Baby mouse 38 hours no pooping 10 days old

[MouseieFriend]

Baby mouse was 24 or 48 hours old when it came to me. I just got through the 9th night with her. She hasn't pooped in about 38 hours and looks like a grape about to burst, with tiny little legs. She eats hungrily.

I use a fine paint brush to feed.


Diet:

(Click on the image to see the video this recipe comes from)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/e2bf8729-496c-4038-a3d9-eaee6eac816a.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPoBJiHdy8&list=PLIxj-hHVU0wJJq40wp6TOs2tEO05H98pp&index=3)

I switched to this diet when Kitten Milk Replacer was causing bloat. I transitioned to the home made formula by first giving Pedialyte, and gradually increasing the % of new formula. Daisy LOVES the new formula.


First bout of bloat happened around day 4. Huge belly, could see gas bubbles under the skin, no pooping at all for 12 hours. Usual gentle moist stimulation of genitals produced nothing. Long gentle massage and stimulations got her to poop in the past, but no longer.

I volunteer at a local zoo, and our animal welfare coordinator suggested that I put mineral oil on the butt. Tried, nothing happened. About an hour later, and lots of gentle massage, and 12 hours of zero poop when before she pooped almost every single feeding, I was desperate and used this dropper to suction the poop I could clearly see lodged in her butt:

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/2f633608-58df-4368-8c1f-ee81e33c94fe.png[/URL]

I tested the dropper press on my hand. It was very slight. I was almost unable to feel it.

It worked. Poop came out, and then every feeding she pooped a larger amount than normal until her belly was normal sized again.

Then the bloat returned.

I gave her my own probiotics, just a little in the formula. No idea if it helped.
I gave white Karo corn syrup mixed with warm water. This made her poop right away the first time I tried it.
I tried skipping feedings and feeding Pedialyte. It worked the first time I tried it.
Gave her baby gas drops. "Kid's Relief gas &Colic." No effect as far as I can tell.

I have been following advice from The Fun Mouse forum -- corn syrup, baby gas drops were their suggestions. Lots of gentle massage of the gut. Tried stimulating before and after feeding. Most success came before feeding. Stimulate, poop / pee, feed, massage, stimulate, no poop/pee, a few more minutes of massage, one hour nap, wakes up, pooping and peeing.

I didn't know about or think of wildlife rehabilitates as an option for advice, and now it seems obvious and I feel very frustrated. My vet referred me to an exotic pet vet, who referred me to a wildlife rehabilitator, who referred me to this forum until she can get back to me later today. Kim suggested I switch to "Esbilac Powdered Milk Replacer For Puppies And Dogs" and use tiny syringe with tiny silicone nipples for feeding (she will try to coordinate a source for me to get that).

I will gladly switch to the puppy formula. My urgent issue right now is to get all the backed up poop and gas OUT of this baby mouse. I believe she is blocked up, and adding more fluids, even the right ones, won't solve the pooping problem.

Her butt is tender and a little swollen, and she squeaks if I touch it. It looks a bit white, as if it soaked too much water.

I fed every hour, tiny amounts, which she ate ravenously. For the last 24 hours I have been feeding every 2 hours because of the bloat, sometimes only feeding Pedialyte. She is still very interested in food, but is getting full more quickly.


Is it possible to give an enema to a mouse this tiny?
How can I get the gas and poop out of her?

She has also aspirated some fluid. I can hear watery clicking when she is excited, and Monday night she had spasm with her head tilted back, mouth shut, and no breathing at all. These spasms happened about ten times total. In desperation, I gently sucked air through her mouth when it was wide open and frozen, and heard the sound of liquid and she began to breathe normally again. The breathing issue seems much better now. Maybe I made things worse, I don't know.

[farrelli]

First, the clicking. That's pneumonia and will need antibiotics. I assume you have them and know how to dose?

For the bloat, have you tried warm water soaking and massages?

[MouseieFriend]

I don't have antibiotics but can go get. Which kind tends to work best? My vet has little experience. I would like to come with a suggestion just in case.
I can go over there now.

I have tried massage in warm water but not very long because I am afraid of hurting her. I will try again now.
How long do I keep her in the bath? Should I add anything to the water?

Thank you.

[CritterMom]

Oh, I don't envy you - I have a 4 year old pet deer mouse I raised and the entire time I worked with him I felt like I had giant Mickey Mouse hands.

You can dip his rear half in warm water to the waist, and as long as you keep up the heat of the water, he can be in there for a while. The mamas are not particularly gentle about the whole "stimulation" thing, and they work the tummy pretty good. I liked using a slightly damp flat watercolor brush and you need to use some pressure. You are trying to simulate the normal bowel movement from outside and gentle little barely there strokes won't do it.

I would switch to the esbilac powdered puppy formula with probiotics. I am NOT a mouse person but I am bothered by some of the ingredients in the formula you have - mayo? We are having good luck with the baby squirrels and pooping on the esbilac.

You can always try giving a single drop of mineral oil orally - it IS a laxative - but I worry about something as small as a mouse. Try soaking to get the existing poop out and switching formulas.

BTW, is this little one's eyes open yet? You can offer solids as soon as they are - all of the mousies I have raised started eating solids immediately after their eyes opened.

[farrelli]

I would also think that some apple or prune juice might help. Sugar draws water into the gut, and both of these have sorbitol in them which is another natural laxative.

[CritterMom]

Sorry - antibiotics - if you can get your vet to dose some baytril for this little one - you will have to dilute the heck out of it for something the size of a mouse, but it is VERY effective against pneumonia if this is a problem.

[MouseieFriend]

Update

gave warm water bath
gave warm mineral oil bath

(both from the waist down)

Rubbed belly more firmly. She seemed to like it and did not squeak.

She pees fine.

She still squeaks weakly when I touch her butt.

switched to Esbilac Powdered Milk Replacer For Puppies And Dogs. She refused it.
Mixed in Karo corn syrup and she accepted three drinks. Now she is exhausted and recovering.

The skin on her butt and the folds of her thighs are peeling a little. I wonder if I didn't clean off the urine well enough, or maybe I stimulated too much and too often. The ring of her anus is puffy and pale, and the hole is so tiny I can barely see it at all.

I worry about getting oil in her urethra. Luckily she peed after all the baths, so hopefully it cleared the channel.

I spoke to Kim Cassidy (currently traveling). She called her vet / fellow rehabber and told me to go get some Laxatone. Baytril is really good but it is not safe for mice apparently. I am about to leave the house now to go get it. She said to stop with the corn syrup.

She aspirated/ choked on Monday night. Since then she occasionally gapes for a second, and I hear clicking only when she is looking to be fed. It sounds very slightly wet + normal bruxing.

I will try to get her to eat the laxatone when I get home.

Still no poop, still gas. Should I continue the baths?

**IT HAS BEEN 43 HOURS SINCE HER LAST POOP **

When I get back I will take a video of her and post a link so you can see her condition. She is really tired now and warming up.

Here are a few pics in the meantime:

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/38176cca-f0d4-4a16-b49e-7ee49ccc2052.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/dd71d749-0929-4f36-859f-5a6caf94d15f.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/ecfb2755-d643-44b5-9d16-9e16780c0a9c.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/7809de09-90b3-4fc0-abed-e666935f3043.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff436/readingposting/d06ee535-865f-4126-b9ba-2eebdd5c6d6e.jpg

[farrelli]

It hurts to look at her. Yes, continue the baths. Cant hurt.

[Turner's Mom]

Oh, poor little sweet thing. It is great that she has you. It sounds like you are doing everything you and the other folks here and in you outter world can think of. Keep up your diligence and you both have my prayers. She is quiet something to look at. :)

[MouseieFriend]

It has been very difficult. I wake up every 60-90 minutes to prepare / feed. She is always so eager and happy to eat. I have become very attached, and then she got so sick. I know the success rate for raising mice is pretty low, and I wish I could have gotten in touch on this forum sooner or found a rehabber. For some reason I didn't think mice could be accepted. The last two days have been just miserable. I am so tired and emotional, crying a lot, in a daze. Sleep deprivation is so hard. I am willing to do triple the time if it means she will be healthy at the end, but I am very low on hope now too and doing what I have to do to help her without believing it can work. This is my first animal (since the kitten I hand-raised when I was 9.. 3 days old .. that was a sleepless time too!).

I can just imagine that the gas in her belly must hurt her a lot. When I hold her sides she goes still and falls asleep, so I think that is soothing for her. I was going to have her euthanized yesterday and today but she is still eating and whenever I try to decide I get too upset. My boyfriend is against it because he believes she still has hope.

Anyway, thanks for any advice on getting her to poop, or making her more comfortable. Leaving now for Laxatone. Thank you for your support!

[CritterMom]

Is the laxatone a laxative of some kind (sure sounds like it)?

If not, you can give the mineral oil ORALLY - just a drop and then see what happens in the next half day poop wise. Mineral oil is a laxative (and it is in with the laxatives at the drug store).

Edit - so lazy sometimes - googled and I see it is a laxative - don't give both, just the laxatone.

[LeilaNami]

I don't know if it would work for neonates but both pineapple and papaya (especially green unripe papaya) contain proteolytic enzymes that might help her digest the formula better and cut down on gas if you add in some of the juice. Anyone know if that's possible for an animal this young?

[lovesmice]

The gaping mouth and clicking sound can both be symptoms of aspirating in which the formula could be getting into her nose/lungs and/or she could be drinking too quickly. The formula could also be too thick which in turn could cause her to choke. For example with the powdered KMR, twice the recommended amount of water should be mixed with it for use with mouse bubs.

Can I ask why you think the bloat was from the KMR? Bloat can simply be from not going potty. (An upset tummy in general can be from switching foods too often/too quickly.) Since many bubs try the patience of the human stimulating them to go potty, sometimes it requires a break if the bub does not go immediately. Continue as you have to stimulate her before she eats, and if this does not produce any results, try again after she eats. Besides using a moistened cloth to gently wipe the lower tummy/genital area, you can either dribble warm water or use a moistened q-tip to move in a circular motion over the lower tummy/genital area. Also, it is not clear in your post which formula is she on currently on. Raw eggs are not safe so I would definitely not use the Matilda's Formula, and puppy formula does not have the necessary nutrients to allow a mouse bub to thrive.

Regarding the peeling skin, bubs can easily suffer damage to their delicate skin from any formula that drips onto it. Pinkies especially because of not having fur can become sore when formula is not immediately wiped off of their bodies. You can soothe her irritated skin by gently rubbing Vitamin E oil cream on the affected area. As far as baths, since bubs without fur cannot hold their own body temperature, I would not submerge her in any water. It is far too easy for her to get a chill.

As for antibiotics, Baytril is commonly prescribed to treat respiratory infections in mice. Unfortunately like many medications, there is a minimum age requirement. I believe 3 months is the youngest that it can be safely used. Amoxicillin, though, can be safely used at any age and is effective to treat certain respiratory problems. The RMCA (Rat and Mouse Club of America) has a medication chart you may find helpful:

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

[MouseieFriend]

CritterMom,

Thank you. I gave her a tiny drop of mineral oil earlier today. I gave her the laxative tonight, in the last two feedings. She only took a tiny bit. I mixed the Laxatone with warm Pedialyte to dilute it (it is syrupy and too thick to swallow as is). I tasted it to know how if it is bad. It was pretty sweet, not bad at all.

She refused to eat two meals in a row, ate just one drop. Then at our last feeding I only gave her Pedialyte and she wanted it.

I believe she is not going to last long. She is gaunt, and her belly is even larger now. She never refused food before. She used to wake up like clockwork five minutes before my alarm clock, bruxing and very exited. Now she sleeps much longer.

lovesmice,
I tried not to let any formula get into her nose, but it did a few times. She was gaping / choking on Monday, two days ago. She probably still has something in her lungs.

I diluted the formula x3 instead of 2 because I gathered it was too thick.

I compared the protein and fat content of KMR to real mouse milk, and found that there is too much protein.

Kitten formula

protein 33%
fat 18%
lactose (sugar) - ?

Mouse milk

Fat 12.1%
Protein 9%
Lactose (sugar) 3.2%

By diluting by 3, I got a closer protein match, but then the fat was too low. I read in several places that KMR is not the right composition for a mouse, and does not give the right nutrition. Contradicting information everywhere. My friend at the zoo told me about the bloat, " this sounds like the common problem we see with all babies that are not getting the exact nutritional care they would get with care from their mom.” When the bloat kept coming back, I decided to try something else in case it could help. The video I linked to is the only source I found with real success stories. The mouse forum was one death after another, all using KMR. Critter Valley have rehabilitated baby mice using the above formula. That is why I switched. Not saying it was a good move.

Like I said, I stimulated before and after feedings, as you describe, with the rubbing.

She is currently on the puppy formula that Kim suggested. She finds better success with that formula. I got it today. Daisy is not interested in it at all. She really liked the home made stuff.

The skin peeling is on her butt and crease of tail and thighs. I believe it is from stimulating her to go almost every hour for days. Formula did not get to that area.

If she makes it through the night, I will take her to get Amoxicillin. Thank you for the recommendation.

[kcassidy]

I feel so bad for you, Mousiefriend. I have only had one mouse and he was a rousing success, did really well and it was the first animal I had ever raised.

I wish I could help you, 1. Being in Arizona right now and 2. in Meetings all day long is not letting me give you the time I'd like to.

You are doing the best you can and you are being thrown so much information. I'm sorry.

Just so you know I'd never turn down a mouse, shrew or any mammal that arrives on my doorstep and I'm pretty sure that goes for just about everyone Nut on this forum.

I don't know why you are having peeling, but I agree with whomever said their skin is sensitive.

I trust my vet, she is a great licensed rehabber and if she says No Baytril I trust her. I'm worried about your girls aspiration but also don't know if it is an issue this many days later. I defer to more experienced folks on the list.

I have to go to bed and it's 3 hours later than you are, hope she is alive and losing her tummy. I'll check in with you in the AM.

Thank you for loving her so much.

Kim

[lovesmice]

I hope Daisy does not need the Amoxicillin, but glad to hear you have access to it just in case. It is hard to care for a mouse of any age, but even harder when she is a bub because so many of the medications typically prescribed to treat illness in a mouse are not safe for juvenile mice under a certain age: usually 3 months old. I have had mice over 20 years, and Baytril has always been the antibiotic of choice the exotic vets have prescribed to treat most respiratory infections. (Doxycycline is often used in combination with it for secondary infections, and I have had much success with the duo.)

Can I ask where you got the 9% protein Mouse Milk information from? I ask because the protein recommendation in the diet for most mice (Domestic) is 13%. Pregnant/nursing does, though, require higher amounts of protein and fat which of course means the bubs require more. As such, the 9% protein in the Mouse Milk is too low even if Wild mice do not have the exact same needs as Domestic mice.

Hand raising orphans of any species is extremely difficult, but extremely rewarding. You build such a strong bond from the start because of it. Also, I do realize you are being bombarded with information in which some of it is indeed contradicting. My apologies if I added to the confusion as that was not my intent, but like everyone else who responded, I hope to be of some help. All the best with this little one. You are doing a stellar job of care with your Daisy and she is lucky to have you in her life.

[PeeWee's Mom]

Been thinking about that tiny adorable mouse all day. I keep refreshing, rechecking and refreshing this thread hoping to read good news! Sending positive thoughts and vibes your way!! Godspeed! XO

[newmotherofthree?]

What ate you feeding the mouse with? A syringe? I found when rsaiosing mice and rats that a very small clean paint brush dipped in the formula for them to suck on works wonderfully

[Saverywood]

I have never raised any mice, but bloat in squirrels can kill them.

For squirrels, I do not give any more feedings until the tummy is soft and not extended. I have used infant gas drops along with warm water soaks to relieve bloat. Soak for five minutes (massaging gently while he is soaking) head above water, then dry him really good with pre-warmed blankets after each soak, let him rest and then repeat the soak every 30 mins.

Unless mice are different...No more feedings until bloat is gone. This might mean giving subQ fluids and I don't recommend subQ unless you have experience doing this, and have sterile needles, syringes, and sterile IV fluid.

Sending prayers for poor little fellow.

[lovesmice]

Saverywood is correct that bloat can kill a mouse bub. If you decide to use the Karo syrup mix again (mix 1/2 tablespoon Karo to 1/2 tablespoon hot water - cool - offer .02 ml via an eye dropper or non-needle syringe), it is safe to use every 2 hours. Stop giving the mix once she goes and her tummy is no longer bloated, but you can offer it again if the bloat returns.