Can I give Tums via syringe?

[Bella's Mom]

Hi, everyone. This past Saturday I posted that my 5 year old fox squirrel, Bella, was vomiting. I took her to the vet on Sunday. My examined her and did not find she had any impaction. He also did x-rays and did not see any blockage or tumors or anything like that. So he's treating her for gastroenteritis. He hydrated her sub-q, gave her a shot for nausea, and put her on antibiotics. They told me to withhold food and water for 24 hours, which I did. Then on Monday, I slowly gave her water and a little bit of food. She still couldn't keep that down. So I called me vet and he told me to bring her back in. They hydrated her again sub-q and gave her another shot for nausea. Since then she has been able to drink and keep that down. But she's still acting very lethargic and eating very little, although, when she does eat she's able to keep her food down too. She hasn't vomited since Monday evening and she pooped a little on Sunday. The poop was normal. She hasn't had any diarrhea. I'm getting very concerned about her because she's eating so little and I know she's not getting nearly enough calcium. She nibbled on a Henry's Healthy Block yesterday, but she didn't eat enough of it to get the calcium she needs. I have tried giving her a Tums several times but she won't eat it. I don't know what to do. My question is how do I get calcium into her? Can I crush up a Tums and mix it with water and give it to her through a syringe? And if so, how much and how often should I give it to her?

[Shewhosweptforest]

Aww Bella's mom I'm sorry she's having so much difficulty....I hope the vet can get this under control. As far as her calcium intake....if she's been eating a healthy diet all along then she will be fine through this period of illness. I'm sure the vet would have noticed on the X-rays if her bones were thin and brittle....you could always ask him to check...just to be sure. But if she's been eating her Henry's all along she will be fine...just work on keeping her hydrated :great even missing a few meals isn't going to hurt her....it's the hydration that you need to keep up with :Love_Icon

To answer your question....yes you can powder the tums and mix with water and feed through a syringe....but, I'd be more concerned about getting her to drink....and I'm not sure if excess calcium would help or cause more trouble when she's having digestive issues.

[Bella's Mom]

Okay, thank you. She has had a fairly healthy diet and getting enough calcium but, unfortunately, she has never eaten the Henry's Healthy Blocks in the past. She would just nibble on them and never eat a whole one. So I stopped getting them. I ordered them again because I recently resscued a male gray squirrel and I wanted him to eat them, which he does. They got here on Monday so I have been offering them to Bella and she just barely nibbed on it. She won't eat her collard greens or kale either. But she did eat a piece of papaya last night, which I know has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio. So she did get a little calcium that way.

[Shewhosweptforest]

If I were you....I'd call the vet and ask him how her bone density looked...he can always go back and check if he didn't originally....that would at least get that worry off your mind :great I sure hope this passes and she gets back to eating and drinking. For now keep the fluids coming :great thanks for working so hard to help her...
I'm glad you have a vet you can take her to:w00t

[Bella's Mom]

Also, I meant to mention my vet has squirrels himself, so I think, yes, he would have noticed on the x-rays if her bones were thin and brittle.

[Milo's Mom]

Have you tried getting her to drink a hydration solution? Homemade or otherwise? The number one reason for not eating is dehydration.

Have you tried giving her some molasses? Sometimes if you boost the blood sugar it will make them realize they need to drink and eat.

Is there a chance your vet will do blood work or a urine analysis?

I'm aiming for her taking in salt for others that are reading this. And this is sounding eerily familiar to a few other threads we've seen in the last several months/weeks/days.

[Bella's Mom]

Okay, that's a great idea. He didn't mention anything about her bones on the x-rays. But I will call him tomorrow and ask if he noticed anything about her bone density. Oh, of course, I'm doing everything I can to help her and take care of her. She is my sweet little baby angel she is my whole world! I just love her so much and I just want her to get better. This is so stessful for me and I know it is for her too! She is drinking plenty of water and keeping it down and keeping her antibiotics down, so I guess that's a good sign, right?

[Bella's Mom]

Have you tried getting her to drink a hydration solution? Homemade or otherwise? The number one reason for not eating is dehydration.

Have you tried giving her some molasses? Sometimes if you boost the blood sugar it will make them realize they need to drink and eat.

Is there a chance your vet will do blood work or a urine analysis?

I'm aiming for her taking in salt for others that are reading this. And this is sounding eerily familiar to a few other threads we've seen in the last several months/weeks/days.

On Saturday when she started vomiting someone here recommend the homemade hydration solution. So I made it and gave it to her, but she just kept throwing it up. But this was before she went to the vet. Should I try making the solution again and giving that to her? No, I haven't tried giving her any molasses. I suppose my vet could do blood work and a urine analysis, but he didn't do it when I took her originally. What do you mean by this is sounding eerily familiar to other posts/ threads?

[Milo's Mom]

Okay, that's a great idea. He didn't mention anything about her bones on the x-rays. But I will call him tomorrow and ask if he noticed anything about her bone density. Oh, of course, I'm doing everything I can to help her and take care of her. She is my sweet little baby angel she is my whole world! I just love her so much and I just want her to get better. This is so stessful for me and I know it is for her too! She is drinking plenty of water and keeping it down and keeping her antibiotics down, so I guess that's a good sign, right?

Honestly, I'm not overly concerned with her bones at this point. Yes they are very important, of course, but right now I'm wondering about her kidney function...hence asking about blood work and urine analysis.

Whacked out kidneys make them feel sick in the belly, not hungry, in pain, elevated blood pressure, refusing calcium, unable to resist salt, the list goes on. Actually the symptoms can mimic MBD and in short whacked out kidneys cause a form of MBD, but not the kind we are all so worried about with the diet.

So, before we go all into that, ask your vet about some blood work and at least a urine test. The urine test would be a very good place to start. If the vet agrees, collect her first pee of the day...it is the most concentrate and will provide the best results. Hold her over a plate or bowl and stimulate her to pee with your clean or gloved finger. Suck up the urine in a clean unused syringe. Keep it in fridge and get it it to vet as soon as possible after collecting it.

[Shewhosweptforest]

Yes...it does sound good that she's keeping the hydration down:great and wow :w00t it's awesome that your vet is familiar with squirrels....I agree that he probably would have looked at her bone density to rule MBD out:great I'd still ask tho :grin3 I totally understand your love and worry...been there and done that :Love_Icon they wrap their little paws around our hearts and we're hooked :klunk :Love_Icon

[Bella's Mom]

Honestly, I'm not overly concerned with her bones at this point. Yes they are very important, of course, but right now I'm wondering about her kidney function...hence asking about blood work and urine analysis.

Whacked out kidneys make them feel sick in the belly, not hungry, in pain, elevated blood pressure, refusing calcium, unable to resist salt, the list goes on. Actually the symptoms can mimic MBD and in short whacked out kidneys cause a form of MBD, but not the kind we are all so worried about with the diet.

So, before we go all into that, ask your vet about some blood work and at least a urine test. The urine test would be a very good place to start. If the vet agrees, collect her first pee of the day...it is the most concentrate and will provide the best results. Hold her over a plate or bowl and stimulate her to pee with your clean or gloved finger. Suck up the urine in a clean unused syringe. Keep it in fridge and get it it to vet as soon as possible after collecting it.
Okay, I will ask my vet to do that. Thank you!

[Milo's Mom]

On Saturday when she started vomiting someone here recommend the homemade hydration solution. So I made it and gave it to her, but she just kept throwing it up. But this was before she went to the vet. Should I try making the solution again and giving that to her? No, I haven't tried giving her any molasses. I suppose my vet could do blood work and a urine analysis, but he didn't do it when I took her originally. What do you mean by this is sounding eerily familiar to other posts/ threads?

That was a clue to others that will be reading your thread. We all have babies and our time here is limited so I was just sharing where my thoughts are going. I prolly should have worded it differently, but I did spell things out more clearly in my previous post. Sorry.

[Bella's Mom]

Yes...it does sound good that she's keeping the hydration down:great and wow :w00t it's awesome that your vet is familiar with squirrels....I agree that he probably would have looked at her bone density to rule MBD out:great I'd still ask tho :grin3 I totally understand your love and worry...been there and done that :Love_Icon they wrap their little paws around our hearts and we're hooked :klunk :Love_Icon
Yes, she sure did wrap her little paws around my heart and I am beyond hooked!

[Shewhosweptforest]

Honestly, I'm not overly concerned with her bones at this point. Yes they are very important, of course, but right now I'm wondering about her kidney function...hence asking about blood work and urine analysis.

Whacked out kidneys make them feel sick in the belly, not hungry, in pain, elevated blood pressure, refusing calcium, unable to resist salt, the list goes on. Actually the symptoms can mimic MBD and in short whacked out kidneys cause a form of MBD, but not the kind we are all so worried about with the diet.

So, before we go all into that, ask your vet about some blood work and at least a urine test. The urine test would be a very good place to start. If the vet agrees, collect her first pee of the day...it is the most concentrate and will provide the best results. Hold her over a plate or bowl and stimulate her to pee with your clean or gloved finger. Suck up the urine in a clean unused syringe. Keep it in fridge and get it it to vet as soon as possible after collecting it.



:yeahthat Very good info to know...especially with our older squirrels...thanks Milo's Mom :bowdown :Love_Icon

[Bella's Mom]

That was a clue to others that will be reading your thread. We all have babies and our time here is limited so I was just sharing where my thoughts are going. I prolly should have worded it differently, but I did spell things out more clearly in my previous post. Sorry.
Oh, that's okay, don't be sorry. I completely understand!

[Bella's Mom]

On Saturday when she started vomiting someone here recommend the homemade hydration solution. So I made it and gave it to her, but she just kept throwing it up. But this was before she went to the vet. Should I try making the solution again and giving that to her? No, I haven't tried giving her any molasses. I suppose my vet could do blood work and a urine analysis, but he didn't do it when I took her originally. What do you mean by this is sounding eerily familiar to other posts/ threads?

Okay, I made the hydration solution and gave her some. It only caused her to throw up again, which she has not done with just regular water. So I don't think it's a good idea to try to give her anymore.

[Milo's Mom]

Nope, no more of that. Thank you for trying and I'm sorry it made her puke again.

[Bella's Mom]

It's okay. I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it. I was just trying to help her too. Thank you!

[Mel1959]

So, at this point she’s still not eating, but is drinking plain water and keeping it down, correct? And she’s on antibiotics? The antibiotics can affect appetite. Which antibiotic is she on? Will she eat yogurt? I’m not sure if this would upset her tummy being milk based, but it typically doesn’t seem to have that affect on squirrels.

I think keeping her hydrated is really important so her kidneys keep functioning. I would not give any ibuprofen as it is very hard on the kidneys.

If she was mine and I had access to a knowledgeable vet, I’d take her in for blood work. Blood work will show her kidney function as well as any elevated values.

Im sorry you two are going through this and hope you get some answers soon. :hug

[Jen413]

I make make nut balls (it's just always what I call them) with HT rodent block, applesauce, coconut oil and a little bit of nuts. Often times I'll throw formula powder in there. I've never met a squirrel that won't chomp it down. Granted they weren't having tummy issues. Sammy even gobbled them up when I hid his medicine in it. Maybe you could try to grind up the Henry's block and mix it with a little apple sauce (no sugar added) or some sort of baby food to get it wet, roll it into a ball, and then she'd eat it? At least that way she's getting the henry's block. Maybe you could add some extra probiotics in there if others recommend it. Just a thought.

[Bella's Mom]

I make make nut balls (it's just always what I call them) with HT rodent block, applesauce, coconut oil and a little bit of nuts. Often times I'll throw formula powder in there. I've never met a squirrel that won't chomp it down. Granted they weren't having tummy issues. Sammy even gobbled them up when I hid his medicine in it. Maybe you could try to grind up the Henry's block and mix it with a little apple sauce (no sugar added) or some sort of baby food to get it wet, roll it into a ball, and then she'd eat it? At least that way she's getting the henry's block. Maybe you could add some extra probiotics in there if others recommend it. Just a thought.
These are great and very helpful ideas. Thank you so much!

[Bella's Mom]

So, at this point she’s still not eating, but is drinking plain water and keeping it down, correct? And she’s on antibiotics? The antibiotics can affect appetite. Which antibiotic is she on? Will she eat yogurt? I’m not sure if this would upset her tummy being milk based, but it typically doesn’t seem to have that affect on squirrels.

I think keeping her hydrated is really important so her kidneys keep functioning. I would not give any ibuprofen as it is very hard on the kidneys.

If she was mine and I had access to a knowledgeable vet, I’d take her in for blood work. Blood work will show her kidney function as well as any elevated values.

Im sorry you two are going through this and hope you get some answers soon. :hug
Thank you so much for your response. I apologize for not responding to you sooner. It has been a very stressful and hectic couple of days with Bella and I am just flat out exhausted. So Wednesday night she vomited up the hydration solution. She did not drink any water after that. She just went to sleep and slept all night. Thursday morning she vomited up her antibiotic. She wouldn't drink or eat after that. The antibiotic is Clavamox. She did not eat anything on Wednesday or Thursday. I took her to the vet Thursday night. They discontinued the Clavamox because it didn't seem to be helping. They hydrated her again sub-q, gave her another shot for nausea, and gave her a shot of Baytril, I think it's called. When she does drink just plain water, yes, she is able to keep it down. I then took her back Friday morning to the vet and they did blood work. The result of her blood work is very grim. It is not her kidneys. All of her organs are fine except for her liver. The vet determined she has cirrhosis of the liver. He is very experienced with squirrels and he said he has seen liver disease in squirrels before. He thought the cirrhosis may have been a result of her diet, but upon questioning me about her diet, he said it was not a result of her diet and he doesn't know what caused the cirrhosis. I am just stunned by this diagnosis. I have no idea in the world how this could have happened to my baby girl! When he was giving me the results of the blood test and his diagnosis of cirrhosis of the liver he kind of confused me by things he said after that. He said he needs to know how committed I am to trying to work on this issue because he said there are things he can try to do for her, but they may not help or work. He said not a lot is known about liver function and cirrhosis in squirrels. So then he basically said again the things that he could try to do may not help and she probably won't survive either way. So he said he needed to know what I want to do as far as doing treatment on her or just go ahead and put her to sleep. I was so shocked and stunned and basically speechless and I couldn't do anything but cry. He again stressed how bad off Bella is and she's probably not going to make it through this. Since I couldn't give him an answer on what I wanted to do right then, he said to take Bella home and think about what I want to do and give them a call back when I decided. He then put Bella on up to 2ml. Dextrose four times a day to help with her sugar and energy levels because she is not eating much. Friday afternoon and evening Bella actually started eating again and drinking water again and keeping everything down, although she is still not eating much, but she hadn't eaten anything since Tuesday, and Friday she seemed to have more of an appetite and is drinking more water than she has been. I am really, super upset and I just don't know what to do! I have been reading all over the place here on The Squirrel Board about how Milk Thistle is supposed to help the liver. But my vet didn't even mention that to me and they even sell it there in a tincture form at my vets office. My vet also did not tell me the things he could try for her that may not help. He just said there were things he could try, but did not elaborate any further on that. Do you or anyone else you know here on The Squirrel Board know if you think Milk Thistle could help Bella or is she just too far gone for that? When I started this thread I didn't know it was a life threatening emergency situation, but it has sure turned into one now! Could you or someone please advise me on if you think the Milk Thistle could help Bella? Thank you!

[Milo's Mom]

Thank you for getting the blood work done. Thank you for being a very good Mom to sweet Bella, and thank you for coming back to update us. :grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug You've both been on my mind since the other night. :Love_Icon

The shock and utter disbelief you feel...I know it all too well. (many of us here do, actually) I'm very sorry the diagnosis is so grim.

There is a lot of benefit to Milk Thistle and since your vet is experienced in squirrels and has some sort of an idea of a treatment plan, and he sells the Milk Thistle, I encourage you to ask him about it. I have used it on squirrels with success. I don't know what the treatment plan is so I believe us recommending something on top of what the vet advised could be counter productive. If the vet says "sure, it won't hurt anything" then I'd say absolutely let's give her liver as much support as possible. But, if the vet is hesitant, then maybe it needs further discussion/research.

I would also be asking the vet to explain the possible treatments...what's involved, what's the cost, how would we know if it's working, how do we know if it's not working, what are the side effects, what will her quality of life be like.

I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but it's what I would do....

[Bella's Mom]

Thank you for getting the blood work done. Thank you for being a very good Mom to sweet Bella, and thank you for coming back to update us. :grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug You've both been on my mind since the other night. :Love_Icon

The shock and utter disbelief you feel...I know it all too well. (many of us here do, actually) I'm very sorry the diagnosis is so grim.

There is a lot of benefit to Milk Thistle and since your vet is experienced in squirrels and has some sort of an idea of a treatment plan, and he sells the Milk Thistle, I encourage you to ask him about it. I have used it on squirrels with success. I don't know what the treatment plan is so I believe us recommending something on top of what the vet advised could be counter productive. If the vet says "sure, it won't hurt anything" then I'd say absolutely let's give her liver as much support as possible. But, if the vet is hesitant, then maybe it needs further discussion/research.

I would also be asking the vet to explain the possible treatments...what's involved, what's the cost, how would we know if it's working, how do we know if it's not working, what are the side effects, what will her quality of life be like.

I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but it's what I would do....

Thank you so much for your response and your opinion. Of course, I wanted to get the blood work done on Bella. She is my precious baby girl and I will do everything I can to help her. Bella is my whole life and she has been since I rescued her 5 years ago at approximately 8 weeks old. I live for her!

Yes, I know you are correct in saying that I should talk to my vet about all of those things regarding caring for Bella. At the time, I was just shocked, stunned, and dazed at the diagnosis and at him telling me she probably won't survive. It was hard to process and absorb anything else he was telling me at that time. My mind just went numb and I couldn't form the thoughts and words in my brain in order to ask him any of those questions and have a discussion about the treatment plan options he had in mind for Bella. Yes, he is a very knowledgeable and good vet. He has over 30 years experience in caring for squirrels. I took a rescue squirrel to him three and a half years ago who had a parasite in his brain. Dr. Garner knew what is was right away and his quick, proper diagnosis and treatment saved that squirrel's life. Three weeks ago I caught a squirrel who had been attacked by a stray cat in my backyard. I scooped him up and rushed him to Dr. Garner immediately. Dr. Garner's quick, proper treatment also saved the life of that squirrel. He is currently under my care and I named him Jacob. He is doing so well and recovering nicely. I trust my vet and he is wonderful. I am so blessed to have found such a great exotic vet who has a ton of experience with squirrels and is only five minutes away from me! I will talk to him about what kind of treatment plan he has in mind for Bella, cost, side effects, how will I know if it's working or not, and Bella's quality of life is of utmost importance to me. And I will also talk to him about the Milk Thistle and if he feels that would be a good idea as part of her treatment plan or not.

Bella had a better day yesterday after we got home from the vet. But it's been really difficult to get the Dextrose solution into her. Unfortunately, she is having a very bad day today and I fear she may be close to death. Today is the worst day she's had since she got sick last Saturday. She was laying inside my shirt on my chest earlier just very out of it, extremely lethargic, and weak, and not moving. But she wanted to go back back into her bed so now she's just laying there on her side, breathing but not moving, staring off into space. I have been sleeping on my couch every night next to Bella's cage in case she needed me in the middle of the night. If you could call it sleeping anyway. I haven't slept since Thursday during the day for a couple of hours because I'm so worried sick about my little girl. I have just been laying down on the couch at night listening for Bella if she needs me and giving her water when she wakes up at night, which she has been doing often. She can't sleep through the night. I'm sure she has got to be in a lot of pain and I know she's been running a fever. So I fear I may have to make that dreaded phone call to the vet instead of calling to discuss a treatment plan for her because I love her so much and I don't want her to suffer any more than she is right now. She is going down hill very quickly today.

[Milo's Mom]

I can feel your pain and anguish in your words and I'm sorry this is all happening. But I do really understand what you're feeling. I lost my girl, my life, the reason I woke up in the morning 11 months ago today...to kidney failure. (sadly, this is why I picked up on some of the things you were saying she was doing and not doing...made me think it was bigger than MBD...the reason I asked you to get the blood work)

How are you administering the Dextrose? Orally? SQ? If the vet has you giving her the Dextrose to boost her blood sugar some molasses on her gums and tongue may boost it enough to allow you to get the Dextrose in.

You are very lucky to have such an experienced vet so close and so willing to help you.

I'm keeping you both in my prayers. :grouphug

Hold her and love on her, just your touch and voice will sooth her. :Love_Icon

[cava]

I'm so sorry you're in this position. I was in a very similar situation with my 8 year old ferret two years ago, liver involvement and quick decline after diagnosis.

We're here for you. Follow your heart and your gut and you'll know what to do and when. Hugs.:hug

[Bella's Mom]

I can feel your pain and anguish in your words and I'm sorry this is all happening. But I do really understand what you're feeling. I lost my girl, my life, the reason I woke up in the morning 11 months ago today...to kidney failure. (sadly, this is why I picked up on some of the things you were saying she was doing and not doing...made me think it was bigger than MBD...the reason I asked you to get the blood work)

How are you administering the Dextrose? Orally? SQ? If the vet has you giving her the Dextrose to boost her blood sugar some molasses on her gums and tongue may boost it enough to allow you to get the Dextrose in.

You are very lucky to have such an experienced vet so close and so willing to help you.

I'm keeping you both in my prayers. :grouphug

Hold her and love on her, just your touch and voice will sooth her. :Love_Icon
Thank you so much for understanding. I know you do understand. There are probably quite a few people on here who have lost at least one of their precious squirrels. I'm so very sorry you lost your precious girl to kidney disease. Yes, I can relate to that loss because Bella is the reason I get up in the morning too. You were very close with the kidney thing. When I took her to the vet Thursday night I did mention that I had been talking to someone on The Squirrel Board who suspected it may be kidney problems. My vet took that into consideration and when I took her back Friday to have her blood work done they discovered her kidneys are fine but it was liver problems she is actually having problems with. So I'm guessing the signs and symptoms of kidney problems and liver problems are very similar. Bella is also having dark colored urine too, which made me think it may be her kidneys also. But it turns out that the dark color in her urine is caused by bilirubin which is from her liver.

The Dextrose is a liquid solution given orally. She just doesn't want to take the Dextrose and I'm not able to get much of it into her mouth. The molasses is a good idea. I will try rubbing some of that on her gums or on her tongue to see if it helps her take the Dextrose better. Thank you for the suggestion.

Bella is now laying beside me wrapped up in a blanket on my bed. I am taking to her, singing to her, and petting her behind her ears and on her cheeks which she loves and it is soothing her and comforting her. I at least am taking comfort in the fact that my vet said he doesn't know how or why this happened, but it was nothing I did wrong. He said liver disease and actually kidney disease just sometimes happens in squirrels who are a little older, as well as rats.

Thank you again so much for all of your help and thank you so much for keeping us both in your prayers!

[Bella's Mom]

I'm so sorry you're in this position. I was in a very similar situation with my 8 year old ferret two years ago, liver involvement and quick decline after diagnosis.

We're here for you. Follow your heart and your gut and you'll know what to do and when. Hugs.:hug
Thank you so much very much! I really appreciate it! I'm so sorry you lost your 8 year old ferret. My heart goes out to you!

[Toddy]

Sending love and prayers your way:grouphug
:Love_Icon Bella :Love_Icon Bella’s Mom:Love_Icon

[Mel1959]

:Love_Icon prayers :Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

This cause of liver cirrhosis is not from what is in the foods, but what may be on them?

Both humans and mammals are susceptible to being infected with this this parasite.


"Jan 23, 2007 ... fibrosis: Rats infected with the Capillaria nematodes develop septal hepatic fibrosis 20-30 days after infection.22 Rats infected with the helminth Capillaria hepatica regularly develop septal fibrosis of the liver. Fibrosis starts when the focal parasitic lesions begin to show signs of resorption"

Their eggs can be found in the feces.

Perhaps that would be something that could be taken to your vet by a relative or friend so you could stay with your squirrel?

[Milo's Mom]

Just thinking about you and sweet Bella. :grouphug:grouphug:grouphug

[Bella's Mom]

This cause of liver cirrhosis is not from what is in the foods, but what may be on them?

Both humans and mammals are susceptible to being infected with this this parasite.



Their eggs can be found in the feces.

Perhaps that would be something that could be taken to your vet by a relative or friend so you could stay with your squirrel?
Thank you for this information. But I have been doing extensive research on this topic and I cannot find any information regarding what you said about it's not what is in the foods, but what may be on them. Could you please recommend something I can read that states that the cirrhosis is caused by what is on the foods. Thank you!