Lethargic, very little movement of limbs, and no appetite, please help!

[Minaluvri]

My 8-9 week old I got yesterday, who was in the mouth of a dog, and severely underweight is not getting better. He doesn't want to eat, he kind of willingly eats about 3-4 ccs and then I can coerce him into 3-4 more. He hates it though. He hardly moves, his arm and legs hang limp most of the time, but he does have feeling in them because his toes curl if I touch his foot and he can VERY weakly push off with them, his arms are the same. He likes solid food though, after I feed/hydrate him (I hydrate between feedings hoping it will up his appetite) I just put him on ABs (the proper dosage from nancy) for being in the dogs mouth. He has no open wounds and his legs/arm aren't broken, he doesn't cry or flinch when I move them, he just seems super weak. But even when he's alert he can't move his limbs that much. Can a wild baby have MBD? Are these MBD symptoms? How can I get him to eat his formula? I've tried molasses and the side into mouth method. I can get it in his mouth he just won't swallow it just dribbles back out. He is just so lethargic, and he looks so weak, I need advice! He's going to die if he continues like this! Also his poop, it's black (moms poop?) and thick not well formed pellets. But then again he won't take much formula so I don't know how it should look. But it just dries on his bottom. I wipe it off and later it's there again. He won't poop when stimulated. No matter how long I try. He does pee though. He started this morning after being hydrated through the night. Please help!

[SammysMom]

Can you post a picture of him? Black thick stool may mean some internal bleeding, but that is only one possibility so don't let me freak you out. Is it possible that he is really dehydrated? He really could very well have a crushing injury from the dog's mouth, but a picture really might help to assess him if possible. If you can't post a pic, but could text me a pic, I will post it for you. Let me know and I will PM my telephone number if you need to text it.

[lilidukes]

My 8-9 week old I got yesterday, who was in the mouth of a dog, and severely underweight is not getting better. He doesn't want to eat, he kind of willingly eats about 3-4 ccs and then I can coerce him into 3-4 more. He hates it though. He hardly moves, his arm and legs hang limp most of the time, but he does have feeling in them because his toes curl if I touch his foot and he can VERY weakly push off with them, his arms are the same. He likes solid food though, after I feed/hydrate him (I hydrate between feedings hoping it will up his appetite) I just put him on ABs (the proper dosage from nancy) for being in the dogs mouth. He has no open wounds and his legs/arm aren't broken, he doesn't cry or flinch when I move them, he just seems super weak. But even when he's alert he can't move his limbs that much. Can a wild baby have MBD? Are these MBD symptoms? How can I get him to eat his formula? I've tried molasses and the side into mouth method. I can get it in his mouth he just won't swallow it just dribbles back out. He is just so lethargic, and he looks so weak, I need advice! He's going to die if he continues like this! Also his poop, it's black (moms poop?) and thick not well formed pellets. But then again he won't take much formula so I don't know how it should look. But it just dries on his bottom. I wipe it off and later it's there again. He won't poop when stimulated. No matter how long I try. He does pee though. He started this morning after being hydrated through the night. Please help!

Sugar water and formula drop by drop. Every two hours.

There could be internal injuries from the dog. Dogs crush
and shake prey. Where cats bite.

I would keep this baby on my chest with skin contact. Let
him cuddle up to your heart beat.

If not injured badly from the dog this is very deep shock.

Prayers for the both of you :grouphug:grouphug

[Minaluvri]

You can't tell from the pictures , because he's really fluffy, but trust me, I have babies a week younger, so I know, he's realllllly skinny!230888230889230890 also the fur around his neck looks crusty because he just ate a bite of cucumber, and a bite of snap pea and banana. He ate just a bit of them, he wouldn't eat his formula but he wanted the solid foods. He won't touch the block because he's a wild. Today is the first day I've had him so I know he didnt get MBD with me, I know about proper nutrition. I just gave him those veggies and banana because its the first thing he's showed interest and I wanted to see if he would eat it. He's got to eat SOMETHING. He's so weak and lethargic! I thought it would get better after 24 hours of hydration.

[SammysMom]

He doesn't have MBD. He is far too young for that. He does look a bit "spiky", so he is probably dehydrated. Shock can worsen dehydration for sure too. Which AB are you using? Be very sure he is well hydrated on the ABs. Maybe some watermelon would help with the dehydration?

[Minaluvri]

So more hydration? What's the sugar water recipe again? So this doesn't sound like MBD to anyone? There's nothing I can do for internal injuries right? I'm doing everything I can think of, I just don't know what's wrong! I've never had a baby who wouldn't eat. Some refused but after a short adjustment period loved their formula. He hates it. He leans back away from it or just refuses to swallow. I'll try anything! I just lost a baby last year to internal injuries from a dog. It was awful. I don't want to lose him. I can't imagine going through that again.

[Saverywood]

Oh what a sweet face.
I agree, I would put him skin to skin
and let him listen to the comfort of your heart beat.
Poor darling. So glad you found him.:thumbsup

[Minaluvri]

He's on ciprofloxacin with proper dosing from nancy with probiotics (bene-bac) as well. It's been almost 24 hours on pedialyte now. If someone gives me the sugar water recipe I'll switch to that. Should I cut out the formula all together? how can I get him to eat the sugar water? I don't know how long he's been without mom. The finders were outside when the dog picked him up from under the car. He was already under the car in the driveway. The nearest tree was three houses down across the street. I have no idea how long he's been without mom. If the finders would've had a more accurate idea of his actual condition I would've picked him up right away instead of advising them to try to reunite with mom. I can't even figure out where he came from. Should I cut out the formula and just hydrate or continue to hydrate just between feedings? Is the veggies I'm giving him ok for now? I don't want to take them away since they are the old things he will kind of eat.

[Minaluvri]

So just hydrate? What can I do for deep shock? What about internal bleeding? If its not to severe is it possible to recover from internal bleeding? When should I see a difference in energy movement levels if its dehydration? What about if its deep shock? Should I just make him drink the hydrating fluids and risk stressing him out? How much should I aim to get in him?

[Minaluvri]

He's in my shirt, skin to skin. Should I leave him there or hydrate?

[lilidukes]

He's in my shirt, skin to skin. Should I leave him there or hydrate?

Both!


Just sugar water if you have been using pedialite for the last 24
hours.

Keep him warm.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Minaluvri,
Hey guys, you know that I don't know much but I just wanted to throw this out there. If he has internal injuries there isn't much you can do but this baby looks like he is starved to death. He needs calories badly in addition to hydration. If he won't take formula, do you think that anything he will eat is needed. It's interesting that he ate the banana and cucumber. What about yogurt or a small piece of apple? I'm just thinking out loud here. :dono Poor baby!! :(

[Minaluvri]

He's making little sounds like he's grinding his teeth. Is that bad? He makes them on and off.

[SammysMom]

Leave out the salt, but here is the recipe. I would hydrate for a while, but maybe others will feel differently. Dehydration really causes lack of appetite and lethargy, but it really could be a crushing injury.
Homemade Pedialyte
1 cup warm water
1/4 tsp salt (teaspoon)
1 Tbsp sugar (tablespoon)

[Chickenlegs]

Little guy is pretty spikey. Hydrate! Hydrate! Hydrate! Drop by drop. Do you have a vet? Can you subq? Is he on heat? (if he's next to your heart that's best)

Make sure fluids are VERY warm (he's not tiny but babies seem to like their food warm). He's been injured so likely he's sore. If shaken he can have some neuro damage. He's a beautiful little guy.

[Minaluvri]

I know! He seems so skinny! I wonder how long hes been on his own I'm trying to get him to eat anything I can. But I'm getting mixed signals. Everyone says hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. But it looks like he also needs calories. I can barely get him to take one or the other I can get him to take formula and sugar water every 2 hours!

[Minaluvri]

I don't have a vet. No wildlife vets around here. It's not legal. If I take him to the nature center an hour a way...well they don't take care of babies they pass them off to rehabbers and they've been known to take too long or forget and let babies starve. And my little guy wouldn't take too long to starve in his condition. He was on a heating pad on low but now I'm doing skin to skin.

[Minaluvri]

Would it be beneficial for him to be with me other little ones? Or is it still possible he has coccidiosis? Or another disease that may get my other babies sick? Or would it be too overwhelming for him because they're more active?

[SammysMom]

We might be able to help you find a vet that would see him. Would you like us to see if we can find a licensed rehabber that might be able to help?

[island rehabber]

I would try hydration, drop by drop, every 2 hrs as lilidukes suggested, maybe with a drop of maple syrup, applesauce or any kind of flavoring to make it more palatable to him. Then sometime early in the morning I would try diluted formula. Louisa, my adult injured who was hit by a car, would not eat for the first three days I had her -- not a molecule of food and very very little water! I brought her to my vet who set her up for intravenous nutrition and sub-Q fluids around the clock! After 4 days her appetite returned with a vengeance. Are you able to do sub-Q? Since your guy is not moving around much at least it makes that easier, and this is the type of situation when sub-Q is highly recommended.

[Minaluvri]

He took 10 ccs of sugar water. He wasn't particularly happy about it but he tolerated it. He also chewed on a bit more cucumber. My biggest worry with that is that although he took 10 ccs his sides didn't bulge out like my other babies when full. Does that mean something? My friend suggested it was because he had a hole in his stomach because of internal injuries. Could that be true? It would still have to go somewhere though right? If someone else can help him more i would be willing to try. The closest TSB member is natures gift and she's over 4 hours away. I don't want someone to take away my other babies! And it's illegal without a license here.

[Minaluvri]

If he did have internal injuries how long until I would know?

[stepnstone]

Dog's mouth, sore...
Has anyone suggested (infant) Ibuprofen for pain?
It's been shown many times that they begin to
turn around when they don't have to deal with pain.

[farrelli]

I would try putting some molasses on his gums. The sugar can help bring them around, and it has good minerals in it. Maple syrup is OK too, and even other syrups if necessary.

I would also get some Ensure Plus and see if he likes it. It has a lot of concentrated nutrition and iron in case he is bleeding internally. Btw, are his gums pink or whitish?

[SammysMom]

Are you near Springfield?

[Minaluvri]

What is ensure care? Where could I find it? Am I supposed to use that instead of formula?

[SammysMom]

Ensure is a nutritional shake for humans. You can get it at CVS or Walgreens etc usually. You can usually find either butter pecan or vanilla that many like.

[farrelli]

There are a variety of kinds of Ensure, check the labels for ones high in protein and iron. I think Ensure Plus is probably a good choice. I mostly work at a cancer hospital and we recommend it to compromised patients to keep their strength up. I would offer it and see how he takes to it. If he likes it better than formula, you might give him a couple feedings of it, then rotate it with formula. Ensure is great, but it's also pretty high in sugar.

http://ensure.com/products/ensure-plus-retail

[Minaluvri]

Alright, I'm going to hydrate with sugar water every 2 hours all through tonight, tomorrow morning I'll try some diluted formula and see how he does, until, if need be, I go get the ensure. No, I'm not near Springfield, I'm nearest to Kansas City. I am worried about giving Infant ibuprofen since he's already on antibiotics. Should I give him it for pain? If so, I'll need help with dosing tomorrow morning. He likes the sugar water a bit better than the pedialyte , he tolerates it. Hopefully he'll get a good amount in him tonight. So the general consensus is, he's either dehydrated in which case I continue to hydrate through the night and then alternate feeding (either ensure or FV) and hydrating tomorrow, or he has internal injuries, in which case there is nothing I can do, although ensure might help? That's my plan then. Did I miss anything else I could do?

[Minaluvri]

Sorry for the poop pics but all of a sudden he pooped a bunch of big poops like this 230910its not well formed but its no longer sticky or runny. It's the right consistency just not pellet shaped. It's also brown instead of black now, but boy does it stink. Does this give any clues to what's happening inside his poor little body?

[Minaluvri]

He pooped about 3 of those big, light brown, stinky poops. I think they were banana poops actually. since thats mostly what he ate and it was a similar consistency. So I wiped his bottom he pooped another little one and peed! He was a bit more active although his limbs were still weak. He ate about 6 ccs of sugar water and took his AB. And probiotics (I give him some probiotics 2 hours before the meds and some directly afterwards.) and then I put him back and he started nibbling the HHB block! It doesn't look like he got any bites out of it, but hey! At least he's interested! I did the pinch test and it bounced right back. His fur doesn't like as spiky anymore either. I think if I keep hydrating until morning, my problem will be getting him to eat his formula unless he ends up liking ensure, that'll make my life easier. I just pray its not internal damage.

[stepnstone]

I am worried about giving Infant ibuprofen since he's already on antibiotics. Should I give him it for pain? If so, I'll need help with dosing tomorrow morning.

No need to worry, it's done all the time in combination
with ab's and I would not suggest it if it were a problem.
Pain can suppress him, dosing is not a problem...

[Minaluvri]

Alright how do I prepare it? Does it matter what brand? Just plain old infant ibuprofen? He weighs 162 grams.

[Charley Chuckles]

:bump:bump:bump

[Minaluvri]

Alright I went I and got the ensure plus, do I just give it warmed up or do I we'd to add something to it? I also have the infants ibuprofen but I don't know how much to give.

[farrelli]

The dose would be about .04CCs of INFANT ibuprophen.

Also, you shouldn't give probiotics immediately after ABs. The ABs will just kill it off, thereby not only invalidating the probiotics, but reducing the effectiveness of the AB. Wait at least two hours.

[Chickenlegs]

Your baby has multiple problems--he's injured and he's starving. It sounds like things are beginning to turn around. It tales time and that time can be an eternity for a caregiver. Everything said here is spot on. The starvation issue brings to mind something that's in a sticky re when to hydrate with pedialyte and when to use sugar water. An emaciated baby needs the sugar but not the salt. My Willimina was almost starved to death AND dehydrated. She's fat and sassy now. It took over a week to see real improvement. His poop and pee will be a good indicator of how he's doing--and like I said--it looks like he's turning around. Sending healing and love your way.

[Nancy in New York]

Here's the post that chickenlegs was referring to.

#17
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?35173-five-pinkies-need-help&p=775423#post775423

[Minaluvri]

Was your willimina's limbs also not moving much? I feel like he's not as weak anymore, because he moves his head a lot and is awake more often, but his limbs still don't move much, like there's no muscle whatsoever. Is this because of the pain, something the ibuprofen might help or could it be something else? I feel like he really needs to eat so can I start the food with the hydration just in between?

[farrelli]

If you do the pinch test, and his skin bounces back, I would start the food. What kind of formula are you giving? If his skin is still loose, I'd start diluted formula.

[farrelli]

Have you tried the molasses?

[Minaluvri]

Well originally fox vallley 20/50, but now I picked up some ensure plus, and I'm going to rotate that with the FV since he hates the FV, and sort of likes the ensure. He just doesn't like to eat in general. He'll kind of suck on the first 3cc's and from then on I nudge the nipple in through the side of his mouth and he just tolerates it and mostly swallows it. Sometimes he won't and lets it dribble out though. It really doesn't matter what it is, he just doesn't like eating in general.

[Minaluvri]

It's hard to describe the way he eats...how can I post a video?

[farrelli]

You have to post videos to external sites like Youtube and post a link here. If you can't figure out how (it's free and easy), I can post it on my webserver. I'm pretty busy though. I'm falling behind at work because so many people need help today and it seems that lots of people aren;t on.

[SammysMom]

Well, I am back for a while and I would suggest that you mix the FV and the Ensure together rather than separately. That gives you the ability to start to add less and less of the Ensure until he is drinking just the FV.

[Minaluvri]

So I can mix them? I didn't know if that was ok.
Well I'll try that then and post a video from photobucket.

[Nancy in New York]

So I can mix them? I didn't know if that was ok.
Well I'll try that then and post a video from photobucket.

What SammysMom means is mix the FV as usual, and then add the ensure to that.
Perhaps start off with 50% Fox Valley mixed formula and 50% ensure.
If this ratio doesn't work go to 25% FV and 75% ensure.

[SammysMom]

Excactly, Nancy! Thank-you for clarifying that for me.:thumbsup

[Minaluvri]

Yeah, that's what I did. I started off with a 75% ensure to 25% FV and he took to it even better than the ensure by itself. Maybe his appetite is picking up a tiny bit? Very slowly. He was a bit more active today though...a bit. Just to clarify: the 0.04 cc's of infant ibuprofen, that is for the whole day to be taken like the AB's? half the dose twice daily, twelve hours apart? Or not?

[lilidukes]

The ib is every eight hours as needed. 0.04

:grouphug:grouphug

[jbtartell]

I pmed and suggested a few tips... a few drops of molasses in 5 cc warm water drop by drop just help keep sugar steady and help with hydration.. in between feedings.. this has worked for me in the past and they love the flavor.

[jbtartell]

and if there is a vet or vet tech to sub q tomorrow if no change.. sometimes u can just take them on in for a subq no apt or cost.. depends on the vet office..

[Minaluvri]

He was doing better and better up until now! I see what I think might be spit up formula in his cage! What's wrong with him? What should I do?

[jbtartell]

hmmmm may be too rich with the mixture?? may try to feed separately alternate the feedings. hows hydration? and how much is he eating at once?

[Minaluvri]

He's only been eating around 6-7 cc's of formula. His appetite was getting better every feeding though. His hydration is good. I'm gonna give him some more sugar water and molasses tonight though because throwing up is dehydrating. Is this because he's on AB's? Does he need more probiotics? Is that why his gut is messed up? I don't know, I hope it's nothing serious! None of my babies have ever thrown up before!

[SammysMom]

How close to feeding was the vomiting? The 50/50 formula should be fine. It is what is recommended by Chris Clark as the perfect squirrel formula. If you are adding cream, leave that out though. Hydration is a must so that is a great idea. How often are you feeding? Can you still see a milk line? I don't remember how old and if he has fur on his tummy. Pee and poop is normal?

[SammysMom]

Forget the question about milk line. I see he is 8 - 9 weeks old.

[Saverywood]

Any news? Just wondering how the little one is doing?

[Minaluvri]

Yeah , thank you! My little guy is much better now. Hydration is great, appetite satisfactory, poops the proper color although lacking a bit in solidness. But one step at a time, it might be because he's still on AB's (from being in the dogs mouth) I am giving him probiotics though. He has two more days left of the AB's. I've stopped giving Him the infant ibuprofen
Because he's moving his limbs and doesn't seem to be in pain. He's still not quite as active as my other ones although he has been starting to climb the cage :grin2 and he's liking his solids (veggies and OCCASIONAL fruit) as well as his HHBs although I'm a bit unsure as to if he's eating it or just shredding it (I see a questionable amount of crumbs) plus he tries to escape my lap (just like my others) if I take too long refilling the syringe...heh impatience :tap And no more vomiting! however I'm still a bit concerned about his weight. He's eating the proper amount for his weight, but not for his age, he came to me severely underweight and although he's gaining, not as fast as when I first got him and not nearly enough to catch up with my others who are a week younger. He's only 170g. My other babies are 230. He came to me exactly a week ago at 139g. He eats 11 ccs. Plus 1-2 HHB's, a few slices of cucumber, avocado, red pepper, and today half a raspberry, yesterday some banana, the day before some yogurt. Still this is not nearly enough. My other babies are eating twice the amount. Should I try to get him to eat more or let it be because its an ok amount for his weight?

[Saverywood]

:thumbsup That is good news. Wow, you have done a wonderful job!
Sounds like he is eating good for his size, I would not push him.
Sounds like you feed them very healthy, good stuff, just try a little
More green leafy stuff like the greens in spring salad mix.
Again, good job. :thumbsup

[DarkLies212]

Can we have more pics? :Love_Icon:grin2

[Minaluvri]

Alright, like kale? I've tried spinach but... It was not happening. I got the "seriously mom?" look. He is doing much better, except for his weight. When I walk in he will be climbing on the roof or the sides of his cage which is so much of an improvement over when I got him. His poops are mostly the right color, and aren't liquidy but they look a little more...hmmm...jelly like? Slightly more squishy and just no as much of a uniform solid yellow color. Is this because he's been eating solid foods? He has HHB's but I wonder how much he eats and I discover trails of crumbs in his cage everywhere. So he mostly eats cucumbers, avocado, red pepper, snap peas and today some carrot. The poop and his weight is my main concern. He's eating 11 ccs pretty well now, but my others are eating 17-18. They weigh 220 + g. He weighs 170 consistently and while he hasn't lost weight he's not gaining either. I feel like he's eatin a reasonable amount, I'm sure his stomach was a bit shrunk from starvation, so I don't want to push it but...he's way too skinny. Is that alright or what can I do to get his weight up?231938231939231940

[farrelli]

Has anyone given you the speech about no veggies or fruits before they're eating their blocks consistently?

For babies who lack in development, many people use this:

http://www.henryspets.com/fox-valley-ultraboost/

[Minaluvri]

Oh yes, he goes through 2 blocks a day before he gets his veggies. He just leaves lots of crumbles, he's not at all an efficient eater, he does eat a good amount of it though. However I got him at an age where he was already weaning so I feel good he's eating the blocks at all. None of my wilds outside will even touch the blocks. Too foreign and processed.

[amandaleet1972]

Little guy is pretty spikey. Hydrate! Hydrate! Hydrate! Drop by drop. Do you have a vet? Can you subq? Is he on heat? (if he's next to your heart that's best)

Make sure fluids are VERY warm (he's not tiny but babies seem to like their food warm). He's been injured so likely he's sore. If shaken he can have some neuro damage. He's a beautiful little guy.

I was gonna say the same about SQ.. That's what we did with the babies you found for me, who were in quite bad shape.. Any friendly vets around? The two I have were emaciated and even just after that SQ shot did a 75% turnaround...
Wishing the best.. Poor thing..

[Saverywood]

:Love_Icon What a cutie. Love his eyes. Ty for picture.
Yes, green stuff like arugula, bok Choy, romaine lettuce, kale..no spinach