Soaking nuts & seeds

[olorin19]

I would like to share a few observations, as well as ask if anyone else has experience in this area:

Seeds, nuts, and grains in their raw ungerminated state contain various substances including enzyme inhibitors and phytic acid, and phytates. Enzyme inhibitors help the seed, nut, etc. remain in a dormant state until conditions are favorable for germination. Favorable conditions include proper temperature and adequate moisture. Soaking seeds, nuts, etc. for 24-36 hours will deactivate the enzyme inhibitors (which when still present hinder digestion) and begin the germination process. For this reason, many people who comsume raw nuts and seeds will soak them first.

Phytic acid is a major way that phosporous is stored in nuts and seeds.When bound to a mineral, this is known as a phytate. Phytic acid impairs the absorption of iron, zinc and calcium.

So, one question I have is whether MBD from eating too many nuts may at least in part be explained by these nuts not having been soaked first. Has anyone experimented with this? Or seen any research?

i have been soaking hazelnuts (after shelling with vise grips) and pecans (just cracking the outer shell with vise grips) for 24-36 hours then feeding them to Ziggy and Dustin. Ziggy is a 16 month old male, special needs NR. Dustin is a three year old male, mostly in the wild since spring 2015 but a frequent visitor and still quite tame with me. When given the choice between a soaked or unsoaked nut, both will take the soaked nut. Neither had the slightest hesitation when soaked nuts were first offered. In Dustin's case, while he has eaten lots of unsoaked nuts over the years, he has also buried quite a few. I have yet to see him bury a soaked nut. I was experimenting a bit this evening, and after eating two soaked hazelnuts, I started giving him unsoaked. He buried four in a row. Then I gave hima soaked one, and he ate it straight away.

Comments most welcome!

[Diggie's Friend]

They're pretty smart aren't they!

A study done with fox squirrels in the wild, found that if there is little risk for survival, the squirrels chose nuts not treated with an anti nutrients over those that were treated. They know what a nut that has higher tannins, and oxalates smells like is why, and apparently phytates too! it is needful to add an acidifier to the nuts to support the well reduction of phytates using the soaking method; drying them in an oven on low heat for about 18 minutes at 180 F helps to better eliminate the phytates they contain.

Why a squirrel likely doesn't bury soaked nuts is for reason the anti nutrients in the nut are already partically reduced by soaking them, smelling more like a nut they retrieve after burying it in the soil. It is in this way that tree squirrels reduce anti-nutrients in acorns with the same outcome as using soaking, acidifying, and heating results in, by burying them in the soil after biting off one end; for over the following months the organic acids and moisture in the soil leach out the tannins and oxalates which increases the bioavailability (availability to the body) of the nutrients in the nuts for the squirrels.

Without caregivers mirroring this reduction fo anti-nutrients in nuts, and othe foods higher in anti-nutrients in captivity, the squirrels, who cannot reduce the anti nutrients in captivity, are getting higher levels of them in acorns than they normally be getting in the wild.

As for too many nuts in a captive diet, yes it lend to the development of MBD, and diabetes over time. rm. In research studies in rats high protein diets caused calcium loss out the urine.

Extra calories beyond what is needed for these animals in captivity tends to build up in and around the inner organs, that like their domestic counterparts leads to metabolic health disorders, including diabetes, but also the reduction of muscle mass. As they say if you don't you'll lose it.

This is why it is important to support a spacious habitat cage to suited the needs of NR squirrels in captivity encourages weight bearing exercise that these arboreal rodents need to support a healthly weight, muscle tone, heart, and bone health. Our squirrel lived past 11 years, and still loved climbing and hanging upside down put to the month prior to her passing. We were told her had a very strong heart.

I also knew of a squirrel that was back paralized that developed strong arms and a strong heart from being allowed to climb.

I hope to be posting a more detailed address on how to reduce various anti nutrients in my diet thread soon.

[Gray Squirrel]

They're pretty smart aren't they!

A study done with fox squirrels in the wild, found that if there is little risk for survival, the squirrels chose nuts not treated with an anti nutrients over those that were treated. They know what a nut that has higher tannins, and oxalates smells like is why, and apparently phytates too! it is needful to add an acidifier to the nuts to support the well reduction of phytates using the soaking method; drying them in an oven on low heat for about 18 minutes at 180 F helps to better eliminate the phytates they contain.

Why a squirrel likely doesn't bury soaked nuts is for reason the anti nutrients in the nut are already partically reduced by soaking them, smelling more like a nut they retrieve after burying it in the soil. It is in this way that tree squirrels reduce anti-nutrients in acorns with the same outcome as using soaking, acidifying, and heating results in, by burying them in the soil after biting off one end; for over the following months the organic acids and moisture in the soil leach out the tannins and oxalates which increases the bioavailability (availability to the body) of the nutrients in the nuts for the squirrels.

Without caregivers mirroring this reduction fo anti-nutrients in nuts, and othe foods higher in anti-nutrients in captivity, the squirrels, who cannot reduce the anti nutrients in captivity, are getting higher levels of them in acorns than they normally be getting in the wild.

As for too many nuts in a captive diet, yes it lend to the development of MBD, and diabetes over time. rm. In research studies in rats high protein diets caused calcium loss out the urine.

Extra calories beyond what is needed for these animals in captivity tends to build up in and around the inner organs, that like their domestic counterparts leads to metabolic health disorders, including diabetes, but also the reduction of muscle mass. As they say if you don't you'll lose it.

This is why it is important to support a spacious habitat cage to suited the needs of NR squirrels in captivity encourages weight bearing exercise that these arboreal rodents need to support a healthly weight, muscle tone, heart, and bone health. Our squirrel lived past 11 years, and still loved climbing and hanging upside down put to the month prior to her passing. We were told her had a very strong heart.

I also knew of a squirrel that was back paralized that developed strong arms and a strong heart from being allowed to climb.

I hope to be posting a more detailed address on how to reduce various anti nutrients in my diet thread soon.

You say there is a study in which wild squirrels choose nuts not treated with anti-nutrients. Are the nuts we buy treated with anti-nutrients? If this is so it may be the reason captive squirrels get Metabolic Bone Diseases from nuts. I have been told that almonds in the shell have been bleached but I do not know what is used to bleach them. I think hazelnuts (filberts) are sulfonated. Do you know what effect sulfonating nuts would have on squirrels? I do not know if or how other nuts(like walnuts and pecans) are cleaned before they are sold.
In “The Natural History of Squirrels” by John Gurnell in Chapter 3 Food and feeding under the heading of Squirrels and white Oaks Page 46 in my addition it says that Squirrels cut out the embryos of white acorns before they cached them but did not do this for Red Acorns. The squirrels do this to keep the acorns from white oaks from germinating before they are needed. I think it was also this book that said the Red acorns have more tannin than while acorns and this keeps them from germinating so the embryo is not removed from acorns form red oaks. I wonder if this removing of the embryos is what you are seeing when you say the squirrels bit off one end. This might mean that the reason for biting of one end is not to help leach out oxalates and tannin but to make the nuts last longer before they germinate.
I wonder if soaking acorns with the shell intact would make a difference. I think The oxalates and tannin must eventually leach out of acorns in the shell or acorns would not germinate.
It seems that gray squirrels can eat acorns that are not as ripe as the English red squirrels need them to be before they can eat them, and I think this is may have to do with the amount of tannin in unripe acorns

[Diggie's Friend]

You say there is a study in which wild squirrels choose nuts not treated with anti-nutrients.

That is correct; it was a field study with Fox squirrels, to see if the squirrels differentiated between the seeds treated with oxalates and those that weren't, which they did save for those foraged for further out from their nest where survival took presidence over preference.


In “The Natural History of Squirrels” by John Gurnell in Chapter 3 Food and feeding under the heading of Squirrels and white Oaks Page 46 in my addition it says that Squirrels cut out the embryos of white acorns before they cached them but did not do this for Red Acorns. The squirrels do this to keep the acorns from white oaks from germinating before they are needed. I think it was also this book that said the Red acorns have more tannin than while acorns and this keeps them from germinating so the embryo is not removed from acorns form red oaks.

Yes, I have read that as well. They will eat most of the white acorns and excise the embryo of those they bury; this perhaps for storing them short term keep them from germinating.

Though not contesting this quote, presently I don't recall where i read this. Hopefully I will come across that again soon, and get back to share that here.


I wonder if soaking acorns with the shell intact would make a difference. I think The oxalates and tannin must eventually leach out of acorns in the shell or acorns would not germinate.

Eventually they put down a tap root. When seeds germinate they use up much of the oxalate they contain. This is why sprouted grains and seeds are lower in oxalates than those not sprouted. Sprouting, that supports the reduction in oxalates and other anti-nutrients in seeds, makes the nutrients that they contain far more bioavailable (available for use by the body).

Soaking acorns in their shells accomplishes nothing but to get them soggy, which promotes fungal growth on the outside and perhaps on the inside as well.

Putting acorns in a tub of water briefly to do the sink or float test (good seeds sink, bad seeds float) is ok to do if you plant to open the sinkers by first boiling the seeds (see online directions) which makes the removal of the shell much easier, to process them.
Once shelled, cut the acorn seed in half to examine the inside for any weevil larva.

(Be careful to safely dispose of bad ones that have been put in water, as not to negatively impact the wild squirrels that may eat them.)

Those that are clean can be soaked to leach out the tannins and oxalates, or boiled which as I described on another thread speeds up the process. Then blot them dry, and place them immediately on a cooking sheet in the oven on low heat (see online directions) Once fully dried, seal them in a vacuum sealed bag, and store them in a dry cool place indoors.

[Gray Squirrel]

They're pretty smart aren't they!

A study done with fox squirrels in the wild, found that if there is little risk for survival, the squirrels chose nuts not treated with an anti nutrients over those that were treated. They know what a nut that has higher tannins, and oxalates smells like is why, and apparently phytates too! it is needful to add an acidifier to the nuts to support the well reduction of phytates using the soaking method; drying them in an oven on low heat for about 18 minutes at 180 F helps to better eliminate the phytates they contain.

Why a squirrel likely doesn't bury soaked nuts is for reason the anti nutrients in the nut are already partically reduced by soaking them, smelling more like a nut they retrieve after burying it in the soil. It is in this way that tree squirrels reduce anti-nutrients in acorns with the same outcome as using soaking, acidifying, and heating results in, by burying them in the soil after biting off one end; for over the following months the organic acids and moisture in the soil leach out the tannins and oxalates which increases the bioavailability (availability to the body) of the nutrients in the nuts for the squirrels.

Without caregivers mirroring this reduction fo anti-nutrients in nuts, and othe foods higher in anti-nutrients in captivity, the squirrels, who cannot reduce the anti nutrients in captivity, are getting higher levels of them in acorns than they normally be getting in the wild.

As for too many nuts in a captive diet, yes it lend to the development of MBD, and diabetes over time. rm. In research studies in rats high protein diets caused calcium loss out the urine.

Extra calories beyond what is needed for these animals in captivity tends to build up in and around the inner organs, that like their domestic counterparts leads to metabolic health disorders, including diabetes, but also the reduction of muscle mass. As they say if you don't you'll lose it.

This is why it is important to support a spacious habitat cage to suited the needs of NR squirrels in captivity encourages weight bearing exercise that these arboreal rodents need to support a healthly weight, muscle tone, heart, and bone health. Our squirrel lived past 11 years, and still loved climbing and hanging upside down put to the month prior to her passing. We were told her had a very strong heart.

I also knew of a squirrel that was back paralized that developed strong arms and a strong heart from being allowed to climb.

I hope to be posting a more detailed address on how to reduce various anti nutrients in my diet thread soon.
I have noticed that the filberts that squirrels have buried in flower pots outside seem to rot out. This may be because I water the plants too much. I think that before seed germinate they need to have certain inhibitors washed out. To sprout seeds the seeds have to be soak and then and rinsed. Do oxalates inhibit germination? If what you say is true then oxalates or at least some of the oxalates do not have to be leeched out before a seed can germinate. What do seeds use oxalic acid for? Does Phytic acid inhibit seeds from germinating? May be it is just enzyme inhibitor that keep nuts and seeds from germination. Are oxalates and Phytic acid enzyme inhibitors? What do seeds use oxalic acid and Phytic acid for?
I think a squirrel has lived to be about 12 or 13 years old in the wild. I think the reasons that wild squirrels do not usually live to be about 10 or 11 years in the wild is because of all the dangers they face like predators cars and starvation. It seems that captive squirrels are feed much differently than squirrels in the wild feed themselves if the food they need is available in the wild. In the wild squirrels do not roast or boil nuts. I guess roasting and bowling may be necessary for captive squirrels to keep the nuts form going bad but it does not seem natural. I have thought that it is good for squirrels to have to open their own nuts.

[olorin19]

I was interested in the post about squirrels biting off the end of acorns. i wonder if whether or not squirrels bite off the end of a nut depends upon the type?

Dustin turned three last month. As a late summer baby, I overwintered him 2014-2015, so he was inside with me until the following spring 2015. Summer 2016 then again in winter 2017, he had abscesses from bite wounds and so was back indoors with me on antibiotics. During each of these periods indoors, which total about twelve months, Dustin had access to dirt in which to dig. He was given unsoaked hazelnuts/filberts, walnuts, and pecans in the shell. He buried lots of these in the dirt. These did not rot, as the dirt itself was fairly dry. When I eventually got him back outside and went through Dustin's dirt, I would find lots of these nuts. I never found a single one where Dustin had bitten a hole in the shell - in all cases, they were buried whole.

[Lighten-Up]

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I do ponder them a lot, so I appreciate the post.

This info made me think a little differently about the squirrels burying the unshelled nuts that I give them. I had been happy to give a nut so long as the squirrel ate it, then when I would see that they were running off burying nuts, I would end the nut giving session.

I am now wondering... maybe I should be happy that they are burying the nuts, because the buried nuts will now be leaching out the anti-nutrients so that when they dig them up again, the nuts will actually be more healthy for them. Have I been thwarting intelligent squirrel practices unknowingly, thinking my human wisdom to be superior? Hmmmm, ut-oh...

This turns my entire "modus operandi" on it's head. Time to rethink....

[olorin19]

The first few days, Dustin ate the soaked nuts but buried the unsoaked ones. Since then, I have seen him bury several filberts that were soaked.

[Diggie's Friend]

It's clear that they smell the difference. Again it is true the white ones that they dont' want to eat right away have the embryo excised first, that keeps them from germinating. I recall one source I was told that the reds were excised, even so not in agreement with Gurnell, from the video presented by David Attenboro. I'll have to look online to see if I can find that title. As to what the original source of this information i have read, I can't recall having so many files but I will keep looking.

I hope you mean the soaked seeds right, not stiil in the shell? With the Acorns, when you get to the ready to leach stage, after you have boiled them to get the shell off, leach them in hot water changing the water and rinsing between each treatment.

Soaking the seeds overnight starting with hot purfied water with an acidic medium added, does help to lower phytates and oxalates some, along with drying them on low heat in the oven. I found that Pet Florai is more acidic than the yogurt, so this is the source we are now using to lower the phytates and oxalates in a resaerch diet for gray squirrels.

Why this works is that soil based bacteria, the same that is found in the gut of all mammals, degrades of oxalates in the diet. Wilds replenish this regularly when they ingest soil (geophagy) mostly from the soil that surrounds the roots of grasses, that they pull up to chew on.

[olorin19]

I hope you mean the soaked seeds right, not stiil in the shell? Soaking the seeds overnight starting with hot purfied water with an acidic medium added, does help to lower phytates and oxalates some, along with drying them on low heat in the oven. I found that Pet Florai is more acidic than the yogurt, so this is the source we are now using to lower the phytates and oxalates in a resaerch diet for gray squirrels.

Why this works is that soil based bacteria, the same that is found in the gut of all mammals, degrades of oxalates in the diet. Wilds replenish this regularly when they ingest soil (geophagy) mostly from the soil that surrounds the roots of grasses, that they pull up to chew on.

With the Acorns, when you get to the ready to leach stage, after you have boiled them to get the shell off, leach them in hot water changing the water and rinsing between each treatment.

I buy whole filberts. These are shelled then soaked. I also buy whole pecans. These have the shells cracked then are soaked with the shell still on.

[Gray Squirrel]

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I do ponder them a lot, so I appreciate the post.

This info made me think a little differently about the squirrels burying the unshelled nuts that I give them. I had been happy to give a nut so long as the squirrel ate it, then when I would see that they were running off burying nuts, I would end the nut giving session.

I am now wondering... maybe I should be happy that they are burying the nuts, because the buried nuts will now be leaching out the anti-nutrients so that when they dig them up again, the nuts will actually be more healthy for them. Have I been thwarting intelligent squirrel practices unknowingly, thinking my human wisdom to be superior? Hmmmm, ut-oh...

This turns my entire "modus operandi" on it's head. Time to rethink....
When I see squirrels burying nut I wonder if I am giving them too many but I also think I like them too have nuts stored away for later in case food is scarce and this is normal squirrel behavior. What if I am not around when food is scarce for squirrels?

[Gray Squirrel]

It's clear that they smell the difference. Again it is true the white ones that they dont' want to eat right away have the embryo excised first, that keeps them from germinating. I recall one source I was told that the reds were excised, even so not in agreement with Gurnell, from the video presented by David Attenboro. I'll have to look online to see if I can find that title. As to what the original source of this information i have read, I can't recall having so many files but I will keep looking.

I hope you mean the soaked seeds right, not stiil in the shell? With the Acorns, when you get to the ready to leach stage, after you have boiled them to get the shell off, leach them in hot water changing the water and rinsing between each treatment.

Soaking the seeds overnight starting with hot purfied water with an acidic medium added, does help to lower phytates and oxalates some, along with drying them on low heat in the oven. I found that Pet Florai is more acidic than the yogurt, so this is the source we are now using to lower the phytates and oxalates in a resaerch diet for gray squirrels.

Why this works is that soil based bacteria, the same that is found in the gut of all mammals, degrades of oxalates in the diet. Wilds replenish this regularly when they ingest soil (geophagy) mostly from the soil that surrounds the roots of grasses, that they pull up to chew on.
Some were I have read that with all the things that are done to the land sometimes the soil based organisms are dead or no longer present in the soil.

[Diggie's Friend]

Gray Squirrel wrote:

It seems that captive squirrels are feed much differently than squirrels in the wild feed themselves if the food they need is available in the wild. In the wild squirrels do not roast or boil nuts. I guess roasting and bowling may be necessary for captive squirrels to keep the nuts form going bad but it does not seem natural. I have thought that it is good for squirrels to have to open their own nuts.

Rodent block is an unnatural source of food for tree squirrels, as are many forms of cultivated whole foods that are chosen to include with their block diets; yet it is needful for the rehabilitation of tree and ground squirrels to have sources that can get them from weaning back to the wild. For reason of all that is involved in raising many squirrels at one time. This often a daunting task, the rat block diet that was specifically formated for that species, became the default standard to support a temporary diet for juvenile tree squirrels in rehabilitation to their release.

On that note, it is still far better to include those sources lower in anti-nutrients which supports the diet this diet with natural sources of calcium, which do not cause demineralization of the calcium source in the other foods that are digested with them in the intestines. Determining which sources lend this support goes beyond just the Ca:P ratio reference for various fruits and vegetales, to regard the Ox:Ca value of these same foods. For though the vast and broad forms of foods common to the human diets are not all suitable to be used as a surrogate source of nutrition for tree squirrels; for rodents possess a different digestive tract than humans, that uptakes all forms of calcium, even insoluble forms well, even so has a far shorter time to digest the foods like greens that it takes longer to get most of the calcium out of. In many green vegetables oxalic acid is higher in level than free calcium, making thse sources poor to bad as far as contributing calcium to the diet. Moreover many are so high in oxalates gthat they result in the demineralization of calcium in other foods that they are ingested with.

As for the wilds, the pregnant and nursing females require even more calories from fat, protein, than their weaned juvenile young. In those years when the mast (acorn crop) fails, or in areas where nuts are in short supply due to the fragmentation of habitat (from land development and forest fires), the less dominant squirrels, mostly aged or young juveniles, are driven out by the dominant residents. In some areas where there are crops of corn, and soy, tree squirrels have been known to predate these sources as a supplement to wild sources of nuts, that they actually prefer over these lower fat sources. This was shown in a live study of tree squirrels on a university campus, where various nuts were put out for the squirrel at a number of locations; in all cases those nuts, which in this case was the English walnut, were consumed first, and then the next nuts all in order of the level of fat content each of them had before the next was consumed. This is strong evidence that they determine the best source to support their survival by scent.

In a study done in a lab testing wild nuts along with corn and soy, to determine if the soy and corn offers sufficient support as a supplement to the diet of wilds in the winter vs. feeding tree squirrels wild nuts. The results of the testing of the nuts and the soy and corn, found soy in corn to not offer the high support nutritionally that the wild nuts do, in support of this purpose. Given that any food vs. no food is a plus for squirerls in the winter, but that nuts will better support their survival when given in supplement to their wild diet in the winter, and that the nursing mothers, and their weaned juvenile young that also require a higher intake of nutrients; it is the wild nuts that are clearly best choice to offer in supplement to their other wild foods year round.

I agree that they should not be overfed, but alos that a supplement calcium source should be offered with them to better support a healthly ratio of Ca:P in their bones.

[Diggie's Friend]

I have thought that it is good for squirrels to have to open their own nuts.

In the wild is is needful that they open up most; in captivity given unprocessed antlers to chew on, and a presoaked half shell of a hickory, that is very hard, they do fine with shelled nuts.

[Diggie's Friend]

Originally Posted by olorin19

I also buy whole pecans. These have the shells cracked then are soaked with the shell still on.

I missed this one.

It's not good to soak any nut in the shell cracked part way, as that opens the nut to developing of toxic mold from possible spores on the outside fo the shell being supported to grow inside from adding moisture. Soaking of shelled nut seeds should only be done with the shell removed, and then dried in the oven on low heat for about 18 minutes.

Boiling of acorns with the shell intact, not other nuts save for chestnuts, to get the shell off, for about 5 minutes, then removing the shell; then soaking them soaking them in hot water to leach out tannins and oxalates, rinsing and repeating a number of times, then blotting and drying them fully on low oven heat, is a good way to accomplish this processing.