for him to be in a smaller cage?

Since you know Petey best you need to consider which of these options is the lesser of all evils. If you think he would be stressed to be in a new cage/environment, coupled by being cared for by someone other than you, then you have your answer. You should also consider which option is going to give you the most peace of mind. :grin2

If he was normal Petey, I'd leave him at home, fill an extra water and food dish, and not worry if someone came every other day. Or, when I brought him across country for the move, I had him in his bedding box in another container and he seemed mostly okay with that.

The biggest worry for me right now is keeping him clean and continuing the calcium. Right now I'm giving him calcium 4 times a day, trying to be as close to 6 hours apart as I can be. Getting people to come over reliably 4 times a day may be hard to do for 8 days. And then there is cleaning him and changing the bedding that he has soiled.

I think the advice I need may be about the calcium. He is getting 200mg per day, 50 mg each time. I know there isn't a hard and fast rule, but could we switch that to giving him a little more but 3 times a day? or 2? I've noticed a difference when it is longer between times that he gets the calcium, but in those cases I havent given him extra beforehand.

Also, last night he was more active than he's been in awhile. He ran around the living room and investigated me more than he has at all in awhile. His penis is looking much closer to normal (or maybe normal now) in size so I think that issue may be cleared up by the time we leave next week.

[CritterMom]

3 times a day would be fine for the calcium.

Can you set him up now in a cage that is small enough to bring him to your friends - give him a chance to get used to it and to tweak it for a few days before you leave him there?

[WhistlingPete]

Well Petey seems to be pretty stable now. When we move him or give him calcium now he is usually awake just by us opening the cage. (Versus sleeping through me cleaning him and moving him around). He is still eating and drinking well. I do think he probably had an infection or some bug that has cleared up so he isn't as groggy.

I ended up with 5 people willing.to come give him calcium and one friend who fosters bunnies (they have 9 currently) . Between them they will make sure petey gets calcium, food and water and he can stay in his cage instead of being moved around.