No more milk???

[lazarus_04]

We have a problem.:) Kieran+Keegan and me are in a batte of wills you see. They've both renounced the esbilac puppy milk I give them 4 times a day. When I offer some to them, they wave their little paws in the air and glare at me! :D They'd much rather eat the puppy chow and fruits and veggies I give them. (*sigh* And like the children they are, they tend to eat all the sweet fruits and leave the veggies there. :shakehead :D But I digress. ) I give them a small plate of 1 fruit + 1 veggie with each meal, and only after I offer them the milk. And I only give them a nut or two at supertime for dessert. Maybe I should stop doing that? Hmmm.:thinking Anyway, I know that at 7-8 weeks old, they should be on milk for a while longer, right?. Maybe I could sweeten it a bit with honey?...:dono

[pamela lee]

Please do not put honey in it . From what I understand (which sometimes is not much) honey is not good for any type of babies. I think it has some kind of bacteria in it.

[Buddy'sMom]

Yes, as GammasBaby suggested, a little yogurt might help -- vanilla is usually a hit, but you could experiment to see if they prefer other flavors.

Some people add a little bit of whipping cream to the formula (some do not) -- that also might make it more palatable.

Also, if they just want solid food, you could try soaking a piece of wheat bread or some rodent block with formula. Many of the "I want to be weaned" older babies seem to like that (tho Buddy didn't).

If all of THAT fails -- I know this next idea is not usually recommended by the rehabbers :hidechair , but it worked for us and since they are otherwise refusing formula, it couldn't hurt. Try adding a little squirt of flavored Pedialyte fluid to the formula -- just a little for a taste.

It's not the end of the world if they simply refuse, but if they take formula you know they are getting good nutrition while they learn about the other stuff. If they simply won't, sprinkle some Prime powder on something they like so they get calcium and vitamins (it's sold in the bird section of pet stores).

[Secret Squirrel]

The dog food has me scratching my head :thinking . Where did you get the dog food idea from ???? Are your squirrels red squirrels. If they are then Reds require more protien. Meal worms are a good source of protien for reds.
But Grays don't need the protien found in dog food. Dog food for squirrels is not recommended by any rehaber or wildlife vet I know...or any of the books I have either.

You can soak the rodent or monkey biscuits in the esbilac. Or grind the rodent block up using a coffee bean grinder. Mix the esbilac with the ground up rodent block and make a thick paste. You can thin it down by adding more esbilac.
Don't worry if your squirrels don't want the rodent block or monkey biscuits over the dog food....take the dog food away. Your squirrels will need to be retrained....when thier bellies get hungery they will either take the formula (they still need the formula at 8 weeks for proper bone growth and develpoment...til 11 weeks or older)
Or they will eat the rodent block and monkey biscuits in place of the dog food.
Good luck and chuck the dog food.:flash3

[Critter_Queen]

The dog food has me scratching my head :thinking . Where did you get the dog food idea from ???? Are your squirrels red squirrels. If they are then Reds require more protien. Meal worms are a good source of protien for reds.
But Grays don't need the protien found in dog food. Dog food for squirrels is not recommended by any rehaber or wildlife vet I know...or any of the books I have either.

You can soak the rodent or monkey biscuits in the esbilac. Or grind the rodent block up using a coffee bean grinder. Mix the esbilac with the ground up rodent block and make a thick paste. You can thin it down by adding more esbilac.
Don't worry if your squirrels don't want the rodent block or monkey biscuits over the dog food....take the dog food away. Your squirrels will need to be retrained....when thier bellies get hungery they will either take the formula (they still need the formula at 8 weeks for proper bone growth and develpoment...til 11 weeks or older)
Or they will eat the rodent block and monkey biscuits in place of the dog food.
Good luck and chuck the dog food.:flash3

I've used puppy food on squirrels before that refuse other foods. I was advised to by my mentor on the first squirrels we got in because they were being fed the wrong diet and would refuse almost all fresh foods.

I would recommend rodent block as a great alternative, though...I would reserve the puppy food for special cases. :thumbsup

[lazarus_04]

Yes yes, it was Purina Puppy Chow. Somebody mentioned it with the rodent block and monkey biscuits...somewhere in one of my posts. Is it not good for them?! (They've only been eating it in quantity over the last 2 days since they started refusing milk, thank god) I have to make a trip to get more esbilac...I'll see if they have any of that extrusion food we were given a sample of or monkey biscuits. It's just that the rodent block and monkey biscuits aren't easy to find around here. And I hate buying stuff from the internet. (I once had a dream that I'd bought something through amazon, and the next day, the money I'd saved up had disappeared! :sanp3 :rotfl )That's why when someone mentioned the puppy food, I went, yeah, I can get that. But if it's not good for them, then I'll hunt down some food if its the last thing I do! Just like that god forsaken Nintendo Wii! :rotfl

And tomorrow, I'll try putting a little bit of yogurt in their formula. And if that doesn't work, I'll try some apple flavoured pedialyte...And if THAT doesn't work, then I'll use some of that Prime powder Buddy'sMom mentioned and sprinkle it over their vegetables...better make that fruits, they eat more of those. :rotfl I already have some for my budgie coco, so they can share.

:thumbsup :thankyou

[Gabe]

It's also possible that you are feeding them too much, too often. If they have their eyes open and are active try two feedings a day of 10 cc's.

[lazarus_04]

Hmmm. I tried giving them a bit of apple flavoured pedialyte, and its the same thing, even though they used to love the pedialyte. I wonder if they just don't like the syringe anymore...:dono maybe they'd drink the esbilac out of a small hamster bowl? :thinking

I don't know if I'm feeding them too much Gabe. They seem to get up often enough to eat their veggies&fruits and their puppy chow (which I am changing, don't worry). But I'll try feeding them twice a day instead of four, and we'll see how they do. :)

:thumbsup

[Secret Squirrel]

Try a saucer with the formula just coating the bottom. My kids would always stick their nose too far into the formula, sputter & snort and not want to try it again. A nice shallow dish will get them used to lapping the formula with their tongue. I personally would not use dog or puppy food. Rodent block and monkey biscuits along with veggies are all you need.

[acorniv]

My girl hated esbilac - this is how I got her to take it:

I mixed it as usual, added a little heavy cream ( the extra fat makes it closer to squirrlie milk), and then I added a little blackberry juice for flavor. By juice, I mean squeezed straight from the fruit, which I got in the freezer section of the grocery store. Don't buy juice with anything added. When she tired of the blackberry juice, I switched to adding in sweet potato baby food. Sweet potatos are one of her favorite foods, so it seemed a good choice and was. One of the little rectangular Gerber containers mixed in with 3 tablespoons of Espilac, 6 of water, and a little heavy cream is what I did.

Ultimately what she balked at was the syringe. She never liked it, and always searched for something more Mom like. She was 5-6 weeks old when I got her, like yours were, and that is old enough to be really accustomed to a particular feel. When I finally accepted that she was never going to adjust, I ordered o-ring syringes with the nice clear nipples from Chris's. Although she was weaned by the time they arrived ( not Chris's fault - they came quickly), I do use them to give her water. What a difference! I wish someone had MADE my buy them first thing! She has and uses a tube feeder, but it does not satisfy her thirst, and she doesn't pee much with it - she lacks the patience to really hang in there and get plenty to drink. I find it interesting that she would run away when she saw a syringe of esbilac but always runs to me for water wiht the new kind!

About honey - It has a reputation for being a health food, but in fact it is loaded with bacteria and can be deadly to anyone with a suppressed immune system. That includes even healthy infants, because babies are not born with fully developed immune systems. Our little orphans, by definition, all have immune systems that are more fragile than babies being nursed by their moms, since breast fed infants get some immunity from their mothers milk. So, it is prudent to be even mroe cautious with avoiding honey with them.

This is kind of an aside, and certainlky not aimed at you or anyone else in particular, just something tha thas crossed my mind a few times: I have read other references to sweetening foods for squirrels here, and wonder if it comes from the same old wive's tale that makes people give human babies sweets. Babies are not born with a sweet tooth - they get it from their parents and other adults who shove sweets at them and make out like they are doing them a favor. I don't think anyone does it intentionally, but we al remember seeing moms do it and it seems like a natural thing to do or something? Conditioning kids to crave sweets is creating some serious problems, with younger and younger kids developing diabetes and other problems. Squirrels too will have problems if they are conditioned to eating sweet foods and are then released to a world where sweets are far and few between.

What I have found makes Miss Hickory really excited are foods that smell earthy - ones that likely remind her of home. Mushrooms. She does a happy dance when she sees one, and searches her breakfast tray each morning for that prize first. In retrospect, what I should probably have put in her esbilac is mushroom soup. I'd never have thought of that because of my own conditioning - fruits and other sweet things are good, veggies are to be distrusted. Moral to the story is to listen to one's inner squirrel :tilt

[lazarus_04]

Sorry everybody! My god forsaken modem was down. Grrrr. Anyway, thanks to everybody who posted while I was missing in action, lol! I'd like to report that the apple flavoured pedialyte seems to be doing the trick all of a sudden, and now Keegan and Kieran are clamouring for their milk once again.:thumbsup (Re: I tried giving them a shallow bowl to drink out of like you said Secret Squirrel, but all they did was some pretty impressive face planting followed by lots of walking OVER the bowl, instigating what I like to call bathtime, in order to get all that milk off their belly fur! LMAO!) As for the food, the puppy/dog chow has been officially nixed! I had a lonnnng discussion with one of the guys at the superpet, and we both finally came to the conclusion that the extrusion food they sell for rodents is, if not as good as, than at least very close to the rodent block. But just in case I'm wrong:

Ingredients:
Ground corn, ground wheat, soybean meal, wheat middlings, yeast culture, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried beet pulp, lethicin, dried corn fermentation soluble product, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, calcium propionate (preservative), DL-methionine, choline chloride, dried Saccharomyces cerecisiae fermentation extract, rosematy extract, L-lysine, yucca schidigera extract, cobalt sulfate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, follic acid, niacin, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotyin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein 16.0% (min) - Crude Fat 4.0% (min) - Crude Fiber 4.5% (max) - Ash 5% (max) - Moisture 12% (max) - Calcium 0,70% (min) - Phosphorus 0.60% (min) - Salt 0.60% (min) - Vitamin A 17000 I.U./Kg (min) - Vitamin D3 2200 I.U./Kg (min) - Vitamin E 55 I.U./Kg (min)

Am I on the right track guys? :thinking

:thankyou

[Gabe]

Sounds like you are doing well with them. I would suggest sticking to the hand feeding. As you noticed, they do tend to bathe in their dishes, then that can lead to hair loss if not properly cleaned and I often see overeaters diarrhea when they have free standing formula.
Often busy, experienced rehabbers will allow them to lap, but it is a measured amount and left in the area just long enough for everyone to eat then quickly removed.

[Buddy'sMom]

Lazarus, I checked the ingredient list for you on 2 of the U.S. products -- KayTee Forti-Diet for Mouse & Rat and Mazuri Rodent Block. They are fairly similar as far as basic ingredients and vitamins included (though in a somewhat different order), but your Extrusion Product has less protein -- the rehabbers may want to weigh in if this is a significant difference:

Canadian Extrusion Product: Crude Protein 16.0% (min) - Crude Fat 4.0% (min) - Crude Fiber 4.5% (max)

KayTee Forti-Diet M&Rat: Crude Protein 21.0% (min) - Crude Fat 4.5.0% (min) - Crude Fiber 7% (max)

Mazuri Rodent Block: Crude Protein 23.0% (min) - Crude Fat 6.5.0% (min) - Crude Fiber 4% (max)

Glad you are back in contact -- and they are back to drinking formula!

[lazarus_04]

They are quite the little pigs Gabe ! :rotfl

Keegan

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/lazarus04/IMG_0248.jpg


Kieran

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/lazarus04/IMG_0251.jpg


I'm still a little stimied at how much smaller Kieran is compared to his brother...though he has grown quite a bit. :D


But its a good thing that the extrusion food is so similar to the rodent block because at the moment, I'm finding myself in need of about...10 other pairs of eyes just to keep an eye on the two of them while they're playing, which they do often, and for lonnnnng periods of time, lol! :D I don't think I'd have any time to take a half hour bike ride to the store, and then another half hour bike ride back. They'd be climbing the walls by the time I got back, and that's just...no. Better for them, and me, to burn off their energy before it acumulates! :rotfl

[Gabe]

Maybe parasites? I know that wild squirrels can carry up to five different types at one time.

[susanw]

Maybe it's the reflection off something, but Kieran is alot darker than his brother. Both are precious!:D