Diarrhea, lethargy and no progress on weight gaining

[Sk1307]

My babies are going on 3 weeks old. My boy, Milo, has had a lot of issues. He was not doing well on esbilac at first and started bloating up. His sister, Mozza, had no issues other than the fact she wasn’t gaining weight at all. So, I got help on here and got him hydrated and then switched them both to goats milk formula (3 parts gm, 1 heavy whipping cream, 1 full fat yogurt). His bloat went away and he was completely better for awhile aside from the fact that he had looser stool. It wasn’t too terrible but it was nothing like Mozza’s. As I kept feeding him, I thought the stool was getting firmer but in the past 12 or so hours it has just gotten a lot worse. The last feeding, it was white and completely liquid. Before that, it had the normal yellow color. Mozza was doing great since I switched her. She gained weight rapidly, but this past feeding she had loose stool too. We also had a bad problem with suckling on Milo. His penis was swollen, deep red and purplish. It was really bad, but I fixed it within 24 hours. It’s back to normal color. No visible scab. He still hasn’t gotten back to peeing normally though. He's only peed small drops since this happened.

For a timeline:
3/10 - Beat bloat completely
3/12 8 pm- suckling issue
3/13 12 am- peed a small amount
3/13 8 pm - penis appearance completely back to normal

Ever since then, I’ve noticed he has lost interest in eating and since it’s appeared to be fixed, it still hasn’t came back. He also hasn’t been peeing the normal amount. And majority of feedings, he hasn’t been peeing at all. Even with a lot of stimulation. I’ve made large batches of Gmf and frozen them so I can continue to keep the goats milk fresh despite its short shelf life. Could this be an issue? I’ve been spacing feedings out 2.5-3 hours and feeding them 5% of their body weight. I’m so lost at this point. I’m planning on giving them only water for the next couple feedings (starting at 7). Everyone is so amazing on here, thanks so much for your constant support.

[LR]

Try spacing your feeding out to about 4 and1/2 hours. White poop is normally a sign of too much calcium intake and diarrhea is /could be from over feeding.

Welcome to TSB!

[BCChins]

Sorry to hear he is not doing good...Poor Baby
Please keep us updated on them even if nothing crazy is going on. Been wondering how they were for a few days now.

[Sk1307]

Sorry to hear he is not doing good...Poor Baby
Please keep us updated on them even if nothing crazy is going on. Been wondering how they were for a few days now.

They were doing well for a few days there :( I’ll give updates later this afternoon.

[cava]

Hi there. I'm sorry you're having trouble.

Since they are both having diarrhea, I'd think it's the food source. When I was using GMF I would make up the batch for the day in the morning and do this every morning. I found that I couldn't freeze it because the fat separated from the heavy whipping cream and I could never get it to be normal again. (I have tried just freezing heavy whipping cream and using it in coffee, it's messed up after freezing and reheating)

I used to buy powdered goat's milk, and I found you can make batches of that up and freeze that. I would buy the tiniest cartons of heavy whipping cream, which I never froze. And six packs of yogurt so I could open them in small batches.

I also read freezing the yogurt can kill the probiotics. I think you should make an entire new fresh batch of the formula, no freezing.

Also if they are doing well on the GMF, but have some loose stools and aren't gaining daily, you can probably add in some Esbilac formula. May be just start with 10% Esbilac formula mixed into 90% GMF and see if that helps. You could go up from there based on poops, bloated belly, weight.

Edit: You can freeze Esbilac. I make with extremely hot water, mix in the blender, let it sit in fridge and settle, filter through cheese cloth and then store it (freeze or use it)

[Mel1959]

I think a Cava and LR have the right idea. A whole new mixture of formula AND spacing the feedings a little further apart.

I’m concerned about the little guys inability to pee normally. When my guy had been suckled and he went to pee his penis inflated like a balloon, even though there was no scab on the end. I had to very gently express the penis to release the urine. It was like the tip of the urethra had been damaged so the urine wouldn’t flow out. You might try a warm bath or warm compresses on his penis to see if that will help open the urethra. I also have noticed that when my dwarf steps on something cold, like floor tiles he almost immediately urinates. I don’t want your little guy to get chilled by putting him on something cold but if you could find a way to keep his body covered and let his feet touch something cold maybe it would stimulate urine. If he has to urinate he may not readily want to eat.

I hope they get back to normal soon. :Love_Icon

[Sk1307]

he’s so lethargic right now. He won’t even attempt to latch onto the nipple so I was just giving him small drops of water at a time to keep him hydrated. He aspirated the water. He just started clicking. I called a few vets to see if they can prescribe him antibitiotics and one said they would call me back. I’m going to call a few other places. I should be able to have him to a vet within an hour.

[Mel1959]

If the vet doesn’t work, can you get some antibiotics that might be left over from family or friends. You want Augmentin (human) / Clavamox (animal) OR Ciproflaxin (human) / Baytril (animal). If you can locate any of these someone on here can dose the meds once we have a weight on the baby.

[cava]

Keep him warm, hold him next to your bare skin. Keep offering drops of warmed hydration fluid. Be careful and go slow, if he is having trouble breathing, it will be a struggle for him to drink. You can add a bit of syrup or molassas to it to give him a source glucose. His body will be burning more if he is fighting illness. Be sure his environment is quiet, warm and allows rest with as little stress as possible.

Like Mel said, Augmenten/Clavamox or Ciprofloxicin/Baytril (human/animal). May be the vet you use would be willing to give you a couple of tabs if you let them know you are working with the advice of a squirrel rehabber.

Let us know what you were able to get and his weight so you can be given instructions on how to break it down and dose it.

[Sk1307]

I have an appointment in 2 hours. That’s the earliest I could get anywhere. He weighs 23.98g

[Sk1307]

Keep him warm, hold him next to your bare skin. Keep offering drops of warmed hydration fluid. Be careful and go slow, if he is having trouble breathing, it will be a struggle for him to drink. You can add a bit of syrup or molassas to it to give him a source glucose. His body will be burning more if he is fighting illness. Be sure his environment is quiet, warm and allows rest with as little stress as possible.

Like Mel said, Augmenten/Clavamox or Ciprofloxicin/Baytril (human/animal). May be the vet you use would be willing to give you a couple of tabs if you let them know you are working with the advice of a squirrel rehabber.

Let us know what you were able to get and his weight so you can be given instructions on how to break it down and dose it.

Should I give him pedialyte or plain water?

[Nancy in New York]

Should I give him pedialyte or plain water?

Give him pedialyte since he has diarrhea.

[SophieSquirrel]

What part of IN are you in? I have a top exotic vet reference in Indianapolis that is sqrl friendly. You can PM me.

[Nancy in New York]

What part of IN are you in? I have a top exotic vet reference in Indianapolis that is sqrl friendly. You can PM me.

Thank you for this offer. :w00t

[SophieSquirrel]

PM reply sent. I know your vet and your little one is in good hands with this excellent veterinary health care provider. Let us know how things go.

[Sk1307]

The doctor prescribed baytril, metoclopramide syrup, and spectinomycin. He has it mixed all together in a dropper bottle. He said to give him one drop 4 times a day. I just gave him his first drop. When do you guys recommend I feed him next? The doctor didn’t specify. And what formula do you guys recommend I use for the rest of the day? I’ll have fox valley formula by tomorrow to start 50/50 with esbilac.

[cava]

If he will take food, try offering it and build him back up to what he should be receiving. He can't afford to lose any more weight. Make fresh batches and go slow. You may offer hydration in between feedings but not in place of. It's important he stays hydrated while on antibiotics.

spectinomycin--is that correct? I looked it up and it says it's a gonorrhea injectable medicine not available in the U.S.

Also, did your vet say he had pneumonia?

[Nancy in New York]

If he will take food, try offering it and build him back up to what he should be receiving. He can't afford to lose any more weight. [/COLOR]

Exactly he's lost 10 grams in a week.:(
What city do you live in?
Sk1307, do you want us to see if we can find a rehabber near you?
Did you go to the vet that SophieSquirrel suggested?

[cava]

Can you post a photo of both babies? I am wondering if we're missing something here, especially if your little gal is having trouble too. Since you know he has had problems with the esbilac, I wouldn't recommend putting him back on that. His little body is already fighting so hard, no need to add that problem to him. Also, switching formulas takes time so even if you were to go onto Fox Valley, you may want him stable first.

Can you explain exactly how you are prepping the feedings, are you reheating what's left over after a feeding, what you're using to feed with, how she's eating v. how he is eating, etc?

I'm going to pm you to see how far away from me you are...

[Sk1307]

Can you post a photo of both babies? I am wondering if we're missing something here, especially if your little gal is having trouble too. Since you know he has had problems with the esbilac, I wouldn't recommend putting him back on that. His little body is already fighting so hard, no need to add that problem to him. Also, switching formulas takes time so even if you were to go onto Fox Valley, you may want him stable first.

Can you explain exactly how you are prepping the feedings, are you reheating what's left over after a feeding, what you're using to feed with, how she's eating v. how he is eating, etc?

I'm going to pm you to see how far away from me you are...

She only had diarrhea once this morning. Her stool is already getting back to normal. I skipped a feeding to hydrate her and that seemed to fix it. I’ve been pouring small amounts of formula into a separate bowl to heat. I originally was heating and refrigerating the same liquid over and over but I learned that’s not good about a week ago and stopped doing that. I’m using a 1cc syringe. She’s always been a good eater, she’s always enthusiastic. He’s been the exact opposite the whole time I’ve had him, but for a while there he was more into the feedings. He’s at his worst right now though, he has never been so uninterested. I’m going to try to feed him right now.

[Sk1307]

Exactly he's lost 10 grams in a week.:(
What city do you live in?
Sk1307, do you want us to see if we can find a rehabber near you?
Did you go to the vet that SophieSquirrel suggested?




I live in Fort Wayne. I’ve looked but had no luck finding a squirrel rehabber. There was one on the DNR list, but she no longer accepts them. I went to a different vet but he said it was an excellent vet that is recommended for wildlife.

[Sk1307]

If he will take food, try offering it and build him back up to what he should be receiving. He can't afford to lose any more weight. Make fresh batches and go slow. You may offer hydration in between feedings but not in place of. It's important he stays hydrated while on antibiotics.

spectinomycin--is that correct? I looked it up and it says it's a gonorrhea injectable medicine not available in the U.S.

Also, did your vet say he had pneumonia?

He told me he prescribed an anti diarrheal and antibiotics. Yes, that is what it is called. That is weird. Yes, he did.

[Spanky]

spectinomycin--is that correct?

Wondering if it is streptomycin?

[cava]

That makes WAY more sense!

[island rehabber]

That makes WAY more sense!

Yes, it does...but better check that bottle and make sure the pharmacy GAVE you streptomycin, NOT spectinomycin!

[Sk1307]

Yes, it does...but better check that bottle and make sure the pharmacy GAVE you streptomycin, NOT spectinomycin!

It says spectinomycin.. weird lol I wonder if it was a typo. Idk why a vet would have illegal gonnorhea meds

[Nancy in New York]

It says spectinomycin.. weird lol I wonder if it was a typo. Idk why a vet would have illegal gonnorhea meds

Have you given this yet?
If not, let me direct someone to your thread, before you do, ok?

[redwuff]

I have never heard of combining 3 drugs like this before. This baby needs Baytril or Clavamox. Is there any way of getting just one of those meds?

[HRT4SQRLS]

Spectinomycin is correct. Even though it isn't used in the US it is still used in other countries. It is also used in veterinary medicine. It is an excellent antibiotic but it is an older antibiotic so it has been replaced by newer and better antibiotics in the US in human practice. It is similar to the aminoglycocides like gentamicin, amikacin and tobramycin.

Just because it was used to treat gonorrheae at one time that doesn't mean it's the only thing it treats. It is an antibiotic that has coverage for Gram negative organisms.
Combining the antibiotics is no different from stacking. I believe the 3rd component is something for the GI tract.

[Mel1959]

How are things going with this little guy? I saw you asked several posts back about the formula. Don’t change the formula, keep him on the goats milk formula. It’s the easiest for him to digest. He can’t afford to lose any weight during a formula transition. Don’t substitute hydration for a feeding. Offer hydration in between feedings.

THANK YOU HRT! It’s GREAT to hear that the Rx the vet gave you is a good one. Follow his directions.

[gbrown]

I believe the 3rd component is something for the GI tract.

Correct, metoclopramide is an antiemetic (prevents nausea and vomiting).

Hope this little guy feels better soon! :Love_Icon

[SophieSquirrel]

I talked with Sky and sadly her little boy passed. We need to focus on helping her with her girl. Sky has experience with other species and raised a baby cottontail successfully which in and of itself deserves an award. I think we can talk her through this as no rehabbers are available in her area, I went down that road last summer.

Dr. L in Indy was too far so she want to another one in her area that is also in my book of recommended vets.

Spectinomycin is used for bovine, pigs & poultry but I am not sure about applicability for squirrels or that I would personally use it. I don't want to advise against any vet's prescription. Others may want to chime in.

Spectinomycin is indicated for use via the oral and parenteral routes, often in conjunction with lincomycin, in the treatment of a variety of enteric, respiratory and other infections of cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry. In veterinary medicine spectinomycin is used as hydrocloride and sulphate salts.

[Mel1959]

I’m sorry to hear the little boy passed. RIP little guy :Love_Icon :sadness. There could have been a multitude of issues. Sky needs to stay the course with the little girl. If she’s doing well on the goatsmilk formula then she shouldn’t change it till she’s a little older. At that time she could then do 50/50 Esbilac or FV. IMO.

[Sk1307]

Thank you for all of your help. Even before the issue with the pneumonia, he wasn’t taking food during feedings. I tried feeding him but he wasn’t swallowing. I’m just glad he’s not suffering anymore :(

I’ve continued Gmf with my girl and she’s been doing good. I used less heavy whipping cream, because I was informed it could be the cause of the diarrhea. I only put a couple drops in the mixture. Her stool has been getting better. It’s not back to as firm as before, but it is coming out in one piece and it isn’t too loose.

[Nancy in New York]

Thank you for all of your help. Even before the issue with the pneumonia, he wasn’t taking food during feedings. I tried feeding him but he wasn’t swallowing. I’m just glad he’s not suffering anymore :(

I’ve continued Gmf with my girl and she’s been doing good. I used less heavy whipping cream, because I was informed it could be the cause of the diarrhea. I only put a couple drops in the mixture. Her stool has been getting better. It’s not back to as firm as before, but it is coming out in one piece and it isn’t too loose.

How much is your little girl taking at each feeding?

Here's a photo of a 1 cc syringe, where is the mark on this, that she's consuming at one feeding?
I just want to double check because sometimes people get confused.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6fXTJwR/0/cb295772/O/i-6fXTJwR.jpg

[SophieSquirrel]

Great chart Nancy!

Sky, can you post her weight in grams on here? You should receive the 1 mL O-Ring syringe and Miracle Nipple I sent you tomorrow. I also sent here a bag of 20/50. Due to diarrhea issues possibly from H W Cream any thoughts from other members on mixing 20/50 with Goats Milk? I've always used formulas & combinations (FV/ESB) vs straight "milks" and GM spoils quickly & easily.

This small Pyrex measuring cup can be found at any supermarket. It goes with the stainless warming cup I sent you to mix and measure your formula.

299484

[Sk1307]

How much is your little girl taking at each feeding?

Here's a photo of a 1 cc syringe, where is the mark on this, that she's consuming at one feeding?
I just want to double check because sometimes people get confused.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6fXTJwR/0/cb295772/O/i-6fXTJwR.jpg

I feed her 1.4cc so I fill the syringe completely once, then fill it again to 0.4cc

[Nancy in New York]

Great chart Nancy!

Sky, can you post her weight in grams on here? You should receive the 1 mL O-Ring syringe and Miracle Nipple I sent you tomorrow. I also sent here a bag of 20/50. Due to diarrhea issues possibly from H W Cream any thoughts from other members on mixing 20/50 with Goats Milk? I've always used formulas & combinations (FV/ESB) vs straight "milks" and GM spoils quickly & easily.

This small Pyrex measuring cup can be found at any supermarket. It goes with the stainless warming cup I sent you to mix and measure your formula.

299484

I would do that, but I wouldn't add the HC back into the GM formula
since the 20/50 FV has higher fat.
I think if we go this route we do so slowly.
I also wonder if we should go with the powdered GM until
a switch over to all FV 20/50 which would be somewhere down the line.
Not sure when though.

[Sk1307]

Great chart Nancy!

Sky, can you post her weight in grams on here? You should receive the 1 mL O-Ring syringe and Miracle Nipple I sent you tomorrow. I also sent here a bag of 20/50. Due to diarrhea issues possibly from H W Cream any thoughts from other members on mixing 20/50 with Goats Milk? I've always used formulas & combinations (FV/ESB) vs straight "milks" and GM spoils quickly & easily.

This small Pyrex measuring cup can be found at any supermarket. It goes with the stainless warming cup I sent you to mix and measure your formula.

299484
As of yesterday night, she weighs 29.98g

[Jen413]

I used esbilac/GMF before I transitioned to Esbilac/FV 50/50 last fall. Baby did great on it with no issues. I've got a baby that has had diarrhea that is starting to resolve itself and she is on GMF with no HC and my FV came in last night and I've started her with GMF/FV 75/25 and she's still holding where she was with the poop issue. I've also got her on the brac diet as well.

[Nancy in New York]

As of yesterday night, she weighs 29.98g

OK can you look at the photo of the syringe I posted and tell me where
the mark on the syringe is that you're feeding her.
Is she taking more than 1 whole syringe?

[Sk1307]

OK can you look at the photo of the syringe I posted and tell me where
the mark on the syringe is that you're feeding her.
Is she taking more than 1 whole syringe?

Yes, one whole syringe and an additional .4cc

[Nancy in New York]

Yes, one whole syringe and an additional .4cc

Thank you!
Try to up that a little bit at a time.
Here's a great chart to help you figure out the "rule of thumb"
It goes by weight in grams and then go across and you'll see the
5%, 6% and 7% recommended amounts.
Once she is stablized, we will start going higher than the rule
of thumb IF she still seems hungry, and we'll do that SLOWLY.
That will be somewhere down the line though, ok?
I have a feeling that once she's on the FV20/50 you will see the weight
going on faster.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-hR5J5cq/1/6d577129/X2/i-hR5J5cq-X2.jpg

[SophieSquirrel]

Sky,

Tomorrow you will receive the Fox Valley 20/50 formula and the formula warming cup. Cooling and re-heating formula degrades it and microwaving in never recommended. Get 2 small glass measuring cup as shown in the photo at Kroger/Martins/Meijer etc. Using a small spoon measure 1 equal part 20/50 and 1 equal part Puppy Esbilac powder into the glass tumbler. Dump the mix onto a dry paper towel or dry container and set aside. Wherever the combination measures to you now need 2 parts water. So if it's 1 Tbsp of FV and 1 Tbsp of Esb that equals 2 Tbsp of formula. Now fill the glass tumbler with 4 Tbsps of water and microwave water only for 20 seconds, do not boil! Then add the 2 Tbspns dry formula to the water and mix well. Cap refrigerate and let sit for up to 24 hours to absorb water. It will appear watery and nothing should be floating on the top - if it is stir in well. Make only enough to use in 2 days and keep the 2 tumblers rotating so you don't run out of formula while one is absorbing. While one is absorbing water the other is in use. You have a little baby so small amounts per tumbler for now. For use take out of the refrigerator STIR well and pour only enough for the feeding into the stainless warming cup I sent you. Place the cup in a bowl of warm water from the faucet to avoid overheating and warm to touch. Use the O-Ring syringe I sent you and Miracle nipple. Fill the syringe first then attach the nipple. Remember SLOW or baby will aspirate. Practice first with water in the syringe getting only the tiniest drop. If a stream comes out you are going too quick and will flood the babies mouth with formula.

Like others said transition slowly first using Goatsmilk and 20/50 before going to the 20/50 - Esb mix. remember anytime you add powder formula to GM you have to do the 2 parts water to 1 part powdered formula before mixing with Goatsmilk, do not dilute the powder with the Goatsmilk!

Here is my suggestion:

Get away from the heavy cream

1/2 Goatsmilk 1/2 20/50 (watch your Goatsmilk it spoils quickly)

In a week or so 1/2 Esbillac 1/2 20/50 If stools get soft take a step back

At about 6 weeks you are going to introduce the Rodent Block and we can advise you on which one as the time nears.

Here is a good guide: https://www.henryspets.com/3-formula-feeding/

Measuring tumbler and warming cup in warm tap water

299505

[cava]

Just to update folks, I am caring for baby girl right now. Sky really worked hard on these babies and I must say I admire her selflessness in putting her into experienced hands when she wasn't doing well. So, Sky, I'm proud of you.

I'll call her Sylvia for now and I'll start another thread to update just her stuff in one place. (It's sort of sad here, brother's passing and all.) We can link to it later.

[Jen413]

Just to update folks, I am caring for baby girl right now. Sky really worked hard on these babies and I must say I admire her selflessness in putting her into experienced hands when she wasn't doing well. So, Sky, I'm proud of you.

I'll call her Sylvia for now and I'll start another thread to update just her stuff in one place. (It's sort of sad here, brother's passing and all.) We can link to it later.

I know it must be hard turning her over, but she is in great hands with Cava! :Love_Icon

[Sk1307]

Just to update folks, I am caring for baby girl right now. Sky really worked hard on these babies and I must say I admire her selflessness in putting her into experienced hands when she wasn't doing well. So, Sky, I'm proud of you.

I'll call her Sylvia for now and I'll start another thread to update just her stuff in one place. (It's sort of sad here, brother's passing and all.) We can link to it later.

I've been calling her Mozza :Love_Icon

[cava]

I've been calling her Mozza :Love_Icon

How about Mozilvia? :grin2