Basic Nutrition

[breannahope]

This is going to be a lengthy post.. I need all the details. As I research I am getting conflicting answers so i need to ask the best of the best here :)
At what age do you start weaning off formula? How do you do your weaning process? My squirrels are 8 weeks old this weekend. We have given them the baby squirrel protein calcium blocks once a day from Henrys Pets. And just introduced small apple chunks and spinach. They love ALL of it. When you start weaning how often do I provide these nutritious foods for them?


Also, if not in DIRECT sunlight... do I need to supplement with a vitamin D? At what age do you leave water in their cage? They are getting formula by every 4 hours now. I have a covered porch so I could set the cage there but have a shady back yard from tree coverage. Should some fresh air be of benefit to them?

[ALittleNutty]

We don't wean them but give them formula from a syringe as long as they will take it and after that we even offer it in a very shallow dish. As long as they want it they can have it. No need for extra D but if you have a safe, shady place in the yard to put their cage that is perfect. Just make sure they have plenty of water as squirrels can overheat if they don't have enough shade. I start putting water in the cage this age or a week or so before.

Are you planning on releasing them?

[Spanky]

This is going to be a lengthy post.. I need all the details. As I research I am getting conflicting answers so i need to ask the best of the best here :)


At what age do you start weaning off formula?

You don't start weaning... you hope they take formula for as long as they are in your care. It provides great nutrition and guards against MBD. But they will eventually wean themselves...


How do you do your weaning process?

See previous answer? :grin


My squirrels are 8 weeks old this weekend. We have given them the baby squirrel protein calcium blocks once a day from Henrys Pets. And just introduced small apple chunks and spinach. They love ALL of it. When you start weaning how often do I provide these nutritious foods for them?

Variety is the key to great nutrition... I provide a fresh buffet twice a day.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?44440-Healthy-Diet-for-Pet-Squirrels


Also, if not in DIRECT sunlight... do I need to supplement with a vitamin D?

No... especially if they are taking formula!!! :grin :grin (double grin!)


At what age do you leave water in their cage?

8 weeks is old enough... I like to have both a dish of water and a water bottle. It helps to put small (clean) pebbles or marbles in the dish until they get the hang of drinking... helps prevent them from sticking their snout too far into the water.


They are getting formula by every 4 hours now. I have a covered porch so I could set the cage there but have a shady back yard from tree coverage. Should some fresh air be of benefit to them?

Never place a squirrel in direct sunlight without a shady retreat. They suffer sun stroke way too easily (even if it is not very warm out). Personally I would not worry about outdoor / deck time for at least a few more weeks!

[cava]

I had all of these same questions, too! Thanks for the thorough response. (Although I thought I saw a light at the end of the formula tunnel. Nope. :grin2 )

[Spanky]

At 9 - 10 weeks I cut back to 3 daily formula feedings and HHB twice a day. After that I offer formula twice a day for as long as they cooperate! Of course cutting back on formula assumes they are healthy, eating their HHB and all their healthy veggies!

Edit: I want to clarify, since cutting back (by which I mean frequency) kind of sounds like weaning, but the objective is not to wean them off formula but rather to train them to eat their HHB and healthy veggies. And if they are doing that, they naturally will result in them taking less formula.

[Daisey007]

Again, contrary to popular belief, I would only feed HH Blocks as a small occasional snack or 'treat'. I would wean and transition from formula directly to rodent blocks, lab rat chow or mazuri blocks. They taste horrible and grown squirrels won't touch them, HOWEVER, baby squirrels don't know any better, so they tend to accept them and eventually love them. They have been laboratory tested and proven to be nutritious for squirrels and are a better value for your money. After you transition onto those you may begin adding addition vegetables, fruits, and a few nuts. The primary ingredient in HH Blocks 'EVEN after the addition of everything else' is NUTS. In my own opinion, we should always avoid nuts, and no food should become a primary source of critical nutrition in which the 'PRIMARY' ingredient is nuts. I'm just not that trusting with the little guys I raise...

[astra]

Again, contrary to popular belief, I would only feed HH Blocks as a small occasional snack or 'treat'. I would wean and transition from formula directly to rodent blocks, lab rat chow or mazuri blocks. They taste horrible and grown squirrels won't touch them, HOWEVER, baby squirrels don't know any better, so they tend to accept them and eventually love them. They have been laboratory tested and proven to be nutritious for squirrels and are a better value for your money. After you transition onto those you may begin adding addition vegetables, fruits, and a few nuts. The primary ingredient in HH Blocks 'EVEN after the addition of everything else' is NUTS. In my own opinion, we should always avoid nuts, and no food should become a primary source of critical nutrition in which the 'PRIMARY' ingredient is nuts. I'm just not that trusting with the little guys I raise...
No, it is not a "popular belief."

HHBs have been used with success as the foundational block for squirreles for many years.

Being adamant about first ingredients being nuts reveals one's lack of knowledge of what determines the order of ingredients on a food label.
The order of the ingredients on a food label is determined by WEIGHT, NOT by concentration of nutrients in a given ingredient.
Hence, since BY WEIGHT nuts outweigh other ingredients, they are listed first.
BUT the vitamins and minerals are CONCENTRATED, so even though they are lighter in physical weight, they "OUTWEIGH" the "heavy" nuts by nutritional concentration.
IN other words - nutrition-wise vitamins and minerals overpower the nuts.

MOREOVER, the concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs has been based on lab data about rats. THAT means, that HHBs have been formulated pretty much like all that rat block (i.e., based on the same data) yet with a special focus on squirrels, and what makes them far superior to even good commercial block is that they use all human grade ingredients and NO fillers.
The carefully calculated concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs neutralized ANY and ALL possible undesirable effects of nuts. Thus, nuts are only fulfilling their function of making block attractive to squirrels, while concentrated vitamins and minerals fulfill their nutritional "healthful" function.


Comparing block to block, commercial rat block (and some more so than others) use a lot of fillers, and not great ones (soy one of them).
For large rehab and for very, very tight budgets commercial block is used just fine.
But for singletons or whenever budget permits, HHBs are still superior.

There has never been ONE single squirrel with MBD on HHBs.
Furthermore, there have been countless squirrels who recovered from MBD and other injuries on HHBs as their block.

So, to imply and suggest that HHBs are somehow harmful and their benefits are a "popular belief" is a rather grave misinformation.

In order to get over this whole "nuts are listed first" people need to learn that ingredients are listed by weight; and people also need to learn about the differences between weight of a substance and a concentrated substance of lesser weight and so on and so forth.

Different people have their own preferred modes of feedings - and that's fine. But when shared it is best to share them exactly as "personal preferences" and not as some kind of authoritative statements labeling others - in this case HHBs - as a "popular belief."

While more experienced board members may be able to sort out through such comments, newbies may not.

Let's keep personal preferences as such and, when some strong statements are made as in this case of labeling the benefits of HHBs as "popular belief" - let's support such strong claims with facts (such as what determines the order of ingredients in a food label) and not with one's own "preferred beliefs" and misinformation.

Thus, so far there are such facts about HHBs:
1) not one squirrel became ill with MBD on HHBs. EVER. NEVER.
2) a great number of squirrels recovered from MBD on HHBs
3) They are formulated specifically for squirrels with rat data as foundation.
4) ingredients on food labels are listed in the order of weight, NOT concentration.
5) HHBs use all high quality human grade ingredients.

:peace

[cava]

Again, contrary to popular belief, I would only feed HH Blocks as a small occasional snack or 'treat'. I would wean and transition from formula directly to rodent blocks, lab rat chow or mazuri blocks. They taste horrible and grown squirrels won't touch them, HOWEVER, baby squirrels don't know any better, so they tend to accept them and eventually love them. They have been laboratory tested and proven to be nutritious for squirrels and are a better value for your money. After you transition onto those you may begin adding addition vegetables, fruits, and a few nuts. The primary ingredient in HH Blocks 'EVEN after the addition of everything else' is NUTS. In my own opinion, we should always avoid nuts, and no food should become a primary source of critical nutrition in which the 'PRIMARY' ingredient is nuts. I'm just not that trusting with the little guys I raise...

So say they are transitioning from formula and want to eat, but are picky about the new veggies. Would the rodent blocks sort of be their staple nutrition while they wean and try stuff out? Is it nutritionally complete? Mine are finally eating them-sorta (usually when they are pissed that feeding time is over because they could eat twenty more syringes and they go grab one and eat it and stare at me with a pouty look on their face.) (Or so it seems :gigg ) I am putting fresh ones in twice a day, store a small batch in a jar and the others in the freezer.

Also, do you guys pick greens from outside and include that in their veggies? (clover, sorrel, dandelion, grass, maple leaves, etc.?)

[astra]

So say they are transitioning from formula and want to eat, but are picky about the new veggies. Would the rodent blocks sort of be their staple nutrition while they wean and try stuff out? Is it nutritionally complete? Mine are finally eating them-sorta (usually when they are pissed that feeding time is over because they could eat twenty more syringes and they go grab one and eat it and stare at me with a pouty look on their face.) (Or so it seems :gigg ) I am putting fresh ones in twice a day, store a small batch in a jar and the others in the freezer.

Also, do you guys pick greens from outside and include that in their veggies? (clover, sorrel, dandelion, grass, maple leaves, etc.?)

Rodent block does become their staple nutrition once they begin to refuse formula.

A general rule of thumb is as follows:

1) once their eyes open - start giving them a piece of block for them to start getting used to it. They won't eat it right away: will pee on it, nibble, climb over, play with it etc.
Eventually they will start nibbling and eating.
Block should be their first solid food in order for them to accept it as their next staple.

2) when they begin to wean themselves (should be their choice, do not enforce weaning), block will become for them the foundation of their diet. But again - do not wean them, let them wean themselves - the longer they are on formula, the healthier they will be.


3) once they start eating block without fuss, veggies and greens are introduced.

4) once they are eating block, veggies and greens without fuss and with pleasure - treats such as fruit and a nut-a-day can be given.

While some individual situations sometimes vary, this is a general outline. Block - first, then - greens and veggies, then- treats.

PS some sqs still want to drink some formula in a dish even while eating block and veggies and all. That's fine, and even good.

[astra]

just to add some food for thought (no pun intended):

one can take a look at any fortified food (e.g., cereal, sports protein bars, sports protein drinks etc.) - the "food" ingredients, i.e., the ingredients that make this stuff edible, are listed first, and all the fortification (vitamins and minerals) are listed after precisely because they are concentrated. If they were listed first, this wouldn't be "food" really, it would be an equivalent of a multivitamin pill.

Similarly, nuts which are listed first in HHBs fulfill the same function - they simply help make the block palatable and food. Otherwise, it would be just a baked equivalent of a multivitamin pill.

Also, some commercial blocks list corn and other less desirable foods among their first ingredients. Yet, because these blocks have concentrated vits. and minerals, the latter neutralize the harmful effects of corn, too.




No, it is not a "popular belief."

HHBs have been used with success as the foundational block for squirreles for many years.

Being adamant about first ingredients being nuts reveals one's lack of knowledge of what determines the order of ingredients on a food label.
The order of the ingredients on a food label is determined by WEIGHT, NOT by concentration of nutrients in a given ingredient.
Hence, since BY WEIGHT nuts outweigh other ingredients, they are listed first.
BUT the vitamins and minerals are CONCENTRATED, so even though they are lighter in physical weight, they "OUTWEIGH" the "heavy" nuts by nutritional concentration.
IN other words - nutrition-wise vitamins and minerals overpower the nuts.

MOREOVER, the concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs has been based on lab data about rats. THAT means, that HHBs have been formulated pretty much like all that rat block (i.e., based on the same data) yet with a special focus on squirrels, and what makes them far superior to even good commercial block is that they use all human grade ingredients and NO fillers.
The carefully calculated concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs neutralized ANY and ALL possible undesirable effects of nuts. Thus, nuts are only fulfilling their function of making block attractive to squirrels, while concentrated vitamins and minerals fulfill their nutritional "healthful" function.


Comparing block to block, commercial rat block (and some more so than others) use a lot of fillers, and not great ones (soy one of them).
For large rehab and for very, very tight budgets commercial block is used just fine.
But for singletons or whenever budget permits, HHBs are still superior.

There has never been ONE single squirrel with MBD on HHBs.
Furthermore, there have been countless squirrels who recovered from MBD and other injuries on HHBs as their block.

So, to imply and suggest that HHBs are somehow harmful and their benefits are a "popular belief" is a rather grave misinformation.

In order to get over this whole "nuts are listed first" people need to learn that ingredients are listed by weight; and people also need to learn about the differences between weight of a substance and a concentrated substance of lesser weight and so on and so forth.

Different people have their own preferred modes of feedings - and that's fine. But when shared it is best to share them exactly as "personal preferences" and not as some kind of authoritative statements labeling others - in this case HHBs - as a "popular belief."

While more experienced board members may be able to sort out through such comments, newbies may not.

Let's keep personal preferences as such and, when some strong statements are made as in this case of labeling the benefits of HHBs as "popular belief" - let's support such strong claims with facts (such as what determines the order of ingredients in a food label) and not with one's own "preferred beliefs" and misinformation.

Thus, so far there are such facts about HHBs:
1) not one squirrel became ill with MBD on HHBs. EVER. NEVER.
2) a great number of squirrels recovered from MBD on HHBs
3) They are formulated specifically for squirrels with rat data as foundation.
4) ingredients on food labels are listed in the order of weight, NOT concentration.
5) HHBs use all high quality human grade ingredients.

:peace

[cava]

Got it. :thankyou

[stepnstone]

No, it is not a "popular belief."
HHBs have been used with success as the foundational block for squirreles for many years.

Being adamant about first ingredients being nuts reveals one's lack of knowledge of what determines the order of ingredients on a food label.
The order of the ingredients on a food label is determined by WEIGHT, NOT by concentration of nutrients in a given ingredient.
Hence, since BY WEIGHT nuts outweigh other ingredients, they are listed first.
BUT the vitamins and minerals are CONCENTRATED, so even though they are lighter in physical weight, they "OUTWEIGH" the "heavy" nuts by nutritional concentration.
IN other words - nutrition-wise vitamins and minerals overpower the nuts.

MOREOVER, the concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs has been based on lab data about rats. THAT means, that HHBs have been formulated pretty much like all that rat block (i.e., based on the same data) yet with a special focus on squirrels, and what makes them far superior to even good commercial block is that they use all human grade ingredients and NO fillers.
The carefully calculated concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs neutralized ANY and ALL possible undesirable effects of nuts. Thus, nuts are only fulfilling their function of making block attractive to squirrels, while concentrated vitamins and minerals fulfill their nutritional "healthful" function.


Comparing block to block, commercial rat block (and some more so than others) use a lot of fillers, and not great ones (soy one of them).
For large rehab and for very, very tight budgets commercial block is used just fine.
But for singletons or whenever budget permits, HHBs are still superior.

There has never been ONE single squirrel with MBD on HHBs.
Furthermore, there have been countless squirrels who recovered from MBD and other injuries on HHBs as their block.

So, to imply and suggest that HHBs are somehow harmful and their benefits are a "popular belief" is a rather grave misinformation.

In order to get over this whole "nuts are listed first" people need to learn that ingredients are listed by weight; and people also need to learn about the differences between weight of a substance and a concentrated substance of lesser weight and so on and so forth.

Different people have their own preferred modes of feedings - and that's fine. But when shared it is best to share them exactly as "personal preferences" and not as some kind of authoritative statements labeling others - in this case HHBs - as a "popular belief."

While more experienced board members may be able to sort out through such comments, newbies may not.

Let's keep personal preferences as such and, when some strong statements are made as in this case of labeling the benefits of HHBs as "popular belief" - let's support such strong claims with facts (such as what determines the order of ingredients in a food label) and not with one's own "preferred beliefs" and misinformation.

Thus, so far there are such facts about HHBs:
1) not one squirrel became ill with MBD on HHBs. EVER. NEVER.
2) a great number of squirrels recovered from MBD on HHBs
3) They are formulated specifically for squirrels with rat data as foundation.
4) ingredients on food labels are listed in the order of weight, NOT concentration.
5) HHBs use all high quality human grade ingredients.

:peace
:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:good post
Thank you astra!! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/audience-clapping-smiley-emoticon.gif

I have seen that "contrary to popular belief" comment against HHB's posted in other forums and this time I was typing as you were posting!
Besides the fact that HHB's are fresh baked with human-quality ingredients with no artificial preservatives, colors, fillers, additives, preservatives or by-products.
And they are a low-carb, soy-free diet that provides optimum health and nutrition. There is a big difference between a commercial Rat/rodent block and Henry's
Healthy blocks. Henry's squirrel blocks were scientifically developed and designed for squirrels and their daily nutritional requirements.
No commercial rodent block to date can lay claim to that!

[astra]

Thank you, stepnstone!!!

I've come across such completely unjustified and misleading vilification of HHBs before, too. So, felt prompted to finally say it in the open and not just in PMs.

And as one more example of weight vs. concentration:

If we put a tiny concentrated fatal drop of cyanide in a pound loaf of bread, the wheat flour will be listed first, and the tiny concentrated drop of cyanide will be last b/c it will be even smaller than the amount of yeast needed to make the loaf rise.
And, hopefully, it is unnecessary to explain that despite a very heavy first ingredient - wheat, the tiny but very concentrated last ingredient will overpower all the pound of edible stuff and will fulfill its grim function.

Likewise, I think it's time to stop this "HHBs have nuts as the first ingredient" because (will repeat myself) - the concentrated vits. and minerals neutralize whatever undesirable cal: phos ratio nuts may have.


:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:good post
Thank you astra!! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/audience-clapping-smiley-emoticon.gif

I have seen that "contrary to popular belief" comment against HHB's posted in other forums and this time I was typing as you were posting!
Besides the fact that HHB's are fresh baked with human-quality ingredients with no artificial preservatives, colors, fillers, additives, preservatives or by-products.
And they are a low-carb, soy-free diet that provides optimum health and nutrition. There is a big difference between a commercial Rat/rodent block and Henry's
Healthy blocks. Henry's squirrel blocks were scientifically developed and designed for squirrels and their daily nutritional requirements.
No commercial rodent block to date can lay claim to that!
exactly!!! :thumbsup

[Spanky]

Also, do you guys pick greens from outside and include that in their veggies? (clover, sorrel, dandelion, grass, maple leaves, etc.?)

Absolutely, yes!


While some individual situations sometimes vary, this is a general outline. Block - first, then - greens and veggies, then- treats.

IMO this is where squirrel's people sometimes go off track... you should get them eating the block very well first. Once they are eating it really well, I continue to give them their block first, before anything else. So the morning (and evening) routine is clean out the *leftovers from the buffet, give them their block. And wait.:impDon't give in... they will eat it (and usually without challenge if you followed Astra's advice that they get not other solids introduced until they are "hooked" on their block). I often use the analogy that they will line up for their block like kids at an ice cream truck in July if you follow this advice! :rotfl

After they have eaten their blocks, then the get the buffet including a little fruit (which they usually go to first). They quickly learn (or are trained?) that they will not get the buffet until they have eaten their block.

*leftovers: I usually have considerable leftovers because I provide more then they can eat and a good and varying variety. Wilds have a variety of wide open space and find what their bodies need and demand. Captive squirrels have a variety of only what their people provide them. Give them a variety and they will eat what their bodies demand and need... and that will change as they get bored with this veggie or that veggie. My Step had not gotten cauliflower in weeks because he had stop eating it.. last night he got some.. this morning he was eating the last of it when I greeted him good morning!

[astra]

Absolutely, yes!



[FONT=comic sans ms]IMO this is where squirrel's people sometimes go off track... you should get them eating the block very well first. Once they are eating it really well, I continue to give them their block first, before anything else.

After they have eaten their blocks, then the get the buffet including a little fruit (which they usually go to first). They quickly learn (or are trained?) that they will not get the buffet until they have eaten their blocks

:thumbsup that's what works for me, too. Block always first in am and until that's eaten - no other food. I know that some people have slightly different routines and it works for their sqs. But in my case - nothing else until block is eaten (every am), just like Spanky described.

[Daisey007]

No, it is not a "popular belief."

HHBs have been used with success as the foundational block for squirreles for many years.

Being adamant about first ingredients being nuts reveals one's lack of knowledge of what determines the order of ingredients on a food label.
The order of the ingredients on a food label is determined by WEIGHT, NOT by concentration of nutrients in a given ingredient.
Hence, since BY WEIGHT nuts outweigh other ingredients, they are listed first.
BUT the vitamins and minerals are CONCENTRATED, so even though they are lighter in physical weight, they "OUTWEIGH" the "heavy" nuts by nutritional concentration.
IN other words - nutrition-wise vitamins and minerals overpower the nuts.

MOREOVER, the concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs has been based on lab data about rats. THAT means, that HHBs have been formulated pretty much like all that rat block (i.e., based on the same data) yet with a special focus on squirrels, and what makes them far superior to even good commercial block is that they use all human grade ingredients and NO fillers.
The carefully calculated concentration of vitamins and minerals in HHBs neutralized ANY and ALL possible undesirable effects of nuts. Thus, nuts are only fulfilling their function of making block attractive to squirrels, while concentrated vitamins and minerals fulfill their nutritional "healthful" function.


Comparing block to block, commercial rat block (and some more so than others) use a lot of fillers, and not great ones (soy one of them).
For large rehab and for very, very tight budgets commercial block is used just fine.
But for singletons or whenever budget permits, HHBs are still superior.

There has never been ONE single squirrel with MBD on HHBs.
Furthermore, there have been countless squirrels who recovered from MBD and other injuries on HHBs as their block.

So, to imply and suggest that HHBs are somehow harmful and their benefits are a "popular belief" is a rather grave misinformation.

In order to get over this whole "nuts are listed first" people need to learn that ingredients are listed by weight; and people also need to learn about the differences between weight of a substance and a concentrated substance of lesser weight and so on and so forth.

Different people have their own preferred modes of feedings - and that's fine. But when shared it is best to share them exactly as "personal preferences" and not as some kind of authoritative statements labeling others - in this case HHBs - as a "popular belief."

While more experienced board members may be able to sort out through such comments, newbies may not.

Let's keep personal preferences as such and, when some strong statements are made as in this case of labeling the benefits of HHBs as "popular belief" - let's support such strong claims with facts (such as what determines the order of ingredients in a food label) and not with one's own "preferred beliefs" and misinformation.

Thus, so far there are such facts about HHBs:
1) not one squirrel became ill with MBD on HHBs. EVER. NEVER.
2) a great number of squirrels recovered from MBD on HHBs
3) They are formulated specifically for squirrels with rat data as foundation.
4) ingredients on food labels are listed in the order of weight, NOT concentration.
5) HHBs use all high quality human grade ingredients.

:peace

Thank you Astra for the lengthy authoritative tout regarding HH Blocks. Please allow me to clarify my position regarding my response, and to ask you some questions that may help me to have a better understanding of HH Blocks.

I want to first point out that my statement is my own personal opinion but it's not based on "lack of knowledge" as I have a forty, yes 40, year history in science, which is the exact amount of years that I've been rehabilitating squirrels. So, please, don't assume that just because my 'opinion' differs from yours that it's based on "lack of knowledge".

The way you defend HH blocks, rather than recognizing a difference of opinion based on our individual knowledge and preferences,
makes me wonder if you own or have a stake in HH Blocks? I have no strong loyalties in favor of any product that I mentioned. I have no strong negative opinions against HH blocks except to say they shouldn't be the sole source of 'critical nutrients'. I feel they're fine for treats.

You, nor anyone else, can say with any amount of certainty that "not one single squirrel ever developed MBD while on HH Blocks".
Simply because you are unaware of it doesn't make it a fact. Since no scientific research was done using HH blocks, that I'm aware
of or I have seen, you have no statistical data to support that claim. Simply put, you don't know what you don't know. I think it's fair to say that the jury is still out on that. With that said, any claim regarding health i.e. MBD, is considered a drug claim, and drug claims are unacceptable on animal feed products by law.

You mentioned that the blocks were formulated "specifically for squirrels with rat data" as a foundation. Well, let's look at that. Just
how much does a squirrel have in common with a rat? Answer, almost nothing! In fact: the only thing they have in common is the rate in which their teeth grow per year and that's all. Procreation, gestation, number of young per litter, rearing, habitats, behavior, and DIET (in non captive animals) are extremely different. Granted squirrels are usually categorized with rats but that fact is why we keep coming up short in our care and treatment for squirrels. So, to compare the two species based solely on the rate in which their teeth grow is not only poor practice but "misinformation". Since we don't truly know what the critical nutrients should be for squirrels, we shouldn't consider HH Blocks to be the sole source of critical nutrients as it is often referenced as being so, or based on popular belief anyway, since it's based solely on rat data.

Now let's talk science...
Can you provide the scientific calculation for the "carefully calculated" vitamins and minerals that "neutralize any and all negative effects of the nuts"? Does it 'negate' the positive effects of nuts too? I have not been able to locate such data and would be interested in seeing it. Also, do you know where I might find a certified analysis report from a laboratory on HH Blocks? I've looked on the packages of HH Block and I don't see an analysis report that is common on other packaged animal food products but they are not always required to be on animal products. I'm interested in what effect baking may or may not have on the nutrients? I guess a quest for knowledge is from my scientific background but I'm just not trusting without supporting scientific data.

I have many concerns regarding HH blocks being considered the holy grail of squirrel food, and only a few are mentioned here. I certainly understand the principle behind primary ingredients being listed by weight but felt it simpler to site that than to elaborate my concerns in detail, and for that I apologize. I do not feel that HH blocks are bad per se, however, I also don't feel they should be considered THE primary critical care nutrient food source for squirrels without some scientific data to backup the claims.. Without true scientific data, the squirrels HERE are the ones in the test tube! Rather than attempt to make someone appear "uninformed" because their knowledge, skills and opinions differ from yours... maybe ask why they have a different opinion than yours.

At no point did my wildlife veterinarian ever recommend HH blocks when my Daisy had MDB, nor have I ever read anything that indicated that any other veterinarian recommended HH blocks. I feel it's a grave mistake to recommend or endorse a product without full scientific knowledge of that product, and not have a single veterinarian to officially recommend the product.

The one thing we all have in common is that we LOVE squirrels and we all want what is best for them. We all bring unique skills and abilities to the board that can benefit all members. I offer my opinions and recommendations based on what I feel is best for the squirrels regardless of how popular my opinion may or may not be.

[Daisey007]

:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost:good post
Thank you astra!! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/audience-clapping-smiley-emoticon.gif

I have seen that "contrary to popular belief" comment against HHB's posted in other forums and this time I was typing as you were posting!
Besides the fact that HHB's are fresh baked with human-quality ingredients with no artificial preservatives, colors, fillers, additives, preservatives or by-products.
And they are a low-carb, soy-free diet that provides optimum health and nutrition. There is a big difference between a commercial Rat/rodent block and Henry's
Healthy blocks. Henry's squirrel blocks were scientifically developed and designed for squirrels and their daily nutritional requirements.
No commercial rodent block to date can lay claim to that!

This is probably my favorite comment!

"Besides the fact that HHB's are fresh baked with human-quality ingredients with no artificial preservatives, colors, fillers, additives, preservatives or by-products."

A claim that something is "Human-quality" implies that the item being referenced is edible for people in legally defined terms. "No artificial preservatives"... That's true. The product depends on refrigeration and/or freezing as a preservative... however, it DOES spend several days in the mail void of either refrigeration or freezing. Oops, that means the product was 'unprotected' during that time.

"There is a big difference between a commercial Rat/rodent block and Henry's Healthy blocks. Henry's squirrel blocks were scientifically developed and designed for squirrels and their daily nutritional requirements. No commercial rodent block to date can lay claim to that!"

WRONG! Just more "misinformation"... They were developed based largely of the nutritional requirements of RATS with a little extra calcium and nuts added. And of course, squirrels have very little in common with rats other than the rate of growth in their teeth.

[lilidukes]

Because I have so many squirrels I feed
my squirrels the homemade HHB's. The
ingredients are
Whey protein isolate (I use 130 grams)
Henry's vitamins (33 grams)
baking powder (1 tsp)
eggs (1)
water (2 or 3 Tbs)
finely chopped pecans and almond slivers (110 grams total)
coconut oil for the pan

My kids are all disabled in one form or another.
Each of them are healthy with beautiful shiny
coats big fat tails and shiny eyes.

I have 3 different squirrels who came to me
with severe MBD. Their X-rays showed hollow
bones. Along with the emergency MBD protocol
I only fed blocks, leafy greens, broccoli and
sugar snap peas until their recovery was well
under way. They are all very healthy now.
Their block is always the very first
thing they eat from their salad bowls every day.

I've been feeding HHB's for 7 years. They are
expensive and very time consuming to make.
But very worth the cost and time. All I have
to do is look around me for proof.

Rodent block never enters my home.

You can call Leigh at Henry's for any
nutritional advice or questions.

[Spanky]

This is going to be a lengthy post.. I need all the details. As I research I am getting conflicting answers so i need to ask the best of the best here :)

And you thought your original post was lengthy! :rotfl I am going to "attempt" to bring this thread back to your original concerns... and suggest perhaps "we" (the membership) start a separate discussion (debate?) on various blocks (pros, cons, variances/preferences) in a separate thread for that purpose?

As far as conflicting info is concerned, well I think it is fair to say... you got some more conflicting information, maybe? Which is okay, there is more than one "right answer" here IMO. If there is any good news it is we all agree (at least I am pretty certain we do?!?!) that we should not wean squirrels from formula.. if any weaning is going to happen, we should let that be the squirrels choice... our "job" is to offer formula for as long as they are willing to take it. And then some.

As far as "block" goes... I would opine that for folks that are raising a squirrel or two and not dozens (or hundreds?) every season, the Henry's Healthy Block is the easier (and proven reliable) path in terms of the squirrels' willingness to readily eat them. They are not inexpensive but a bag will last a month for a singleton squirrel and if we assume release is the goal.. it's a few months of HHBs. Trust that 1 - 2 blocks daily will provide lots of good nutrition... if it did not or if that changed at all (like various formula does / has changed) the TSB members at large would likely be first to discover. And feel free to feed the Oxbow, Muzuri, etc. in addition to the HHB... as much as they will eat. And lots of veggies, wild foods if you can, a little fruit and the occasional nut as treats (like cotton candy and gummy bears to a human toddler). Too many nuts and they will stop eating the HHB... AND everything else (maybe this too is something that will have consensus? :dono).

:peace

[Daisey007]

Because I have so many squirrels I feed
my squirrels the homemade HHB's. The
ingredients are
Whey protein isolate (I use 130 grams)
Henry's vitamins (33 grams)
baking powder (1 tsp)
eggs (1)
water (2 or 3 Tbs)
finely chopped pecans and almond slivers (110 grams total)
coconut oil for the pan

My kids are all disabled in one form or another.
Each of them are healthy with beautiful shiny
coats big fat tails and shiny eyes.

I have 3 different squirrels who came to me
with severe MBD. Their X-rays showed hollow
bones. Along with the emergency MBD protocol
I only fed blocks, leafy greens, broccoli and
sugar snap peas until their recovery was well
under way. They are all very healthy now.
Their block is always the very first
thing they eat from their salad bowls every day.

I've been feeding HHB's for 7 years. They are
expensive and very time consuming to make.
But very worth the cost and time. All I have
to do is look around me for proof.

Rodent block never enters my home.

You can call Leigh at Henry's for any
nutritional advice or questions.

Chances are that unless those blocks are offered when they first start nibbling solid foods, they wouldn't eat them anyway. And you can absolutely forget feeding them after they've tasted the HH blocks, it won't happen. I would prefer to make my own blocks like you are doing. Is the recipe you provided the complete recipe, and do you vary the ingredients?

[PennyCash]

Absolutely, yes!



IMO this is where squirrel's people sometimes go off track... you should get them eating the block very well first. Once they are eating it really well, I continue to give them their block first, before anything else. So the morning (and evening) routine is clean out the *leftovers from the buffet, give them their block. And wait.:impDon't give in... they will eat it (and usually without challenge if you followed Astra's advice that they get not other solids introduced until they are "hooked" on their block). I often use the analogy that they will line up for their block like kids at an ice cream truck in July if you follow this advice! :rotfl

After they have eaten their blocks, then the get the buffet including a little fruit (which they usually go to first). They quickly learn (or are trained?) that they will not get the buffet until they have eaten their block.

*leftovers: I usually have considerable leftovers because I provide more then they can eat and a good and varying variety. Wilds have a variety of wide open space and find what their bodies need and demand. Captive squirrels have a variety of only what their people provide them. Give them a variety and they will eat what their bodies demand and need... and that will change as they get bored with this veggie or that veggie. My Step had not gotten cauliflower in weeks because he had stop eating it.. last night he got some.. this morning he was eating the last of it when I greeted him good morning!

I followed advice like this 4 years ago and I can attest that once your squirrels have learned to love their block then everything else is so much easier. I'm a bit of a tough momma who doesn't give anything out of the healthiest 1 and 2 blocks on the feeding chart in the am when she's hungriest. In the evening she gets to have other healthy choices, 1 item from the 3rd block and 1 serving of fruit as a dessert. At most she recieved 1 and 1/8? nut from me since I used just a tiny piece of nut as a incentive to cage up after breakfast and at night she was given a nut in shell for caging.
To this day my girl will grab her block as the first thing to eat even if there is some yummy fruit on the plate. :w00t
She still gets formula and still loves it although she only gets it once a day if that anymore...
Easiest for me was to realize was if you wouldn't let your child eat junk before healthy food then why would you give into a squirrel who needs you to be just as diligent (perhaps even more) in their diet.

[stepnstone]

I offer my opinions and recommendations based on what I feel is best for the squirrels regardless of how popular my opinion may or may not be.
Oh good greif! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/word/einstein-wtf-smiley-emoticon.png So everything and everyone has to be under "dissection" biased on your opinion.
Makes me wonder how this board ever survived all these years before that self imposed pedestal was erected??

[astra]

Thank you Astra for the lengthy authoritative tout regarding HH Blocks. [...]

I truly have no time for useless going "back and forth" online regarding issues that do not warrant such discussions.

So, will try to be brief:

1) ALL squirrels that I know who use HHBs NEVER get MBD. And it is safe to say that most of the squirrels who use HHBs have come through this board primarily.
The squirrels who were literally raised from the dead on HHBs alone (with no other block added) have also gone through this board.

However, regarding all specifics and all calculations that went to HHBs - talk to Henryspets. That's their product and that kind of information should be addressed by them only. So, go ahead.

MOREOVER, since you are the one who brought this up and just can't stop - the burden of proof is on you, that is - unless you can provide the same unquestionable and absolute proof of the commercial rodent block's infallibility and superiority to HHBs -- you have no right to demand that kind of proof from HHBs. In case it is not clear, I will use your own questions to ask YOU about the commercial block (e.g., mazuri and whatever else you "touted"):

1) Most commercial blocks use all sorts of fillers, corn and whatnot - that stuff that isn't good for rodents. So, Can you provide the scientific calculation for the "carefully calculated" vitamins and minerals that "neutralize any and all negative effects of" all these harmful fillers that make all these commercial blocks somehow better than HHBs? - please provide the absolute proof, the same proof you require of HHBs. YOu keep insisting that comm. block is better, but you never address the fillers, corn, soy and other stuff used in them. So, the burden of proof is on you.

2) You wrote: "You, nor anyone else, can say with any amount of certainty that "not one single squirrel ever developed MBD while on HH Blocks".
--- If that's how you want to talk, fine then - again, since you insist that commercial block is better and safer than HHBs, please prove that "YOU can say with any amount of certainty" that no single squirrel ever developed MBD while on commercial block.
Again, since this is the kind of certainty you pin against HHBs - the burden is on you to prove that the commercial block which you consider superior to HHBs can provide this sort of certainty.

3) As for 40 years of rehab, or any amount of years of rehab, or all the years of rehab and stuff - that does not mean much. THere are plenty of rehabbers who have been doing it for many years and still do not use best practices. There are many rehabbers who truly do not know what they are doing despite all the years.

As the saying goes - some people live the same day their whole lives.

Besides, with all due respect, your rehab exp. tells me nothing because I do not know you, and I do not know what your rehab skills are like.
BUT the rehabbers whom I have in mind when I talk about squirrels who recovered from MBD on HHBs - these rehabbers I know, I've seen them in action, I've seen the very squirrels who recovered on HHBs alone. And these rehabbers, too, have many years behind their belt.
So, it's their experience against yours.
Besides, personally, I disagree with some of the things you shared here from your rehab experience. I am not going to go into this as it is irrelevant, but just saying. So, in my book that doesn't add a lot of credibility to your "40 yrs of rehab"

In addition, I've also seen vets and docs with many years of practice (like your "40 yrs of rehab experience") - and honestly, there is a tendency among older vets and docs not to explore newer developments and/or procedures. They prefer to stick to their old habitual ways even if there may be better new ones. So, your "40 yrs" of rehab experience may suggest something like that, too.

So, whichever way one looks at it - "40yrs of rehab" is not a good argument, because it may mean many different things, and some of them aren't great.
THat makes your self-reflecting appeal to your number of years not a good argument.

4) As for a vet who recommended or not recommended HHBs for MBD - same as above.
There are knowledgeable vets who keep up with newer developments, and there are those who don't. There are inquisitive vets who explore new things, and there are those who don't. There are brighter vets, and there are average vets. Same as with human doctors - there are doctors and there are doctors; likewise - there are vets and there are vets.
How has it happened that your vet's opinion on HHBs is somehow indicative of HHBs' value? - this is totally illogical, how is this even an argument??... oh well.

5) UNTIL you can provide the same kind of "scientific," "statistical" and whatever/whichever other proofs for the absolute superiority of commercial block that you demand for HHBs - you have no argument, you have no ground to stand on, other than your "preferred opinion."
UNLESS you can say with the same certainty you require from HHBs that "Not one squirrel became ill with MBD on commercial block" - you have no right to demand that from HHBs.

6) ALL commercial rodent block is calculated for rats. So, since rat data was also used for HHBs (and I am not even going to go into the squirrel part here just to keep it simple) - it appears that both the commercial block and the HHBs which you vilify are based on the same scientific data about rats. So, if they are all based on pretty much the same data, how is that comm. block is somehow superior? ... and while you are at it with all this "Nuts" stuff - explain to me how is it that some comm. block brands use corn and soy, and whatnot and how that is great for squirrels, and how that is superior to HHBs.

And that goes for each and every point you made against HHBs - prove conclusively that commercial block is superior and then you have something to argue with.

BUT until you can conclusively prove that commercial block is superior to HHBs and HHBs are a bad idea - you have no grounds to demand that kind of "proof" from HHBs.
AND here where the main point was of my original reply to you:

You can have your own preferences - everyone has them, just like opinions.
You prefer commercial block - fine, that's your right.
BUT do not dismiss HHBs as a "popular opinion" UNLESS and UNTIL you can prove that they are, indeed, a bad idea.
Share your personal opinions as such and do not post misinformation about something you really have no experience with.

So far all the wordy verbose stuff you posted with pseudo scientific and pseudo critical points is just your personal opinion and the opinion of those rehabbers who cannot get over "nuts are listed first in HHBs."

So for now I will repeat what I DO know in my experience with all the squirrels whom I've known personally and the squirrels of the rehabbers whose work I got to observe:

1) Not one squirrel had MBD on HHBs
2) Many MBD squirrels recovered on HHBs as their primary block.
3) I, personally, have been using HHBs for years now, so I speak from my own experience as well.
4) HHBs use no fillers. And since I even bake my own, I know exactly there is no cruddy stuff like in comm. block.

YOu do not want to use HHBs - fine.
But UNTIL you can prove that they are bad - you have no ground to dismiss them as "popular opinion."
Also, unless and until you have personal experience with HHBs (which you do not as you do not want to use them as prescribed) - your opinion is uninformed and it has no ground to stand again the testimony of the people who have been using HHBs.


I offer my opinions and recommendations based on what I feel is best for the squirrels regardless of how popular my opinion may or may not be. -- again - keep your opinions as opinions, and until you can provide the same scientific base for your "opinions" regarding comm. block as you demand for HHBs and your "feelings" of what's best for squirrels, you cannot dismiss HHBs as a "popular opinion." So far, it's been your "opinion" and your "feelings" against other rehabbers' personal experience with HHBs.


I'll stop here as I've already written more than this whole "issue" deserves, and I have neither desire nor more time to waste on repeating myself uselessly.

[astra]

Oh good greif! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/word/einstein-wtf-smiley-emoticon.png So everything and everyone has to be under "dissection" biased on your opinion.
Makes me wonder how this board ever survived all these years before that self imposed pedestal was erected??

yes, too often those who erect their own pedestals are the ones who demand that everything and everyone be "dissected" EXCEPT FOR their own unexamined "opinions" and assumptions.
If they applied to their "preferred opinions" the same kind of absolute rigour to which they subject others, they would have not a pebble to stand on.
As the biblical saying goes, some are so eager to pull a mote out of another's eye, that they miss a log in their own. ;)

[lilidukes]

Chances are that unless those blocks are offered when they first start nibbling solid foods, they wouldn't eat them anyway. And you can absolutely forget feeding them after they've tasted the HH blocks, it won't happen. I would prefer to make my own blocks like you are doing. Is the recipe you provided the complete recipe, and do you vary the ingredients?

I don't do babies anymore unless they are
injured or sick. I deal with a lot of adult
wilds. ALL of the squirrels here eat my
homemade version of HHB's even wilds.
I did not make up the recipe it is all
within the guidelines provided by Leigh
at Henry's. I use the higher side of the
whey protein because I have flyers too.
I've only played with what kind of nuts
I use to entice the squirrels to eat protein
and vitamins.
That is exactly what I use to make them
except I multiply it times 4 and make huge
batches twice a week. That's how many
squirrels I feed.
I throw away veggies not block.

[Daisey007]

I truly have no time for useless going "back and forth" online regarding issues that do not warrant such discussions.

So, will try to be brief:

1) ALL squirrels that I know who use HHBs NEVER get MBD. And it is safe to say that most of the squirrels who use HHBs have come through this board primarily.
The squirrels who were literally raised from the dead on HHBs alone (with no other block added) have also gone through this board.

However, regarding all specifics and all calculations that went to HHBs - talk to Henryspets. That's their product and that kind of information should be addressed by them only. So, go ahead.

MOREOVER, since you are the one who brought this up and just can't stop - the burden of proof is on you, that is - unless you can provide the same unquestionable and absolute proof of the commercial rodent block's infallibility and superiority to HHBs -- you have no right to demand that kind of proof from HHBs. In case it is not clear, I will use your own questions to ask YOU about the commercial block (e.g., mazuri and whatever else you "touted"):

1) Most commercial blocks use all sorts of fillers, corn and whatnot - that stuff that isn't good for rodents. So, Can you provide the scientific calculation for the "carefully calculated" vitamins and minerals that "neutralize any and all negative effects of" all these harmful fillers that make all these commercial blocks somehow better than HHBs? - please provide the absolute proof, the same proof you require of HHBs. YOu keep insisting that comm. block is better, but you never address the fillers, corn, soy and other stuff used in them. So, the burden of proof is on you.

2) You wrote: "You, nor anyone else, can say with any amount of certainty that "not one single squirrel ever developed MBD while on HH Blocks".
--- If that's how you want to talk, fine then - again, since you insist that commercial block is better and safer than HHBs, please prove that "YOU can say with any amount of certainty" that no single squirrel ever developed MBD while on commercial block.
Again, since this is the kind of certainty you pin against HHBs - the burden is on you to prove that the commercial block which you consider superior to HHBs can provide this sort of certainty.

3) As for 40 years of rehab, or any amount of years of rehab, or all the years of rehab and stuff - that does not mean much. THere are plenty of rehabbers who have been doing it for many years and still do not use best practices. There are many rehabbers who truly do not know what they are doing despite all the years.

As the saying goes - some people live the same day their whole lives.

Besides, with all due respect, your rehab exp. tells me nothing because I do not know you, and I do not know what your rehab skills are like.
BUT the rehabbers whom I have in mind when I talk about squirrels who recovered from MBD on HHBs - these rehabbers I know, I've seen them in action, I've seen the very squirrels who recovered on HHBs alone. And these rehabbers, too, have many years behind their belt.
So, it's their experience against yours.
Besides, personally, I disagree with some of the things you shared here from your rehab experience. I am not going to go into this as it is irrelevant, but just saying. So, in my book that doesn't add a lot of credibility to your "40 yrs of rehab"

In addition, I've also seen vets and docs with many years of practice (like your "40 yrs of rehab experience") - and honestly, there is a tendency among older vets and docs not to explore newer developments and/or procedures. They prefer to stick to their old habitual ways even if there may be better new ones. So, your "40 yrs" of rehab experience may suggest something like that, too.

So, whichever way one looks at it - "40yrs of rehab" is not a good argument, because it may mean many different things, and some of them aren't great.
THat makes your self-reflecting appeal to your number of years not a good argument.

4) As for a vet who recommended or not recommended HHBs for MBD - same as above.
There are knowledgeable vets who keep up with newer developments, and there are those who don't. There are inquisitive vets who explore new things, and there are those who don't. There are brighter vets, and there are average vets. Same as with human doctors - there are doctors and there are doctors; likewise - there are vets and there are vets.
How has it happened that your vet's opinion on HHBs is somehow indicative of HHBs' value? - this is totally illogical, how is this even an argument??... oh well.

5) UNTIL you can provide the same kind of "scientific," "statistical" and whatever/whichever other proofs for the absolute superiority of commercial block that you demand for HHBs - you have no argument, you have no ground to stand on, other than your "preferred opinion."
UNLESS you can say with the same certainty you require from HHBs that "Not one squirrel became ill with MBD on commercial block" - you have no right to demand that from HHBs.

6) ALL commercial rodent block is calculated for rats. So, since rat data was also used for HHBs (and I am not even going to go into the squirrel part here just to keep it simple) - it appears that both the commercial block and the HHBs which you vilify are based on the same scientific data about rats. So, if they are all based on pretty much the same data, how is that comm. block is somehow superior? ... and while you are at it with all this "Nuts" stuff - explain to me how is it that some comm. block brands use corn and soy, and whatnot and how that is great for squirrels, and how that is superior to HHBs.

And that goes for each and every point you made against HHBs - prove conclusively that commercial block is superior and then you have something to argue with.

BUT until you can conclusively prove that commercial block is superior to HHBs and HHBs are a bad idea - you have no grounds to demand that kind of "proof" from HHBs.
AND here where the main point was of my original reply to you:

You can have your own preferences - everyone has them, just like opinions.
You prefer commercial block - fine, that's your right.
BUT do not dismiss HHBs as a "popular opinion" UNLESS and UNTIL you can prove that they are, indeed, a bad idea.
Share your personal opinions as such and do not post misinformation about something you really have no experience with.

So far all the wordy verbose stuff you posted with pseudo scientific and pseudo critical points is just your personal opinion and the opinion of those rehabbers who cannot get over "nuts are listed first in HHBs."

So for now I will repeat what I DO know in my experience with all the squirrels whom I've known personally and the squirrels of the rehabbers whose work I got to observe:

1) Not one squirrel had MBD on HHBs
2) Many MBD squirrels recovered on HHBs as their primary block.
3) I, personally, have been using HHBs for years now, so I speak from my own experience as well.
4) HHBs use no fillers. And since I even bake my own, I know exactly there is no cruddy stuff like in comm. block.

YOu do not want to use HHBs - fine.
But UNTIL you can prove that they are bad - you have no ground to dismiss them as "popular opinion."
Also, unless and until you have personal experience with HHBs (which you do not as you do not want to use them as prescribed) - your opinion is uninformed and it has no ground to stand again the testimony of the people who have been using HHBs.

-- again - keep your opinions as opinions, and until you can provide the same scientific base for your "opinions" regarding comm. block as you demand for HHBs and your "feelings" of what's best for squirrels, you cannot dismiss HHBs as a "popular opinion." So far, it's been your "opinion" and your "feelings" against other rehabbers' personal experience with HHBs.


I'll stop here as I've already written more than this whole "issue" deserves, and I have neither desire nor more time to waste on repeating myself uselessly.

C'est la vie :Love_Icon

[Spanky]

I would opine that for folks that are raising a squirrel or two and not dozens (or hundreds?) every season, the Henry's Healthy Block is the easier (and proven reliable) path in terms of the squirrels' willingness to readily eat them.:peace

I agree with Astra that the ensuing discussion about block is for more advanced and experienced folks to have... I am not opposed to using CRB (Commercial Rat Block) but I believe its use is best left for experienced folks (and tough love types).

I am sticking with my original endorsement (:rotfl) of using HHB, especially for newbies to squirrel raising.

Now I am very curious what decision you "newbies" have made: HHB or commercial? :thinking
(Of course, I think you'd be crazy to wade in here and share your decision!:laugh1)

Or maybe this discussion has simply made you more :confused: than ever?!?!

Maybe now we should resurrect the scalded milk debate? :jk

[Ekorre]

I'm new to the board and am doing all I can to educate myself about every aspect of caring for squirrels. It's interesting to read a variety of opinions & I have enormous respect for those of you who are so knowledgeable & experienced. :bowdown:Love_Icon:bowdown:Love_Icon

The goal is safe, healthy, happy squirrels...and if that *is* the result...does it really matter how it's accomplished? :hidechair :grouphug

As a "newbie" who has never raised a squirrel (but may at some point in the future), I don't know what I'd choose.

I spent a lot of money having 3 pounds of Oxbow Regal Rat Adult Food sent to me here in the UK so I could make Boo Balls for the wild squirrel I was feeding with teeth issues. I wasn't thrilled with some of the ingredients (soy, for example), but it was a far cry better than any of the "rat food" that's available here.

What surprised me is how much the Oxbow rat food stinks! No matter what I added to it, it just smelled awful! I never got a chance to see if my little squirrel would eat the Boo Balls I made with it (my precious squirrel was attacked by a cat and subsequently died :boohoo). One of the other wild squirrels I feed actually gave me a dirty look when I tried to give her some of the Oxbow. Does that mean no one should use it? Of course not!

If I could get HHBs here in the UK (they cost an absolute fortune to have shipped from the U.S.), I'd give them a go. I'm also interested in some of the homemade recipes I've seen on this board and elsewhere. :Love_Icon

[cava]

Now I am very curious what decision you "newbies" have made: HHB or commercial? :thinking




I'm currently using CRB but have ordered HHB. They are eating the CRB which is a good thing as it is seems to be a tasteless ball of sawdust. Because of that I'll give a little piece of HHB to every 2 CRB so hopefully they'll eat both.

We'll see how it goes. :grin3

[island rehabber]

I was probably one of Henry's pets' first customers and have fed them to my rehab babies for the past6-7 years; thst would be appx 140 -150 squirrels.
I start babies when eyes open with zupreem monkey bisciits. At 8 wks old they get HHBs ffirst thing in the am and i raise healthy, sttong squirrels. Never had a case of MBD here.

[Daisey007]

I actually use Zupreem Monkey biscuits as well.

And Daisey was 9 yrs old when she developed MBD from nursing complications. Chewy refused all blocks and was 3 when he died of Hemangiosarcoma.

[island rehabber]

Hypocalcemia can and does occur in nursing mammals regardless of diet. But I will stand behind HHBs for squirrels in rehab or in captivity with few exceptions.

(Sorry for typos, TSB...I am on my phone.)

[island rehabber]

Hypocalcemia can and dies occur in nursing mammals regardless of diet. But I will stand behind HHBs for squirrels in rehab or in captivity with few exceptions.

(Sorry for typos, TSB...I am on my phone.)

[KarmaKay]

[QUOTE=Daisey007;1177054]I actually use Zupreem Monkey biscuits as well.

And Daisey was 9 yrs old when she developed MBD from nursing complications. Chewy refused all blocks and was 3 when he died of Hemangiosarcoma.[/QUOTI
I also use zupreem monkey biscuits

[Carreegirl]

Pumpkin loves his hhb's and peanut stix from Henry's but it is to much to feed my 3 released squirrels so what do you guys feed your wilds and your released squirrels? They refuse veggies, will eat avacodo and sweet potato. I'm really not sure if they eat the mazuri I put out or just hide them

[KarmaKay]

You don't start weaning... you hope they take formula for as long as they are in your care. It provides great nutrition and guards against MBD. But they will eventually wean themselves...



See previous answer? :grin



Variety is the key to great nutrition... I provide a fresh buffet twice a day.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?44440-Healthy-Diet-for-Pet-Squirrels



No... especially if they are taking formula!!! :grin :grin (double grin!)



8 weeks is old enough... I like to have both a dish of water and a water bottle. It helps to put small (clean) pebbles or marbles in the dish until they get the hang of drinking... helps prevent them from sticking their snout too far into the water.



Never place a squirrel in direct sunlight without a shady retreat. They suffer sun stroke way too easily (even if it is not very warm out). Personally I would not worry about outdoor / deck time for at least a few more weeks!

That's a great idea to put the pebbles in there til they get the hang of it. Thanks!

[KarmaKay]

Again, contrary to popular belief, I would only feed HH Blocks as a small occasional snack or 'treat'. I would wean and transition from formula directly to rodent blocks, lab rat chow or mazuri blocks. They taste horrible and grown squirrels won't touch them, HOWEVER, baby squirrels don't know any better, so they tend to accept them and eventually love them. They have been laboratory tested and proven to be nutritious for squirrels and are a better value for your money. After you transition onto those you may begin adding addition vegetables, fruits, and a few nuts. The primary ingredient in HH Blocks 'EVEN after the addition of everything else' is NUTS. In my own opinion, we should always avoid nuts, and no food should become a primary source of critical nutrition in which the 'PRIMARY' ingredient is nuts. I'm just not that trusting with the little guys I raise...

I like the Zupreem monkey biscuits and my squirrel love them as they are learning to eat solid foods, while still taking formula. I also have a deer antler in their cage for a natural source of calcium.

[KarmaKay]

:Squirrel:idea:Squirrel
Thank you Astra for the lengthy authoritative tout regarding HH Blocks. Please allow me to clarify my position regarding my response, and to ask you some questions that may help me to have a better understanding of HH Blocks.

I want to first point out that my statement is my own personal opinion but it's not based on "lack of knowledge" as I have a forty, yes 40, year history in science, which is the exact amount of years that I've been rehabilitating squirrels. So, please, don't assume that just because my 'opinion' differs from yours that it's based on "lack of knowledge".

The way you defend HH blocks, rather than recognizing a difference of opinion based on our individual knowledge and preferences,
makes me wonder if you own or have a stake in HH Blocks? I have no strong loyalties in favor of any product that I mentioned. I have no strong negative opinions against HH blocks except to say they shouldn't be the sole source of 'critical nutrients'. I feel they're fine for treats.

You, nor anyone else, can say with any amount of certainty that "not one single squirrel ever developed MBD while on HH Blocks".
Simply because you are unaware of it doesn't make it a fact. Since no scientific research was done using HH blocks, that I'm aware
of or I have seen, you have no statistical data to support that claim. Simply put, you don't know what you don't know. I think it's fair to say that the jury is still out on that. With that said, any claim regarding health i.e. MBD, is considered a drug claim, and drug claims are unacceptable on animal feed products by law.

You mentioned that the blocks were formulated "specifically for squirrels with rat data" as a foundation. Well, let's look at that. Just
how much does a squirrel have in common with a rat? Answer, almost nothing! In fact: the only thing they have in common is the rate in which their teeth grow per year and that's all. Procreation, gestation, number of young per litter, rearing, habitats, behavior, and DIET (in non captive animals) are extremely different. Granted squirrels are usually categorized with rats but that fact is why we keep coming up short in our care and treatment for squirrels. So, to compare the two species based solely on the rate in which their teeth grow is not only poor practice but "misinformation". Since we don't truly know what the critical nutrients should be for squirrels, we shouldn't consider HH Blocks to be the sole source of critical nutrients as it is often referenced as being so, or based on popular belief anyway, since it's based solely on rat data.

Now let's talk science...
Can you provide the scientific calculation for the "carefully calculated" vitamins and minerals that "neutralize any and all negative effects of the nuts"? Does it 'negate' the positive effects of nuts too? I have not been able to locate such data and would be interested in seeing it. Also, do you know where I might find a certified analysis report from a laboratory on HH Blocks? I've looked on the packages of HH Block and I don't see an analysis report that is common on other packaged animal food products but they are not always required to be on animal products. I'm interested in what effect baking may or may not have on the nutrients? I guess a quest for knowledge is from my scientific background but I'm just not trusting without supporting scientific data.

I have many concerns regarding HH blocks being considered the holy grail of squirrel food, and only a few are mentioned here. I certainly understand the principle behind primary ingredients being listed by weight but felt it simpler to site that than to elaborate my concerns in detail, and for that I apologize. I do not feel that HH blocks are bad per se, however, I also don't feel they should be considered THE primary critical care nutrient food source for squirrels without some scientific data to backup the claims.. Without true scientific data, the squirrels HERE are the ones in the test tube! Rather than attempt to make someone appear "uninformed" because their knowledge, skills and opinions differ from yours... maybe ask why they have a different opinion than yours.

At no point did my wildlife veterinarian ever recommend HH blocks when my Daisy had MDB, nor have I ever read anything that indicated that any other veterinarian recommended HH blocks. I feel it's a grave mistake to recommend or endorse a product without full scientific knowledge of that product, and not have a single veterinarian to officially recommend the product.

The one thing we all have in common is that we LOVE squirrels and we all want what is best for them. We all bring unique skills and abilities to the board that can benefit all members. I offer my opinions and recommendations based on what I feel is best for the squirrels regardless of how popular my opinion may or may not be.


What a very insightful viewpoint! I never thought about it from that perspective. I think you have very valid points, and as a new rehabbers I respect and appreciate your ideas and input. What are your recommendations as far as diet, or what's your routine? Thank you very much!:grin2

P.s. I respect love the diversity and huge knowledge base that the board provides.

[SammysMom]

Pumpkin loves his hhb's and peanut stix from Henry's but it is to much to feed my 3 released squirrels so what do you guys feed your wilds and your released squirrels? They refuse veggies, will eat avacodo and sweet potato. I'm really not sure if they eat the mazuri I put out or just hide them

I assume that those who are released eat their own healthy diet. I put nuts in shells on feeders and thats it except the few exceptions who will take an hhb wild bite in the morning when i hand out breakfast.

[KarmaKay]

I agree with Astra that the ensuing discussion about block is for more advanced and experienced folks to have... I am not opposed to using CRB (Commercial Rat Block) but I believe its use is best left for experienced folks (and tough love types).

I am sticking with my original endorsement (:rotfl) of using HHB, especially for newbies to squirrel raising.

Now I am very curious what decision you "newbies" have made: HHB or commercial? :thinking
(Of course, I think you'd be crazy to wade in here and share your decision!:laugh1)

Or maybe this discussion has simply made you more :confused: than ever?!?!

Maybe now we should resurrect the scalded milk debate? :jk






:laugh2:deadhorse: I just have to say that all of you wonderful people are so passionate a:blowkissBout your love for squirrels, and I 😍 it! IMHO I think that HHB's for the newbie squirrel parent is a great choice!

[KarmaKay]

I was probably one of Henry's pets' first customers and have fed them to my rehab babies for the past6-7 years; thst would be appx 140 -150 squirrels.
I start babies when eyes open with zupreem monkey bisciits. At 8 wks old they get HHBs ffirst thing in the am and i raise healthy, sttong squirrels. Never had a case of MBD here.

This is exactly what I do!:serene