very concerned about Serenity

[pappy1264]

She is Peace's brother. I got her in 24 hours after him, which meant she went 24 hours longer out in the cold without mom. She is very weak. I pushed homemade pedialyte all day and into the night. Last feeding I gave her diluted formula. I started her on SMZ after she had begun peeing. She is not clicking, but since she was so weak. I was hoping to see at least a little improvement today, but she is still so weak. I know slow and steady, but is there anything else I can do to help her? I did late last night put her in with the others, in hopes that would help, but found her by herself, off the heat (but she had been doing that in the smaller container by herself, I actually think she was too warm in there. They are in a cage not the critter keeper, I am wondering if I should put her back as it is warmer in there?) I am still struggling over the loss of Bean and my mind is just not working, so reaching out for help. What do you all think? Should I put her back in the critter keeper alone? Anything else I can give her to try to help her? I have not sub-q'd because although extremely slow, she is taking fluids by mouth.

[island rehabber]

pappy I would leave her in with her sibs and, since you are there watching, gently move her back towards the heat when she crawls off. Always offer a little hydration between feedings with those who are weak; it does wonders. She may need the calories now so if she is hydrated give her strong enough formula to make a difference. I know when they crawl off the heat it's scary, but Owena did this consistently (planted herself in a corner of the critter keeper, as a pinky, as far from the heat as she could) and here she is 2 yrs later. :) Don't forget to pick Serenity up, wrap her in that beautiful hair of yours, and hold her next to your heart. She needs to know a mamma is there for her.

[pappy1264]

I just fed her again (it is 3 to 1 formula). I ended up putting her back in the critter keeper. I think being some compromised, she is hurting, so I think she is moving because they are climbing on her. I will give her some time and later today, try again. I got her to take 7 cc's. She is only 94 grams (10 less then her brother, who is doing really well, btw.) I am wondering if a tiny bit of infant ibuprofen would even be in order. She seems to be hurting to me, just achy sort of, not from injury. Would that be good, or is she taxed enough and she doesn't need more for her body to digest? Ugh. My brain. I am trying to hard to hold myself together. I keep going out and calling Bean, wanting so badly to just have her back. I know she is gone but I can't help it. This is killing me. But I have to fight for these babies, so appreciate the help, since I cannot seem to think for myself right now.

[island rehabber]

I just fed her again (it is 3 to 1 formula). I ended up putting her back in the critter keeper. I think being some compromised, she is hurting, so I think she is moving because they are climbing on her. I will give her some time and later today, try again. I got her to take 7 cc's. She is only 94 grams (10 less then her brother, who is doing really well, btw.) I am wondering if a tiny bit of infant ibuprofen would even be in order. She seems to be hurting to me, just achy sort of, not from injury. Would that be good, or is she taxed enough and she doesn't need more for her body to digest? Ugh. My brain. I am trying to hard to hold myself together. I keep going out and calling Bean, wanting so badly to just have her back. I know she is gone but I can't help it. This is killing me. But I have to fight for these babies, so appreciate the help, since I cannot seem to think for myself right now.

7cc is great for her :thumbsup. Rest and nourishment is what that tiny body needs right now, and love. I wouldn't give anything else, personally, because these babies are so small and medicine is, well, chemicals. (That's just me; I hardly take any myself. :grin2) Don't forget to love her. :great

[CritterMom]

I am a little concerned about the SMZ.

There is a tendency to think that SMZ-TMP, because it is rather slow acting, is also very easy on them as far as side effects are concerned. It may seem intuitive but it isn't true. It is because of the type of drugs mixed up.

The "SMZ" part is a sulfa drug very similar to Albon. It is "bacteriostatic" which means it does NOT kill bacteria, it simply stops the replication and relies on the body's immune system to actually kill the bacteria already present. The "TMP" (trimethiprin) is a "bactericidal" drug which kills the bacteria. So SMZ-TMP is made of two drugs, only one of which is actually killing the bacteria. It has lots of benefits - it is an older drug that has fallen aside a bit in usage which means it hasn't been misused as much as newer drugs have, and so has effectiveness in many places where the newer drugs are now failing. But SMZ-TMP is really hard on the kidneys and I don't much like it being used in little ones that already have issues in this area due to dehydration.

If you are suspecting pneumonia, either due to them being so debilitated at intake or because they were possibly aspirated by a finder, I would go with cipro rather than the SMZ. It's effectiveness is waning on a lot of things due to misuse, but it works well on pneumonia and it really is well tolerated. I cannot remember a case of stomach issues with any squirrels on Cipro, and it has the benefit of being extremely fast acting. The same holds true with UTI's. I would try Cipro first - it will clear it in a few days if it is effective n the bacteria in question. If that time has gone by without seeing improvement, then I would go to the SMZ.

[pappy1264]

No, I do not believe she has pneumonia (she has not aspirated, and I am the first to feed her.) I generally use it when babies come it, as it can help with the tummy issues of starting on formula, plus the stress of being an 'orphan'. I usually give it just for a few days and have to many of the babies over the years, depending on the condition at intake. I agree, food, rest, warmth and love. Poor little girl went without for some time, it seems. She is fighting, that much I can say.

I want to add, she is peeing very well, nice and clear, and was before I started the smz. I did not start that until late last night.)

[pappy1264]

Taken when she came in yesterday.256920256921

[Monipenny]

Do you think this baby could benefit from a little molasses? Come home Bean, your momma is worried sick.:grouphug

[TubeDriver]

I think you are doing exactly what you need to do.:thumbsup

Hydration, hydration, hydration.

Slow and steady. Hydrate whenever possibly, even small amounts are good.

Keep her warm and try to reintroduce her to others but be watchful and remove her if she appears distressed.

If you are reasonably sure that she does not have pneumonia or any other infection, I wonder if you can stop the ABs altogether? If she developes pneumonia, you could switch to Cipro which has a stellar track record for quickly resolving this infection.

Slow and steady, you are doing everything you can, now it is up to her and fate.

[Chickenlegs]

Put that sweetheart in a pouch, tuck her in right next to your heart and wear her for the next few days. Sometimes I think a heartbeat and the gentle heat of a living body does more for a fragile little life than anything else.

[pappy1264]

I am likely going to be 'wearing her' later. I have to run out to get food to feed the overwinters! lol And stuff to make glider food. Ugh. I only gave her one dose. I am pushing hydration. I know she is fighting, bless her little heart. Thanks guys. I am finding this harder to do with a shattered heart.

[pappy1264]

Ok, need to find some Cipro, she has a faint click on exhale. She has not aspirated, but being alone so long. Can I get it from my own doctor? I put in a call to Jodi, to see if she had any. I don't have any. I have baytril but she also has liquid diarrhea now too. I actually just asked the nurse from my drs. office, as she just called me about a call I had put in this morning about something else. She is going to ask my dr. if he will give me cipro. Should I get the liquid or pills, if he is willing to. I have only used cipro on my gliders, and it was liquid. HELP!

[pappy1264]

I started Baytril. I cannot find any cipro and I don't want to let her wait.

[island rehabber]

My take on this, Mary? Baytril cures pneumonia and doesn't cause diarrhea. SMZ causes diarrhea and doesn't really cure pneumonia anymore. :)

[TubeDriver]

Baytril and Cipro are very similar, in fact about 30% of the Baytril will be metabolized into Cipro! They are both broad spectrum ABs and will work well with pneumonia.

People can't take Baytril because it can cause hallucinations and seizures.


The only real dangers of using Cirpo and Baytril is that they do accumulate in joint area and can cause cartilage damage in young, growing bodies. They are also overused and resistance is a growing issue.

But Baytril should deal with the pneumonia just fine!



I started Baytril. I cannot find any cipro and I don't want to let her wait.

[CritterMom]

I started Baytril. I cannot find any cipro and I don't want to let her wait.

Mary, they are almost the same drug and you are actually better off with the Baytril. We use Cipro because it is a human drug and simply more available to the masses than Baytril, which is strictly a veterinary drug. Baytril = :thumbsup

[island rehabber]

Just a reminder about the 'myth' of Baytril harming young skeletal development:

The study that resulted in every vet in the country swearing off Baytril for "baby animals" was done by a Great Dane breeder's club, I believe, because GD puppies in kennel settings were constantly getting bordatella (kennel cough) and other URI's. OK so they gave these puppies Baytril for long courses of THIRTY DAYS, sometimes longer. And they are GREAT DANES. What happened is the breeders found that the long bones did not develop as they should in these puppies, and everyone swore off Baytril for babies.

My vet is a bit more enlightened, and assured me that a tiny dose, for 3-4 days, to a tiny animal is not going to affect anything except the pneumonia it will cure. :thumbsup

[stepnstone]

I started Baytril. I cannot find any cipro and I don't want to let her wait.

Little confused here....
Baytril and Cipro are the same drug. One made for humans (cipro), the other for animals (Baytril.)

Mary I had recently treated a little for pneumonia (w/ clicking) that I had just taken in. It was pneumonia from being in the elements too young to regulate its own body heat, had nothing to do with aspiration.

[TubeDriver]

Thanks for bringing that up! :thumbsup Even with the potential risk of some joint issues, pneumonia will kill a baby squirrel in 1-2 days so any joint issues are is the lesser of two evils.

All drugs have side effects, we just have to balance the benefit against the risk. I can't even begin to count how many baby squirrels with pneumonia have been saved by Cipro/Baytril, it works and it works FAST!

I just wanted to point out possible issues but I am glad to learn that it is more of a problem with much longer term use. Thanks.:)


Just a reminder about the 'myth' of Baytril harming young skeletal development:

The study that resulted in every vet in the country swearing off Baytril for "baby animals" was done by a Great Dane breeder's club, I believe, because GD puppies in kennel settings were constantly getting bordatella (kennel cough) and other URI's. OK so they gave these puppies Baytril for long courses of THIRTY DAYS, sometimes longer. And they are GREAT DANES. What happened is the breeders found that the long bones did not develop as they should in these puppies, and everyone swore off Baytril for babies.

My vet is a bit more enlightened, and assured me that a tiny dose, for 3-4 days, to a tiny animal is not going to affect anything except the pneumonia it will cure. :thumbsup

[pappy1264]

Ok, gotcha. PRAY HARD. I can't loose her. I am in a bad way over Bean and doing the best I can. To say I am 'fragile' right now is an understatement. Will post more in a bit, have to feed everyone!

[pappy1264]

So far, she is holding her own. She took 5 cc's full strength last feeding (she will not take the diluted at all!) So doing formula, and fluids in between. This is when I went to get her for her last feeding. I uncovered her and this is what I found...lol256991

[stepnstone]

Looks as if she's at least feeling a bit better... :grouphug

[pappy1264]

Woke up to her walking around in her carrier!!! She is not 100% by far, but she is 100% better over what she has been! Still has diarrhea but it seems to be firming up more then it was. No clicking today, either!! Still on baytril, of course, but so happy to not hear that clicking!! Tried putting her in with everyone, but she would not settle, so maybe this afternoon. I was a little nervous with her climbing up the cage, as she is still weak.

[island rehabber]

:danceyay, Serenity! :serene

[pappy1264]

This afternoon, for the very first time, she willingly took 6 cc's of full strength formula (and wanted more! lol) We are getting there!:Love_Icon

[Monipenny]

:dance:dance So happy to hear this great turn around.

[Bravo]

Great to read, P. :w00t

[lennysmom]

:dance:thumbsup So happy to read little Serenity is improving. :)

[sdreamcatcher]

Didn't see an update on fb so checked in here and very happy to hear Serenity is feeling better, keep up the fight little princess :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[pappy1264]

Well, she was doing good, had normal poops, eating like a champ. Finished her meds. Then last two feedings last night, she was really fighting me on eating, and barely ate anything the last feeding. This morning, I found out why. THE DREADED C! She has sticky, yucky, stinky diarrhea. Oh, it is a smell you NEVER forget. Going shortly to get baycox, all will be treated, since they have been together. I want to get ahead of this, been down this road before, it is one I never wanted to go down again! Keep prayers. She was doing so good, but her little body has been through so much, so this could get bad quickly. Praying this knocks it out of her quick and the others will be ok!

[TubeDriver]

:( Stay strong little Serenity, your mom is getting medicine to make you better! :grouphug



Well, she was doing good, had normal poops, eating like a champ. Finished her meds. Then last two feedings last night, she was really fighting me on eating, and barely ate anything the last feeding. This morning, I found out why. THE DREADED C! She has sticky, yucky, stinky diarrhea. Oh, it is a smell you NEVER forget. Going shortly to get baycox, all will be treated, since they have been together. I want to get ahead of this, been down this road before, it is one I never wanted to go down again! Keep prayers. She was doing so good, but her little body has been through so much, so this could get bad quickly. Praying this knocks it out of her quick and the others will be ok!

[CritterMom]

Poor baby. Don't forget, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.

[island rehabber]

So glad you have Baycox, Mary. Her system was so compromised, that's why the stupid cox reared its ugly head.

[pappy1264]

Thanks guys. I know, was praying it wouldn't but knew the risk was very high. Hopefully it will get ahead of it and knock it out quickly. I remember when my four craziaks almost died from it. The four of them were so sick and I did not have baycox. Weeks of albon, smz, flagyl, and SO MUCH LAUNDRY! lol And sub-qing, as they would not eat, they got so bad. It was a nightmare. Makes me shiver just thinking of it, do NOT want to go down that road again!!!

[pappy1264]

Well, she is crashing and I don't know why. She stopped eating. I am trying to push fluids, she is not taking them either. I mean, she is fighting it tooth and nail. I just gave her some gas drops, as again, she seems to be in pain in her tummy. She is not clicking, I am terrified, all that time alone and being so cold, it has effected her organs. I am not giving up, but please pray guys, I am very worried. I am going to have to sub-q her today, as I cannot get barely a cc into her, and even most of that comes back out. She had normal poops last night, but then at the end it got watery. But even then she still did not want to eat. I just don't know what to think.

[island rehabber]

just my random thoughts:

yes, sub-Q ASAP --
get the formula even warmer than usual
try honey water if all else is rejected
I'll be praying :grouphug

[pappy1264]

Thanks, yes, I made it warmer then usual. She was taking sugar water yesterday afternoon, but then after that, she fought everything. And when I say fight, I have never had one this bad. I am terrified in her fighting she will aspirate. Its awful.

[pappy1264]

After getting gas drops into her, and giving her some time, I was just able to get her to take 7 cc's of sugar water. She has lost 3 grams, which for her tiny size is alot. Will try more fluids and hopefully by the next feeding for all of them I can get her to take formula. It seems she is getting gassy, so will keep the gas drops in the lineup for a bit. I am wondering if her intestines are inflammed? She pooped this morning, and it was the very loose, sort of slimy stuff, but it does not smell anymore. I just put a call into Jodi to see if she has flagyl, as I do not have that. Poor little bub, she has been through so much.:sadness

[Nancy in New York]

:Love_Icon Serenity :Love_Icon
Keep fighting little one!

[pappy1264]

Thank you. Beginning to think I may need to change her formula, at least for a bit. I think she is having trouble with it. I am feeding 50/50 fv/esbilac. I don't want to cause more issues, my brain is just on overload. Ugh. Reminding me so much of Bean and all her tummy issues. Jodi has flagyl, so hoping that will calm things down.

[pappy1264]

Ok, after a rough day yesterday, she seems to be back on track! Three formula feedings she has willingly taken and although poops are a bit loose still, at least she wants to eat! I ended up giving her some fluids with tums, because it really just seemed like her stomach was just extremely icky feeling and gassy. Ever since I did that, she has wanted to eat, is doing so much better, is even playing! She is eating block, cheerios and oxbow rat food and is very active today! Praying we stay this way! :dance

[lennysmom]

Yay! :dance Wonderful update Mary! :) Defiantly an answer to prayer.:thumbsup

[pappy1264]

Thank you. Been a very emotional rollar coaster with her. Praying we have finally got it all worked out, time for going from the coaster to the merry go round....lol

[TubeDriver]

:w00t



Ok, after a rough day yesterday, she seems to be back on track! Three formula feedings she has willingly taken and although poops are a bit loose still, at least she wants to eat! I ended up giving her some fluids with tums, because it really just seemed like her stomach was just extremely icky feeling and gassy. Ever since I did that, she has wanted to eat, is doing so much better, is even playing! She is eating block, cheerios and oxbow rat food and is very active today! Praying we stay this way! :dance

[island rehabber]

:dance:serene

[sdreamcatcher]

I signed on just to see how Serenity is doing, this is wonderful news!!

[Chickenlegs]

Sooooooooo glad your darling is better. An upset tummy ruins everything. Keep feeling better baby! :Love_Icon