MannaPro?

[SophieSquirrel]

I found this new MannaPro product at Tractor Supply. MannaPro is a respected company in the farm industry for Bovine and Equine nutrition. Any thoughts on the ingredient list <below> especially the probiotics compared to Teklad/Mazuri/Oxbow Etc?

Link: https://www.mannapro.com/products/small-animal/complete-mouse-rat-feed

300976

INGREDIENTS:

Wheat middlings, corn, soybean meal, vegetable oil, cane molasses, lignin sulfonate, calcium hydroxide, dried whey, yeast culture, calcium carbonate, salt, dl-methionine, propionic acid (a preservative), l-lysine, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, ferrous carbonate, yucca schidigera extract, manganous oxide, vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, zinc oxide, niacin supplement, copper sulfate, biotin, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, vitamin D3 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, active dry yeast, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation solubles, dried bacillus licheniformis fermentation solubles, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation solubles, dried bacillus amyloliquefaciens fermentation solubles, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation solubles, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product.

Crude Protein Min 18.00%
Crude Fat Min 5.00%
Crude Fiber Max 8.00%
Calcium Min 1.00%
Calcium Max 1.50%
Phosphorus Min 0.50%
Salt Min 0.25%
Salt Max 0.75%
Vitamin A Min 3,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E Min 25 IU/lb

[cava]

I am interested in knowing how those microorganisms hold up to processing and shelf life. Just curious. Any studies known?

[Diggie's Friend]

Aspergillus oryzae, a fungus, contains α-amylase that aids in the digestion of starch (Tricarico et al., 2005).

Some of these probiotic sources are soil based bacteria that have a hard shell so that aren't degraded as they pass through the stomach.


https://www.consumerlab.com/answers/do-probiotics-have-to-be-enterically-coated-to-be-effective/probiotics_enteric_coating/

According to this website:


most Lactobacillus, Bifidobacterium, and Streptococcus species of probiotics (all very common in supplements) do not need enteric coating as they can survive passage through the stomach.

[Diggie's Friend]

As for shelf life of this source, that information, if available, I assume would be noted with the product description.

[island rehabber]

Corn and soybean meal are #'s 2 and 3 on the hit parade; this worries me since I've always heard soy is not good for squirrels and we all know corn is empty carbs. The Cal/Phos ratio seems ok, though. Just my two cents. :dono

[SophieSquirrel]

Corn and soybean meal are #'s 2 and 3 on the hit parade; this worries me since I've always heard soy is not good for squirrels and we all know corn is empty carbs. The Cal/Phos ratio seems ok, though. Just my two cents. :dono

Except for Henry's none of the commercial rat blocks are ideal for squirrels. I just thought I would throw another brand into the fray to see how it compares to Teklad, Mazuri Etc.

Envigo (Teklad) has a program to customize a block but I am sure for a small group like TSB it would still be cost prohibitive: https://www.envigo.com/products-services/teklad/laboratory-animal-diets/custom-research/

In order to be cost effective for rehabbers a non-perishable block needs to be around a dollar a pound. Adding pecans adds to the cost considerably. Squirrels in the wild eat a "base" diet usually consisting of Acorns and during a bumper crop they will eat until full. It's their natural staple in most environments and they have evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with the Oak.

We all know that feeding acorns picked off the ground puts our captives at risk for Aflatoxins. There are quality Acorn products that are suitable for human consumption and I would have no issue feeding a controlled product like this Acorn grind (flour) to my captives:
http://buyacornflour.com/product.php

I think an ideal block would contain the following in a dry, non-perishable and affordable block:

2/3 quality Acorn powder
1/3 finely ground Pecan/Hazlenuts/Almonds in equal quantities
Dehydrated and powdered greens that Diggie's Friend has recommended through extensive research concerning oxalates
Supplemental Calcium, Phosphorus, and Magnesium in the appropriate balance
Additional vitamins and minerals as recommended
Human food grade preservatives (so we don't have to freeze)

Of course the Henry's triangle is paramount to squirrel health and no one block will provide everything a squirrel needs, especially a captive.

Henry's adult blocks contain more expensive human grade ingredients and pecans. I can assure you that Henry's is not making some huge profit on their top quality blocks. We just need to find a way to work with Leigh at Henry's to make a bulk dry block with the above ingredients in a cost effective way. Not saying it will be $35 or so for a 33 Lb bag like Teklad, but around $100 would still be affordable to most.

As it stands now:

A 33 Lb bag of Teklad is roughly $35

33 Lb's of Henry's Adult Blocks comes to 48 11 oz bags or $864

Also add in the priority shipping for individual Henry's bags which has gone through the roof. Also try freezing 33 Lb's of perishable blocks!

Unrefrigerated storage of Teklad blocks:

This practical experience, along with literature support and vitamin testing over time, gives us confidence that these diets continue to support animal health and study integrity out to at least nine months post-manufacture. Please refer to your institution for guidance if you are unsure of local policies.

Recommended storage conditions:

Cool and dry; at or below 70 degrees fahrenheit with humidity ideally below 50%, but up to 65% is acceptable
Clean and free of pests
In original packaging or in a container that prevents continuous exposure to light and minimal exposure to air

[Diggie's Friend]

Definitely pointing in the right direction SophieSquirrel!

Considering almonds that are high in cost, and higher in oxalates, include Styrian hulless pumpkin seeds instead,

which are higher in Magnesium than Almonds (see data), and lower in oxalates than almonds.

That these hulless pumpkin seeds are higher in phosphorus than Calcium is actually a plus, for they can be used as a substitute phosphorus source

in place of inorganic phosphorus (commonly added to block diet sources) that veterinarians note lends to the formation of bladder stones in rodents.

Another trade out would be English Walnuts for Pecans, as they are higher in protein content, and lower in cost than the Pecan, that should lower the cost overall.

I wouldn't forget our American Red squirrel buddies; amongst other sources more suitable for Pine squirrels include hazelnuts,

and Nevada Soft shelled Pinyon pine nuts that have a Ca:P ratio close to that of the Pecan.

[Diggie's Friend]

Styrian pumpkin kernels: 1 oz. (190 mg.) magnesium (see label) free shipping, grown in the USA.

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Pumpkin-Seeds-Grown-Oregon/dp/B01K5X96HY/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1525084361&sr=8-4&keywords=styrian+pumpkin+seeds


See Almonds comparison 1 oz. (76.55 mg.) magnesium (first set measure box a top of page for 1 oz., then scroll down to see data on magnesium under Minerals)

https://www.nutritionvalue.org/Nuts%2C_almonds_nutritional_value.html

[SophieSquirrel]

Definitely pointing in the right direction SophieSquirrel!

Considering almonds that are high in cost, and higher in oxalates, include Styrian hulless pumpkin seeds instead,

which are higher in Magnesium than Almonds (see data), and lower in oxalates than almonds.

That these hulless pumpkin seeds are higher in phosphorus than Calcium is actually a plus, for they can be used as a substitute phosphorus source

in place of inorganic phosphorus (commonly added to block diet sources) that veterinarians note lends to the formation of bladder stones in rodents.

Another trade out would be English Walnuts for Pecans, as they are higher in protein content, and lower in cost than the Pecan, that should lower the cost overall.

I wouldn't forget our American Red squirrel buddies; amongst other sources more suitable for Pine squirrels include hazelnuts,

and Nevada Soft shelled Pinyon pine nuts that have a Ca:P ratio close to that of the Pecan.

Again the trade off is substituting the best products (expensive) for foods that work (cost effective) so we don't have a product that costs $864 for a 33 Lb bag. One would think White Oak acorn grind would be the ultimate solution but that is not cheap when hand selected/processed to weed out Aflatoxins/rot. Unless processed into a "flour" acorns are perishable. I forgot about pumpkin seeds - yes better than almonds.

I don't think many people keep reds long enough to worry about MBD and a "side order" of pine nut for rehabbers that keep them would be in order.

[Diggie's Friend]

For 1 lb. Organic Chestnut flour: $23.35 including shipping: http://www.laddhillchestnuts.com/Chestnut-Flour-1lb_p_14.html

As for the final product price point, considering that the block wouldn't just have this one nut meal, that I could not say.

Though Chestinut meal hasn't yet been used in a commercial rodent block recipe, years ago before my work on my present organic diet for tree squirrels began, I made up a diet supplement using organic Chestnut flour, with the sources from the very same grower (link above). Though back then all that was included, besides the Chestnut flour, was a 2:1 ratio of Calcium citrate, Magnesium citrate, and Vitamin D3, with a small measure of dark molasses (not blackstrap). The very first time the Fox and Gray squirrels in rehab care, that had up to then only been given the " nutball" recipe were offered this recipe they went for it, and then came back begging for more, more, more! And though now I would not add much dark molasses if any, any present recipe I was to compose would include a full array of nutrients I haver included in my own researched and developed tree squirrel diet.

On a side note: acorns meal can be minimally processed for use in a homemade dough ball recipe. I would strongly encourage that the alfatoxin testing strips be used in this case. Also to oven dry the acorn meal once the leaching part of the processing is completed.

From there storing the completed nut dough balls, use a vacuum sealeing sytem that removes the excess air out of the bag; this is what my partner 'Luvs' has always used this to store all the perishable foods included in the diet as it greatly lengthens the time they stay good.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/how-to-make-acorn-flour-ze0z1509zcwil