Babies Dropping Like Flies

[basnellin]

Good morning all. I am writing with a heavy heart this morning looking for possible answers as to what in the world is going on with my babies. I am a wildlife rehabber here in Conway, Sc and have recently taken in 5 baby greys following hurricane Irma. I've had the babies for about 3 weeks now. Two of the 5 are older than the other 3 by about 2 weeks. My two oldest just turned 5 weeks old and have opened their eyes. Upon receiving the babies I rehydrated them with clear pedialyte solution giving them small frequent offerings (about 1/2-1 cc very 30min-1hr for the little guys and about 1cc to the older ones). I offered this solution around the clock for 6 hrs as they were only taking small amounts. as they began taking larger amounts i spaced out offerings by about 2 hours. I did this around the clock for 12 hours then began to alternate feedings with esbilac puppy formula (mixed 2 parts bottled water to 1 part formula). The babies had a wonderful appetite, they were using the bathroom with 0 difficulty (soft stools mustard color), and were growing like little weeds over the next three weeks. Yesterday things took a turn for the worst. My older babies have been taking up to 3cc per feeding and my younger up to 2cc. I feed every 4 hours. I came home from work yesterday to feed the little boogers and my oldest male was in terrible condition. I was shocked bc that morning he ate fine, used the bathroom upon stimulation, he seemed just fine. when i came home he was limp and lethargic and he would occasionally twitch or make large sudden movements. it was breaking my heart bc the only thing i could think was that he looked like he was in pain. I immediately tried to hydrate him and he fought hard lapping up small amounts at a time. I gave him 2cc pedialyte (new pedialye not the same one i had when i got them lol i like to keep emergency supplies on hand). after he took the pedialyte he bounced back, began to try crawling, would actually open his eyes and lift his head. I put him back in their box and when i returned 30 min later he had already passed. right now i keep them in a box with tall sides, i keep the top of the box open for fresh air since the sides are tall enough that they cant get out. i lay fleece blankets in the bottom and i keep half of the box on a heating pad on med heat (the box is kinda thick so l compensate by using a higher setting) generally they all prefer the heated side over the cooler side. After that occured I immediately began to hydrate all babies by adding additional bottled water to their formula and supplementing pedialyte between feedings by at least an hour. When I woke up this morning another baby had passed. he showed no symptoms, had great appeitie at last feeding and voided. Is this bc of something i am doing wrong? could there be a sickness spreading? I worry that when i get home today there could be no more babies :( this morning the remaining three ate their diluted milk with great appetite. they have all voided and are resting comfortably in their box. someone please advise. Ive never had two babies pass in a 24hr period. and i am extremely worried for these little guys. i will post photos when i get home this afternoon. so that you can asses their size, etc. any advise is much appreciated.

[island rehabber]

basnellin,this is SO sad....I am very sorry for your loss of these babies.

One thing leaps out at me from your description of an otherwise very normal bunch of baby squirrels: the soft stools, mustard color.
Did this continue, and is this the normal consistency and color of their poop?

[Nancy in New York]

Just a couple of questions.
Do you have them in a cardboard box?
If so, please move them out, it causes dehydration
by sucking the moisture out.
Just to make extra sure, is this the formula you are feeding.
The powdered puppy esbilac with the third ingredient saying
dried whey protein?
There seems to be something going around with little ones
having nasal congestion, either with clear snot, or with yellowish
snot. I'm sure you would have mentioned this if this were the case.

What are the weights on your babies.
I'm concerned with the amount of formula they are getting,
but without knowing their weights, this seems like a small amount
for 2 eyes opened babies.

" My older babies have been taking up to 3cc per feeding and my younger up to 2cc."
I feed every 4 hours.

IF you feed round the clock, these older babies are only getting 18 cc's daily, correct?

I'm so sorry for your loss.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VTCXht8/0/d17c683d/O/i-VTCXht8.jpg

[HRT4SQRLS]

The amount of formula also jumps out to me.

I have 6 hurricane babies. All have open eyes.
One was so small he was named Ghandi. You could count his ribs. He weighed 41g on intake. When I got him he weighed 71g and is STILL very small for an eye open baby. At his small size he is taking much more formula than 3ml. He is about 6-7 weeks old and I don't have a current weight but he is taking over 10cc per feeding.

3cc sounds way to little for eye opened babies.

Sorry for your loss. :(

[basnellin]

I do have them in a cardboard box. Ive never had an issue with cardboard until now apparently. however I will make that adjustment to a plastic bin ASAP. and I agree that my older babies are not taking enough formula. I use the esbilac liquid formula diluted with bottled water, I was unable to find powder when I got the little guys and they took the liquid great. I was worried that changing the diet to a different form may cause GI issues. But if that is not the case then I will change to powder. the soft stools have continued the same color and consistency since I got them. I figured with them taking liquid formula that it would make them have softer stool. What is everyone thinking? should i continue with hydration/change habitat/change to powder formula? I will provide weights on babies with pics soon.

[Nancy in New York]

I do have them in a cardboard box. Ive never had an issue with cardboard until now apparently. however I will make that adjustment to a plastic bin ASAP. and I agree that my older babies are not taking enough formula. I use the esbilac liquid formula diluted with bottled water, I was unable to find powder when I got the little guys and they took the liquid great. I was worried that changing the diet to a different form may cause GI issues. But if that is not the case then I will change to powder. the soft stools have continued the same color and consistency since I got them. I figured with them taking liquid formula that it would make them have softer stool. What is everyone thinking? should i continue with hydration/change habitat/change to powder formula? I will provide weights on babies with pics soon.

The liquid formula does cause problems with digestion/diarrhea.
I would do all of the above.
Change their habitat, change their formula and continue with hydration,
of warm water with a touch of honey for taste.

The deep plastic bins are much better. Put lots of fleece in and the heating
pad under set on low.
Do you have other animals? I'm only asking because if the bin is deep enough
I leave the top off for better air circulation. BUT I have no other animals so there is
no concern with leaving the top off.
I make sure the bin is deep enough, and the fleece isn't piled too high for them
to crawl out.

EDIT: When switching to the dried puppy Esbilac make sure that you use HOT water.
Whisk it good and let it set in the refrig for several hours whisking occassionally so that
it all dissolves.
You can actually make up larger batches, let it sit like mentioned above, and then freeze it
in ice cube trays or small containers.

[UDoWhat]

I'm sorry to hear that you're having this trouble. It sounds an awful lot like what many rehabilitators on the East Coast from South Carolina to Maine and other states experienced in 2008. The babies would come in growing normally, looking great, eating great, we would have had them for weeks, and then we find them in their bins and cages lethargic and dying. I still have many emails from rehabilitators working together who were trying to figure this out.

Through necropsies and lab tests it was determined that it was a deadly mycotoxin. It spread like wild fire and did exactly what you described. It was treated with an antibiotic. It was extremely resistant to most antibiotics. It was thought to have been connected somehow to all the rain we had had that spring. I would have to look at my notes to see exactly what the cultures and sensitivities recommended. But I am afraid that doesn't mean that the same antibiotic will work in this case. I believe the antibiotic was amikacin. I will have to check my notes to be sure. The Center where I volunteered lost all but 11 of the 400 baby squirrels that they took in. And the next year there were only about 20 squirrels that came into the center. The problem was it had about a three week incubation period. Even at the biggest centers it would be hard to quarantine baby squirrels coming in for three weeks. It was heartbreaking.:Love_Icon

I am at work now but when I go home this evening I will look to see what I can find and post if I find anything that I think might help. I do hate do you think this could be a mycotoxin.

[basnellin]

oh my, this is not good news for I have an adult flyer that is a non release due to amputation. if this is the case can this be spread to her?!?!?!?! im really freaking out now bc she my baby! and i would just die if anything happened to her. where can i find this antibiotic? my vets office? and how would i adjust it for weight? i understand you are at work so i will wait patiently for your response. also while im waiting for the formula to set in the fridge/dissolve for a few hours should i only give the water with honey and d/c the liquid completely? will they be ok to wait for a feeding that long? also i do not have other pets. i appreciate everyones time who has looked at and responded to my thread. you all have no idea how much help you all are!!

[TubeDriver]

I don’t not believe it is contagious in the normal sense, it is often found in food like acorns and ingested. However, you should control humidity and lot allow it to get too high (over 45-50%) to inhibite fungus colony growth.

Just to be sure, I would discard any existing formula, suppliments etc and start fresh. POWDERED esbilac puppy formula, Fox Valley 20/50 are often used (I like a 50/50 mix of esbilac and 20/50. Do an extra heavy duty cleaning of other supplies like syringes, mixing bottles, water bottles, bowls etc.

[UDoWhat]

I would not give them honey water. It does not have any electrolytes. These babies get severely dehydrated in no time and they need electrolytes to be able to stabilize the dehydration.
Don't panic yet. I'm not sure this is what you are dealing with but if you continue to lose babies in the same way I would try to have necropsies and culture and sensitivities done on anything that might be found so you will know how to treat this.

I would remove the flyer until you are sure what you were dealing with. Better to be safe than sorry. Talk later.

[Mel1959]

I think if your babies are due for a feeding, there's no reason to hold them off while the formula sets. Leaving it to set for a few hours is ideal, but not mandatory. Just make sure it is mixed really well before pulling it up in the syringe. Liquid formula causes loose bowels.

I got some Irma babies and we have been battling clear nasal discharge, as well as exposure to coccidia. Who knows what the wind from a hurricane whips around and brings in from all parts of its previous path! Be on the lookout for any other changes.

[basnellin]

thank you all for your responses. i will continue to hydrate with pedialyte, change habitat and clean everything thoroughly, and change to better suiting formula. i appreciate everyones time and will continue to update you all on their progress

[Nancy in New York]

thank you all for your responses. i will continue to hydrate with pedialyte, change habitat and clean everything thoroughly, and change to better suiting formula. i appreciate everyones time and will continue to update you all on their progress

Do your babies appear dehydrated?
Have you done the pinch test to see if their skin stays tented?
If not, I would just offer water in between with a touch of honey for taste.
Electrolytes are lost through vomiting, sweat and diarrhea.
Do NOT keep them on pedialyte for more than 24-48
hours.
Remember Esbilac also contains electrolytes, as many foods do.

[basnellin]

I did the pinch test this morning and the oldest baby appears to be fine. the two younger ones do appear a little dehydrated bc their skin stays tented for more than 2 sec

[Nancy in New York]

I did the pinch test this morning and the oldest baby appears to be fine. the two younger ones do appear a little dehydrated bc their skin stays tented for more than 2 sec

Then I would give the ones who tents a couple of feedings of Pedialyte in between the formula feedings.
The oldest baby you can just do some plain water or add a touch of honey for taste.
I'm only suggesting this since they were in cardboard box.
After the switch it probably won't be necessary, but
watch for dehydration anyway for a while with the pinch test. :thumbsup

Also if you do have other animals and need a top on the bin, remember to put TONS of holes in the top.
Actually a member did a bin with a cut our hole with hardware cloth over. Let me find the photo and
I will post it.

[Nancy in New York]

Here's the bin I was talking about.
This is a little on the shallow side but her little one
had back end paralysis for a while.
See how the top is cut and the hardware cloth attached?
This way you don't need to drill holes and you can hang
little toys from the top.

294024294023

[basnellin]

THANK YOU NANCY IN NEW YORK. I WILL KEEP AN EYE ON THE HYDRATION SITUATION. I HOPE THAT IS ALL THIS IS. AND I GOT THE PICS. THEY ARE VERY HELPFUL! WOW I NEVER KNEW THAT CARDBOARD COULD DO SO MUCH DAMAGE TO THESE LITTLE GUYS. POOR LITTLE FELLAS. HOW MANY CC DO YOU RECCOMEND AT EACH HYDRATION SESSION?

[Nancy in New York]

THANK YOU NANCY IN NEW YORK. I WILL KEEP AN EYE ON THE HYDRATION SITUATION. I HOPE THAT IS ALL THIS IS. AND I GOT THE PICS. THEY ARE VERY HELPFUL! WOW I NEVER KNEW THAT CARDBOARD COULD DO SO MUCH DAMAGE TO THESE LITTLE GUYS. POOR LITTLE FELLAS. HOW MANY CC DO YOU RECCOMEND AT EACH HYDRATION SESSION?

I would give them what normally give them at a feeding.
5-7% of their body weight is fine, or less.
The hydration won't stick with them like formula, but if you
see a decrease in their formula intake at feeding time than drop the hydration back.
These little ones may have more problems than just the cardboard.
We need to get their formula intake up as well.
Fingers crossed those are the only problems. :hug

[basnellin]

The remaining babies seem to be doing ok for now. im having trouble trying to upload my pictures but im working on resolving that issue. ive set them up in a plastic storage bin with blankets and the heating pad under on low setting. they took hydration fluid really good. so im hoping for the best.

[island rehabber]

basnellin, believe it or not this was the first chance since this morning that I have had to check in on TSB -- I'm so sorry I dropped the ball but you have TSB's best and brightest helping you here, anyway. What I was concerned about with the mustardy mushy poops was,......coccidia. It is present in all squirrels' bodies but raises its ugly, stinky head when they are stressed or otherwise compromised -- like losing their mom in a hurricane! Coccidia must be treated with either baycox, or most recently Ponazuril-- very effective. Coccidia is also highly contagious. Poops will be yellow-mustard in color, mushy, and with a sickeningly sweet odor. Hoping that's not what they've got.

[Nancy in New York]

Just rereading your thread again.
I think your babies are starving.
You are feeding them liquid esbilac and diluting it with 1 part liquid to 2 parts water, correct?
We need to get these little ones back on track slowly.
We are here for you.
Let us know when you're home and please post some pictures so we
can see what they look like, ok?


I use the esbilac liquid formula diluted with bottled water, I was unable to find powder when I got the little guys and they took the liquid great. .


. I offered this solution around the clock for 6 hrs as they were only taking small amounts. as they began taking larger amounts i spaced out offerings by about 2 hours. I did this around the clock for 12 hours then began to alternate feedings with esbilac puppy formula (mixed 2 parts bottled water to 1 part formula). The babies had a wonderful appetite, they were using the bathroom with 0 difficulty (soft stools mustard color), and were growing like little weeds over the next three weeks.

[UDoWhat]

They can stay on the Pedialyte for up to 3-4 days according to the NWRA and IWRC protocol written by Dr. Erica Miller. So don't be worried if you need to hydrate a little longer with Pedialyte. It is the salt in Pedialyte that is the electrolyte.

Just a reminder about too much sugar. Many people do not realize that sugar can cause diarrhea by drawing water into the intestine increasing the risk of dehydration. It is such a fine balance. Too much sugar, not enough salt, too much salt ..... it can make you crazy. :grin2

When I get off work this evening I will go home and look for the emails and necropsy reports to see exactly what mycos that we were dealing with at that time. I'm hoping that your experience will not be like what happened a few years back. :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

Here's another experts take on hydration, Pedialyte, etc.
No need to read this now, but just wanted to give another opinion.

I think your babies are starving from lack of nutrition.
You are feeding liquid formula and diluting it by 1 part liquid formula to 2 parts water.


This is from Chickenlegs: OK so here it is. The babies do have diarrhea so might need some electrolytes but here's the info that was a TSB original from years back sent to me by Sissy a couple of years ago

"Ive been doing this a long time and have found out some things by necropsy, and some by a brilliant DVM with a double masters in nutrition. She has always picked my methods apart, and then told me "why". Today recovering dehydrated and emaciated animals is one of my specialties along with wounds and bone breaks. Ive got this down and I hope my experiences will help you to master these methods.
In small mammals as small as squirrels, you are always better off to re hydrate with glucose or sugar water than pedialyte when the animal is dehydrated from lack of fluids or milk. Theres a few reasons, but mainly the preservatives that are used in the commercial electrolytes for human consumption. In a human sized kidney, or even a large breed puppy, not a big deal, but in the kidneys of a tiny squirrel, you have these little filters the size of half to a whole pea, and they are battling to keep the impurities out of the blood which is now thickened and concentrated, in a body that cannot afford to flush them out because it cant afford the fluid loss to make urine. The kidneys are already in trouble. Those chemicals are immediately caught in the kidneys because the body cannot use them for anything. Pedialyte often contains dye and flavoring which should never be used, but the preservatives alone can cause problems you wont even see. In cross section
necropsies of kidneys for other rehabbers, I have found crystals, inflammation and blockage from Pedialyte and Gatorade. The Gatorade is just insane. I wont even drink it after seeing how the kidneys are affected. I have necropsied HUGE BLUE Gatorade kidneys! When the body is dehydrated and the kidneys are that small, we must only give the system things it can break down and use. There is no room for added chemicals. We have to stay as pure as possible.

I think most folks make their own rehydration fluid so skip that part unless pedialyte is part of the arsenal


In dehydration from starvation, just go with 1 tsp per cup warm water, infant glucose water or dextrose and water. The body can use that sugar. It makes a world of difference in stabilizing your baby and getting them back up. You can feed only the sugar water or glucose for a day, day and a half, and start adding your protein (formula) to the glucose or sugar water in reduced amounts, keeping them on the sugar until they rehydrate and their weight is back up. The BONUS to this is that they burn the sugar as energy which causes the body to store the protein, which brings weight up more effectively. The ADDED BONUS is that you can mix your protein and your rehydration fluid. You CANNOT MIX ELECTROLYTES AND PROTEIN. You cancel them both out by doing this. You will starve your baby of all help by doing this. Never never mix.
In an animal dehydrated from starvation or lack of fluids, they havent lost electrolytes as they would have from a case of diarrhea, to which an electrolyte can be used. Since sugar can actually cause diarrhea (which it will NOT do in a dehydrated animal), in an animal dehydrated from diarrhea, I recommend unflavored Pedialyte given BETWEEN protein feedings, or alternate with a starch like rice cereal water. I still use the infant glucose for this, and if I have to give an electrolyte, I use reconstituted mammal electrolyte powder.
Often protein can cause diarrhea if its an alien source, so pulling the protein and adding a starch will often do the trick. Remember, starch converts to sugar. Starch actually IS a long chain sugar, so no need to ad sugar when using a starch. Its amazing how the two are so similarly used by the body, but produce the opposite result in therapy!
Anyway, I hope something here helps!
Annette
Wild Heart Ranch

This may not help at all but those babies really are skinny--starving. Get better babies :Love_Icon

[basnellin]

I am extremely sad to inform you all that the final three babies have passed. I am so sad for the little fellas. If this is infact coccidia do i need to be concerned that my flyer will contract this illness? she is kept in a separate room than the babies and has never been around them, however that doesnt meal that i havent handled the babies and then handled her.

[Nancy in New York]

I am extremely sad to inform you all that the final three babies have passed. I am so sad for the little fellas. If this is infact coccidia do i need to be concerned that my flyer will contract this illness? she is kept in a separate room than the babies and has never been around them, however that doesnt meal that i havent handled the babies and then handled her.

I am so terribly sad and sorry to read this.
I know this is hard.
Would it be possible to get a weight on these babies.
I honestly think they were underfed, and if that's the
case that alone may be your answer there. If they are
a good weight we can rule that out.
It does seem strange that all of them would die roughly
at the same time, so the weight may not be the answer.
I am SO very sorry for your loss.

[basnellin]

the last two remaining are 1.6oz and 1.5oz. the bigger one just opened eyes two days ago. the other about 4wks old

[basnellin]

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[basnellin]

the one on the right is 1.6oz and has eyes open. the other is closest to can eyes closed

[Nancy in New York]

the last two remaining are 1.6oz and 1.5oz. the bigger one just opened eyes two days ago. the other about 4wks old

The ones that weigh 1.6 and 1.5 are roughly what age?
Do you have a weight on the eyes open one?
Sorry to ask this, just trying to put an age with the weight.

Edit: OK I see you posted photos.

[basnellin]

the photo of the single baby next to the can is the one with eyes open weighs 1.6oz. approx. 5 weeks
the other is in the pic with two babies but is the one closest to the can. he is about 3-4 weeks old and weighs 1.40z

[basnellin]

the little one is literally hanging on by a thread at the moment. im giving him hydration every 15-30min right now and monitoring him.

[Nancy in New York]

the one on the right is 1.6oz and has eyes open. the other is closest to can eyes closed

OK so the one that is 1.6 oz is roughly 45 grams.
That is VERY small for an eyes opened baby.
When you were feeding the liquid esbilac you diluted it with
2 parts water. It did NOT need to be diluted.
They were getting mostly water and not much nourishment.
I'm sorry, I'm just telling you this for the next time.
You need to feed babies by weight, and make sure
the formula is the correct.
I'm thinking these babies probably passed from starvation. :(

[basnellin]

i was only feeding what they would take. their little bellies would be gorged and full after mealtime. that just doesnt make sense to me that they would all starve to death within 24hrs of one another. im def not saying that my feeding technique helped the situation. im just wondering if there was another reason for their lack of appetite and diarrhea. along with the obvious malnutrition i can understand why theyre not doing too well. the little one is hanging on by a thread. what do you suggest for keeping him alive.

[basnellin]

should i feed him? i seriously thought i was overfeeding bc their little bellies would get so full and they would refuse any more, the soft stool i thought was due to liquid diet/overfeeding. which i thought could have led to dehydration/death. so now im confused.

[island rehabber]

I would give the remaining baby a drop of Kaeopectate every 8 hrs, JUST to stop the diarrhea so that maybe some nutrition will stay in his little body. Have you gotten the Esbilac powder at this piint? If not, I guess you'll have to use the canned, but NOT diluted. The idea is to at least get nutrition into his cells so that he can survive.....Kaopectate does not cure anything, just stops the runs for a few hours.

Just asking: where did you get the information that told you to dilute the Liquid Esbilac? I'd like to prevent any other well-meaning rescuer from making the same mistake.

[Nancy in New York]

i was only feeding what they would take. their little bellies would be gorged and full after mealtime. that just doesnt make sense to me that they would all starve to death within 24hrs of one another. im def not saying that my feeding technique helped the situation. im just wondering if there was another reason for their lack of appetite and diarrhea. along with the obvious malnutrition i can understand why theyre not doing too well. the little one is hanging on by a thread. what do you suggest for keeping him alive.

Oh I'm not saying you should have fed more.
We feed by the weight of the squirrel in grams, typically
5-7% of their body weight.
The problem was using water in the liquid esbilac.
The first ingredient in the liquid Esbilac is WATER.

They were surviving on mostly water is my point.

We never dilute liquid Esbilac, but we also never use it.
I agree it's probably not likely that all of them would die from starvation alone.
Keep him warm, he needs all the energy he can get.
Do you have the correct formula now?

If you have the powdered Esbilac, how did you mix it?

[basnellin]

im giving small frequent feedings of the liquid. unable to get the powder before the feed and grain closed for the night. he is taking food well. will give kaeopectate

[Nancy in New York]

im giving small frequent feedings of the liquid. unable to get the powder before the feed and grain closed for the night. he is taking food well. will give kaeopectate

Is this straight from the can, no water added?
IF so, since they have always been taking 1 part liquid Esbilac to 2 parts water, I would
do one part liquid Esbilac to one part water. We never recommend doing this, you know that now,
but we don't want to shock this little ones system when he is in such dire straits.
Also make sure to do small feedings.
How much are you allowing this little one to eat?
Is this the one that weighs ~ 40 grams?

[basnellin]

he is 42.8 grams. I have given him 0.5cc of regular esbilac liquid, the remaining that i will give him will be diluted as you suggested.

[Nancy in New York]

he is 42.8 grams. I have given him 0.5cc of regular esbilac liquid, the remaining that i will give him will be diluted as you suggested.

OK sounds good. We will keep it diluted for a little while, we just
don't want to shock his system. We'll see how he does on that for a while.
Maybe tomorrow around mid day or late afternoon we can get him off
the diluted esbilac.
FYI at 42 grams the minimum that a squirrel should get is 2.1cc's per feeding.
Don't rush this either but do them closer than every 4 hours, I would suggest
every 2 hours if you can, and if they are eating only .5
Is this what they were eating before?
Prior to this feeding, when was their last feeding?

[basnellin]

hes had 2cc 1 diluted and 1 not since we decided this is malnutrition. i was thinking of offering about 1cc every hour around the clock tonight. is this a bad idea? also i will need to continue stimulating him to urinate, right? i dont want to cause more dehydration but i dont want to pop his little bladder either.

[basnellin]

what do you think about petAg brand vs esbilac? are they the same manufacturer? that is what is immediately available in powder form where i am.

[Nancy in New York]

what do you think about petAg brand vs esbilac? are they the same manufacturer? that is what is immediately available in powder form where i am.

NO absolutely not, glad you checked. It sits like cement and we have seen MANY deaths from that crap.
Petag makes Esbilac just make sure it's the right one, and NOT the PetLac

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VTCXht8/0/d17c683d/O/i-VTCXht8.jpghttps://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VpVv8FQ/0/68fb4e8c/M/i-VpVv8FQ-M.jpg

[basnellin]

ok. thank you for the information. the local feed and grain opens at 7:30 and they carry the actual esbilac. so i will be there first thing to get some. what is the best way to aclimate him to the diet change? also should i continue to stimulate him to urinate etc? not trying to cause more dehydration

[cava]

Yes, continue to stimulate him to urinate. Make life easier for him. Especially because you are upping your feeds and hydration, he'll have to go more often. By the time urine is in the bladder, the body is done with it and it needs to be eliminated, so you're helping by stimulating.

[Nancy in New York]

ok. thank you for the information. the local feed and grain opens at 7:30 and they carry the actual esbilac. so i will be there first thing to get some. what is the best way to aclimate him to the diet change? also should i continue to stimulate him to urinate etc? not trying to cause more dehydration

I will help you through the diet change tomorrow, ok?
BUT after you get it home, make it at 1 part powder to 3 parts HOT water.
Let that sit for a few hours in the refrig, whisking periodically to get it all dissolved.
Continue with the liquid as you are right now.
I will explain the rest tomorrow, ok?

[basnellin]

Thank you so much! i will touch base tomorrow and we can pick up from there. i will continue to stimulate him also.

[Nancy in New York]

Thank you so much! i will touch base tomorrow and we can pick up from there. i will continue to stimulate him also.

Sounds like a plan.
Kiss that little monkey for ALL of us! :blowkiss

[basnellin]

i sure will. he will be getting spoiled all night long lol lots of love and kisses for this little dude

[UDoWhat]

[QUOTE=Nancy in New York;1237980]Here's another experts take on hydration, Pedialyte, etc.
No need to read this now, but just wanted to give another opinion. QUOTE]

I respectfully point out that the woman that wrote this article is not a veterinarian. I have spoken to Dr. Miller personally about this article and she shook her head and said whoever wrote this is really off base. She was surprised that we were using this as a means to tell people about rehydration. I also showed my own Vet this very article. His response was mostly the same as Dr. Miller's. He also told me that too much sugar causes mucus in the stool. For me, I would take the word of the two veterinarians, especially the Wildlife Vet who wrote the protocol for our guiding organizations and the protocol written in the Rehabilitator's Bible, "Wild Baby Mammal, the first 48 hours and beyond". A book that is quoted on TSB all the time. So I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

I respectfully point out that the woman that wrote this article is not a veterinarian. I have spoken to Dr. Miller personally about this article and she shook her head and said whoever wrote this is really off base. She was surprised that we were using this as a means to tell people about rehydration. I also showed my own Vet this very article. His response was mostly the same as Dr. Miller's. He also told me that too much sugar causes mucus in the stool. For me, I would take the word of the two veterinarians, especially the Wildlife Vet who wrote the protocol for our guiding organizations and the protocol written in the Rehabilitator's Bible, "Wild Baby Mammal, the first 48 hours and beyond". A book that is quoted on TSB all the time. So I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :Love_Icon

Yes I quote that book all of the time.
It is the "Bible" for dosing.

No Annette is not a vet, but if you read what she wrote, "Ive been doing this a long time and have found out some things by necropsy, and some by a brilliant DVM with a double masters in nutrition. She has always picked my methods apart, and then told me "why". Today recovering dehydrated and emaciated animals is one of my specialties

Dr. Miller also wrote that you can use gatorade or other sports drinks for rehydraion,
and that you can combine pedialyte and formula.

Yes we will agree to disagree.

[UDoWhat]

hes had 2cc 1 diluted and 1 not since we decided this is malnutrition. i was thinking of offering about 1cc every hour around the clock tonight. is this a bad idea? also i will need to continue stimulating him to urinate, right? i dont want to cause more dehydration but i dont want to pop his little bladder either.

I have to agree this is most likely malnutrition and not a myco. At first my heart sank because it seemed like what many of use had experienced with the myco. But with you providing more information about their formula it seems like this could be malnourishment. You are getting good information regarding the correct formula to use. You will get this straightened out. Good luck with your little ones:Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

hes had 2cc 1 diluted and 1 not since we decided this is malnutrition. i was thinking of offering about 1cc every hour around the clock tonight. is this a bad idea? also i will need to continue stimulating him to urinate, right? i dont want to cause more dehydration but i dont want to pop his little bladder either.

I wouldn't do this every hour round the clock.
Give his little tummy time to "digest" all this.
If he is taking 2 cc's every 3 hours that's fine.
I would NOT go above 2 cc's for now.

[UDoWhat]

I wouldn't do this every hour round the clock.
Give his little tummy time to "digest" all this.
If he is taking 2 cc's every 3 hours that's fine.
I would NOT go above 2 cc's for now.


Great advice . :great Most malnutrition cases should be fed on the lower side of what you would normally start out a healthy baby (5-7 % of body weight) and slowly increase as you see the babies are tolerating the formula. I would watch for weight gain in a few days. With the transition to full strength formula you may not see much weight gain until fully transitioned. Giving their "little tummy time to digest all this ", as suggested above, is essential advice. Thank you!

Also, just an FYI, Dr Miller, says that "Gatorade can be used in an emergency if it is the only thing available and not long term" and that " it should be cut by 50% due to too much sugar." The authors of WMB are to be credited with the suggestion of transitioning babies by mixing formula and LRS. I shouldn't credit this to Dr. Miller, if I did. Sorry, for that confusion. I would not suggest, like others here at TSB, mixing formula and LRS or any other electrolyte solution because it will curdle the formula and it is just not necessary. IMO, I would not want to give compromised babies curdled formula ..... Just doesn't seem right to me.

I am sorry you lost the third little baby.:grouphug With the formula change you will begin to see improvements. Things will turn around now. :Love_Icon:Love_Icon:Love_Icon There are many different opinions here at TSB . In the end, we usually do what works for ourselves and our babies. We respect each other's differences and opinions and "agree to disagree" at times. :Love_Icon

[basnellin]

Today he's doing so much better. I've been giving feedings every few hours about 1-2cc. It breaks my heart for the others :( however I have learned a lot from everyone over the last 24hrs to help me prevent this from happening in the future. I appreciate everyone's time and responses

[Nancy in New York]

Today he's doing so much better. I've been giving feedings every few hours about 1-2cc. It breaks my heart for the others :( however I have learned a lot from everyone over the last 24hrs to help me prevent this from happening in the future. I appreciate everyone's time and responses

Now this update just put a huge smile on my face.
Yeah, don't go above the 2 cc's for now.
Can you see a milk line on the tummy?
Perhaps he has too much fur to view it.

If you get the powdered puppy formula today, let
us know and we will help with the transition.

Keep up the great work, thanks for the update,
and THANK YOU for taking the suggestions so gracefully.:grouphug

[basnellin]

I'm headed to get the powder formula now. And I will be making an investment in the rehab bible. I was so worried that they weren't getting enough hydration that I've over done it. And now I'm really sad and pretty disappointed in myself. But I'll study that book front to back and will never let this happen again. I love animals and want to see them healthy happy and released. So getting the information about the malnourishment has been really unsettling for me. You have all been awesome with such fast responses. TSB has a wonderful group of advisors

[UDoWhat]

I'm headed to get the powder formula now. And I will be making an investment in the rehab bible. I was so worried that they weren't getting enough hydration that I've over done it. And now I'm really sad and pretty disappointed in myself. But I'll study that book front to back and will never let this happen again. I love animals and want to see them healthy happy and released. So getting the information about the malnourishment has been really unsettling for me. You have all been awesome with such fast responses. TSB has a wonderful group of advisors

Your gracious spirt and love for your babies is what has made the difference. Please know we all make mistakes with our babies. Just so glad to see your update. :w00t You were doing the best you knew how to do with the information you had. That is all you could do. But now you have the best advice you can get. Following that advice will turn these babies around. :Love_Icon

Please share this information about the correct formula with others that you know are not using the correct formula. It will help save many babies. That is what we are trying to do here. .... Help save as many babies as we can. :Love_Icon

[basnellin]

I will pass this info on to others for sure. I hope to someday be as knowledgeable as all of you. I have the powdered formula. I will mix 1 part powder to 2 parts hot water, correct?

[Nancy in New York]

I will pass this info on to others for sure. I hope to someday be as knowledgeable as all of you. I have the powdered formula. I will mix 1 part powder to 2 parts hot water, correct?
No, for now, mix it 1 part formula to 3 parts HOT water.
We will switch that soon.

We were talking about this case and a member said that since he is already on Esbilac
transitioning to straight powder can be done more quickly. The only thing it should do
to them is make them begin to digest their food faster than with the liquid because of the whey protein
isolate in the powder vs. the casein in the liquid, and that's a good thing.

[basnellin]

Ok. Thank you. I am mixing a batch now

[basnellin]

Can I give him some as soon as I make it or is it required to set in the fridge

[UDoWhat]

I usually let my formula sit a while. I try not to make it a practice but I have feed it newly mixed on occasion to not compromised babies . Others will chime with their thoughts and guidance. Not sure how cautious NIN wants you to be with these babies. :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

OK so after that is all dissolved this is how you are going to feed.
This was a collective effort coming up with this, so bare with me.
Ask any questions you may have.

1.You take 1 part of your liquid esbilac and add 1/2 part water to that.
Example: If you use one Tablesoon liquid esbilac, add 1/2 Tablespoon water.
2.You already did the Powdered puppy formula at 1 part dry powder to 3 parts hot water.

NOW take 3/4 of the #1.
and add 1/4 of the #2.

Feed small amounts every 2 - 2.5 hours.
Do not go over 2 cc's per feeding, preferably keeping it to 1.5 or there about. (IF you are feeding at 2 - 2.5 hours)
if you are feeding every 3-3.5 hours then up the amount a little but NOT over 2 cc's. at each feeding.
If he only wants to take 1cc fine.
You cannot force a starving baby to eat, go drop by drop if you need to
See how well he handles this and how the poop is.

Tomorrow go to 1 part powdered puppy esbilac to 2 parts hot water.
Add 1 part liquid formula with NO added water.
Feed that for one day.

Then go to full strength powdered puppy esbilac of 1 part powder to 2 parts HOT water.
Skipping the liquid esbilac.
Baby needs calories.

Edit: How long did you let the powdered formula sit?
Did you whisk it periodically?

[basnellin]

I just mixed it. I whisked it until it was completely dissolved into the hot water. It is in the fridge for about 30 min

[Nancy in New York]

I just mixed it. I whisked it until it was completely dissolved into the hot water. It is in the fridge for about 30 min

IF your baby is due a feeding now,
feed him what you were through the night and start the transition at the next feeding, ok?
I just want to make sure that this is completely dissolved since he's so compromised, ok?
Remember to whisk it occassinally while in the refrig, because it settles.
When you start using it, whisk it or shake it really well everytime, and draw up from the bottom to
avoid the bubbles at the top.

[basnellin]

Ok. He is due a feeding so I will give the suggested and start the transition next feeding. I agree. I don't want to compromise him anymore. Your directions are very thorough and easy to understand. Thank you

[basnellin]

294114294115294116

[basnellin]

id say he looks 10x better today with more energy

[Nancy in New York]

294114294115294116

OK that isn't too bad. How was his poop before?
You mentioned that when you first got them, it was soft and golden.

Just a word of caution. It looks like you are outside.
IF that's the case, please keep him covered in warm fleece, we need him
to conserve every ounce of energy he has.
You are doing great.
It wouldn't hurt to give him a couple of hydration feedings in between the formula.
Just do it every other feeding, not after every feeding, ok?
IF he doesn't take as much formula after a hydration feeding then we will cut back on hydrating.

[basnellin]

that sounds like a plan. i have terrible light in my house and wanted to make sure i got good pics for you guys. hes currently in a plastic bin with his heating pad on low under neath it. 294117294118

[basnellin]

i plan to revise the top of the box to be more like the pic you showed me. i am so sleep deprived lol im going to take a nap. and will check back in soon

[Nancy in New York]

i plan to revise the top of the box to be more like the pic you showed me. i am so sleep deprived lol im going to take a nap. and will check back in soon

Looks good. If you have any fleece nightgowns or anything like that,
put some in his container. They love to burrow under and get all cozy,
and we recommend things without loops since their nails can catch easily.
Also a small stuffie would give him comfort too.
PM me your address and I will send you some fleece, I'm safe, promise. :)
Go, get some rest. We'll be here.

[BCChins]

Nancy is very safe and by a stuffie she means a small no removable parts stuffed animal to cuddle with.
Hang in there things are looking up for you two. :hug

[basnellin]

thanks everyone! i have a little girraffe that ive put in there with him. and i was using fleece in there but when they all started to pass i thought they were sick so i threw all their bedding away bc i didnt want anything to be passed to him. i am glad to know that is not the case now. also i never did answer your question NIN about his poop. it was much lighter in color before and more watery. now that we have cut most of the extra hydration they seem to be getting more firmness to them slowly.

[basnellin]

would it be acceptable for me to buy him a fleece blanket tonight while im at walmart and put in there with him?

[Nancy in New York]

would it be acceptable for me to buy him a fleece blanket tonight while im at walmart and put in there with him?

ABSOLUTELY cut it up and he will LOVE it.
They have some great baby blankets as well. :w00t
I'm going to a support group for my blanket addiction. :hidechair :)

[cava]

No! We all benefit from your blanket addiction.

[BCChins]

Just wash it first. Sometime fabric is pretreated.

[basnellin]

hahaha blanket addiction! :dance:serene
and baby blankets, thats brilliant. i hadent even thought of those!
and to update everyone, we have officially named him marcus since he is the lone survivor. he just took his first feeding of the transition mix and loved it. his appetite is increasing also.

[basnellin]

NIN, how did you construct the box lid without drilling any holes or using nails/screws?

[lennysmom]

hahaha blanket addiction! :dance:serene
and baby blankets, thats brilliant. i hadent even thought of those!
and to update everyone, we have officially named him marcus since he is the lone survivor. he just took his first feeding of the transition mix and loved it. his appetite is increasing also.

I'm so happy to read a good update on little Marcus (love the name by the way!) and hear that is appetite is increasing some.:w00t I have been lurking, but keeping up with your thread and am praying for this little one.:Love_Icon:Love_Icon

[basnellin]

also how often do you recommend i should weigh marcus?

[basnellin]

Thank you lennysmom! I appreciate the supportive thoughts and prayers. I owe a huge thanks to everyone here on TSB for their comments and suggestions.

[lennysmom]

also how often do you recommend i should weigh marcus?

When I had a little one that was emaciated like that, I weighed him twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening, always before I fed though.

[basnellin]

sounds good. i will check his weight before his next feeding.

[Nancy in New York]

NIN, how did you construct the box lid without drilling any holes or using nails/screws?

I'm not sure what you mean? :thinking
I never use a lid on my bins since I have no other animals.I keep the top off
for better air circulation. I also keep my stove light on most of the time for additional warmth
with the heating pad under the containers.

Here's what some of the bins look like until they go to their first cage.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2k78JDb/0/c6da17bc/M/i-2k78JDb-M.jpg

And here's what's inside the bins: :Love_Icon:Love_Icon
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qmSgVdX/0/e6af5674/S/i-qmSgVdX-S.jpg....................https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Vg4ZBD9/0/2b8bce69/S/i-Vg4ZBD9-S.jpg

[Nancy in New York]

NIN, how did you construct the box lid without drilling any holes or using nails/screws?

Oh I'm SO sorry basnellin, I had forgotten that I posted a photo of the bins that
lennysmom made/used for her little squirrel. (thanks SammysMom :w00t)
Isn't that a clever idea!
I will direct her to the thread and see if she can help you with this question.

[lennysmom]

Oh I'm SO sorry basnellin, I had forgotten that I posted a photo of the bins that
lennysmom made/used for her little squirrel. (thanks SammysMom :w00t)
Isn't that a clever idea!
I will direct her to the thread and see if she can help you with this question.


NIN, how did you construct the box lid without drilling any holes or using nails/screws?

Thanks Nancy for directing my attention to this question.:w00t My husband took his drill and made the holes in the top and sides, but the top of the bin he made a hole to attach the hardware cloth, he cut a hole in the plastic and then made a frame with wood to go around it that holds the hardware cloth in place. He did have to use screws to fasten in together. I hope that answers your question.

[ques96]

I have used zip ties successfully to attach the hardware cloth to the tote lids as well as the sides when we cut out areas for ventilation. 294174294175

[basnellin]

briliant idea with the zip ties! ill show my husband these and see if he can put something together for me. he's quite the engineer master mind of the family. i weighed marcus this morning before his feeding he weighs 43grams. I have continued with the transition giving him the 2:1 podwer formula with the liquid containing no extra water. he is loving it. he gets so excited at meal time. i have also gotten him set up with some fleece. he gets nice and cozy cuddled up to his giraffe. ill post pics in a little bit for all to see.

[Nancy in New York]

briliant idea with the zip ties! ill show my husband these and see if he can put something together for me. he's quite the engineer master mind of the family. i weighed marcus this morning before his feeding he weighs 43grams. I have continued with the transition giving him the 2:1 podwer formula with the liquid containing no extra water. he is loving it. he gets so excited at meal time. i have also gotten him set up with some fleece. he gets nice and cozy cuddled up to his giraffe. ill post pics in a little bit for all to see.

Fantastic update! :w00t
Oh yes, please post pictures of your little Marcus,
we are anxious to see this little miracle.
Remember to take his weight same time every day, ok?

[Nancy in New York]

Just a quick question. Are you home with the babies
all day long or do you work outside the house.
Just wondering if you would like us to "try" to find a rehabber
that can help, IF you are at work all day.

Hope to get a great update soon.

[basnellin]

294195
Hes so comfy snuggled up to his giraffe

[basnellin]

I do work outside of the home. My job is very flexible and I work two miles away so they dont mind me coming home to feed him every 3 hours or so.

[Nancy in New York]

I do work outside of the home. My job is very flexible and I work two miles away so they dont mind me coming home to feed him every 3 hours or so.

Perfect, you're lucky to have a job and a boss like that! :w00t
Oh I LOVE that photo with little Marcus and his giraffe. :klunk
How's he doing today?
How are his poops?

[cava]

Oh, I'm so glad he's doing better and yes, he looks darling with his stuffie!

[UDoWhat]

Oh I am so glad he is better too. What a darling little buddy. :Love_Icon I love the Giraffe snuggle baby. He looks so precious !:serene

[basnellin]

His poops are brown and starting to get a little more firm but they are still pretty soft. He's pooped 3 times today.

[basnellin]

294241294242

Hello everyone! Just wanted to give an update on little Marcus. He has already started gaining a little bit of weight. He currently weighs 46 grams and is loving his new diet. Hes such a sweet boy! Id like to say a huge thank you to everyone following this thread for all of the prayers and support of this little guy. I will continue to update everyone on his progress.

[Nancy in New York]

294241294242

Hello everyone! Just wanted to give an update on little Marcus. He has already started gaining a little bit of weight. He currently weighs 46 grams and is loving his new diet. Hes such a sweet boy! Id like to say a huge thank you to everyone following this thread for all of the prayers and support of this little guy. I will continue to update everyone on his progress.

Oh I'm so glad we get to see little Marcus with his mom.
He looks great.
Continue with what you are doing and please give us
his weight daily.
How are his poops.
These pictures just put a huge smile on my face.
Keep up the great work!~:w00t:hug

[basnellin]

Today he had his first two normal poops! They're actually solid and not diarrhea finally. His appetite has increased greatly as well. Also I love the powder formula. I made a batch and put it in the ice trays as suggested and it is much more convenient and it doesn't make him look so bloaty after eating it. He seems to be feeling much better with the diet change. I will continue to update you on his weight so that we can make the proper adjustments to his diet. Thanks so much everyone for sticking with us!!

[lennysmom]

Oh I'm thrilled to see another great update on little Marcus!:w00t Gaining weight is wonderful - sounds like he's defiantly on the right track!:dance I'm looking forward to watching that little cutie grow up.:blowkiss Love the pictures too - he is just precious.:Love_Icon:Love_Icon What a blessed little guy he is to have landed in the care of such a diligent mama!:hug

[Nancy in New York]

Today he had his first two normal poops! They're actually solid and not diarrhea finally. His appetite has increased greatly as well. Also I love the powder formula. I made a batch and put it in the ice trays as suggested and it is much more convenient and it doesn't make him look so bloaty after eating it. He seems to be feeling much better with the diet change. I will continue to update you on his weight so that we can make the proper adjustments to his diet. Thanks so much everyone for sticking with us!!

This is a fantastic update!
Thank you for letting us know.
Remember any questions you have, please let us
know. We are here to help you and little Marcus through this.
You are doing beautifully!
Keep up the great work.:w00t

[basnellin]

I'm located in Myrtle Beach, Sc. Is anyone here familiar with any other rehabbers in the area or near by? I would like to meet others to try to build a local support system while I'm learning how to rehab these animals. Just in case there's ever a time where someone can provide something that I may not be able to. I officially feel like you can never be too careful with these little creatures.

[cava]

I just want to say you're doing a great job and followed directions since you got on the board. It's super rewarding when the folks here are willing to help and the help really works. I also look forward to your updated photos. I love the one of you and him. I can see in your eyes how much you just love him.:Love_Icon

[basnellin]

It has been very rewarding. I was so sad when the others passed that it really is rewarding to see him getting better. Even if i can save just one it is worth it. Thank you cava. I do have a few questions. I know it will probably be a while before i need to be concerned by these but i want to ask them while i have them fresh in my mind. A) at what age/when is it suggested that babies no longer need stimulation to use the bathroom? B) when do they begin to make and retain their own body heat and need to be taken off of heating pad?

[cava]

Lots of people stimulate them for as long as they can to monitor output and it keeps the cage cleaner. At 5 weeks or when eyes open, he should be going on his own. Eventually they'll kick your hand away and not allow it.

When his eyes are open and he is in a bigger boy cage, you can still offer a heating pad in the corner under the cage. He is alone and may need heat, especially at night, for longer than a bunch might. I let mine have one until they take to sleeping in the hammocks and hanging cubes and I know they aren't using it anymore.

[basnellin]

Thank you for the information. I will continue to give him heat and stimulation. I will most likely consult everyone on the thread before I take him off of that when that time comes :serene

[basnellin]

Just to update everyone, Marcus is still doing great. I weighed him tonight and he weighs 51.7 grams! My handsome boy is getting big and I am so thankful! He has made the complete transition over to full strength powder formula and he is loving it.

[lennysmom]

Another great update to end the night with a smile!:serene :w00t :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

Another fantastic update!!!!!!!:w00t:bliss:w00t

[BCChins]

Pictures please!!

[basnellin]

oh my goodness! little marcus is opening his eyes!! ill post pics this afternoon!

[Nancy in New York]

oh my goodness! little marcus is opening his eyes!! ill post pics this afternoon!

Still waiting for pictures of little Marcus. :imp :grin2

[basnellin]

294339

[basnellin]

294340

[basnellin]

I tried to upload them from my phone. Are you all able to see them?

[Nancy in New York]

I tried to upload them from my phone. Are you all able to see them?

Oh YES I can~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:klunk:klunk:klunk:klunk:klun k:klunk
These pictures just made my day.
Keep up the fantastic work, you are doing wonderfully!

Edit: How much does little Marcus weigh today?

[Mel1959]

I'm located in Myrtle Beach, Sc. Is anyone here familiar with any other rehabbers in the area or near by? I would like to meet others to try to build a local support system while I'm learning how to rehab these animals. Just in case there's ever a time where someone can provide something that I may not be able to. I officially feel like you can never be too careful with these little creatures.

I know of a couple of members in S. Carolina, but I'm not sure how close you are to them. You could reach out to them by private message if you want to get acquainted. One is Tara and the other is lilidukes. I believe Annalises mom might be another. These are the names they use on the board.

Other more knowledgeable folks, please correct me if I'm wrong. Not everyone posts their state where they are located and I don't have a great memory. :crazy1:crazy1

[basnellin]

OMG NIN!! I just went to feed him and he ate 1cc and when i pulled the syringe back to refill it there was blood!!! IM FREAKING OUT. and he weighs 60 grams today

[CritterMom]

I bet he's teething. Take a bunch of breaths. This is really common. Rub a finger over his gums and see if you can feel little tooth nubs.

[basnellin]

he does have little tooths lol he has bottom and the top have just started to come through. i wanted to switch over to using an elongated nipple over the syringe thinking that might be softer for him. but i cant seem to be able to get a hole in it that will actually let the formula flow out. pressure ends up building up and it pops off. i tried to heat up a 27g needle and poke through and i let it cool before i pulled it out but it still didnt work. ill get an 18g from work and try that. is this even a good idea? or should i not use a nipple tip?
thoughts everyone, please :grin2

[Mel1959]

Nipples are much easier to feed with. Do you have some miracle nipples? The come in a short and long version ad already have the hole in them.

[Nancy in New York]

OMG NIN!! I just went to feed him and he ate 1cc and when i pulled the syringe back to refill it there was blood!!! IM FREAKING OUT. and he weighs 60 grams today

I just answered your pm. Sorry I was out for a while.
I too think this is just teething.
He'll be fine. :hug

[cava]

If you're using the pet ag nipples here's what have done. If you're using a heated needle, use 18-16 g. If you don't have access to that, do you have any suture scissors (curved one side) or little snip scissors? If so, you can cut a tiny X in the center of the end of the nipple. I mean really little. It will let the milk flow out when sucked or pushed, but closes up when not. It should not drip. Test it first to be sure the flow is super slow. The miracle nipple hole is tiny and they get food out of that just fine.

I used pet ag nipples last year ad this year switched to miracle nipple. They're stronger, don't rot like the rubber does on pet ag and have a premade hole so no stress of doing it ourselves.

[Nancy in New York]

Right now I wouldn't try to put a hole in a nipple.
IF you do try, make sure that you squirt it first on your hand.
Many times we get the holes too big causing aspiration.
I will get the fleece out tomorrow, sorry I honestly have been so
busy, I forgot until now, and I will put in some nipples with holes.
Do you need syringes as well. I have plenty.

cava and I were posting at the same time. :)

Edit again. 60 grams! WOW what a fabulous weight gain. Keep up the great work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:w00t

[cava]

Nancy, your idea is better than mine. I hate making holes and it always makes me so nervous. Sending nipples is go great, thank you!

[basnellin]

NO WORRIES NANCY, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND. AND I GREATLY APPRECIATE THE GESTURE. I AM ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF NEEDLES AND SUCH. I HAPPEN TO BE A SURGICAL NURSE FOR A LOCAL OFFICE. WHERE CAN I GET THE MIRACLE NIPPLES? ONLINE/IN STORE? THE ONLY THING I WORRY ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT HE IS LEARNING THAT HE HAS TEETH AND SEEMS TO WANT TO SINK THEM INTO EVERYTHING THAT GOES NEAR HIS MOUTH. I WORRY THAT HE WILL BITE A PIECE OF NIPPLE OFF AND CHOKE. IS THIS A SILLY THOUGHT? AND I WILL BE SURE TO TEST THE NIPPLE BEFORE I USE IT. THAT IS IF I CAN EVEN GET IT TO WORK :laugh2

[Nancy in New York]

NO WORRIES NANCY, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND. AND I GREATLY APPRECIATE THE GESTURE. I AM ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF NEEDLES AND SUCH. I HAPPEN TO BE A SURGICAL NURSE FOR A LOCAL OFFICE. WHERE CAN I GET THE MIRACLE NIPPLES? ONLINE/IN STORE? THE ONLY THING I WORRY ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT HE IS LEARNING THAT HE HAS TEETH AND SEEMS TO WANT TO SINK THEM INTO EVERYTHING THAT GOES NEAR HIS MOUTH. I WORRY THAT HE WILL BITE A PIECE OF NIPPLE OFF AND CHOKE. IS THIS A SILLY THOUGHT? AND I WILL BE SURE TO TEST THE NIPPLE BEFORE I USE IT. THAT IS IF I CAN EVEN GET IT TO WORK :laugh2

I will send a couple of miracle nipples. They are strong.
Little Marcus won't be biting any of these ends off for a LONG time.
I will also send some mother silicone nipples as well. Again, they are
strong, BUT when they get around 8 weeks they can definitely chew through
those in a heartbeat.
If you see them starting to chew the nipple you can even take it off and feed
without. You have nothing to worry about though for a few weeks, and NOT all squirrels
will bite the nipples.:)

[basnellin]

thank you so much! why do they bleed when they teeth? and does it hurt them? and he never cries. ever. is that odd?

[basnellin]

marcus weighs 69 grams today!! hes getting so big so fast

[Nancy in New York]

marcus weighs 69 grams today!! hes getting so big so fast

:serene You have no idea how good this post does my heart! :blowkiss
Can we see more pictures of our little Marcus when you get a chance. :) :poke

[cava]

Yay Marcus!:clap

[UDoWhat]

thank you so much! why do they bleed when they teeth? and does it hurt them? and he never cries. ever. is that odd?

Usually they may have bitten their tongue or their teeth have broken through their gums. Mine never cry either. It must hurt but they never act like anything has hurt them. Yes, strange, huh?

[basnellin]

Sorry it's so late everyone. And I will upload some pics in the morning. Is it normal that he never cries at all? Not even for feedings. I usually have to wake him to feed. And once he's awake he up and active and ready to eat. Maybe I don't give him the chance to call bc I have been keeping him nice and fed? The others used to cry/call for mom when they were hungry but he doesn't make any call noises. Also, when he was sick/on the verge of death I think he had a possible hypoglycemic seizure. With the twitching and body convulsions and such. Should I be concerned if possible long term issues? He seems to be doing great. He's started using his back legs and actually trying to walk around rather than crawl. The only thing is he doesn't make any noises. And he doesn't purr anymore :( any thoughts?

[cava]

My babies never cry at all. I don't give them a chance to. It's normal for them to sleep until you wake them to eat, and then once they know you're near to stir and get a little pushy about being fed. The only time mine make a noise is when they are not being fed fast enough or when they've had what I know to be enough but their brain hasn't received the "full" signal yet and they make grunting noises at me. (Or when I move everyone to change bedding, then everyone has something to say about being disturbed!)

Prey animals don't make a lot of noise or bring attention to themselves. I'm sure if you read about injured babies you'll note people wondering why they don't show typical signs of pain or vocalize. It sounds like your little guy is acting completely normal and is content. You're meeting his needs before he has need to cry out.

I can't wait for more photos!

[Nancy in New York]

. Maybe I don't give him the chance to call bc I have been keeping him nice and fed? The others used to cry/call for mom when they were hungry but he doesn't make any call noises.

You have to remember with the other ones, they were starving
being fed liquid esbilac diluted with 2 parts water. That's why they were crying out and calling for mom. :(

In fact when someone has found a baby squirrel in their yard, we ALWAYS tell them to listen for others,
because the DO AND WILL call out after about 2 days without mom because they ARE hungry.

With Marcus, he's content.
Like Cava said, little ones don't typically call out if full and happy. None of mine have.
They do make grunting noises when having their formula, but most of the time,
they just enjoy their baba silently, until they need a refill, then they can't get it fast enough.

[basnellin]

294562

[basnellin]

294563

[Nancy in New York]

294562

Oh little Marcus, you have just taken my heart!!!!!!!!!!!!:klunk:Love_Icon:klunk

[basnellin]

I've made some upgrades to marcus' crash pad. Thank you so much Nancy for the fleece and feeding supplies. The new nipples are wonderful and Marcus loves the plushy blankets. He's such a snuggle bug. I also purchased him a box that is a little bit wider and taller. Ive been leaving the lid off for better air supply. He's been growing like a weed so I thought it was time to update.

Marcus has been teething. He's started to nibble and his teeth are pretty sharp. Should I be giving him things to chew? If so, what should I be giving? Nancy, is it too soon to supply the mineral chews?

[Nancy in New York]

I've made some upgrades to marcus' crash pad. Thank you so much Nancy for the fleece and feeding supplies. The new nipples are wonderful and Marcus loves the plushy blankets. He's such a snuggle bug. I also purchased him a box that is a little bit wider and taller. Ive been leaving the lid off for better air supply. He's been growing like a weed so I thought it was time to update.

Marcus has been teething. He's started to nibble and his teeth are pretty sharp. Should I be giving him things to chew? If so, what should I be giving? Nancy, is it too soon to supply the mineral chews?

Those are little calcium ice cream cones, my squirrels LOVE them.
I would hold off on them a little while, probably around 8 weeks you can give them.
All of my little babies, used to love apple sticks.
That is what I typically start them out with.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=super+pet+apple+sticks&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asuper+pet+apple+sticks

Just make sure if you leave the lid off that there are no other animals around,
and IF you have to put the lid on, that there are tons of air holes. I know you already know that. :thumbsup

[basnellin]

294563
thank you. Right now we only have my adult flyer and Marcus. I keep them separated in two separate parts of the house right now until he moves to a bigger cage in there. Apple sticks is a great idea. I have some of those on hand 👍🏻

[Nancy in New York]

thank you. Right now we only have my adult flyer and Marcus. I keep them separated in two separate parts of the house right now until he moves to a bigger cage in there. Apple sticks is a great idea. I have some of those on hand ����

Looks good. Just remember not to have the fleece too high, you'd be surpised how
those little arms can stretch and pull themselves up and over.
Tomorrow I will look for a video of one of mine doing just that when I was
changing his cage. I needed to put him in a tall bin while cleaning his cage, and he escaped.
Luckily it was on the floor. I put him back in the bin and grabbed my camera because I KNEW
he would do it again, and he did!:grin2

[basnellin]

hahaha they are amazing escape artists.

[Nancy in New York]

Here's a short video of one of the little escapee's.
Just trying to clean his cage turned into this daily chore.
I finally figured out just throw a screen over the top of this bin while
I changed out his cage.
Worked like a charm.


https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QWQQxLc/0/534c9771/640/i-QWQQxLc-640.mp4

[basnellin]

that is sooooo adorable! what type/how old is the baby in that video?

[Nancy in New York]

that is sooooo adorable! what type/how old is the baby in that video?

He's just a black squirrel which is actually a grey only black. :)
He was about 7+ - 8 weeks old in that video.:grin2

[Jennefer]

I would take 10 of him Nancy! OMG - he is precious. :Love_Icon We got jipped here in central/south Florida....no black Grays. No white Grays. No Foxers, no Reds. No Ground Squirrels. I am a black cat girl...had them my whole life. I would kill for a black squirrel! :gigg I literally wouldn't get anything done. Nothing. But playing with baby black squirrel!

[basnellin]

Awe! He so adorable. I feel like a bad mom right now y'all. I was just now feeding Marcus and he took a little tumble. I was holding him over the counter and of course I never feed fast enough �� He got a little antsy and wiggled out of my hand and flipped about a foot maybe less onto the counter. He landed on a folded up wash cloth that put under him to feed in case he poops or pees. He landed on his back and I heard his head hit the counter even though he landed on the wash rag. He seems to be fine. He finished his meal and doesn't show any signs or anything wrong. It didn't seem to hurt him. But of course I'm worried to death ��
Also he weighs 85grams today!

[cava]

One time long ago when I was at work a tiny kitten had a seizure so I quickly opened the cage to get her out and while I was carrying her to the treatment counter she bit me so hard (not her fault, a seizure chomp) and reflexively I pulled my hand back and dropped her. I felt terrible, like cried my eyes out. Now I'm a stickler for two hands-top and bottom, feeding sitting down, wrapping up for carrying around, etc. I'm glad he's ok. Good weight gain!

[basnellin]

At his age/size how often should I be feeding?

[cava]

Continue to feed every 4 hours and you can take a 7 hour break (at most) at night to sleep. Feed 5-7% of his body weight, which will increase as his weight does. Keep up the great work!

[basnellin]

Thank you.

[basnellin]

hello everyone. little marcus is getting so big. he weighs 92 grams now and has started walking rather than crawling. I will post some pics this afternoon. If anyone has iphone im sure yall understand my struggle of having no storage space available. I will try to free some up. Id like to post a video!!

[lennysmom]

I use an iPhone most of the time to take pictures and post on the board. I too used to have a lot of trouble with storage space on my phone because of the thousands of pictures stored on it.:grin2 But after the last update, my phone only stores a small copy of my pictures on my phone with the originals on iCloud which I can retrieve when needed. That has really helped a lot and I no longer have storage issues.:)
You could also consider using a service like SmugMug to store your pictures, but that does cost to use. Hope you can figure out something that works - I would love to see more pictures and a video of that little sweetie!:Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

hello everyone. little marcus is getting so big. he weighs 92 grams now and has started walking rather than crawling. I will post some pics this afternoon. If anyone has iphone im sure yall understand my struggle of having no storage space available. I will try to free some up. Id like to post a video!!

I would LOVE to see a video too!
92 grams, now that's fantastic!
Keep up the great work! :w00t

[basnellin]

So it's official I HATE TECHNOLOGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For as far as the world has come with technology its all crap. Every bit of it. NOT WORTH A FREAKING THING! Sorry I havent posted in a few days. Marcus is doing great. He weighs 114grams today. He and I went out of town for the weekend and I just got back around to be able to post. I've been trying to post these videos I just took of me and him but of course technology is S***. I have an I phone and just got enough storage back to take two small videos. but i cant get them to upload to the board. and when i try to upload it as a pic it doesnt work. ugh. never ending road blocks i swear. any ideas on how to fix this issue? if not then everyone will just have to be ok with pics.

[basnellin]

OMG and i gave him a tiny piece of squirrel block today to try him out on and he took it from me and tried to dig up his fleece and bury it. i thought i was going to die it was so cute

[cava]

Create a free youtube account, it's so easy to upload, takes seconds, and then link us to the video there. It's the easiest way.

[Nancy in New York]

Create a free youtube account, it's so easy to upload, takes seconds, and then link us to the video there. It's the easiest way.

Yup, and even I can do it! :w00t

[Nancy in New York]

How's our little Miracle Marcus doing? :Love_Icon

[basnellin]

295374

[basnellin]

Good morning everyone! Sorry I've not posted in a while. Marcus is doing awesome! He's getting so big and playful. He has gotten too big for my small scale to weigh him so I will be investing in a larger one. At this point he is still on formula. I've been giving him as much as he will reasonably take but only three times daily. I've been offering water and squirrel blocks, acorn squash, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, lettuce in between meals. He doesn't really care for the hard foods though. And the squirrel blocks he tries to stash lol

[Nancy in New York]

On 9/29 you posted this below about Marcus.
This is really such a wonderful success story, thanks to
you for not giving up, and finding help for Little Marcus! :w00t:blowkiss:w00t


the little one is literally hanging on by a thread at the moment. im giving him hydration every 15-30min right now and monitoring him.


What do you think of me now? :serene


295374

[cava]

When mine won't stay on the scale, I put a large bowl on the scale, press Tare and get it to zero, then weigh them in a bowl. It would save you from buying a new one.

He looks great!

[basnellin]

Great idea with the bowl! thank you everyone for such great support. hes about 8 weeks or so now. any suggestions as far as diet or anything that you all would like to share?

[lennysmom]

It makes me smile to see another great update on this thread!:serene
I agree with Nancy - when I think of how he started out and seeing him now, it is truly a great success story thanks to your diligent love and care.:Love_Icon:hug

[cava]

Keep up with the formula, introduce blocks for him to nom nom and destroy until he starts eating them all gone. Once that happens, in a few weeks, you can start to offer one veggie at a time to see how he likes them, monitor poops, etc. Blocks and formula before veggies or treats!

Here's a list of approved foods: https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?44440-Healthy-Diet-for-Pet-Squirrels

[basnellin]

I've started offering blocks. At first he didn't care for them of course bu he has been nom noming them now lol. He doesn't eat a whole block but we will continue to work on that and introduce other foods one at a time. He is such a sweet heart. So playful and loves his back rubbed. He really is a blessing. :love

[lennysmom]

:):Love_Icon