Choking

[rewing04]

My 5 week old eastern grey squirrel is having an extremely hard time eating liquid food. I have her on esbilac taking 6 ml in a 3 ml syringe. She gets so excited when she eats that she takes too much too fast and can't breathe. I've tried smaller syringes and feeding her slower but it still happens. I tried to give her a pear slice since they're soft and she liked it but started choking again. I don't know what to feed her or what's wrong. Any help is appreciated, this has never happened to me before.

[stepnstone]

My 5 week old eastern grey squirrel is having an extremely hard time eating liquid food. I have her on esbilac taking 6 ml in a 3 ml syringe. She gets so excited when she eats that she takes too much too fast and can't breathe. I've tried smaller syringes and feeding her slower but it still happens. I tried to give her a pear slice since they're soft and she liked it but started choking again. I don't know what to feed her or what's wrong. Any help is appreciated, this has never happened to me before.

The care taker has to control the flow of syringe even if it means holding back on the plunger so they do not do what you describe.
What does her breathing sound like? Do you hear any click(s) when she breathes?
How much does this baby weigh? How often do you feed?
Can you post a picture?

[rewing04]

The care taker has to control the flow of syringe even if it means holding back on the plunger so they do not do what you describe.
What does her breathing sound like? Do you hear any click(s) when she breathes?
How much does this baby weigh? How often do you feed?
Can you post a picture?

I've done everything I can to feed her slowly and no matter how slow I go she still ends up the same way. I was feeding her every 5 hours and I don't hear her clicking at all. I don't have a scale to weigh her.276218

[HRT4SQRLS]

Are you feeding the baby with the head up? Never tilt them back like a human baby. They do get very excited to eat and will pull the plunger down with their vigorous, forceful sucking. It you have to, pull back on the plunger to slow the delivery.

I see eyes so I would go ahead and gets some rodent block for the baby to nibble on. You can order Henry's Healthy Blocks or you can purchase Mazuri rodent block at PetsMart, etc.
I'm not suggesting weaning the baby. Offer the block in addition to the formula.

Scales are pretty cheap. A kitchen scale from Walmart will work. Online they are as low as $10.

[Daisey007]

I've done everything I can to feed her slowly and no matter how slow I go she still ends up the same way. I was feeding her every 5 hours and I don't hear her clicking at all. I don't have a scale to weigh her.276218

When you say "choke" are you saying that she clogs her airway - OR - are you saying that she inhales it and she coughs and it comes out her nose etc.?

[Daisey007]

If you're saying she sucks so hard that she inhales and coughs and it runs out then I suggest that you 1) use a nipple on the syringe which will restrict the flow and 2)thicken the formula with rice cereal. Then she can suck harder without causing such potentially dangerous side effects.

Lord... I wish you could get her to GA, I'd love to have her. She's beautiful! Is she black?

[Gardentoes11]

By "choking" I wonder if you're referring to what we call "guppy mouth?" In this video, you'll see that it looks like this baby is choking or gasping for air while eating. Is this what you're seeing? [https://youtu.be/E25ynfqQlZU

If this is what has you concerned, you can relax. Some babies just do this! I've had a couple who were TERRIBLE with the guppy mouth, starting it almost as soon as the syringe touched their lips, & feeding them would take FOREVER bc I didn't want them to aspirate & they seemed to have so little control of themselves when they'd go into this guppy-mouth trance. However, they each eventually grew out of it. One is enjoying life in the trees & the other chose to make his life here at home with his mama!

I hope this helps.

[pappy1264]

Maybe she is really hungry. Maybe trying a little sooner then every 5 hours? Are you using o-ring syringes and a nipple? You really need to get a scale and a weight to know how much to feed. Just relooked at her pic, she is not getting enough food. I have one right now about the same size who is getting 12 cc's every 4 hours. She is likely starving, causing her to inhale her food. Although you need to get a scale, I would give her more food and move back to 4 hours.

Here is the link for my thread, so you can see pics: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?54558-Little-Jax-and-Opie&p=1172191#post1172191

[rewing04]

By "choking" I wonder if you're referring to what we call "guppy mouth?" In this video, you'll see that it looks like this baby is choking or gasping for air while eating. Is this what you're seeing? [https://youtu.be/E25ynfqQlZU

If this is what has you concerned, you can relax. Some babies just do this! I've had a couple who were TERRIBLE with the guppy mouth, starting it almost as soon as the syringe touched their lips, & feeding them would take FOREVER bc I didn't want them to aspirate & they seemed to have so little control of themselves when they'd go into this guppy-mouth trance. However, they each eventually grew out of it. One is enjoying life in the trees & the other chose to make his life here at home with his mama!

I hope this helps.

Yes that's exactly what's happening to her! So she'll be okay as long as I just feed her slower and give her time? Thank you so much :)

[rewing04]

Maybe she is really hungry. Maybe trying a little sooner then every 5 hours? Are you using o-ring syringes and a nipple? You really need to get a scale and a weight to know how much to feed. Just relooked at her pic, she is not getting enough food. I have one right now about the same size who is getting 12 cc's every 4 hours. She is likely starving, causing her to inhale her food. Although you need to get a scale, I would give her more food and move back to 4 hours.

Here is the link for my thread, so you can see pics: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?54558-Little-Jax-and-Opie&p=1172191#post1172191

I'll definitely start feeding her more and sooner. I had seen a guide that said to feed them as many cc's as they are weeks old and she's turning 6. I'll fix that for her and her brother, thank you!

[rewing04]

If you're saying she sucks so hard that she inhales and coughs and it runs out then I suggest that you 1) use a nipple on the syringe which will restrict the flow and 2)thicken the formula with rice cereal. Then she can suck harder without causing such potentially dangerous side effects.

Lord... I wish you could get her to GA, I'd love to have her. She's beautiful! Is she black?

It used to run out of her nose but I fixed that really quickly. I tried using a nipple when I first got her but she didn't like it. I'll try thickening it like you said. She's not black as far as I know just a very dark brown. I've never had one as dark as her, thank you :)

[stepnstone]

I have to disagree with the addition of rice cereal used in formula unless one is attempting to
get diarrhea under control in which case it does help to firm the bowels but even then should
only be used as a temporary measure. As long as one is feeding a proper formula it contains all
the nutrients that is needed. Some babies may require a little more fat in their diet and that is
where the whipping cream comes in.
I would not be regularly feeding formula with rice cereal in it as any part of a nutritional diet for
a squirrel. Squirrels do not eat rice in the wild and their systems process differently then that of
a human baby.

Obtaining a scale for proper feeding (and medication if needed) is extreamly important!
The feeding cc's by the weeks of babies age is entirely ridiculous! One can be small to a litter,
others can be much larger in the same litter. Feeding the same per weeks of age could be over
feeding one that can lead to diarrhea and gestational upset while starving another by underfeeding.
This is one of the major reasons why knowing the weights of individual babies is so important to
their health and development.

[Daisey007]

I have to disagree with the addition of rice cereal used in formula unless one is attempting to
get diarrhea under control in which case it does help to firm the bowels but even then should
only be used as a temporary measure. As long as one is feeding a proper formula it contains all
the nutrients that is needed. Some babies may require a little more fat in their diet and that is
where the whipping cream comes in.
I would not be regularly feeding formula with rice cereal in it as any part of a nutritional diet for
a squirrel. Squirrels do not eat rice in the wild and their systems process differently then that of
a human baby.

Obtaining a scale for proper feeding (and medication if needed) is extreamly important!
The feeding cc's by the weeks of babies age is entirely ridiculous! One can be small to a litter,
others can be much larger in the same litter. Feeding the same per weeks of age could be over
feeding one that can lead to diarrhea and gestational upset while starving another by underfeeding.
This is one of the major reasons why knowing the weights of individual babies is so important to
their health and development.

I've fed all of my babies rice cereal over the past 40 years with great results. I still use it, and will continue to use it as it adds additional nutrition to their diet with zero side effects. Esbilac and whipping cream are also not consumed in the wild by squirrels... but apparently do well, or so I've read.

Most kitchen grade scales or balances are not sensitive enough to accurately weigh small quantities of medications.

[stepnstone]

I've fed all of my babies rice cereal over the past 40 years with great results. I still use it, and will continue to use it as it adds additional nutrition to their diet with zero side effects. Esbilac and whipping cream are also not consumed in the wild by squirrels... but apparently do well, or so I've read.
Obviously we have different opinions on the use of rice cereal, http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/i-dunno-hand-gesture-smiley-emoticon.gif to each their own.



Most kitchen grade scales or balances are not sensitive enough to accurately weigh small quantities of medications.
Where did this come from? I didn't say anything about weighing medications on a scale! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/forehead-slap-smiley-emoticon.gif
My reference to the importance of obtaining a scale even for "meds if needed" is again directed at the
importance of knowing a squirrels weight since all meds for squirrels are dosed by it's body weight.

[Daisey007]

Obviously we have different opinions on the use of rice cereal, http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/i-dunno-hand-gesture-smiley-emoticon.gif to each their own.


Where did this come from? I didn't say anything about weighing medications on a scale! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/forehead-slap-smiley-emoticon.gif
My reference to the importance of obtaining a scale even for "meds if needed" is again directed at the
importance of knowing a squirrels weight since all meds for squirrels are dosed by it's body weight.

As a chemist with access to highly sensitive equipment, I frequently DO crush tables using a mortar and pestle and then accurately and precisely weigh out medications to 3-5 decimal places, i.e. "0.000 or 0.0000 mg". Most recently with Daisy, she was prescribed 5 mg/kg of Tramadol and I was given a 50 mg tablet. Since she only weighed 1 pound and a kg = 2.2 pounds, I needed ~ 1/20th of that tablet. The whole tablet weighed ~ 0.47 -0.495 g. I divided that by 20 to get the sum of how much each dose must weigh to accurately dose 5 mg/kg. Therefore, I weighed out 0.0235 to 0.02475 g per dose and placed it into individual vials. And no, a kitchen scale does not have the sensitivity or precision to weigh out "medications" to 3-5 decimal places like that. But you are correct, and I'm sure meant to convey, that a kitchen scale is necessary to weigh the animal so that one can accurately calculate how much medication is needed per body weight... even though it's impossible to weigh the actual medication on that same scale.

[stepnstone]

rewing, good luck with your little one and I hope you get her feedings worked out. :grouphug
Please share more pictures so we too can watch her grow. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/smile/happy-nodding-smiley-face-emoticon.gif

[UDoWhat]

A scale is the most important tool that we have to accurately weigh our babies for formula and med. amounts. I know others have stressed this in their posts. They can be purchased readily, and for not much money, at a store like Bed, Bath and Beyond. I do a lot of pinkies so I have a scale that weighs to the 1/10 of a gram. But a kitchen scale will do the trick.

I do wish I had the knowledge and equipment that Daisey has. (Great to have that knowledge at TSB!! :w00t). Since most rehabilitators don't have a scale as precise, we have to rely on dilutions of meds and then figure the dose needed per the dilution.

rewing, glad you found TBS. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience at TSB, in particular, weaning diets and proper diets to raise healthy squirrels. The number one, two, three, four, five, ..... first food to introduce your squirrels to is a good rodent block. All other foods, IMHO, should come after your squirrel is eating block. Most of us use Henry's Healthy block supplement, Mazuri rodent block, Kaytee rodent block, etc.

Good luck with your precious babies!!:Love_Icon

[Daisey007]

A scale is the most important tool that we have to accurately weigh our babies for formula and med. amounts. I know others have stressed this in their posts. They can be purchased readily, and for not much money, at a store like Bed, Bath and Beyond. I do a lot of pinkies so I have a scale that weighs to the 1/10 of a gram. But a kitchen scale will do the trick.

I do wish I had the knowledge and equipment that Daisey has. (Great to have that knowledge at TSB!! :w00t). Since most rehabilitators don't have a scale as precise, we have to rely on dilutions of meds and then figure the dose needed per the dilution.

rewing, glad you found TBS. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience at TSB, in particular, weaning diets and proper diets to raise healthy squirrels. The number one, two, three, four, five, ..... first food to introduce your squirrels to is a good rodent block. All other foods, IMHO, should come after your squirrel is eating block. Most of us use Henry's Healthy block supplement, Mazuri rodent block, Kaytee rodent block, etc.

Good luck with your precious babies!!:Love_Icon

Thank you! It's great to have the knowledge that all of our members bring! TSB rocks!