Question on Calcium

[babybleu]

While at the vet today with Chumpy Mumps, my vet and I discussed MBD protocol and he asked me to inquire whether squirrels need vitamin D along with calcium for absorbtion?? I told him I'd check it out and can't find anything to that effect. Can you please advise???

[farrelli]

Yes, it is absolutely necessary, and on consultation with, I think, two vets, they said that because D is even more rare in a bad diet than calcium, a MBD sq would probably be at least as lacking in D as calcium. So, it is necessary to supplement it. HOWEVER, rodents are very sensitive to D and it is actually used to kill rodents by exterminators. Moreover, D is fat soluble so it builds up in the system. As such, many people are very reluctant to recommend it. For a long time advocating its use would make you very, very unpopular here, but now it's being grudgingly accepted. BUT, the few of us who do recommend it when a MBD sq comes in have to be extremely clear that it is to only be one dose, and that subsequent to it, the D requirements of the sq should be met with rodent blocks. I usually tell people to take a small scraping from a human D3 pill. All the research that I've done on it suggests that an average adult sq could easily survive the ingestion of the most common 1000 IU human pill, and this has been borne out by a couple accidental ingestions of such, but it is still good to play it safe because, like I said, it gets stored in the system, and if there is an OD, or repeated ingestion, there is nothing that can be done but wait to see if it survives. There is no flushing it out with hydration and no counter agent.

[Annabelle's papa]

:thumbsup Good Morning farrelli, Along with the dedicated use of HHB's, would some fresh sliced mushroom a few time's a week still be OK, or too much? Thanks.

[farrelli]

Btw, I'm still hoping to see it included in the official protocol. I think I've been fighting this battle for almost my entire time on TSB. (I did a fair amount of research on it from the documentation I could find from extermination companies on what they found to be levels which would even begin to be toxic to those which would kill.) I think it is my signature issue, and it made me very unpopular at first, with many people calling for my ban. So far, at least two vets have thought that it should be included (the only two consulted on the matter), and perhaps your vet is another (would love to hear it if so). I think we could save many, many more sqs this way, especially with those people who read the protocol and never ask for direct help (which I think is most people). The problem is that many people are idiots, and of the people who aren't, some of those will be frazzled and not read clearly that the D should be introduced once and at a low dose. I think that this could be properly stressed using fonts, color, and formatting, and I think that someday, perhaps in the distant future when we're all riding around in jet packs, this will be put into the official protocol, but for right now it's up to individual members to explain the situation. Still, it's a lot better than just a couple years ago were I was nominated for crucifixion at the mere mention.

[farrelli]

:thumbsup Good Morning farrelli, Along with the dedicated use of HHB's, would some fresh sliced mushroom a few time's a week still be OK, or too much? Thanks.

Defiantly not too much. That would be a very nice addition to any diet.

[Annabelle's papa]

Amen, Thanks for the reply. Annabelle get's a slice or two twice a week, Because we only buy them "fresh" about twice a week. I worry so much about them being safe/fresh when we do get them, that any left over after 24 hours go into the trash. BTW I'm not understanding the subject too well, in the past have folk's been Pro. or Con. D supplementation.

[farrelli]

If I understand your question correctly, people here have been very, very, very , very much con D supplementation in MBD sqs. Toxicity was a known issue, and rightly so, but there was no research into the science of it. I took A LOT of biology courses in college (it always made sense to me and was always an easy A) and knew that the chemistry of mammals really needed D to make use of the calcium (there's this whole thing about active and passive absorption, but it's actually kind of academic and not worth the mention), so as one of my early posts on TSB after reading and reading for a few months, I asked why it wasn't in the protocol and suggested that it should be. OMG, I got called every name in the book. Somehow I survived and neither got banned nor left, but I've been advocating it all this time. Very basic science says that it's necessary (as per babybleu's vet's question, I'm sure) so I was actually pretty upset that it wasn't included due to what I saw as superstition or dogmatism. A few folks have come out of the closet since then, and I think more people will as time goes by. I'd love to hear what her vet says, pro or con. My whole thing at this point is that the protocol is open to search engines, so countless people see it, never join, and aren't made aware that if their sq is lacking in D (which is almost a certainty) the effectiveness of the Tums will be little to nothing. It would just be a gamble as to whether or not the individual sq had enough D on board to make use of it.

[farrelli]

Btw, since my early posts, I did a fair amount of research into toxicity, as mentioned, and it's nowhere near as easy to OD as many people thought. You do have to be very careful, but it's also not exactly cyanide.

[Annabelle's papa]

Thanks, that is where I thought you were coming from. And like you, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't find the importance of D for calcium absorption. Especially with all of the discussion on the use of U/V lights and such. And I only have a few years over you,(1963), but my Doctor and many other's have been recommending the use of D-3 supplement's in patients for over 10 years. However, I do understand the toxicity you've stated with the overuse in squirrels, and became "panicked" when a new member told me through a PM that their Vet. was going to give a "shot" of D to the squirrel they have. It turned out to be a misunderstanding on my part, but at the time it sounded like inadvertent euthanasia. The Board has been giving the owner very good advice all week, including yourself, and I know it has helped them to get a better grasp on what they should be doing.

[Annabelle's papa]

:facepalm Oh, and to be more clear on the age thing, I meant my Doctor has had me on the D-3 supp., for the past 10 years. Meaning, I wasn't sure if you have been given the same directive or not from your Physician, the AMA has suggested the use because of most peoples limited time out doors, and or failure to get enough in their diet.

[farrelli]

Mammals need D to metabolize calcium, but primates and rodents are different in different ways, so there's not a 1-1 correlation. Obviously there's a lot of research around humans, but not rodents. More research is done on how to kill rodents than help them. I've looked into the science a bit, and though studies have been done on the range of D that's needed to make them sick or kill them, none has been done (to my knowledge) about what range is best for them.

[Annabelle's papa]

Absolutely, this is why several different times I have posted that more scientifically conducive work toward's the benefit of Squirrels, and other rodents, is being done (in real time) on TSB, than any Major University. I find it groundbreaking, and appreciate the opportunity to have a front row seat, as it were. Bat's for example have been studied extensively because of their importance to insect control, among other things, yet the white powdered nose fungus epidemic has blindsided researchers. And I, as yourself have noticed many different benefits that squirrels provide other than their aesthetic property in nature. Nut burying alone promotes soil aeration, as done when a landscaper uses a weighted roller with spikes to open overly thatched or compacted substrate. And Squirrels drop just as many nuts or seeds the way birds do, promoting the growth of new vegetation.

[farrelli]

Absolutely, this is why several different times I have posted that more scientifically conducive work toward's the benefit of Squirrels, and other rodents, is being done (in real time) on TSB, than any Major University. I find it groundbreaking, and appreciate the opportunity to have a front row seat, as it were. Bat's for example have been studied extensively because of their importance to insect control, among other things, yet the white powdered nose fungus epidemic has blindsided researchers. And I, as yourself have noticed many different benefits that squirrels provide other than their aesthetic property in nature. Nut burying alone promotes soil aeration, as done when a landscaper uses a weighted roller with spikes to open overly thatched or compacted substrate. And Squirrels drop just as many nuts or seeds the way birds do, promoting the growth of new vegetation.

"Science" would imply strict methodology, statistical records, and mathematical calculation of such, which, to my knowledge, we don't do. We seem to be more about anecdotal experience and implementation. It's not a knock on the good work we do, certainly not, and we do excellent work, but you shouldn't claim to be a diamond miner unless you actually mine diamonds.

[island rehabber]

"Science" would imply strict methodology, statistical records, and mathematical calculation of such, which, to my knowledge, we don't do. We seem to be more about anecdotal experience and implementation.

This is quite true. A very loose analogy would be that we at TSB are the EMT's, the first responders, not the physicians or the research scientists of the squirrel world.

At one time, Leigh of henryspets.com and I were going to look into publishing 'best practices' and other types of papers, using the strict methodology and mathematical backup that farrelli mentions above. It became apparent, however, once we spoke with members whose profession is scientific research, that even if we amateurs followed the letter of the law and published clean, scientifically solid work, it would never be accepted by the academic community because of who we are (and are not). You don't want the EMT's publishing papers on brain surgery; you just want them to keep holding people's heads together until they get to the hospital. Or, in our case, the trees. :tilt