Discussion with Dr E / Corn

[SophieSquirrel]

I had a long conversation with Dr. E this morning regarding squirrel nutrition and the subject of corn came up. Corn is the bane of Prairie Dogs causing Gall Bladder failure and is not good for squirrels either. Dr E also cited corn allergies in some squirrels. Teklad and many of the other blocks contain Corn as a primary ingredient.

I would like some opinions from senior TSB members on this product (ingredients listed). LINK: http://supremepetfoods.com/products/science-selective-rat/

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[CritterMom]

Yet another reason to feed the HHBs. ALL commercial diets for rodents use corn as a base because it is CHEAP. They just dump tons of vitamins and minerals into it to try to balance out the awful levels it has naturally...

They are naturally pretty low carb, you know. Squirrels in nature don't eat grasses and grains like wheat and barley. I would have to assume it could cause issues eventually.

Remember, these foods are made for rats, who, due to inbreeding, only live 2-3 years. Nobody CARES what would happen in year 5 of their lives because they won't HAVE one...

[Nancy in New York]

I reached out to 4skwerlz
last night because I had some questions and confusion about
blocks.
I figured if I was confused, than others may be as well.
I posted this in the thread where I had some questions,
and I'm posting it here as well.
This morning I got her permission to post her answer.
Thank you again 4skwerlz for taking the time to get back to
me so promptly.


Regarding the issue of feeding HHB's plus commercial rodent blocks:

1. In general, I don't recommend mixing multiple fortified foods because each one is balanced in a different way to achieve a certain nutritional result. It's like taking a Flintstones children's vitamin and a Centrum Silver every day. What kind of vitamin profile do you end up with? For sure it will be different from what was intended by the vitamin makers. Will it hurt you? Probably not; but you may not be getting the optimum benefit.

Another example specific to the block issue: most commercial rodent blocks are made with much higher amounts of degradable vitamins (A, D, E, etc.) than required because their products must survive months on the shelf. This means the nutrient profile of your Harlan Teklad or Mazuri blocks will vary quite a bit depending on how old they are. In contrast, because HHBs are fresh baked, have no shelf life, and are stored cold, we don't need to oversupplement anything. Every bag will be balanced "just so." I think you can see that feeding commercial blocks alongside HHBs will, to some extent, unbalance what we hope and believe is a *perfectly* balanced food.

2. With Henry's blocks, you pay a premium price for a super-premium product: all human-quality ingredients, no soy, no corn, no preservatives, no menadione, etc. By feeding the commercial stuff as well, you're putting all those bad ingredients right back into your squirrel's diet.

So no, I never recommend feeding Henry's with commercial blocks. I know a lot of rehabbers do this, partly for cost concerns. That's different. Short-term, all of these things are much less important. I am more concerned about the lifetime diet of a pet or NR.

To be clear, I do not claim the mixing causes actual harm, even long-term, merely that it is not optimal nutritionally. I do have more serious concerns about adding the "bad ingredients" back into the diet.

I hope that clears things up!

[Chickenlegs]

Thank you Leigh and thank you Nancy for asking the question and posting Leigh’s answer. And thank you SS for starting the thread.

[SophieSquirrel]

With Henry's blocks, you pay a premium price for a super-premium product: all human-quality ingredients, no soy, no corn, no preservatives, no menadione, etc. By feeding the commercial stuff as well, you're putting all those bad ingredients right back into your squirrel's diet.

That is sound logic and "putting bad ingredients back into the diet" rings true with soy/corn. However, I have personally observed my sqrls picking apart Henry's blocks and only eating the large pecan pieces leaving the healthy parts on the floor and never touching them. Attached is a photo of an adult HHB with a large pecan piece showing. Someone who knows Leigh well should suggest doing a very fine grind on the Pecans so the flavor is evenly disbursed in the block and there are no pieces to pick out. This would make the whole block more palatable. It's like putting a bowl of healthy food in the cage and a bowl of nuts. As all of you know the squirrel will eat the nuts and leave the rest.

Henry's is the best as far as ingredients go and I always recommend it. The Pecan pieces should be ground better. Another issue is $18 for a bag that lasts a week is a LOT of money for most PPL. I am sure someone will get on here and say "if you can't afford the pet".... Well a lot of GREAT squirrel parents on here are not rich. I would love to feed my 8 nothing but Henry's (with a finer nut grind), but that would put me at over $100 / week (I did the math). I cannot afford that. Mine came from rehabbers that were going to euthanize so they are better off on Teklad / Henry's than the alternative. We all know that is the law in most states and many rehabbers can't care for every paralyzed sqrl. Everything is a trade off and the common sense/economic trade off (for me) is Teklad with HHB added for the much needed better quality ingredients. Karen Clark who was respected and loved only used Zupreem Fruitblend bird food and had squirrels who live 9-10 years on it. It's not an exact science and yes Henry's is the best out there but in reality a rehabber with 30 squees cannot afford it.

The ONLY businesses that care enough to listen are Nick at Fox Valley and Dr E is going to call him to discuss changes to the formula that have given some sqrls issues. The other is Brisky pets, they are the "Henry's" of Prairie Dog food. Big manufacturers like HT, Mazuri, Oxbow Etc care more about profits and do not generally take suggestions from the general public. Their products are not bad but could use improvements. Same with FV and we are working on it.

Just my 2 cents....

HHB with large Pecan

298389

[Chickenlegs]

I make blocks using Henry’s vitamins. I have some overwinter boys that will eat me out of house and home unless I doctor them a little—extra whey sometimes extra nuts when there’s a sale. Everybody gets more than two a day so they do get nutrition and the good vitamins and calcium but the stretch helps my guys go out healthy next spring and I’m not on a street corner with a cardboard sign that says “hungry. My squirrels ate all the food”. Even my uber “I don’t want it and you can’t make me eat it” squirrels get good stuff. The extra nuts likely mess with balances but everything is fresh and absolutely no bad stuff—except for the stuff I sneek to them because I can’t resist those sad eyes (sorry—they LOVE sweetcorn so that’s a much loved treat for everybody) None of us can perfectly replicate a wild diet but our guys do get plenty of healthy stuff year round which maybe balances the lean months of a squirrel in the wild. Another advantage of making blocks is for us less than organized, when we look in the freezer and there are three blocks and nine squirrels, we can have fresh homemade blocks in a couple of hours. In my case, I DO need to remember to order vitamins and keep whey protein on hand (note to self: order vitamins!)

[astra]

If one has one or two NRs, using HHBs can be fairly reasonable if one buys vitamins and protein and makes them at home. The recipe is straightforward and the process of making is so simple that even the least kitchen-bound ppl can do it. Buying vits and protein in bulk will last about 5-6 months for one sq (and consequently, about 2-3 months for two sqs and so on).

Squirrels do tend to crumble a lot. So one solution - pick up crumbs and make balls out of them. Works very well.

When ppl rehab dozens and dozens of babies - that's a different story. Commercial block may be cost effective in this situation, and even all the not-so-good fillers can be overlooked because once babies are released, they are off manmade food and on their natural wild diet.

[island rehabber]

The ONLY businesses that care enough to listen are Nick at Fox Valley and Dr E is going to call him to discuss changes to the formula that have given some sqrls issues.

I'm at work so can't post much but I wish the wonderful Dr. E ALL the luck in the world getting anything to happen with Fox Valley via Nick.
Rehabbers have been trying to do exactly that for years and years. Maybe Dr E should try facetiming Nick since she's so beautiful -- no one else has ever gotten through to him. (Sorry, that was sexist but I'm a chick so it's ok:grin3)
Seriously, Nick doesn't believe us or doesn't care anymore. The first debacle with "cement gut" from FV 32/40 was, what, five years ago? and his response was "add more water" ::frustratedx His son and nephew run the company now, I believe. Since Nick's wife died he really just doesn't care. :sad

[SammysMom]

If I had to feed HHBs to all of my overwinters it would cost almost $1000 per month. It would make it impossible for me to rehab the numbers I rehab.
All of my NRs eat HHBs and all of the overwinters get one Wild Bite per day along with their Mazuri blocks.

If one has one or two NRs, using HHBs can be fairly reasonable if one buys vitamins and protein and makes them at home. The recipe is straightforward and the process of making is so simple that even the least kitchen-bound ppl can do it. Buying vits and protein in bulk will last about 5-6 months for one sq (and consequently, about 2-3 months for two sqs and so on).

Squirrels do tend to crumble a lot. So one solution - pick up crumbs and make balls out of them. Works very well.

When ppl rehab dozens and dozens of babies - that's a different story. Commercial block may be cost effective in this situation, and even all the not-so-good fillers can be overlooked because once babies are released, they are off manmade food and on their natural wild diet.

[SophieSquirrel]

If I had to feed HHBs to all of my overwinters it would cost almost $1000 per month. It would make it impossible for me to rehab the numbers I rehab.
All of my NRs eat HHBs and all of the overwinters get one Wild Bite per day along with their Mazuri blocks.

Nothing wrong with that, it's what I have been saying all along. I had an hour long conversation with Dr. E today regarding Buddi's diet. We discussed commercial block diets and one of the specific areas of concern is corn. Oxbow Essentials Rat is one of the few commercials that does not contain corn. Not all of mine will eat it plus Lb for Lb it's almost as expensive as Henry's compared to Mazuri or HT bought in bulk. I think your plan makes sense Sammysmom

[Diggie's Friend]

Clearly what is needed is a block formulated specifically for tree squirrels based upon the forms found in their habitat specific diets, that best support their metabolic rate, which is not corn, wheat, barley, which are well suited to rats and mice that require free feeding to suport their higher metabolic rate. This especially for the adult NR adults.

In such a source the ratio of Ca:P would need to be (2.25:1). Not out of line for the adults, as they have a higher ratio of Ca:P in their bones. Only in juveniles is it needful to support them with a closer ratio at least 2:1. With diets for adults with this ratio it leaves no room to include foods that are like unto the forms these animals consume in the wild that are higher in phosphorus than calcium. In the wild moreover the juveniles consume more greens, not the adults, and then the tender shoots available in the spring; once the leaves mature the calcium they had becomes locked up in the insoluble form of Calcuim oxalate that cannot be utilized to support their bodies with calcium.

[Diggie's Friend]

Presently it is as yet needful to use the available block diet sources for juveniles, and most adults, even so these diets are flawed, they still provide sufficient protein, and nutrients towards getting to get the squirrels fit enough to be released back to whence they came.

[SammysMom]

This is why HHBs were created.

Clearly what is needed is a block formulated specifically for tree squirrels based upon the forms found in their habitat specific diets, that best support their metabolic rate, which is not corn, wheat, barley, which are well suited to rats and mice that require free feeding to suport their higher metabolic rate. This especially for the adult NR adults.

In such a source the ratio of Ca:P would need to be (2.25:1). Not out of line for the adults, as they have a higher ratio of Ca:P in their bones. Only in juveniles is it needful to support them with a closer ratio at least 2:1. With diets for adults with this ratio it leaves no room to include foods that are like unto the forms these animals consume in the wild that are higher in phosphorus than calcium. In the wild moreover the juveniles consume more greens, not the adults, and then the tender shoots available in the spring; once the leaves mature the calcium they had becomes locked up in the insoluble form of Calcuim oxalate that cannot be utilized to support their bodies with calcium.

[SophieSquirrel]

Clearly what is needed is a block formulated specifically for tree squirrels

Here's what I think is really needed - a 33 Lb bag of DRY formulated blocks that doesn't contain corn or soy priced at > $1 / Lb for the rehabber.

The premium HHB's could be used for our beloved NR's.

[stepnstone]

This is why HHBs were created.

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/yes/ok-sign-smiley-emoticon.gif