Hami suddenly dehydrated and lethargic

[Scooterzmom]

My baby boy is in distress and I'm at a loss as to what could be wrong!

Hami is now going on 7, and today, when I brought him his food I found his bowl still full with yesterday's food. He had not touched it. Then I also found his boo-ball untouched, and his blocks.

Hami usually eats his blocks - 2 Henry's and some Teklads also. He has a very good diet - Kale, arrugula, broccoli, boy choi, romaine, spinach, sweet potato, avocado, butternut squash, radicchio, various fruit, and very limited quantities of nuts. He also gets some oats, some flax seed at times, other times some chia seeds, and some unsweetened coconut. He usually eats with great appetite.


I have no idea what is going on!!! When I picked him up, I found him so light it scared me ... then when I did the pinch test I found he was totally dehydrated! His water bottle is there, still 2/3 full.

I have sub-q'd him - 7ml - at 8pm and gave him 2 ml of a tums diluted in water (just in case). Then at around 8:30 he went to his water bottle and drank there for some 5 minutes solid. I've been checking on him, tried to give more tums in water - he hates it - and he's still very lethargic. He just lays there, stretched out flat.

Please! Does anyone have any idea what I might be dealing with here??? This scares me to death... it's like Scooter all over again!!!! No warning, so sign... nothing! This is my sweet baby boy, I can't lose him the same way!

[SammysMom]

Oh no...all of our worst fear! However, dehydration explains all of it. Maybe not feeling well so not drinking and the cycle began. Hydrate him. Give sugar or honey in the water if it helps. How does his fur look?

[island rehabber]

You might want to sub-Q again -- 10-12cc's this time. For whatever reason something knocked him for a loop and he wasn't drinking enough. Poor Hami! And poor Mamma :Love_Icon

[Scooterzmom]

Oh no...all of our worst fear! However, dehydration explains all of it. Maybe not feeling well so not drinking and the cycle began. Hydrate him. Give sugar or honey in the water if it helps. How does his fur look?

His fur looks fine. What baffles me is, he was really lethargic when I picked him after noticing his food had been untouched. So I put the fresh food down, put him back on his shelf and he slowly walked to his bowl and began nibbling on his food - some avocado, some sweet potato and some arugula. Thing is, he was sitting like all hunched down and seemed to have trouble holding his food. I picked him up again and that's when I noticed how very light he felt.

I weighed him and he's 600gr! This is a guy who weighed a kilo (2.2lbs) last fall!

He always gains a lot of weight over the fall and winter, and sheds a lot in the spring... so I had not noticed anything alarming... until picking him up today.

EDIT: OK I'll go do this now. I had put a new branch in his cage, 3 days ago. Now I'm wondering. Oh God! I took it out of his cage tonight, was going to shorten it to make a shorter walking bridge. Now I won't put it back! If he ingested something contaminated, will the sub-Q help eliminate it in any way?

[Mel1959]

Sending prayers for Hami and you. :grouphug I hope he feels better soon. :hug

[Scooterzmom]

I've sub-Q'd him again - 10ml. Poor little man just lets us handle him without even trying to fight. I'm sitting here bawling my eyes out,,, That lack of will to fight itself scares me to no end: this is NOT my feisty, spunky normal Hami. :( I'm exhausted yet too scared and stressed to even try to get some sleep. I'd be scared to fall asleep and wake up to find him gone, like what happened with Scooter.

Please God... don't take my baby yet. He's still young, he still has so much to live for.

Thank you for being there guys.

[Scooterzmom]

He was asleep, I woke him up because I was concerned he would slip back and might dehydrate again. So, and I hope I did the right thing with this, I just gave him some Ensure. I thought it could help keep up his hydration and maybe bring a touch of nourishment since he had eaten so little earlier.

Ensure I have is Pecan flavor. At first he didn't want it but once he got a good taste of it he decided to take more, for a total of about 6cc - minus a few lost drops. I've set my alarm and will check on him in another 3 hours.

God please help me... :sadness

[Mel1959]

How is Hami this morning?

[Nancy in New York]

How is Hami this morning?

I was wondering the same thing.
Thinking of you both and sending lots of prayers. :hug

[SammysMom]

Praying for a good report.. :Love_Icon

[Scooterzmom]

Hami is stable this morning. At this point I will take stable over downhill :( Because he had not moved to go to his water bottle - I put a mark on the water level to check if he had been drinking froom it and no, he didn't go drinking. So I gave him more Ensure. I also added some calcium to it.

Considering the nutrition he gets he shouldn't have MBD but damn! I find he's showing symptoms of it! Lethargic, not moving around much at all, seeking warmth (I placed a rice buddy in there for him), no appetite, moving kind of awkwardly... I don't see tears in his eyes, but I know he's hurting somewhere. I can't tell if it would be his stomach bothering him, or his legs/bones. So, because his own cage is huge and with ladders and shelves, I set up Scooter's cage (the Marshall Mansion) in the room and put him in it - I set it so he can use one level only. I also placed Scooter's log cabin in there - since his own nest would be too big for the cage - and a heating pad under the tray, under half of his cabin. This way I'll know that at least he doesn't risk falling or injuring himself.

I was planning on giving him more Ensure and calcium at 11 (he had some at 7).

Any advice is welcome :dono

EDIT: I checked his hydration and it seems fine. I just down want him to dehydrate again and am trying to stay on top of that hoping to avoid the need to sub-Q him again.

[Scooterzmom]

Does anyone have any suggestions? Any idea what I might be dealing with here? Am I doing the right thing? I question every decision I take, every move I make. :dono

I placed a bowl of water in his cage - just in case, figured he might find it more difficult to drink from the water bottle - and I just saw him drinking from the bowl a bit. Anytime I see him drink a bit by himself I keep hoping. But, he just took a few sips, then laid himself down flat again looking exhausted.

Seeing that he was awake I decided not to wait until 11 and gave him another calcium dose and then 2cc of Ensure.

[CritterMom]

I think you are doing the right thing. Just really watch the hydration thing - don't let him backslide an inch with that. And if he likes the ensure, go for it. If you have any formula you might want to try that too - or even blend the formula and ensure.

It is hard to know what is causing this but giving him MBD treatment isn't going to hurt him.

Make sure you are getting pee and poop, too.

[Mel1959]

Honestly, I don't know what to suggest. You seem to be covering all the bases for support. Could it be teeth? Pneumonia/congestion? UTI? Those are the things I think of for possible infections.

Are you seeing any improvement with the added calcium? I'm not sure what his diet is, but I will say that Dr. Emerson has seen cases of MBD in squirrels that have been on HHB's and veggies. The squirrels that she treats that have lived the longest in captivity were on a diet of rodent block (75%) like Harlan Teklad, Oxbow, Maxuri etc. and veggies (25%).

I think the Ensure is good for nutritional support.

[PennyCash]

:grouphug Sorry I've got nothing to offer but mega prayers :grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

I just gave him another dose of the calcium. I've been using a 500mg calcium pill crushed into 5cc of sugared water, and have been spreading it over every 4hrs so far. Should I go more frequently... less frequently?

I've also been giving him at least 5cc of Ensure each time and I did see him drink but I just did the skin test and he seems dehydrated - his fur feels dry again! :sadness I don't understand because he has been peeing, and he did poop (not dried up poopies, normal moist ones). It was not much but then again, since he has not been eating... :(

Should I sub-Q again?

[redwuff]

We had something go through our pinkies and rescues this spring that sucked out every bit of fluid from their bodies in what seemed like a matter of minutes. It was horribly frightening. We sub qed like mad, and used Baytril and kept them on heat more than usual. They were not able to hold their body heat. They were also losing fluid out of their butt, it was not even diahrea, just fluid. We did not lose anyone but I had no idea why not, they were so dire.

The most important thing was to keep/put fluid in at all costs. Keep treating symptoms, especially hydration with Hami. Use hydration fluid to replace lost electrolytes. He can survive lower calories longer than being dehydrated.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Mitch, I'm just catching up on Hami. Because there doesn't appear to be an obvious cause, I really do worry about the teeth. With the weight loss it appears this might have been creeping up slowly. Has he shown any signs of pain (teeth) as in stop chewing hard nuts, etc? Do the incisors have a squared off blunt appearance or a nice chiseled edge? At 7 I get real worried about the teeth.

I'm thinking out loud here but I wonder about some pain medication. I know he would need hydration with pain meds.

[redwuff]

His fur looks fine. What baffles me is, he was really lethargic when I picked him after noticing his food had been untouched. So I put the fresh food down, put him back on his shelf and he slowly walked to his bowl and began nibbling on his food - some avocado, some sweet potato and some arugula. Thing is, he was sitting like all hunched down and seemed to have trouble holding his food. I picked him up again and that's when I noticed how very light he felt.

I weighed him and he's 600gr! This is a guy who weighed a kilo (2.2lbs) last fall!

He always gains a lot of weight over the fall and winter, and sheds a lot in the spring... so I had not noticed anything alarming... until picking him up today.

EDIT: OK I'll go do this now. I had put a new branch in his cage, 3 days ago. Now I'm wondering. Oh God! I took it out of his cage tonight, was going to shorten it to make a shorter walking bridge. Now I won't put it back! If he ingested something contaminated, will the sub-Q help eliminate it in any way?



I wonder if he has lost a whole pound, if this has been going on for awhile. Is there anything that might have been going on that sort of nagged at you but not enough to pay too much attention to?

[Scooterzmom]

We have sub-q'd him again about 2 hours ago. We did check his teeth, everything seems normal there. Even his gums are nice and pink. As for the weight loss we had not freaked out because every fall he gains a huge amount of weight, and every spring/summer he'd been shedding it. He seemed totally normal until 2 days ago. He was out and about, playing and all. He even managed to get into my outdoor squirrel jar and steal a couple of peanuts (I usually hide those when he comes out) and went to hide them in the couch and armchair. :)

He had been eating really well... I'd always find the bowl empty (or almost) and it was the same for his blocks (he prefers the homemade Henry's but he does eat his Harlan Teklads too, although sometimes not all of them). This was so sudden.

Again, I had brought some new branches in. At this point those are the only things I could think...

It's absolutely scary because again he was dehydrated and yet, right after the sub-q he gave me a big pee. He just has no energy at all, just lays there and doesn't want to eat... not even an avocado which he normally loves. I presented it to him, wanting to know if that at least would stimulate some interest from him, but no. I even trie offering a shelled almond, not even that.

He stays on the warm pad but moves away from it... yet his ears feel cool.

I'm scared! I feel like I'm watching the life slip from him and there's nothing that seems to work! :Cry

EDIT: We did give him some Metacam, right after the sub-Q this afternoon. He still just lays there. :(

[SammysMom]

Do you have any Nutrical? I wonder if maybe getting a bit of concentrated calories into him might help a bit. Many prayers going up for all of you...:Love_Icon

[JLM27]

Are you sure there isno intestinal blockage or UTI? I saw a squirrel go downhill very fast and one of these two things was suspected. Sometimes UTI doesn't present externally. Is he peeing?

[Ekorre]

I can't offer any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm sending tons of positive, healing energy to you and Hami. :grouphug You obviously love him with all your heart and are doing everything you can. :Love_Icon

[Scooterzmom]

Do you have any Nutrical? I wonder if maybe getting a bit of concentrated calories into him might help a bit. Many prayers going up for all of you...:Love_Icon

I've been giving him Ensure since last night, and tonight I added a bit of formula to it and some yogurt. THen I gave him his dose of calcium.


Are you sure there isno intestinal blockage or UTI? I saw a squirrel go downhill very fast and one of these two things was suspected. Sometimes UTI doesn't present externally. Is he peeing?
He has been peeing, big pees now, and did poop - normal looking poopies.

He went to fdrink from his bowl after his Ensure and his calcium tonight. Now, again, he's just laying there limp. I feel like we're losing the battle. :sadness

[HRT4SQRLS]

Have you thought about treating with antibiotics 'just in case' there might be infection somewhere in the body?
I'm not sure what else to do. Praying that things turn around soon. :grouphug

[Nancy in New York]

Have you thought about treating with antibiotics 'just in case' there might be infection somewhere in the body?
I'm not sure what else to do. Praying that things turn around soon. :grouphug

I was thinking the same thing.
At this point, I would try anything.
I'm so sorry you and Hami are going through this. :(

[lukaslolamaus]

Prayers for you and Hami:Love_Icon:grouphug

[JLM27]

He is 7? It could be his heart.

[Milo's Mom]

Mitch, do you have the ability to get blood work done? Some of the things you're describing he's doing/not doing are kidney related. Also a urinalysis would be very helpful right now. Most specifically with the UA we'd be looking for the casts.

[Scooterzmom]

Mitch, do you have the ability to get blood work done? Some of the things you're describing he's doing/not doing are kidney related. Also a urinalysis would be very helpful right now. Most specifically with the UA we'd be looking for the casts.

I think it IS kidney related. Absolutely. Everything points to it. I will ask my vet if she would do it.

[Milo's Mom]

If you think it's his kidney's, fluids fluids fluids fluids. SQ, oral, osmosis, just get them into him. 60-8cc's is what I would aim for. Salt will help his kidneys, so electrostat or hydration fluid mixed with something yummy like applesauce might be accepted.

Heavy things...ensure/formula...too many heavy minerals and will cause the kidneys to have to work harder. The MBD treatment...yup, the calcium will make the kidneys work harder too. Personally, for now, I would stop the MBD treatment (unless you are seeing positive results since starting it)

UA is priority, blood would be secondary but is still very much needed

Early morning urine is the most concentrated and will give the best results in the UA.

[Scooterzmom]

If you think it's his kidney's, fluids fluids fluids fluids. SQ, oral, osmosis, just get them into him. 60-8cc's is what I would aim for. Salt will help his kidneys, so electrostat or hydration fluid mixed with something yummy like applesauce might be accepted.

Heavy things...ensure/formula...too many heavy minerals and will cause the kidneys to have to work harder. The MBD treatment...yup, the calcium will make the kidneys work harder too. Personally, for now, I would stop the MBD treatment (unless you are seeing positive results since starting it)

UA is priority, blood would be secondary but is still very much needed

Early morning urine is the most concentrated and will give the best results in the UA.

I have stopped the calcium treatment since late last night when I realized. I gave him gastrolyte this morning with a touch of honey in it. I also gave him Metaacam and will give him Tramadol just now.

I called my vet... she too said its most likely kidney failure. :(

[Milo's Mom]

NO NSAIDS!!!! Please!

Additionally, Hami should not get any of the following kinds of meds as they are extremely hard on the kidneys. (aminoglycoside antibiotics, sulfa antibiotics, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications, and some others)

[Milo's Mom]

Kidneys issues can be worked with depending on the levels. There are some things that can be done. Is the vet willing to do the UA and/or blood work?

[HRT4SQRLS]

I called my vet... she too said its most likely kidney failure. :(

You won't know for sure unless you get lab work. I would get a blood chemistry (metabolic) panel .... and X-rays while you're there to rule out other things. It could still be a lot of other things. Diabetes, etc. Some issues are treatable. Let hope it is. :grouphug

[Nancy in New York]

I think your getting excellent advice/suggestions
from MM and HRT4SQRLS, I will just add my prayers. :Love_Icon

[HRT4SQRLS]

Thinking about you and Hami all day. :grouphug
Hoping and praying for a positive report.

[Scooterzmom]

Kidneys issues can be worked with depending on the levels. There are some things that can be done. Is the vet willing to do the UA and/or blood work?

Thanks MM :Love_Icon

In what way can the issues be worked with? How extensive is the different care involved? We have VERY limited vet care here you must understand and my resources are so scarce and I'm inancially I'm strapped now, which doesn't help. :(

I've made so many mistakes it seems, I feel horrible already and I don't want to impose a life of misery on him, I want to give him every chance at a good quality of life and for that I need to know as much as possible ahead of time what that might involve. I realize some things cannot be predicted but I'm just trying to find out what is feasible.

EDIT:We would need somebody who could interpret the numbers because my vet is not sure, being quite new at squirrels. Is there anyone qualified to do that on TSB?

[Milo's Mom]

The type of care and possible supplements and dietary changes will be based on what the UA/Sediment and CBC (blood work) indicates.

The UA would be a Urinalysis and sediment; specifically they are looking for casts that would signify kidney damage, the concentration of the urine, and signs of infection. Additionally they will be able to see if he's throwing protein, glucose, or blood in his urine.

The blood work is going to look at everything...infection, kidney and liver enzymes, glucose, blood calcium, pancreatic enzymes and a whole host of other things.

No one is going to be able to provide a recommended treatment without the information these tests will provide.

I understand the vet care is limited; a UA/Sediment and a CBC panel are not advanced veterinary care and they run them all the time. It's kind of a standard thing.

I don't know if there is a specific person here on TSB that can interpret the results, but several of us have vets that may be willing to...but we gotta get them first.

[Scooterzmom]

The type of care and possible supplements and dietary changes will be based on what the UA/Sediment and CBC (blood work) indicates.

The UA would be a Urinalysis and sediment; specifically they are looking for casts that would signify kidney damage, the concentration of the urine, and signs of infection. Additionally they will be able to see if he's throwing protein, glucose, or blood in his urine.

The blood work is going to look at everything...infection, kidney and liver enzymes, glucose, blood calcium, pancreatic enzymes and a whole host of other things.

No one is going to be able to provide a recommended treatment without the information these tests will provide.

I understand the vet care is limited; a UA/Sediment and a CBC panel are not advanced veterinary care and they run them all the time. It's kind of a standard thing.

I don't know if there is a specific person here on TSB that can interpret the results, but several of us have vets that may be willing to...but we gotta get them first.

Spoke to my vet and despite being a Sunday (tough to get vets on Sunday here) we will take Hami in tomorrow for the tests. :w00t In the meanwhile she suggested I keep him hydrated, of course, and start trying to offer some food in liquid form. It's been 3 days now since he had solids - because it was when I brought the food over that I had noticed he had left all of his previous one untouched, even his boo-ball (which he normally loves) and his blocks (even the Henry's, which he also loves). As per my vet's suggestion I've given him some organic squash diluted more than 50-50 with water and a bit of pulverized Teklad, and gave him some Gastrolyte (which will be only for today, tomorrow it'll be onlly water she said). He took 2cc of the squash mix, and 2 of the gastrolyte. She said that was good ant to try and give him some of this nourishment as well as hydration every two hours - hydration being the priority.

[Milo's Mom]

High fiber is good. I used baked sweet potato mixed with Critical Care Fine Grind and water. I pushed water as much as possible and it was how I made everything syringable. I did also add a tiny bit of FV for some yummy factor because I knew she liked it. However, I was advised to keep the formula to an absolute minimum.

Since he's on an all liquid diet you'll want to aim for 10-15% of his body weight in total food/fluids each day. (hence the 60-80cc I mentioned earlier) It is best to break it up into many small feedings throughout the day and night. I used a 2 hour schedule, as well.

Hydration is absolutely critical as if he's not hydrated enough it will be to dangerous to take a blood sample.

Assuming this is his kidneys....kidney issues sometimes make you feel nauseous, so something like Pepcid (Famotidine) might help his tummy feel a little better, which will in turn make him feel like eating.

[Scooterzmom]

High fiber is good. I used baked sweet potato mixed with Critical Care Fine Grind and water. I pushed water as much as possible and it was how I made everything syringable. I did also add a tiny bit of FV for some yummy factor because I knew she liked it. However, I was advised to keep the formula to an absolute minimum.

Since he's on an all liquid diet you'll want to aim for 10-15% of his body weight in total food/fluids each day. (hence the 60-80cc I mentioned earlier) It is best to break it up into many small feedings throughout the day and night. I used a 2 hour schedule, as well.

Hydration is absolutely critical as if he's not hydrated enough it will be to dangerous to take a blood sample.

Assuming this is his kidneys....kidney issues sometimes make you feel nauseous, so something like Pepcid (Famotidine) might help his tummy feel a little better, which will in turn make him feel like eating.

Taking note of all this :thankyou once again :Love_Icon

I will see immediately if we can get some Critical Care Fine Grind and some Pepcid (Pepcid AC ok?) - how much of that should I give him? He's about 600gr. If I can't find the Critical Care, should I stick to the bit of finely ground Teklad diluted in the food and water?

Also, I don't have FV here anymore; we use the Esbilac for our babies, but he's not fond of formula I must say. Would a bit of vanilla yogurt be advisable in small quantity for taste?

[SammysMom]

I am sure that if yogurt will tempt him, it is fine to give. Still praying for recovery. :Love_Icon

[Milo's Mom]

You'll be looking for the active ingredient of Famotidine. Try to find the one that has nothing but the Famotidine. Here it is usually in 10mg tablets and I got off brand. It is dosed at 0.5mg/kg q12-24hr.

I wasn't saying you should go get the Fine Grind I was simply sharing what I did. As long as you are able to get food into him and it has a high fiber content I think it's good. If you can find the Fine Grind I would certainly try it though.

Yes, yogurt would be okay too. I tried it but forgot and offered her the wrong flavor and she refused it. If he doesn't like formula don't worry about it. Again I was simply sharing what I did to get her to eat food.

Go for his favorite foods in a liquid syringable method. Just get food into him and try to sneak some fiber in there too.

[Scooterzmom]

You'll be looking for the active ingredient of Famotidine. Try to find the one that has nothing but the Famotidine. Here it is usually in 10mg tablets and I got off brand. It is dosed at 0.5mg/kg q12-24hr.

I wasn't saying you should go get the Fine Grind I was simply sharing what I did. As long as you are able to get food into him and it has a high fiber content I think it's good. If you can find the Fine Grind I would certainly try it though.

Yes, yogurt would be okay too. I tried it but forgot and offered her the wrong flavor and she refused it. If he doesn't like formula don't worry about it. Again I was simply sharing what I did to get her to eat food.

Go for his favorite foods in a liquid syringable method. Just get food into him and try to sneak some fiber in there too.

I did find some Critical Care Convalescence for Herbivore. It does not say Fine Grind but they assured me it's powdered and will work to be dispensed through the syringe. How much of it should I give him based on about 1TBS of veggies. I'll also be switching to water instead of Gastrolyte by middle of the night.

This time I gave him some organic green beans (1Tbs) diluted in 2 tsp of water and 1/8 tsp of pulverized block. Since I checked and saw that he was not dehydrated this time, I gave him 3cc of it plus 3cc of Gastrolyte. Now the best part: when I put him back in his cage near his water bottle, he began drinking from it and took what must have been at least another 4 or 5cc. !!! I cannot tell you what a relief the sight of that was. His eyes are clearer, his moving is a bit more steady... and mommy's in shock.

Now OK.... He is not by ANY means out of the woods. I do know that and am not counting my chickens one bit yet. But, after watching him at death's door last night, all limp and eyes all glassy, after crying nearly every tear I had in my body last night, I'm just saying that for the first time in the last 36 hours I finally saw a glimmer of hope. :hug I can only pray that his progress keeps up.

So, TSB...tank you for the prayers, :blowkiss but please keep them up. My boy is trying to fight his way back and we are going to do whatever it takes to help him.

EDIT: Hubby just got back and found some Pepcid AC (Famotidine tablets 20mg)!!! Yay!!!! However they are quite small and not scored, so splitting them will be tricky.
Note:So we will have to adjust in order to get the correct dosage. Could you please calculate this for me... I'm such a nervous wreck I don't trust myself.

[Milo's Mom]

I did find some Critical Care Convalescence for Herbivore. It does not say Fine Grind but they assured me it's powdered and will work to be dispensed through the syringe. How much of it should I give him based on about 1TBS of veggies. I'll also be switching to water instead of Gastrolyte by middle of the night.

This time I gave him some organic green beans (1Tbs) diluted in 2 tsp of water and 1/8 tsp of pulverized block. Since I checked and saw that he was not dehydrated this time, I gave him 3cc of it plus 3cc of Gastrolyte. Now the best part: when I put him back in his cage near his water bottle, he began drinking from it and took what must have been at least another 4 or 5cc. !!! I cannot tell you what a relief the sight of that was. His eyes are clearer, his moving is a bit more steady... and mommy's in shock.

Now OK.... He is not by ANY means out of the woods. I do know that and am not counting my chickens one bit yet. But, after watching him at death's door last night, all limp and eyes all glassy, after crying nearly every tear I had in my body last night, I'm just saying that for the first time in the last 36 hours I finally saw a glimmer of hope. :hug I can only pray that his progress keeps up.

So, TSB...tank you for the prayers, :blowkiss but please keep them up. My boy is trying to fight this bac and we are going to do whatever it takes to help him.

As for how much of the CC....I just mixed up a small amount in a separate jar and then every time I made some mixture of food I added a TBSP of the CC to it. If she took it great, if not I added more of the yummy stuff till she took it. My CC was apple banana flavored.

Fantastic that he is drinking on his own. :dance Please keep track of it, but don't back off on what you're getting him to take by syringe. The amount you're giving him is the absolute minimum...anything he takes on his own is extra and is needed. Now if he sits down at his food dish and goes to town nomming it all down...that's a little different. I'm really happy that he's showing such good progress. :hug


EDIT: I was feeding 10cc's at a time so the 1TBSP or so of the CC was added to 9ish cc's of yummy stuff

[Milo's Mom]

EDIT: Hubby just got back and found some Pepcid AC (Famotidine tablets 20mg)!!! Yay!!!! However they are quite small and not scored, so splitting them will be tricky.
Note:So we will have to adjust in order to get the correct dosage. Could you please calculate this for me... I'm such a nervous wreck I don't trust myself.

Just saw this. Hang on I'll send it in a PM


EDIT: Sent

[HRT4SQRLS]

Relieved to hear that Hami is a tiny bit better! :grouphug

[SammysMom]

What a wonderful update! Prayers continue! :grouphug:Love_IconHami & Mama:Love_Icon:grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

At 9:30 tonight Hami had another 4cc+ of Gastrolyte and a mix of squash and green beans baby food diluted in water, plus about 1 to 2cc of water at his own bottle.

Then, he nibbled on a piece of avocado and of sweet potato!!!! He actually managed to sit up - hunched over and kinda wobbly but hey! he did sit up on his own and actually ate on his own!! :bliss

My baby wants to live!!! He's fighting this back and he's trying! :w00t :clap :w00t Now I'm tearing up because I'm so happy. :Dance

:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou Milo's Mom and all.


Ok, ok...I know, and I'm still not counting my chickens :) I'm much too scared of seeing him go back downhill. But this is just the most beautiful sight in the world. After watching the life drain out of him... to actually see it come back into him :Love_Icon :grin3 :Love_Icon

Next feeding at 12am (since he finished around 10), and I'm still focusing on the liquids. It will be the last Gastrolyte shot (the 24hrs being over after that) but I'll be giving him water (flavored with fruit juice) with baby veggies from this point on. Got some sweet potato and some carrots, organic, to add to the collection. This time I will be adding the Critical Care, husband is on his way back with it, and some Pepcid.

[island rehabber]

Prayers and good, happy squirrel energies flowing from my house to yours, Miche! :grouphug:grouphug:grouphug

[SammysMom]

Your tears are not falling alone... Hope is a wonderful thing....

[Nancy in New York]

This is a fantastic update, keep it up!~:blowkiss
Prayers continue for Hami and for you Miche,
you're both doing great!. :hug

[Rexie]

So happy to see some improvements with Hami. You are a fantastic mom and nurse

[Diggie's Friend]

http://www.2ndchance.info/ratkidney.htm Quite allot of good info on rats with lowered kidney function, which others posted consider it likely is. I hope some of it might be helpful in supporting your dear Hami. Be sure to read down to the bottom.

[Scooterzmom]

Hami is moving about in his cage today. He's not back to his old self - I don't expect he will ever be :( - but he's not laying limp at least. He even sat up and groomed himself. He's wobbly, sort of hunched over but this is a 100% change from yesterday.

He really does not like the Critical Care. :yuck The one I have is quite pasty when made, and it's got papaya and pineapple flavour, smells very herb-like even to me - and so obviously not to his liking that it's been more difficult to feed him his veggies overnight and this morning. He does have more energy, yes, and that makes my little man fight more against the syringe.

All in all, while he does seem a bit better, the progress has not moved up at this point. More like status quo from last night... welllll with a bit more mobility.

My vet has offered to do some tests today but now I really hesitate to bring him over there - it's a 45 minute drive each way, and not being an exotic's clinic, with dogs there and cats, the noise etc - not to mention the procedures themselves - I fear it might set him back a lot just because of the stress. I think I would llike to see if he can make a bit more progress at least today before putting him through that.

I'll call the vet and discuss it with her.

[Scooterzmom]

Would it be premature to spread the hydration/feeding every 4 hours or should I still do it every 2 hours?

[SammysMom]

So glad Hami is still fighting the good fight! What about going to 3 hours for hydration? See how he does and proceed from there. Keep up the good work, both of you! :w00t:Love_Icon:w00t

[Diggie's Friend]

To help fight the good fight I thought to share this here with you.

Sometime back my Mom, who has reduced kidney function due to her age, decided to start eating allot of raw green foods many of which were goitrogenic, known to impact the function of the kidneys in older individuals. Her scheduled test for her kidney functioned following her change in diet showed that her kidney function had suddenly dropped. Her doctor asked what she had changed in her diet, and when she told her she was eating raw goitrogenic vegetables, her doctor told her to not eat them anymore, not even cooked, as they were impacting her kidney function. Her next kidney function test showed the doctor was right, for her kidney function returned to the level it was prior to her deciding to go more-healthy.

What may work for younger animals doesn't work well with middle aged or older ones that have reduced kidney function due to their advancing age. This isn't to say all green foods are not to be offered, but this group most definitely lowers thyroid function in older individuals, and in connection with the function of the kidneys lowers that as well. The list of goitrogenic vegetables can be found online, or I can put a link here if you like for your convenience.

Healthy comfy foods, that work for older individuals that he may accept, include baked winter squash, like butternut, or acorn; cutting squash up it up small into small chunks makes it cook much faster, and youi can mash it up if needed. Whole fat yogurt is well balanced in calcium and phosphorus; those with lower sugar work best not against calcium uptake. Stonyfield has a whole fat yogurt in vanilla that has no additives, that has no added sugars, and is not super high in protein as many yogurts are. Higher fat and lower protein, but not super low protein, is noted by veterinarians to support those older animals with lowered kidney function.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/small_animal/nutrition/client_info_sheets/chronic_renal_disease.cfm

You can put nutrients into the yogurt; or grind up some block and add it in. Fruits are easier to digest, and will give him a good source of energy, plus they contain amino acids that support health. Applesauce supports the uptake of calcium. Steamed organic sweet peas are a good soft green food fully cooked. These foods have a higher moisture content. If he has any teeth issues these foods won't put him off eating them as harder foods can. You can crush organic pecan and add it into the yogurt that makes it more appealing by scent. This nut is higher in fat than protein.

Organic certified nuts aren't fumigated, as others nuts which are required to be fumigated are by law, I was told by a vender. The kidneys work to filter toxins, yet when lowered in function don't work as well. Organic diets in rats have been found in research to support good weight and a healthy immune system in support of longevity.

I hope this helps.

[PennyCash]

Hami is moving about in his cage today. He's not back to his old self - I don't expect he will ever be :( - but he's not laying limp at least. He even sat up and groomed himself. He's wobbly, sort of hunched over but this is a 100% change from yesterday.

He really does not like the Critical Care. :yuck The one I have is quite pasty when made, and it's got papaya and pineapple flavour, smells very herb-like even to me - and so obviously not to his liking that it's been more difficult to feed him his veggies overnight and this morning. He does have more energy, yes, and that makes my little man fight more against the syringe.

All in all, while he does seem a bit better, the progress has not moved up at this point. More like status quo from last night... welllll with a bit more mobility.

My vet has offered to do some tests today but now I really hesitate to bring him over there - it's a 45 minute drive each way, and not being an exotic's clinic, with dogs there and cats, the noise etc - not to mention the procedures themselves - I fear it might set him back a lot just because of the stress. I think I would llike to see if he can make a bit more progress at least today before putting him through that.

I'll call the vet and discuss it with her.

While I understand what your saying about giving Hami more time to possibly improve more there's also the possibility of him backsliding. So, I'm just going to throw this out there. If Hami were mine we would be heading to have the tests done today. I would love for my vet to offer a Sun just for my baby. Solid one on one time without additional clients and interruptions. Plus, there would be a possibility of finding out what was wrong. I'm a firm believer that once you know what your dealing with you can plan a course of action. This is just my opinion and what you and your vet decide is between y'all. I'll continue to pray up a storm for continued improvement and healing thoughts :grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

Hami is managing to drinkbut this time the news are not good.

Once I waited 4 hours (last night) then after feeding/hydrating him by mouth twice at 2 hour interval this morning I waited 3 hours but finally saw that I have to do it every 2 hours still. I can barely make him eat now. He has nibbled on some sweet potato on his own, and on a sugar pea, but that's all he touched. :( He goes to his water bottle to drink, some 3 to 4 cc at a time, and he pees a lot - even gave me a couple tiny poopies (mouse size) but that's it.

My worst fears are coming true: I'm afraid he's sliding back down the hill. :Cry

Please... I'm getting desperate. What can I do??? Does anybody have any suggestions?

[Milo's Mom]

Hami is managing to drinkbut this time the news are not good.

Once I waited 4 hours (last night) then after feeding/hydrating him by mouth twice at 2 hour interval this morning I waited 3 hours but finally saw that I have to do it every 2 hours still. I can barely make him eat now. He has nibbled on some sweet potato on his own, and on a sugar pea, but that's all he touched. :( He goes to his water bottle to drink, some 3 to 4 cc at a time, and he pees a lot - even gave me a couple tiny poopies (mouse size) but that's it.

My worst fears are coming true: I'm afraid he's sliding back down the hill. :Cry

Please... I'm getting desperate. What can I do??? Does anybody have any suggestions?

Go to the vet and get the tests done so we know what we are dealing with and are able to effectively treat, please.

[Scooterzmom]

While I understand what your saying about giving Hami more time to possibly improve more there's also the possibility of him backsliding. So, I'm just going to throw this out there. If Hami were mine we would be heading to have the tests done today. I would love for my vet to offer a Sun just for my baby. Solid one on one time without additional clients and interruptions. Plus, there would be a possibility of finding out what was wrong. I'm a firm believer that once you know what your dealing with you can plan a course of action. This is just my opinion and what you and your vet decide is between y'all. I'll continue to pray up a storm for continued improvement and healing thoughts :grouphug

Just so we are clear... my vet offered yesterday to do tests today, Ine the meanwhile Hami did improve but I was afraid the trip would make him get worse again. That clinic is alwaysopen on Sundays. No such thing as one on one time peacefully with the vet. They have all kinds of regular clients(i.e. cats and dogs) coming and it is very noisy because they're one of the very few clinics open on Sundays; things is , they always are open on Sunday but they're on shortened hours and on short staff on Sundays. By the time I noticed he had slipped back I wouldn't have had time to make it there. It's a 45 minute drive there :(

I will definitely go tomorrow. I meant well, wanted to save him stress and the risk of consequences that trip could have brought on, and now I find it was wrong of me, and I can't forgive myself. I don't want to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to do my best here... I have tried to follow every piece of advice and act for what I believed was in my baby's best interest.

[Milo's Mom]

When kidneys are not functioning properly one of the things they are not able to perform effectively is filtering out the phosphorus and it accumulates, driving down the level of essential calcium. Bad kidneys also under produce VitD3, which is essential for calcium absorption. This process or there the lack of is called secondary hyperparathyroidism....we commonly call it MBD.

The problem...we can't just boost the calcium cause the extra calcium will kill the already reduced kidney function, so we have to boost the D3 and block the phosphorus. In order to do this properly we need to know what the levels are, we need to know how bad things are, we need to know how much if any kidney capacity he's got left. This is why I keep saying GO TO THE VET!

Usually, by the time we hoomins notice a problem with the kidneys they've already lost 75% of their function...meaning only 25% of his kidney capacity is left. We are fighting time here...

I understand the stress involved and I understand the financial issues, and I understand the travel/distance, I hope you understand the severity of the problem Hami is having and how critical it is to have tests done.

Mitch, I am begging you.

I just went through this with Ellie....each of our vet trips were in excess of 4 hours RT of driving, at least 4 hours at the office each time and in the last 48 hours of her life I spent more than $900 (I spent my mortgage payment on her). I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, I'm telling you this because I DO UNDERSTAND and I want you to know WHY/HOW I understand.

EDIT: Your posts of Hami and what he is doing and not doing are like re-living the last few days with Ellie. My heart is breaking all over again and I still haven't found all of the pieces from Ellie. Please Mitch, please, please, please go to the vet tomorrow. PLEASE!

[Scooterzmom]

When kidneys are not functioning properly one of the things they are not able to perform effectively is filtering out the phosphorus and it accumulates, driving down the level of essential calcium. Bad kidneys also under produce VitD3, which is essential for calcium absorption. This process or there the lack of is called secondary hyperparathyroidism....we commonly call it MBD.

The problem...we can't just boost the calcium cause the extra calcium will kill the already reduced kidney function, so we have to boost the D3 and block the phosphorus. In order to do this properly we need to know what the levels are, we need to know how bad things are, we need to know how much if any kidney capacity he's got left. This is why I keep saying GO TO THE VET!

Usually, by the time we hoomins notice a problem with the kidneys they've already lost 75% of their function...meaning only 25% of his kidney capacity is left. We are fighting time here...

I understand the stress involved and I understand the financial issues, and I understand the travel/distance, I hope you understand the severity of the problem Hami is having and how critical it is to have tests done.

Mitch, I am begging you.

I just went through this with Ellie....each of our vet trips were in excess of 4 hours RT of driving, at least 4 hours at the office each time and in the last 48 hours of her life I spent more than $900 (I spent my mortgage payment on her). I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, I'm telling you this because I DO UNDERSTAND and I want you to know WHY/HOW I understand.

EDIT: Your posts of Hami and what he is doing and not doing are like re-living the last few days with Ellie. My heart is breaking all over again and I still haven't found all of the pieces from Ellie. Please Mitch, please, please, please go to the vet tomorrow. PLEASE!

I assure you: I amm going to the vet tomorrow! It's not a matter of what I'd need to spend, I will cash my pension fund if I have to!!! It's not a matter of how long a trip it is for me, I was thinking how stressful the 45 minutes would be onhim when I had decided to wait one more day. As I said, by the time I noticed he was going downhill again it was too late to even GET to the vet today, they close at 3.

I'm doing what I can here. I KNOW you are trying to help, and I am EXTREMELY thankful, but please, you've been through this, you know how hard it is already, at least try to understand and trust that I am trying and have done what I thought was bests for him all the way. I am working with what I can here.

EDIT: The vet called after the clinic closed, she said she would not have been able to do the tests today anyway because they were too busy. I spoke to her at length, she told me to continue with the hydration/feeding protocol and that yes, tomorrow she will be able to do a urine test.

[Milo's Mom]

that yes, tomorrow she will be able to do a urine test.

What about the blood panel and xrays?

If you are going in tomorrow, I strongly suggest taking his morning urine to the vet. Potty him over a plate or bowl, then suck up the urine in a brand new un-used syringe. They are going to need at least 1ml. I would take every drop you get from him...if they don't need it they can throw it away. The morning urine is the strongest and should provide the best results. After you capture the urine in the syringe, put it in the fridge to keep it cool till you get it to the vet.

[Scooterzmom]

What about the blood panel and xrays?

If you are going in tomorrow, I strongly suggest taking his morning urine to the vet. Potty him over a plate or bowl, then suck up the urine in a brand new un-used syringe. They are going to need at least 1ml. I would take every drop you get from him...if they don't need it they can throw it away. The morning urine is the strongest and should provide the best results. After you capture the urine in the syringe, put it in the fridge to keep it cool till you get it to the vet.

She's not sure she can, she said but that also said that she will try. X-rays will depend she'd have to anesthetize him. All in all, she will see him at least and do the best she can, she said.

At this point I'm simply glad he will be seen and will make sure to collect his urine.

[Diggie's Friend]

In regards to my previous post, I thought to add it is the Plain Whole "Stonyfield" Yogurt that is lower in sugar, not the one with vanilla added. Yet to the plain can be added a small drop of organic vanilla. It has just a trace of lactose. It has a very creamy consistency I like it over the gel-like consistency of the "Green Valley" brand, that is "Lactose free"; yet both include probiotics that digest the lactose in yogurt. Overall the plain "Stonyfield" whole yogurt is the lower of the two in sugar and protein.

http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smooth-creamy/whole-milk-plain-32oz
(I saw it noted that Target carries this brand, some other stores do also.)

https://greenvalleylactosefree.com/product/lactose-free-vanilla-yogurt
(This is harder to find; Whole Foods carries it.)

[PennyCash]

Just so we are clear... my vet offered yesterday to do tests today, Ine the meanwhile Hami did improve but I was afraid the trip would make him get worse again. That clinic is alwaysopen on Sundays. No such thing as one on one time peacefully with the vet. They have all kinds of regular clients(i.e. cats and dogs) coming and it is very noisy because they're one of the very few clinics open on Sundays; things is , they always are open on Sunday but they're on shortened hours and on short staff on Sundays. By the time I noticed he had slipped back I wouldn't have had time to make it there. It's a 45 minute drive there :(

I will definitely go tomorrow. I meant well, wanted to save him stress and the risk of consequences that trip could have brought on, and now I find it was wrong of me, and I can't forgive myself. I don't want to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to do my best here... I have tried to follow every piece of advice and act for what I believed was in my baby's best interest.

Please Forgive me Scooterzmom. This is the first time that I've heard of a vet being open on Sun. I made a incorrect assumption thinking that your vet was going to have you come in when it was quiet.
Considering that Sun would be busier than usual I might have made the same choice. It makes me all sorts of nervous to be in a vets waiting room with my fluffy tailed darling. Seems like there's always at least one overly friendly dog with very lax owners. I worry about the added stress for my baby with a dog much to close. So I do understand.
I also understand the 45 min drive since that's how far my vet is without any traffic.
Just know that I'm praying :grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

Please Forgive me Scooterzmom. This is the first time that I've heard of a vet being open on Sun. I made a incorrect assumption thinking that your vet was going to have you come in when it was quiet.
Considering that Sun would be busier than usual I might have made the same choice. It makes me all sorts of nervous to be in a vets waiting room with my fluffy tailed darling. Seems like there's always at least one overly friendly dog with very lax owners. I worry about the added stress for my baby with a dog much to close. So I do understand.
I also understand the 45 min drive since that's how far my vet is without any traffic.
Just know that I'm praying :grouphug

It's OK. Like I said to someone else earlier today, sometime we don't have all the facts, and I understand that when we don't know it may appear easier to make a different decision. Now that I know there was no ill intention on your part I do appreciate that you say you understand and respect my point now :hug It means a lot to me, it's like living on a roller coaster right now and it's easy for us to feel alone and blame ourselves - believe me. We are not looking for pity, it is something all of us on TSB have lived through, or will, and self-pity would serve nothing. It's just that there are times when some extra compassion is so truly appreciated in order to find the extra strength we need. :glomp :Love_Icon

[JLM27]

He couldn't possibly have parasites, could he? Just thinking of the lethargy. You can get nematodes (human babies too) just from playing on the floor.

[Scooterzmom]

He couldn't possibly have parasites, could he? Just thinking of the lethargy. You can get nematodes (human babies too) just from playing on the floor.
I'll make sure to raise the issue with the vet tomorrow.

[Diggie's Friend]

Some suggestions for the Vet day.

Years ago a squirrel we were caring for needed a diagnostic x-ray. I requested that the Vet's office let me hold the squirrel while they took the x ray of the area they needed. I told them didn't care about getting a bit of x ray, and was not pregnant, nor possibly so either, so they allowed me to be there holding the squirrel. I used a thin blanket to cover the face, and for it to rest upon, not have to slip on the table. That way you aren't fighting that surface and have more control when holding the animal. It also helped the squirrel not to panic, not then having to look at all the strange stuff around them. I talked to the squirrel in a soft low slow voice, having eminded those working near the squirrel to keep their voices down. It worked fine, we got the films.

That said, this isn't always how it goes those with each animal. Knowing how your boy is doing and listening to the vet and they to you is needful.

Since not all offices will allow this, should you want to do this, or think it is doable, then ask the office if you can do it this way, telling them your concern of putting him under. If they allow it and you are still ok with it when you get in there, the decision then will be yours.

Also ask to get into a room immediately, or wait outside till one becomes available. Then when I arrived if the room wasn't ready I would just go out and wait for the attendant to tell me when it was. I got there and made sure I had my keys, and locked the doors and went in, then came out and got the squirrel. No other pets got near the squirrel, it all went well.

If you can get some food in him before you leave, like some yogurt, that would help him with stress. If you have some Rescue Remedy, swab it on the inside of his outer ear with a Q-tip.

[PennyCash]

Diggies friend offered some wonderful tips. Just know that I'm praying for you and Hami. :grouphug :grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

Getting ready to head for the vet's. Calling her before I leave and I have printed all the thread and highlighted all the info I think might be pertinent and will show it to her.

Last night he got a lot more energetic :w00t and ate a bit on his own - he had 2 cherries which he practically snatched out of my hand :) He also nibbled on some sweet potato and a sugar pea. Not what I'd call eating like an ogre but that is more than he had in days. This morning around 6 I managed to collect his urine (he did poo too, nice ones - good color and not dry) and again he ate on his own... half a cherry, then a bit later I gave him some Pepcid and het had some romaine, a bit of sweet potato and half a cherry tomato. He also drank from his water bottle.

I'll keep you all informed. Pray for us, this will be a big day for him and all those who love him.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Anxiously waiting for good news. :grouphug

[Diggie's Friend]

It is encouraging that he is eating again, and supportive for him being tested.

[Scooterzmom]

Problem for the blood tests:

Vet says the machine they use at the clinic for blood tests needs to be calibrated for the correct animal, and it has no calibration for squirrels. :( She wants to know: if it were possible to calibrate it for rats would the results they'd get from that be adequate enough to draw a reliable conclusion?

[Scooterzmom]

My vet is in consultation at the moment but...

Would anyone be able to interpret the numbers regardless of what it would be calibrated for? We wouldn't know exactly if some things are too low or too high for a squirrel, in other words, but based on the numbers we'd get could anyone contact a vet there and give us a proper interpretation if need be?

[Diggie's Friend]

I have the rat data on blood etc. values in my files, take me a bit to find it. The data on the Gray squirrrel available as far as blood and serum values I should have the pdf for also. Not sure if that is what she is looking for, but I think I can post those here.

[Diggie's Friend]

This is a file I found on rat stats I will get the other one on Squirrels in a moment back to you.

[Scooterzmom]

I have the rat data on blood etc. values in my files, take me a bit to find it. The data on the Gray squirrrel available as far as blood and serum values I should have the pdf for also. Not sure if that is what she is looking for, but I think I can post those here.

Much appreciated, will pass the msg on to the vet. :thankyou :Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

288968

I have a number of research studies in my files on kidney stones in rats, should that turn out to be a concern.

[riefderrico]

Getting ready to head for the vet's. Calling her before I leave and I have printed all the thread and highlighted all the info I think might be pertinent and will show it to her.

Last night he got a lot more energetic :w00t and ate a bit on his own - he had 2 cherries which he practically snatched out of my hand :) He also nibbled on some sweet potato and a sugar pea. Not what I'd call eating like an ogre but that is more than he had in days. This morning around 6 I managed to collect his urine (he did poo too, nice ones - good color and not dry) and again he ate on his own... half a cherry, then a bit later I gave him some Pepcid and het had some romaine, a bit of sweet potato and half a cherry tomato. He also drank from his water bottle.

I'll keep you all informed. Pray for us, this will be a big day for him and all those who love him.

It could be the cherries! My Missy has had a severe reaction every year during cherry season - I don't know why and that is the only thing we've been able to narrow it down to. She gets lathargic, dehydrated (because she vomits), won't move/eat/drink and her face gets poofy. I've had to take her to the vet 3x for this before we figured it out (she will be 5 this year). She has not had cherries in the last year/year and a half and we have not had this issue. (knock on wood) Someone told me it has something to do with the pits and arcenic traces even though I pitted them. Like it poisons them and affects their kidneys.

[Diggie's Friend]

Thanks for sharing your experience with cherries in the diet of your squirrel; I have never heard of that happening, good to know!

As you wrote, the pit is toxic; it contains cyanide, as do the pits of apricots, and peaches, and plums. Apple seed contain arsenic.

Should a squirrel not have a problem with this fruit, it is still prudent to only feed a small portion of one cherry one day out of the week, just to be safe, and not from a source of chopped cherries labeled, "pitted, may contain pit fragments".
The flesh of cherries also contains cyanide, as do the flesh of apricots, peaches, that also have toxic pits. Almonds, spinach, cassava, and lima beans also contain low levels of this same toxic compound.

Cyanocobalamin, the yeast source form of Vitamin B-12, also contains some cyanide, that when metabolized releases a small amount of cyanide into the bloodstream. Best not to use this form. Rather use Methylcobalamin in powder form, not the high sugar-syrup source, as a source for this vital nutrient supplementation.

[Diggie's Friend]

Due to running out to time to edit part of my post wasn't completed. It should have read:

"The flesh of cherries contains low levels of cyanide, as does the flesh of apricots, peaches, and plums, which like the cherry have toxic pits. Almonds, spinach, cassava, and lima beans also contain low levels of this same toxic compound."

Apple seeds also contain cyanide. Apples, and the juice, and the sauce, have been found to contain arsenic, a used more commonly in the past, but still reside in the soil. Organically grown for this reason is the best choice for fruits and vegetables.

[Scooterzmom]

Thank you for your input re. cherries and apples etc.

Hami had not had cherries at all this season when his problem began. We gave him a half cherry - no pit of course, simply to try and stimulate his appetite (because we know he loves them) as well as for the hydration side, and in that respect it worked. Seemed to trigger his appetite and he has now decided to start eating some of his veggies again. He has also begun to drink from his water bottle regularly now.

He's more mobile too, moving about his cage - he's currently in something much smaller than his usual cage - and he's much more alert. I keep my fingers crossed, I keep an ultra close watch on him, and we are awaiting the results of tests from the vet.

We sure can still use the prayers as this is looking like a real long road ahead for my boy.

[Scooterzmom]

BTW If I sounded and/or acted testy with some of you over the last couple of days, please forgive me. This has been the hardest thing I've faced in years, it felt like reliving what happened with Scooter and I was panicking. Again I'm sorry.

There never is a good time to face such things, but when this happened amidst the pressures of coping with the results of the violent rainstorms of late (floods for a lot of people, we only have to redo a roof and part of an apartment, so I should not complain) ... that and a list of more of life's sh** that seems to pile up all at once, we could barely cope before Hami got sick, so I've been running on no sleep to speak of.

I'm not looking for excuses, I just realize that I may have given some people here the wrong impression and for that I owe some apologies. I'm very sorry. :peace1

P.S. Re. the cherries... I definitely will keep the info in mind!!!

[SammysMom]

You do NOT owe anyone an apology! :nono You are facing all of our worst fears and doing it as well as any of us can hope to do.
Prayers for that sweet Hami continue...:grouphug:Love_Icon:grouphug

[Diggie's Friend]

Tree fruit is a real pickmeup when appetite is low, providing a ready source of energy. Very glad to hear he is doing better, and made it through the testing well. Keep an eye on him, if he gets lethargic give him more fresh fruit as this helps to support his blood sugar that is needful when going into and coming out of a stressful situation.

[Scooterzmom]

Tree fruit is a real pickmeup when appetite is low, providing a ready source of energy. Very glad to hear he is doing better, and made it through the testing well. Keep an eye on him, if he gets lethargic give him more fresh fruit as this helps to support his blood sugar that is needful when going into and coming out of a stressful situation.

👍

[Chickenlegs]

I've been lurking. I have nothing to add but sure am glad your boy is feeling better. Will watch to see what the tests show. Having him feel better must be a balm to your heart. :Love_Icon

[HRT4SQRLS]

We all understand how stressful it is when our babies are sick.
I sure am glad Hami is better. Praying that he continues to improve.
I hope the tests will give an answer.

[Scooterzmom]

Tonight Hami is moving about his cage, and over the course of the last few hours has been eating on his own, nomming on a bit of romaine, a small piece of sweet potato, a green grape, organic sunflower shoots, and a small piece of zucchini! He has also been drinking very well on his own from his water bottle. He's been giving us some nice clear pipis and nice poopies, and his eyes are clear. He ven stood up on his hind legs, placing his front paws on the side bars of his cage! :clap

In other words, while we do know he still has a long road ahead, at least my boy has been fighting real hard and he is continuing to show signs of improvement! So, I won't run around jumping up and down screaming victory yet - well ok, just a little happy dance at least :dance but I'll take signs of improvement over anything at this point in time. :)

Thank you everyone for the support and prayers, and please keep it up, Hami and I have all of you to thank for this. :blowkiss

Can't wait to find out what the test results will say. I'm hoping... I have to keep hoping... I pray and hope... :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

What a fantastic update!:w00t
Keep up the great work, both of you!
:Love_Icon Hami :Love_Icon

[SammysMom]

Wonderful report! So very glad he is feeling better...prayers continue for both of you...:Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

I found the note on arsenic in apples made by my fellow member was good to share. I thought to follow that up by sharing this article here.

https://www.wired.com/2012/06/arsenic-pesticides-in-our-food/

My note that apple seeds contain arsenic wasn't to infer that they come by that compound naturally. And since we all know not to feed the seeds, it was a mute point for me to post, (having a senior moment). As for some apples, and apple products containing arsenic, that sadly is all to true! Some of that is from residual amounts left in the soil from it having been used many years ago. Presently arsenic is still being used by some growers, yet now in limited amounts in non organic groves.

For further info on arsenic contamination in our foods, read: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/01/arsenic-in-your-juice/index.htm

[PennyCash]

Today's reports received some thankful tears! Improving is a relief even though I know there might be some backsliding (really hope not) but I always think that when there's improvement, there's at least some renewal of strength to fight another day. Lord knows that I've been on the sick baby rollercoaster plenty myself and no how that worry and helplessness wears on you. I'll continue to pray for continued improvement and good news from the tests :grouphug

[Diggie's Friend]

Such a remarkable turn around on so many levels. Hopefully your thread won't be here in the emergency forum much longer.

[riefderrico]

Good to hear that Hami is feeling better. Will still be keeping you guys in our prayers for speedy recovery.

Diggie - thank you for clarification, I couldn't remember where to find the exact info or terminology I just remembered it was some sort of "poison" in there.

[DixiesMom]

Tonight Hami is moving about his cage, and over the course of the last few hours has been eating on his own, nomming on a bit of romaine, a small piece of sweet potato, a green grape, organic sunflower shoots, and a small piece of zucchini! He has also been drinking very well on his own from his water bottle. He's been giving us some nice clear pipis and nice poopies, and his eyes are clear. He ven stood up on his hind legs, placing his front paws on the side bars of his cage! :clap

In other words, while we do know he still has a long road ahead, at least my boy has been fighting real hard and he is continuing to show signs of improvement! So, I won't run around jumping up and down screaming victory yet - well ok, just a little happy dance at least :dance but I'll take signs of improvement over anything at this point in time. :)

Thank you everyone for the support and prayers, and please keep it up, Hami and I have all of you to thank for this. :blowkiss

Can't wait to find out what the test results will say. I'm hoping... I have to keep hoping... I pray and hope... :Love_Icon

Fantastic news Michelyne !! :Love_Icon
So happy to ready that this morning!! I know there is a long road ahead still, but this sure is worth a happy dance!! :bliss
I hope things continue to improve. I cannot wait to know the test results!
I am praying and hoping with you. Don't forget I am just a phone call away If you need to talk
:blowkiss

[Diggie's Friend]

You are welcome riefderrico. The toxin is in the cherry pits alright; good that you brought that to attention here as a possible issue, just in case it was related to his condition. When cherries are out of season you can still get them frozen in bags; and though the bags are labeled, 'pitted', they also note that they "may contain pit fragments", as the pitting machines don't do such a good job removing all of the pits. Even a small piece of pit can be an issue for an older animal if ingested, as their kidneys, which filter out toxins, no longer are at peak function by middle age.

[Scooterzmom]

Got the numbers back from the urine tests but the vet wants to take another one, so as to be more sure of what we may be dealing with. According to the results Hami's glucose was quite elevated. However, when he was being rehydrated he did get some honey in the water (for calories) once he got off the gastrolyte and that might be what throws the values off. So, she wants to do another urinalysis tomorrow.

The results we did get today said:
Urine density 1.012
PH level 9
Proteins 1+
Glucose (which is high) 3+
There were a few white blood cells (very few ) she said and only a few bacteria.

As she said, she doesn't really have the values for a squirrel, so, other than the high glucose which could indicate diabetes, she's not sure what we,re looking at.

Would anybody have the normal values we should see for a squirrel?

[HRT4SQRLS]

The high glucose is probably significant. It would be good to get that repeated.

I have some normal values somewhere. Let me see if I can find them.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Here is the link with the values. It's in this thread.
https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?40303-Normal-Blood-Chemistry-Values

Here are the urine values cropped out of the article.
289029

Note that only 2 squirrels had glucose in the urine.

[Scooterzmom]

Here is the link with the values. It's in this thread.
https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?40303-Normal-Blood-Chemistry-Values

Here are the urine values cropped out of the article.
289029

Note that only 2 squirrels had glucose in the urine.

:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou

I'm printing this as well as the full document for my vet!!!!

My boy is still doing well, eating and drinking, lively... :) . :dance

He looked bored in that smaller cage - Scooter's Marshall Mansion - when normally his own cage is 8'L x 6'H x 4'W so I let him out of his cage to handplay with momma a little bit tonight. He was thrilled - quite normal he would feel cramped in the smaller cage but in order to best keep an eye on him at this point, and to be able to collect the samples he has to remain in the small one another day or 2.

We installed a new floor and some new ramps in his big cage - just in case, instead of his ladders - for when he returns to it, trying to make it easier for him to move about during his recovery.

We will be running another analysis, yes, because of our concern about that glucose level.

[Diggie's Friend]

I posted the link to the pdf for this same study on this thread the other day, or was it another you were looking for? The 2nd link has the more comprehensive rat data. Scroll down to read. 289037289038

[Diggie's Friend]

Sounds like your boy has a very good life, lots of love, and lots of care. :Love_Icon Super size for a habitat cage too!

[Scooterzmom]

I posted the link to the pdf for this same study on this thread the other day, or was it another you were looking for? The 2nd link has the more comprehensive rat data. Scroll down to read. 289037289038

Thank you again :Love_Icon

I was in such a state I guess I missed the file. Got it now and will print it and take to my vet.

[Diggie's Friend]

I know how that is, that is why I wanted to make sure you saw it. I wrote detailed on being sure to lock the car etc, for I have been there myself, don't want to lock yourself out, or lock them in. Sadly in this area there actually have been a number of incidents of pets being stollen out of cars at Vet offices and being held for monitary ranson. Utterly deplorable!!

[Scooterzmom]

I know how that is, that is why I wanted to make sure you saw it. I wrote detailed on being sure to lock the car etc, for I have been there myself, don't want to lock yourself out, or lock them in. Sadly in this area there actually have been a number of incidents of pets being stollen out of cars at Vet offices and being held for monitary ranson. Utterly deplorable!!

Thanks again.

Not a chance they could steal him! For today we don't have to go back to the clinic but, if I do at any point and if they want to steal my boy, they'll have to kidnap me :bash I'm glued to him and his transporter

[JLM27]

Whew! I can stop holding my breath. I was scared for Hami and I'm relieved he appears to be recovering. Thanks for keeping us updated. Is there a picture of your sweet boy?

[Scooterzmom]

My boy is still doing fine and I keep my fingers crossed that he will keep it up. He's eating well, is even eating his blocks - giving him the Teklad 2018 now, trying to keep the protein levels lower I've ordered the 2014 to that effect.

I will try to take pics today so you guys can see that sweet little face who is so thankful for all the help TSB memebers have given us. :)

In the meanwhile here are a couple - not recent - just to tease y'all. ;)

289073
289074
289075

[Nancy in New York]

:klunk289076:klunk289076:klunk289076:klunk289076:k lunk289076:klunk289076:klunk289076:klunk289076:klu nk289076

:Love_Icon Hami :Love_Icon

[Cubby]

Awww, is there anything cuter than a sleeping squirrel? :Love_Icon:Love_Icon

[Scooterzmom]

Awww, is there anything cuter than a sleeping squirrel? :Love_Icon:Love_Icon

The sleeping pic was taken the day he arrived. I can remember that as if it was yesterday.

[HRT4SQRLS]

I'm so happy to hear that Hami is making progress. I didn't realize Hami was short for Hamilton. :grin2 That's quite a trendy and sophisticated name. :tilt

Mitch, if you want to keep a check on Hami's urine chemistries, especially the glucose, you can purchase test strips on Amazon and monitor it yourself. It might be a good idea to do that.
https://www.amazon.com/Parameter-Strips-Infection-Diabetes-Sticks/dp/B01M26O93Q/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1496365525&sr=8-17&keywords=urine+test+strips

[Diggie's Friend]

In light of this research article here below, I amend my recommendation for the use of a whole fat yogurt I noted a couple of days ago, to use the Low fat source from this same company; this for both older, and young squirrel adults. Stonyfield is my favorite, as it has both a good level of protein, with lowered fats and naturally low occurring sugar.

http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smooth-creamy/lowfat-plain-32oz

My apologies to those that have read my initial recommendation of whole fat yogurt for older tree squirrels.

One reason why I see it is not good to use the whole fat yogurt for older squirrels is well explained by the conclusions of this article on studies done on age related kidney disease in older rats.

I share this article in respect to all, so that whatever view presently held in regard to this health issue, each person can review the research themselves, and come to their own conclusion as to what its findings support. Ultimately it is up to each person to decide what they will provide by way of diet towards the goal of supporting the health of the squirrel(s) in their care
.
https://www.nap.edu/read/9620/chapter/11

Here is an excerpt from this article:

"In rats, the development of chronic renal failure with age is nearly universal (Coleman et al., 1977; Hayashida et al., 1986). The predominant lesion is glomerulosclerosis. Because this process was apparently attenuated by protein restriction (see review by Masoro and Yu, 1989), Anderson and Brenner (1987) suggested that the high protein intake of Western societies plays a central role in the decline of renal function with age and that restriction of dietary protein might prevent this decline. This recommendation cannot be supported for a number of reasons as pointed out in a recent review (Walser, 1992). First, caloric restriction is more effective in rats than is protein restriction in retarding the age-associated decline in renal function (Tapp et al., 1989). Furthermore, caloric restriction without protein restriction markedly retarded the progression of glomerulosclerosis. Rats prefer rations containing higher proportions of protein, and the earlier studies indicating that protein restriction retarded renal damage failed to monitor food intake."

That the suggestion from the one study was ill founded in considering that perhaps lower protein would support the retarding of the development of kidney disease in older rats, for the studies done prior found the exact opposite. It was the high protein diets that were found to retard the development of kidney disease in older rats, and the high caloric diets that were found to contribute to their development in older rats. Same old story, too much fats and unhealthy sugars in the diet, resulting in obesity, supports this occuring, as it does for many other unhealthy metabolic related disorders.

[Scooterzmom]

I'm so happy to hear that Hami is making progress. I didn't realize Hami was short for Hamilton. :grin2 That's quite a trendy and sophisticated name. :tilt

Mitch, if you want to keep a check on Hami's urine chemistries, especially the glucose, you can purchase test strips on Amazon and monitor it yourself. It might be a good idea to do that.
https://www.amazon.com/Parameter-Strips-Infection-Diabetes-Sticks/dp/B01M26O93Q/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1496365525&sr=8-17&keywords=urine+test+strips

What a great idea, the test strips I mean. THank you for the suggestion, I will surely do that.

My little fur boy was brought in by a little Rumanian boy who was only 8 years old and spoke an excellent with a Parisian accent. His mom spoke a bit of French, his dad no French nor English. When I asked the little boy if he had chosen a name for his baby squirrel he said, very politely: "Oui, madame. Il s'appelle Hamilton (which he pronounced Hamiltonn') " - i.e. "Yes, ma'am. He is called Hamilton" :D

I thought it was just toooo cute - and I still have no idea how an 8 yr old kid came up with that name :gigg - so I promissed him that his baby squirrel would keep his name. Now, we shorten it for Hami, but his official name is still Hamilton ;)

Today he has been even more lively... which of course makes mommy soooo happy. :Love_Icon :dance :Love_Icon

[SammysMom]

This is wonderful news! What a precious story of how he got his name..
:Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

For older animals:


*Avoid all whole fat yogurts, as these are too high in fat calories for older animals.

*Avoid Greek yogurts, as these are excessively high in protein.

By comparison, SF Plain Greek Yog at 23 g. protein per cup has more than twice the protein SF plain LF Yog has at 10 g. protein per cup.

Links for comparison of nutrient charts for low and high protein yogurt sources:

http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smooth-creamy/lowfat-plain-32oz (lower protein source - yes)

http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/greek/plain-32oz (higher protein source - no)


References for info: 'kidney function decline in rats'

http://ratguide.com/health/urinary_renal/chronic_progressive_nephropathy.php

http://www.isamurats.co.uk/kidney-issues.html

High caloric intake (diet may also include excessively high levels of protein)

Obesity (connected directly to high caloric intake)

An excessively high-protein diet (possible protein in the urine)

Old age

[Scooterzmom]

Hami is still improving, actually back to his bouncy self today. We had a little (a short & soft one) hand-wrestling session tonight. Boy I love this little guy. After the scare we had, I tell ya... I cherish every minute with him even more. :Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

A note on the urine pH.

The mean urine pH for the E. Gray squirrel noted in the same study from Florida Mid last Century, notes (6.4). the range (6.0 -8.0) for this species. The first urine of the day is always higher than the mean. The mean is determined by taking a number of readings during the day after meals, and then one the following day from the first urination of the day before meals. The mean is the most common pH value found for urine in testing over 24 hours. In the squirrel study the mean wasn't the same as the average for the pH for the species, that is neutral, but slightly acidic. Veterinarian medicine notes 6.5 as the mean pH for small mammals; this nearly identical to that found for E. Gray squirrel.

Though 9.0 is way out of range, if the test wasn't done on a freshly deposited or extracted urine sample, but had cooled, that would result in the bacteria level in the sample rising that increases the value of the urine pH, giving a false reading.

If the reading were to have been taken from a fresh still warm sample within a couple of minutes of it being freshly being deposited, and read the same, it could be an indicator of a possible UTI, bladder or kidney infection, or other infection in the body. It also could be indicative of the diet being too highly alkaline, far out of range of what is healthy.

Without testing for the mean urine pH, by taking readings three times a day after meals, and then one the next morning before meals from the first urination of the day, the mean can't precisely calculated. Yet the first urination of the day can reflect that the other readings are generally lower, and the mean is also.

If the first reading of the day were to be (6.6 - 6.8, or even 7.0) then the mean likely wold be close to the norm for this species urine pH of 6.4. If higher than 7.0, or or lower than 6.0 it would be out of healthy range known for small mammals.

Having a baseline mean urine pH reading can be helpful when you see your pet not feeling well to compare with the current readings at the time.

I hope that helps.

[SammysMom]

I am so happy to read how well that boy of yours is doing! These 7 year olds scare the heck out of me as Sammy will turn 7 in a few months. Hami is so lucky to have you and I can hear in your posts how lucky you feel to have him. Every moment with them is such a gift from God...:Love_Icon

[UDoWhat]

Hami is still improving, actually back to his bouncy self today. We had a little (a short & soft one) hand-wrestling session tonight. Boy I love this little guy. After the scare we had, I tell ya... I cherish every minute with him even more. :Love_Icon

I am so happy to hear this news. Really great news. :Love_Icon

[Diggie's Friend]

Such wonderful news SM, so happy for you both! I hope the Vet can find out what caused this to happen in the first place. Blessings, DF

[island rehabber]

I hold my breath each time I visit this thread and this morning I am SO happy to be able to exhale.
Not only are we glad to see Hami improve :dance, but there is so much here to learn about squirrels and kidney function and pH, thanks to the extremely knowledgeable members of TSB. :bowdown

[PennyCash]

So relieved that Hami is feeling better. Isn't it amazing how even a very short play session renews our spirit after being so terrified :hug
LOVE how he got his name thank you for sharing that story :Love_Icon

[Scooterzmom]

A note on the urine pH.

The mean urine pH for the E. Gray squirrel noted in the same study from Florida Mid last Century, notes (6.4). the range (6.0 -8.0) for this species. The first urine of the day is always higher than the mean. The mean is determined by taking a number of readings during the day after meals, and then one the following day from the first urination of the day before meals. The mean is the most common pH value found for urine in testing over 24 hours. In the squirrel study the mean wasn't the same as the average for the pH for the species, that is neutral, but slightly acidic. Veterinarian medicine notes 6.5 as the mean pH for small mammals; this nearly identical to that found for E. Gray squirrel.

Though 9.0 is way out of range, if the test wasn't done on a freshly deposited or extracted urine sample, but had cooled, that would result in the bacteria level in the sample rising that increases the value of the urine pH, giving a false reading.

If the reading were to have been taken from a fresh still warm sample within a couple of minutes of it being freshly being deposited, and read the same, it could be an indicator of a possible UTI, bladder or kidney infection, or other infection in the body. It also could be indicative of the diet being too highly alkaline, far out of range of what is healthy.

Without testing for the mean urine pH, by taking readings three times a day after meals, and then one the next morning before meals from the first urination of the day, the mean can't precisely calculated. Yet the first urination of the day can reflect that the other readings are generally lower, and the mean is also.

If the first reading of the day were to be (6.6 - 6.8, or even 7.0) then the mean likely wold be close to the norm for this species urine pH of 6.4. If higher than 7.0, or or lower than 6.0 it would be out of healthy range known for small mammals.

Having a baseline mean urine pH reading can be helpful when you see your pet not feeling well to compare with the current readings at the time.

I hope that helps.

Thank you so much for the info!!! Am saving this and will also pass it on to my vet. :blowkiss

[Scooterzmom]

Here are a couple pics we just took today. The first one is my boy in his favorite closet in his room and the second, a little fuzzy, of mommy hand playing with him. Getting harder to take pics, he's so happy to be out, he barely stands still long enough to snap a pic :D

If you notice on his front right paw he has a crooked claw. That is the result of a tif between him and Jerôme (our little NR MBD recovery guy) when Jerôme nearly tore that claw off my poor guy.

Interesting story that claw...and it could've turned way worse. Thankful it did not. Most amazing thing is, Hami was nearly twice the size of Jerôme at the time; they used to play with each other and then, that day, the hormones must've kicked in - or something - and Jerôme decided to attack Hami! Poor Hami was totally baffled, bleeding, and since then I don't let them out at the same time since Hami has never forgiven Jerôme.

In fact, ever since then, the very 1st thing Hami does when he comes out of his cage is go on top of Jerôme's cage, show off his teeth by gnawing on something there, and then... pees on Jeôme's head!!! :clap Teach that boy who's boss after all.

289132 289133

[PennyCash]

Hami looks really good!
Never ceases to amaze me how quickly these guys recover. :Love_Icon
Interestingly enough my girl also has a crooked claw. She lost hers being in her outside cage getting her sun and the wilds were having tiffs amongst themselves. Somehow she's the one who got injured :dunno
Now she doesn't go out if there's a adult male or more than one out there.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Hami looks great. Such happy news.
I love the story of Hami and Jerome's squabble. Peeing on his head... :alright.gif
That will show him. :grin2

[Diggie's Friend]

So you know, when a vet takes a urine pH reading, they know it usually isn't the first of the day. What they are looking for an idea of what the mean pH may be, for depending on the reading, it may bean indication of infection, or metabolic disorder. Other tests together with the urine pH reading may corroberate or invalidate specific conclusions. The data from the tests is like the pieces of a puzzle making up a picture.

Again spikes in urine pH can occur with the ingestion of very high alkaline foods that can move the pH higher temporarily, but aren't indicative of the mean pH of the diet. Whether that happened, or the pH is indicates the presense of a possible infection, I can't say, as that is for your Vet to determine. Something went very wrong, that much is clear.

So glad your boy has got his bounce back.

[Diggie's Friend]

Since the concern for possible Kidney disease was brought up on this thread, I thought to share here 289256a couple of studies I found on that issue.

www.ajpcr.com/Vol5Suppl1/817.pdf

[Chickenlegs]

He looks SO good! Guess he showed Jerome huh! :laugh2:laugh2

[Diggie's Friend]

I wish I could see his photos; sadly I read my present program isn't supportive of that function.

A few more thoughts in regards to a possible issue of kidney function when it comes to older squirrels that already have reduced thyroid and kidney function due to their advanced age:

First I would amend my prior post in which I related its best not feed 'goitrogen' vegetables to older squirrels. For diets that include higher amounts of these foods aren't as high in goitrogens as those tested in rat studies, that resulted in blocking the uptake of iodine to the thyroid gland. And though this effect was offset by the supplementation of iodine with most forms, some were found to be resistant to supplementation that supported a normal level of iodine in the thyroid.

*(It has long been established through lab research that the effect of high levels of goitrogens in the rat resulted in hyperplasia (hyper-enlargement) of the Thyroid gland, aka: 'cancerous goiter', due to the blocking effect of the uptake of iodine to the thyroid, that these compounds were found to cause at higher levels.

** (The thyroid gland produces (calcitonin), a hormone that is responsible for supporting the uptake of calcium into the bloodstream. When thyroid function is impaired, calcium uptake is lowered as a direct result)

In special consideration of squirrels with already reduced thyroid and kidney function due to advanced age, to help offset the ‘goitrogen effect’ from diets higher in goitrogenic vegetables which to some degree would inhibit the uptake of iodine to the thyroid, adding in a bit more iodine could be done; though not so much as to make it too high, as that has its own set of problems. Yet what can be done to lessen the ‘goitrogen effect’ of those forms that were found to be resistant to iodine supplementation, short of not including those foods with those forms in the diet?

Steaming these vegetables before feeding them has been found to lower goitrogen levels. Steaming also doesn’t destroy the anti-oxidants they contain, nor wash away the mineral content as boiling does, which also destroys most of the goitrogen compounds.

In either case, in using cooking to reduce the goitrogens, be careful not to overcook the vegetables to the point they turn very yellowish, as overcooking causes an odor of rotten eggs from the sulfur that these vegetables are high in, to become pronounced, making them unpalatable.

Another benefit to steaming is that is reduces the gaseousness of these foods; a good thing since squirrels, unlike humans or cows, can‘t burp up the gas they produce in the digestive tract.

Again, I hope this helps.

[Diggie's Friend]

Whoopsie, late in the day. :klunk I wrote: (The thyroid gland produces (calcitonin), a hormone that is responsible for supporting the uptake of calcium into the bloodstream.

My mistake! It is the Parathyroid hormone that stimulates the Kidneys to produce Calcitriol (D3), that 'helps to increase the amount of calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium absorbed from the intestines into the bloodstream. Calcitonin, another hormone produced by the Thyroid gland, helps to regulate blood calcium level by signaling the bones to release calcium when needed.

(For an overall view of the function of how these hormones work in synergy, see the article link below.)

https://patient.info/health/the-thyroid-and-parathyroid-glands

"How do the parathyroids work?"

"Normally, parathyroid hormone release is triggered when the level of calcium in the blood is low. When the calcium level rises and is back to normal, the release of parathyroid hormone from the parathyroids is suppressed. However, parathyroid hormone and calcitonin work together to control calcium levels in the blood. The blood calcium level is the main stimulus for the release of these hormones, as the release of these hormones is not controlled by the pituitary.

When the calcium level is high in the bloodstream, the thyroid gland releases calcitonin. Calcitonin slows down the activity of the osteoclasts found in bone. This decreases blood calcium levels. When calcium levels decrease, this stimulates the parathyroid gland to release parathyroid hormone. Parathyroid hormone encourages the normal process of bone breakdown (essential for maintenance and growth of the bone). This process of bone breakdown releases calcium into the bloodstream. These actions raise calcium levels and counteract the effects of calcitonin. By having two hormones with opposing actions, the level of calcium in the blood can be carefully regulated.

Parathyroid hormone also acts on the kidneys. Here it slows down the amount of calcium and magnesium filtered from the blood into the urine. Parathyroid hormone also stimulates the kidneys to make calcitriol, the active form of vitamin D. Calcitriol helps to increase the amount of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus absorbed from your guts (intestines) into the blood."


In this way the Thyroid function and Kidney function are interconnected, and so key to supporting both healthy Thyroid and Kidney function, related directly to maintaining metabolic and bone health.

Goitrogens, when consumed at higher levels have been found to a negative impact upon the function of the thyroid gland in rats, more so than in humans. The decline of thyroid and kidney function in older animals is directly connected to the decline in metabolic and bone health.

[Scooterzmom]

I wish I could see his photos; sadly I read my present program isn't supportive of that function.

A few more thoughts in regards to a possible issue of kidney function when it comes to older squirrels that already have reduced thyroid and kidney function due to their advanced age:

First I would amend my prior post in which I related its best not feed 'goitrogen' vegetables to older squirrels. For diets that include higher amounts of these foods aren't as high in goitrogens as those tested in rat studies, that resulted in blocking the uptake of iodine to the thyroid gland. And though this effect was offset by the supplementation of iodine with most forms, some were found to be resistant to supplementation that supported a normal level of iodine in the thyroid.

*(It has long been established through lab research that the effect of high levels of goitrogens in the rat resulted in hyperplasia (hyper-enlargement) of the Thyroid gland, aka: 'cancerous goiter', due to the blocking effect of the uptake of iodine to the thyroid, that these compounds were found to cause at higher levels.

** (The thyroid gland produces (calcitonin), a hormone that is responsible for supporting the uptake of calcium into the bloodstream. When thyroid function is impaired, calcium uptake is lowered as a direct result)

In special consideration of squirrels with already reduced thyroid and kidney function due to advanced age, to help offset the ‘goitrogen effect’ from diets higher in goitrogenic vegetables which to some degree would inhibit the uptake of iodine to the thyroid, adding in a bit more iodine could be done; though not so much as to make it too high, as that has its own set of problems. Yet what can be done to lessen the ‘goitrogen effect’ of those forms that were found to be resistant to iodine supplementation, short of not including those foods with those forms in the diet?

Steaming these vegetables before feeding them has been found to lower goitrogen levels. Steaming also doesn’t destroy the anti-oxidants they contain, nor wash away the mineral content as boiling does, which also destroys most of the goitrogen compounds.

In either case, in using cooking to reduce the goitrogens, be careful not to overcook the vegetables to the point they turn very yellowish, as overcooking causes an odor of rotten eggs from the sulfur that these vegetables are high in, to become pronounced, making them unpalatable.

Another benefit to steaming is that is reduces the gaseousness of these foods; a good thing since squirrels, unlike humans or cows, can‘t burp up the gas they produce in the digestive tract.

Again, I hope this helps.

Hami is still doing well, thankfully, and doesn't seem to show any signs of his dehydration episode. We are still wondering what exactly did happen - so far things seem to point out to some toxins he might have ingested but I'm afraid we'll never know. Needless to say I do jjkeep an eye on him... more like wathing him like a hawk ;)

What vegetables in particular are we talking about more specifically? I am not well versed in the matter I must say, so if we could narrow it down a little it could help.

:thankyou for all this info.

[Diggie's Friend]

If you would like to pm me I will send you a list of those.

[Diggie's Friend]

Sorry I took so long to get back to you.

Here is a good list to illustrate what these sources are.

Primarily those foods listed 13 that is the group name and following are the individual names of the foods that belong that group.

http://integrativewellnessandpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Goitrogenic-NonGoitrogenic-Foods-pdf.pdf

The fruits listed (7, 8 , 9 ) are fine to include in a diet raw when fed as one of the alternates for fruit in the diet in the same smaller amounts.

The other foods noted, were found like those of the Brassica group, to lower the function of the thyroid in rats when consumed at moderate levels (raw).

My post in the Nutrition forum explains more on why I see its best not feed these goitrogenic vegetables 'raw' to rodents.

[Diggie's Friend]

I thought to add this note to put off any confusion in regards to the 2nd food list on this page. For though that list notes some foods that are good sources (forms) of foods for squirrels, it also contains some that aren't: leeks, iceburg lettuce, celery, and green bell peppers..

[Diggie's Friend]

I found this webpage on rat diets with important info on foods to seriously consider not feeding raw or at higher levels, if at all.

I really like these webpage addresses, for it makes it far easier to relate this important knowledge of the negative effects that some foods have been found to have on rats, rather than having to put altogether an address myself of the findings from research of these specific food sources that support these same conclusions.

http://aboutpetrats.com/nutrition/dangerous-foods

[Diggie's Friend]

One food that the link, I posted above, lists as ok to feed cooked, I must disagree with. Rhubard should never be fed to a rat or squirrel, for even when this source is stewed it maintains a very high level of oxalate that binds up calcium in the intestines and bloodstream making it non-bioavailable to the body, and the bones. This source also can also contribute to the formation of kidney stones.