WARNING DO NOT FEED Fox Valley 32/40

[Nancy in New York]

3 years ago, a discussion was started about pinkies not digesting Fox Valley 32/40 formula.
Seasoned rehabbers were losing babies, from undigested formula that sat in the babies tummies
like cement, with the milk line never disappearing.

I won't rehash the nightmares this caused.

Most people have since switched over to Powdered Puppy Esbilac for babies under 4 weeks
and some have continued with just the Esbilac until the squirrel is weaned.

This is just a reminder that Fox Valley 32/40 kills many/most pinkies, they cannot digest it.

We've been complacent about alerting members of this, thinking that most already knew.
I believe that after 3 years some felt the problem was rectified, (AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!!!)
because we don't bring it up.

However, in the past 3 years we have NOT recommended it to ANY new member, and this needs to be
mentioned again as a reminder.

This just happened again to a seasoned rehabber. She fed Fox Valley 32/40 and it sat like cement.
Three of the babies have died.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?54401-4-pinks-please-read

Discussion from 8/2013

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?41878-FOX-VALLEY-amp-PINKIES-Discussion-Thread&highlight=Fox+Valley

[Radagast]

Esbilac is safe now? My pinkie got terrible diarrhea 3 years ago... I switched to fox valley and she was better almost immediately. I boiled the fox valley after mixing it with water. I don't expect to ever rehab another squirrel as I'll hand it over to a licensed now that I know how to reach one, but if that ever fell through I want to know what to do. Oh my gosh! I'm so sorry you lost those poor babies!:Love_Icon

[CritterMom]

Yup. Esbilac addressed what was wrong with their formula and it is a good thing they did, because that was the point where the FV 32/40 turned into something better used to mud over drywall joints than feed to little fragile babies...

The 20/50 can be used in a 50/50 mixture - half 20/50 and half esbilac for older babies but the 32/40 should only be used to fill your garbage can...

[Radagast]

Good to know. Oh my gosh!

[DaSquirrelMom]

Fox Valley 32/40 and 20/50 doesn't completely dissolve until after it has been mixed with water for over 4 hours. It is better when it has been mixed for over 8 hours.

It must be added to water that is over 180 F (hot not warm as the instructions state) to completely dissolve it.

[stepnstone]

Fox Valley 32/40 and 20/50 doesn't completely dissolve until after it has been mixed with water for over 4 hours. It is better when it has been mixed for over 8 hours.

It must be added to water that is over 180 F (hot not warm as the instructions state) to completely dissolve it.

Moot point with 32/40, TSB still does not recommend the use of FV32/40 for obvious reasons as stated below.


3 years ago, a discussion was started about pinkies not digesting Fox Valley 32/40 formula.
Seasoned rehabbers were losing babies, from undigested formula that sat in the babies tummies
like cement, with the milk line never disappearing.

I won't rehash the nightmares this caused.

Most people have since switched over to Powdered Puppy Esbilac for babies under 4 weeks
and some have continued with just the Esbilac until the squirrel is weaned.

This is just a reminder that Fox Valley 32/40 kills many/most pinkies, they cannot digest it.

We've been complacent about alerting members of this, thinking that most already knew.
I believe that after 3 years some felt the problem was rectified, (AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!!!)
because we don't bring it up.

However, in the past 3 years we have NOT recommended it to ANY new member, and this needs to be
mentioned again as a reminder.

This just happened again to a seasoned rehabber. She fed Fox Valley 32/40 and it sat like cement.
Three of the babies have died.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?54401-4-pinks-please-read

Discussion from 8/2013

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?41878-FOX-VALLEY-amp-PINKIES-Discussion-Thread&highlight=Fox+Valley

[Duckman]

I had been using 32/40 with my pinkies until last year, when I had 2 bloat up very quickly. This year I am using nothing but Esbilac until after they are 10 days old and have had absolutely no problems whatsoever!

[Duckman]

One note. I did save both of mine, when they plugged up and I would be happy to discuss how to save them when they do bloat.

[island rehabber]

I'd love to hear what you did, Duckman -- I tried everything and lost them all.

[pixiepoo]

I had a lot of problems with Esbilac last year. They have now fixed the issue? Last year I ended up using FV 20/50 but it was an older bag I had stored in my freezer (made before the issues with FV arose).

[Mommaluvy]

I had a lot of problems with Esbilac last year. They have now fixed the issue? Last year I ended up using FV 20/50 but it was an older bag I had stored in my freezer (made before the issues with FV arose).


I also used 20:50 last year .. I thought this had been address and thought I would do it right this year .

Duck : would love to know how you did this ? However mine did not bloat until about an hour before their death. May have been from "death gasping" .

[Duckman]

The trick for me seemed to be getting in as much water, as quickly as possible, once you see and feel the hardness in the belly. Not sugar water or Pedilyte, but plain water. I did this every hour (giving about .2-.3 ml) and ensure you stimulate after each, for 2 reasons. 1. You have to get that water out of the bladder, and it will burst if you don't. 2. You want that water to start working on the crud in the belly. After 8-10 hours, you should start seeing some movement out of the bowel (they will continue to poop, but you will start to see it more watery, which is what you want). At that time, start introducing diluted formula at the ratio of 25% Esbilac, 75% water. Feed this for the first half day. The second half day, I bumped up the ration to 50/50. I fed this for a day and then went to 75% Esbilac, 25% water and introduced full food the next day (and the blockage was gone!). So far, I am at 100% success rate. One note though. I check my pinkies after every feeding, so see if their bellies are hard or squishy. I would suggest everyone get in the habit of checking them after every feeding as habit and you can't go wrong in catching them before they bloat up. Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not).

[DarkLies212]

Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not).

Do you happen to have some pictures of this? While I haven't had a pinkie in years, this is a wonderful learning experience and it's always best to be on the lookout - even if it's years more before I get a pinkie.

[Duckman]

Do you happen to have some pictures of this? While I haven't had a pinkie in years, this is a wonderful learning experience and it's always best to be on the lookout - even if it's years more before I get a pinkie.
I will look and see, but I don't think I do. You can't miss it though. You will see the bright white line from the crud, and it looks like an infection line (bright red) about a half inch to each side of the white belly line, then it lightens up to the pinkie color (if this makes sense).

[DarkLies212]

I will look and see, but I don't think I do. You can't miss it though. You will see the bright white line from the crud, and it looks like an infection line (bright red) about a half inch to each side of the white belly line, then it lightens up to the pinkie color (if this makes sense).

It makes sense! Thank you for describing it!

[Nancy in New York]

DarkLies, I know this isn't what you asked for,
but here is one of my little reds that was fed FV 32/40
This was 7 hours after he ate his last feeding. I could not
get the line to disappear, and was frantic.
He passed an hour after this photo was taken.
It was like SLUDGE in his poor tummy. :boohoo
AND the line appeared to get larger and larger
even without being fed!!!!!!!!!!!

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-K79wPpQ/0/M/i-K79wPpQ-M.jpg

[DarkLies212]

All I see is a photo icon thing, not a picture...looks like a little square Polaroid :(

Any pictures will help. The more I can learn now, the better I feel :hug

[Duckman]

It was like SLUDGE in his poor tummy. :boohoo
AND the line appeared to get larger and larger
even without being fed!!!!!!!!!!!

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-K79wPpQ/0/M/i-K79wPpQ-M.jpg

We did necropsies on several of ours that bloated and died, and found that the sludge is almost like packed sand in their bellies. That was the reason I decided to use the water the way I did. The best way to remove a sand bar is to use water to loosen it so it can wash away. That is exactly what happens too!

[Nancy in New York]

Thank you SO much Duckman for letting us know your method.
Hopefully nobody will ever buy this crap again. :shakehead
But if they do, at least we may have a way of helping now.

[Radagast]

:boohoo I am so sorry Nancy. That must have been so awful. I want to write the company. Poor little babies

[Skul]

If I recall correctly, the good Esbilac has "with pro-biotics" on the label.

[island rehabber]

That's right --- in a thin blue 'ribbon' around the top of the can. :great

[Nancy in New York]

If I recall correctly, the good Esbilac has "with pro-biotics" on the label.

If for some reason you can't find the one that says with probiotics in the BLUE banner
look at the ingredients, and the third one should be Dried Whey Protein Concentrate. :thumbsup

[Earltheofnutz]

Welp im freaked out now. I just ordered fv 20/50 for my earl whos almost 6 weeks.. i have had him on esbilac since got him. He doesnt eat much anymore prefers solid.. thats why in ordered that to help him gain better weight.. what ia thr problem with these formulas?both seem to have had issues in the last year or tqo can someone fill me in?

[Mel1959]

There is not a problem at the present time with Fox Valley 20/50. I have been using it for years. Many folks on here use a 50/50 mixture of Fox Valley 20/50 and Esbilac once their little ones eyes are open.

The problem is with the Fox Valley 32/40. It sits in the guts of the infant squirrels and turns to sludge/cement. The babies can't digest or pass it and they end up dying.

You're fine with Fox Valley 20/50. :grin2

[JLynne]

Is it okay to feed a 5-6 week old fox valley? Been using esbilac until my order of fox valley arrives.

[HRT4SQRLS]

The Fox Valley 20:50 for older babies is fine. The problems have been with the FV 32:40.

Some rehabber switch from Esbilac to FV 20:50.
Others stay with the Esbilac.
And some even use half Esbilac and half FoxValley 20:50.

[island rehabber]

TO the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever had issues with Fox Valley 20/50.
It's the 32/40 that has been extremely problematic for pinkies (4 weeks and under).

[stosh2010]

I wonder why--with all this empirical evidence, Nick has not changed the formula ? Does he personally produce the F.V. or is it outsourced ?
His reticence is costing him $$$$.

[island rehabber]

I wonder why--with all this empirical evidence, Nick has not changed the formula ? Does he personally produce the F.V. or is it outsourced ?
His reticence is costing him $$$$.

Two reasons, IMHO:

1. Most of the rehabbers he's dealing with don't do true neonates or pinkies. It's the rare few of us who actually enjoy getting up every 2 hours all night long for two weeks who had the worst horrors with 32/40. The majority of rehabbers who start with 4-week olds and take it from there have never had a problem. I actually know licensed rehabbers who have been active for 5-6 years now but have never EVER taken in a true pinky. This is why it seems as if we are a small but vocal minority and can be ignored.

2. Years ago when Nick's wife died, he became a very broken and changed man. He gave up most of the running and control of Fox Valley to his son and, I think, nephew or son-in-law. I believe they are outsourcing ingredients (probably from China) and something is amiss in the mix for 32/40. Nick just can't deal with it all...anymore.

JMHO.

[ashleyk1432]

One note. I did save both of mine, when they plugged up and I would be happy to discuss how to save them when they do bloat.

please how did you save a bloated baby????

[ashleyk1432]

TO the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever had issues with Fox Valley 20/50.
It's the 32/40 that has been extremely problematic for pinkies (4 weeks and under).

i was so worried i am a first time rehabber for squirrels i am wanting to help i have experience with puppies and kittens and just want to do my part as a animal lover
but my baby is now around 5 weeks and i just took her slowly from esbilac to 20/50fv she seems do be doing good but the one thing is i have to have almost 12 1cc syringes because if i use anything larger she acts like its getting in her nose although i feed the same about and at the same pace i am now scared of her getting pneumonia please tell me any tip that will help her slow down nursing so i don't hurt her she is thriving and playing with toys i have given her to help her learn things like twigs and wood blocks i just don't want her ending up sick

[CritterMom]

You need to change the way you hold the syringe. When they are little babies, you need to push on the end of the plunger in order to deposit the formula in their mouths. As you have discovered, that ends!

I am right handed. I hold my hand open, face up, and place the syringe across my hand right where the fingers meet the palm, with the tip and nipple extending past my pinkie finger. I usually situate it so that the shoulders of the syringe are sitting between my ring and middle finger. So when I curl my fingers around the syringe like I am holding it in my fist, my ring and pinkie are curled around the barrel of the syringe but my middle and index are around the long stem of the plunger. I can push with my thumb if I need to, and when I see that they are taking control and actually sucking the milk out, I just tighten down on the fingers that are around the plunger. If that plunger can't move that baby can suck his darned self inside out and he isn't going to get another drop until I say so.

Play with one of the syringes without the baby and find a comfortable way to hold it that allows you to have at least one of your fingers curled around the plunger to prevent it from moving.

It won't take long to find his rhythm so you can fill him up without his choking himself.

[Spanky]

please how did you save a bloated baby????

Here is Duckman's post about bloated babies..

"The trick for me seemed to be getting in as much water, as quickly as possible, once you see and feel the hardness in the belly. Not sugar water or Pedilyte, but plain water. I did this every hour (giving about .2-.3 ml) and ensure you stimulate after each, for 2 reasons. 1. You have to get that water out of the bladder, and it will burst if you don't. 2. You want that water to start working on the crud in the belly. After 8-10 hours, you should start seeing some movement out of the bowel (they will continue to poop, but you will start to see it more watery, which is what you want). At that time, start introducing diluted formula at the ratio of 25% Esbilac, 75% water. Feed this for the first half day. The second half day, I bumped up the ration to 50/50. I fed this for a day and then went to 75% Esbilac, 25% water and introduced full food the next day (and the blockage was gone!). So far, I am at 100% success rate. One note though. I check my pinkies after every feeding, so see if their bellies are hard or squishy. I would suggest everyone get in the habit of checking them after every feeding as habit and you can't go wrong in catching them before they bloat up. Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not). "

[Joyful]

My little nugget just died. It makes me very sad. Now I know, cause of you all, not to use FV with pinkies. This is not the first time that a pinkie had a milk line that would not go away. Now I know why.

Thanks again,
Joyful (not so joyful now)

[HRT4SQRLS]

I am so sorry Joyful. :sadness That makes me sad also.

[SammysMom]

Godspeed precious baby... :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

I am so very sorry, Joyful... :sad

[Nancy in New York]

I'm so sorry to read this Joyful. :(

Rest in Peace
Precious Little One. 308042

[island rehabber]

I am so sorry, Joyful.....RIP little one. :sad

[Thecityman]

can anyone tell me the difference in the Pro Ag Esbilac Puppy Milk replacer powder and the Pro Ag Puppy Milk replacer powder that doesn't say Esbilac. If you look on the walmart web site and search Esbilac, the only one eligible for next day delivery (which I need) just says "Pro Ag Puppy Milk Replacer but doesn't have "Esbilac" on the can. The numbers (33/40) seem to be the same.

Not sure if this link will work but I'll try:

https://www.walmart.com/search/?cat_id=0&query=esbilac

Thank-you all very much!

Kevin

[island rehabber]

Kevin, there are people here on TSB who are very astute about squirrel nutrition and the composition of these products. I'm not one of them. :grin2 All I can tell you is that both these products are made by Pet Ag, but they are NOT the same. Esbilac has a certain combination of probiotics and other nutrients that Pet Lac and the others do not have, and that means they are not good for wildlife. (They may be fine for puppies.)

Nearly every large pet supply store -- Petco, Petsmart, etc -- carries the right Esbilac in the can with the blue line around the top that says "with probiotics....blah blah". That's what you need. :great

[Thecityman]

Thank-you, Island Rehabber, for you fast and helpful response. I suspected there is a difference but part of me wonders if there is or if it is just an old label or something on the one that doesn't say Esbilac. After all, they are both the same brand, both the same nutritional numbers, both say "with probiotics and prebiotics, and show the same ingredients. I just am not sure if there is really a difference or if the one without the word Esbilac is just a different label, maybe an older photo?/ Anyway, as you said, maybe some of the experts here will chime in. Thanks again. BTW, I'm a long time lurker here and admire and appreciate the way you help so many people. Thanks

https://www.walmart.com/search/?cat_id=0&query=esbilac

[Spanky]

After all, they are both the same brand, both the same nutritional numbers, both say "with probiotics and prebiotics, and show the same ingredients. I just am not sure if there is really a difference or if the one without the word Esbilac is just a different label, maybe an older photo?

The PetLac and Esbilac formulas are significantly different and the ingredients vary virtually from the very first ingredient (keep in mind ingredients are listed in descending order as well from the ingredient that has the highest content to the lowest). While the "nutritional numbers" (fat and protein) are the same / similar, the sources used for fat and protein are very different. The Esbilac protein comes from whey, the PetLac uses soy. The Esbilac fat comes from cream, the PetLac skimmed milk.... in the words of IR... blah blah blah!

My wife is a pescatarian (does not eat meat but does eat fish) but there were a couple of times over the years since she stopped eating meat when she had a craving and ate meat 6 years or so since she changed her diet. On each occasion she became sick as hell. Her body is no longer capable of handling the meat proteins. This is the analogy I think of as to what happens to baby squirrels being fed formulas that get protein and fat from sources their vegetarian bodies simply cannot handle.

[Thecityman]

The PetLac and Esbilac formulas are significantly different and the ingredients vary virtually from the very first ingredient (keep in mind ingredients are listed in descending order as well from the ingredient that has the highest content to the lowest). While the "nutritional numbers" (fat and protein) are the same / similar, the sources used for fat and protein are very different. The Esbilac protein comes from whey, the PetLac uses soy. The Esbilac fat comes from cream, the PetLac skimmed milk.... in the words of IR... blah blah blah!

My wife is a pescatarian (does not eat meat but does eat fish) but there were a couple of times over the years since she stopped eating meat when she had a craving and ate meat 6 years or so since she changed her diet. On each occasion she became sick as hell. Her body is no longer capable of handling the meat proteins. This is the analogy I think of as to what happens to baby squirrels being fed formulas that get protein and fat from sources their vegetarian bodies simply cannot handle.


Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the difference to me - both biologically and with an example I could understand. I'll try to find the Esbilac ASAP. Thank you again for taking time to try and help me.
Kevin

[Ashleyw]

3 years ago, a discussion was started about pinkies not digesting Fox Valley 32/40 formula.
Seasoned rehabbers were losing babies, from undigested formula that sat in the babies tummies
like cement, with the milk line never disappearing.

I won't rehash the nightmares this caused.

Most people have since switched over to Powdered Puppy Esbilac for babies under 4 weeks
and some have continued with just the Esbilac until the squirrel is weaned.

This is just a reminder that Fox Valley 32/40 kills many/most pinkies, they cannot digest it.

We've been complacent about alerting members of this, thinking that most already knew.
I believe that after 3 years some felt the problem was rectified, (AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!!!)
because we don't bring it up.

However, in the past 3 years we have NOT recommended it to ANY new member, and this needs to be
mentioned again as a reminder.

This just happened again to a seasoned rehabber. She fed Fox Valley 32/40 and it sat like cement.
Three of the babies have died.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?54401-4-pinks-please-read

Discussion from 8/2013

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?41878-FOX-VALLEY-amp-PINKIES-Discussion-Thread&highlight=Fox+Valley

Is there an age where the 32/40 is ok for squirrels? A friend of mine feeds her young ones that are at least 4 weeks old this kind. Shes been buying it for about a year and a half.

[cassgrimm]

Is there an age where the 32/40 is ok for squirrels? A friend of mine feeds her young ones that are at least 4 weeks old this kind. Shes been buying it for about a year and a half.

I won't weigh in on the 32/40 issue. The fact of the matter is that I don't know. Many of us have stayed far away from it since the issues with it were confirmed. Many babies died and I don't know of anyone personally who uses it, nor do I know of anyone who wants to try it out again at the potential expense of a little one.

I recommend that you suggest FV 20/50 to your friend who has the 4 week+ babies. Regardless of whether or not 32/40 is safe to feed, it is lower in fat than the 20/50 and the older babies do much better with the higher fat content.

[CritterMom]

Is there an age where the 32/40 is ok for squirrels? A friend of mine feeds her young ones that are at least 4 weeks old this kind. Shes been buying it for about a year and a half.

Furthermore, the 32/40 is made and marketed for babies 0-4 weeks, at which time the switch to 20/50, which is for 4 weeks + is supposed to be made. The problem with 32/40 was that if used AS DIRECTED, for the wee babies, it sat in the gut and did not digest, then the babies bloated and died. I suppose is THEORETICALLY possible that once they are older, as your friend is using it, that their more mature digestive systems could handle it. However, as cassgrim pointed out, the 4+ week babies will do much better and get the nutrition they need at that age, from the 20/50, which is made specifically for them.

Unfortunately, the only way for us to check and see if the 32/40 has been changed is to try it and see if the babies still bloat and die, and needless to say, nobody here wants to do that!

[LakenCPht]

One note. I did save both of mine, when they plugged up and I would be happy to discuss how to save them when they do bloat.

Could you please tell me how to do this?

[cassgrimm]

Could you please tell me how to do this?

Info can be found here: https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?60554-HOW-TO-POSSIBLY-UNDO-THE-DAMAGE-OF-FOX-VALLEY-32-40

[Ging]

One note. I did save both of mine, when they plugged up and I would be happy to discuss how to save them when they do bloat.

My little guy may be plugged. Im new to this so i really dont know for sure but would love to hear what you did

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

My little guy may be plugged. Im new to this so i really dont know for sure but would love to hear what you did

Hi Ging:
Thanks for finding The Squirrel Board and thanks for caring for this Squirrel! How old is your Squirrel? Have you been feeding the 32/40 formula? Are you feeding any other "stuff" such as a different formula, plain water, Pedialyte or whatever? Please describe in detail what seems to be going on with your Squirrel! Maybe this should have been my first question but here it is now; do you have experience raising Baby Squirrels? Just in case the answer is "no" or "not much," I have pasted the link to Henry's Guide to the care of Baby Squirrels. It consists of 6 well written and concise pages of information about Baby Squirrel Care. The only real issue with this Guide is the recommendation for using Fox Valley 32/40 for Pinkies. This should be removed as many have found serious problems with feeding FV 32/40 to pinkies! The formula literally hardens in the stomach and the babies die painfully from obstruction, dehydration and starvation! The bottom line is that Fox Valley 32/40 should NEVER be be used to feed pinkies or young babies! NEVER! There are other options! Here is the Link to Henry's Guide to Baby Squirrel Care which except for this one issue, is excellent reading! Remember, ignore the recommendation for using FV 32/40! https://www.henryspets.com/1-baby-squirrel-care-guide/

Please read this link for Duckman's treatment; https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?60554-HOW-TO-POSSIBLY-UNDO-THE-DAMAGE-OF-FOX-VALLEY-32-40

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Spanky]

My little guy may be plugged. Im new to this so i really dont know for sure but would love to hear what you did

If this is a pinkie on Fox Valley 32/40, here is the "Duckman" protocol:


The trick for me seemed to be getting in as much water, as quickly as possible, once you see and feel the hardness in the belly. Not sugar water or Pedilyte, but plain water. I did this every hour (giving about .2-.3 ml) and ensure you stimulate after each, for 2 reasons. 1. You have to get that water out of the bladder, and it will burst if you don't. 2. You want that water to start working on the crud in the belly. After 8-10 hours, you should start seeing some movement out of the bowel (they will continue to poop, but you will start to see it more watery, which is what you want). At that time, start introducing diluted formula at the ratio of 25% Esbilac, 75% water. Feed this for the first half day. The second half day, I bumped up the ration to 50/50. I fed this for a day and then went to 75% Esbilac, 25% water and introduced full food the next day (and the blockage was gone!). So far, I am at 100% success rate. One note though. I check my pinkies after every feeding, so see if their bellies are hard or squishy. I would suggest everyone get in the habit of checking them after every feeding as habit and you can't go wrong in catching them before they bloat up. Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not).