Our 4yr old Stormie is very sick please help

[Stormie]

We have a 4 year old Squirrel named Stormie whom we've raised from a baby when she fell out of a tree during a storm. She has been a happy active and borderline fat girl her whole life and quite suddenly she started losing weight. She is now after a week skin n bones she is weak and unbalanced and two nights ago she "fainted" and fell from her perch. Here's the weirdest part she eats and drinks in fact she acts like she's starving! Her diet consists veggies mostly broccoli and greens, fruit and nuts. After coming to this page two nights ago I have added vitamin D and calcium carbonate in the form of tums to her diet in case this might be MBD and have bought her some squirrel block. She seems a bit better but not much I'm so worried I'm going to lose our sweet smart little girl can anyone give us some ideas of what might be going on with her? I'm not exactly sure what type of squirrel she is, we live in southeastern Washington she is on the smaller side and is mostly grey with a cream tan underbellie and a reddish tail.

[Milo's Mom]

How much vitD have you added and how have you added it?

[Milo's Mom]

Is she peeing and pooping normally?

Do you have any other pets in the house? If so what and have they had fleas? Have you ever had fleas in your home?

[Milo's Mom]

What is the strength of the TUMS you are giving her?

How are you giving them? Whole or diluted in water via syringe?

How much is she taking in a 24 hour period?

[Nancy in New York]

How close are you to Vancouver?
I have alerted a member in Washington, just
in case you need their help.:grouphug

[Stormie]

How much vitD have you added and how have you added it?

We are giving her liquid vitamin d on her broccoli top we add half a dropper which is about 1000ius and the tums was a 750mg crushed up and diluted with water which she takes about half to 3 quarters of via syringe. She seems to be going potty normally tho her urine is smellier than usual, she gets fresh water daily and I see her drinking. We do have several other animals in the home but have never had a flea problem. I was holding Stormie last night and giving her a good check over for any sores or bites and I didn't notice any bugs. Should I do a flea treatment on her and if so do u have any recommendations for treatment? Thank u so much for any ideas to help our little girl!

[Stormie]

How close are you to Vancouver?
I have alerted a member in Washington, just
in case you need their help.:grouphug

Oh thank u so much! We are about 4 hours away from Vancouver but I am willing to do just about anything in my power to get my girl healthy again!

[island rehabber]

Stormie, I would begin the MBD protocol ASAP, because she has enough of the typical symptoms to warrant this and it may just save her life.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?34495-Emergency-Treatment-of-Metabolic-Bone-Disease-%28MBD%29

In the meantime I would fix her cage so that she cannot fall off anything; her bones are brittle and she will risk fractures if she keeps falling. Line her cage with nice soft fleece, old T-shirts, anything without loops that her claws could get caught in. She may even appreciate a heating pad at this point -- sore bones hurt.

[Milo's Mom]

The reason i was asking about fleas is because they transmit tapeworms.

I am not an expert but I would back way off on the Vit D. If she is eating her Henry's blocks there is no reason to supplement with more VitD. Too much Vit D can be toxic.

At this point I personally would not do a flea treatment.

If you saw improvement after she took the TUMS water keep doing it. Have you read the MBD treatment? To me this does not sound like MBD, but a little extra calcium will not hurt her...not to mention the extra fluids.

You said about her pee being little. Was it darker than usual? Did it smell bad/strong?

Have you smelled her poops? Do they smell different than normal? (yeah I know lots of questions about poops and yes we smell squirrel poops all the time around here) :)

EDIT: Just reread what you wrote. Her urine is smellier than usual. (I thought you said smaller) Is it darker in color than usual?

[kastillo]

I was thinking worms, too, MM. Getting skinny but eating like she's starving?
Do you have a vet that will do a fecal examine.

What is usually given to squirrels for worms?

[SammysMom]

Just to be certain, I am going to post the whole MBD treatment protocol here. Offering a spot in her cage with a heating pad on low UNDER the cage might be a good idea as she may feel achy.
Emergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW. Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:

--Tums or calcium pills (any kind)
--a syringe, eyedropper, or spoon

Crush one Tums or calcium pill and add a little water or fruit juice. Use the syringe, eyedropper, or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. Feed a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, and spread it out through the day and night to keep his blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

If the squirrel is having seizures, weakness, or paralysis, the symptoms will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones.

Long-Term Treatment for MBD

The next step to curing MBD is to fix the diet.

1. Remove ALL seeds, nuts, corn, and treats.

2. Follow the Healthy Diet For Pet Squirrels, which can be found at the top of the “Squirrel Nutrition” forum. (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16093) Your squirrel MUST eat rodent block or squirrel blocks every day. If your squirrel doesn't like rodent blocks, you can try crushing them up with peanut butter or avocado temporarily. You can also make a tastier version of squirrel blocks using the recipe at the top of the Squirrel Nutrition forum.

3. In addition to the Healthy Diet, you will need to continue giving extra calcium every day for several weeks. Either use the syringe/eyedropper or you can try putting the calcium on a small piece of fruit.

Week 1: calcium = 500 mg per day
Week 2: calcium = 250 mg per day
Weeks 3-8: calcium = 100 mg per day

The cause of the acute symptoms—weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis—is a drop in blood calcium levels. If these symptoms return at any time, you will need to give another emergency dose of calcium.

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone. Also, if he is in a tall cage, either place him in a smaller cage, or pad the bottom very well.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.

[Stormie]

Her urine is pretty dark but there's lots of it both urine and poo we have her in a big parrot cage with branches to climb on and she sleeps in a hanging pouch. This morning she is much more active but I'm still considering putting her in a pet carrier in case this is MBD. I started MBD treatment that was posted here two days ago and she seems to have a bit more strength but she is sooooo skinny still. I will also removed the vitamin d from her diet and continue with the tums, the tums are fruit flavored (it's what I had on hand) but should I go get some just plain tums? I just don't want to give her anything that could do more harm than good.

[SammysMom]

If you use Tums just the way it is called for in the protocol you will be fine. Removing the Vitamin D is probably best for her at this point too.:grouphug:Love_Icon:grouphug

[Stormie]

I just found a vet here that has squirrels! so I will call n get her in for an exam I think, thank u everyone for all ur help I will keep u all posted on our little girls progress!:grouphug

[SammysMom]

Do not let the vet give an injection of Convenia. Please check here before using medication. Many vets are not familiar with which meds and proper dosing. Many experienced members here can help you to be sure you have the right med and dose. Even tell the vet that you are working with very knowledgeable people and he may be willing to learn too.

[Duckman]

I just sent Stormie a PM. I decided to be lazy today, and slept in. I wish I hadn't!

[Stormie]

SM thank u so much for the advice! I will not let any the vet give any treatment until I check it here first! Do u know of any other way she could get worms if she doesn't have fleas? I'm just so confused as to why she's so skinny and acts so hungry? Here is a layout of her daily diet

Morning: one large broccoli top and small slice of Apple
During the day: various veg like carrot and greens
Night: one large broccoli top and small slice of Apple
She has her block in a bowl all the time and a water dish that is refreshed daily
I do notice with the water dish tho that sometimes she'll pee or poo in it. I clean it out immediately when I notice it but should I try another method of giving her water? We tried a hanging water bottle but she won't use those for some reason, she is a pretty picky little girl lol. Thanks again everyone I was feeling so very helpless and like a horrible mom but I feel so much better now and more importantly I have hope!:Love_Icon

[Milo's Mom]

Is anyone that is reading this thinking possibly a UTI? Lots of urine eliminates dehydration, dark smelly urine points to a possible UTI. Increased activity may point feeling pain from a potential UTI. Increased activity would result in weight loss.

I do think there may be more than one thing going on here and I would stay on course with the TUMS, but I would also look into a UTI or maybe even Coccidia.

[SammysMom]

The UTI is a very good point. If it is possible for you get get her to pee on a clean surface like in a clean plastic tote or container and then draw the urine up in a syringe or even pour it into a ziplok bag you could take it for urinalysis when you go to the vet.

[Nancy in New York]

If you have vet access, and this is a trusted vet that will NOT confiscate the squirrel, I believe that a urine test, and fecal is called for. As mentioned this could be more that one problem going on, so to cover all bases, I would have both done. It's probably standard procedure anyway for a first time visit.
Just please make sure this vet will treat this squirrel, because they usually will only treat if you are a licensed rehabber.

[Stormie]

SM and MM I will try to collect some urine and poo samples to take with us for analysis Her poo looks pretty normal same size shape and color. Do u know if I would see worms in her poo if it is worms she has like u can with dogs?

[SammysMom]

You probably wouldn't without a microscope. Taking both is a great plan! Just be sure that the urine is from a very clean spot. Often with Sammy, I can put him onto a counter or some other cool surface as soon as he comes out of his box and he will pee. Like running the water in the sink to get a kid to pee...lol

[Nancy in New York]

We are giving her liquid vitamin d on her broccoli top we add half a dropper which is about 1000ius l!


Just a little FYI:

1000 IU of vit D is three week's worth!
Daily requirement is approximately 48 IU

[SammysMom]

How long have you been giving the Vitamin D?

[Milo's Mom]

Just wanted to clarify some stuff. First, I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone that have gone to the MBD treatment, none at all. It will not hurt and may even help.

Next I want to further explain why I do not feel that this is MBD off the bat.


Extreme weight loss is not usually a feature of MBD; theoretically it could be, but it is just not normally seen.
Huge appetite is also not usual with MBD, it is normally the reverse.
A huge appetite is a little more consistent with coccidia blocking absorption of nutrients; always hungry and never satisfied.


My concern is that Coccidia can kill (and those of us that have fought it know how bad it can be). Personally, I would start Stormie on Baycox ASAP and get a fecal done just as quickly. Please keep in mind that Coccidia does not always show it ugly face in fecals.....

Many of you do not know that Ellie had some pretty serious issues over the past few months. She became crazy active, ate everything in sight at all times of the day and night, and lost more than 100 grams. My fat lil'punkin was boney. I up'd her caloric intake (actually I nearly tripled it) and I treated her with Baycox once. It took some time but she slowly started gaining her weight back. Her pee and poop were totally fine the entire time.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, I am simply sharing my experiences as they relate to the commonalities I am seeing.

[Duckman]

My first concern is the VitD. She has been overdosed with it (high levels of Vitamin D is what is used for Rat Poison, and Squirrel are part of the rat family). Please stop the VitD ASAP! I just realized that the effect of VitD poisoning in Rats is dehydration and it stops the body from processing food! Her exact symptoms to a tee. The problem is I don't know how to counter VitD poisoning. Anyone else know?

[Milo's Mom]

My first concern is the VitD. She has been overdosed with it (high levels of Vitamin D is what is used for Rat Poison, and Squirrel are part of the rat family). Please stop the VitD ASAP! I just realized that the effect of VitD poisoning in Rats is dehydration and it stops the body from processing food! Her exact symptoms to a tee. The problem is I don't know how to counter VitD poisoning. Anyone else know?



The very first thing I would do is hydrate hydrate hydrate hydrate....till her eyeballs are floating. This can be done now, like while research is being done.

[Milo's Mom]

Vitamin K injection would counteract the D

[Nancy in New York]

My first concern is the VitD. She has been overdosed with it (high levels of Vitamin D is what is used for Rat Poison, and Squirrel are part of the rat family). Please stop the VitD ASAP! I just realized that the effect of VitD poisoning in Rats is dehydration and it stops the body from processing food! Her exact symptoms to a tee. The problem is I don't know how to counter VitD poisoning. Anyone else know?



STOP THE CALCIUM NOW
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DOSE THE VITAMIN D?

Oh, and I would HOLD OFF on giving any calcium right now. Excess vit D releases calcium from the bones into the bloodstread; sq may well have EXCESS blood calcium right now = urination problems plus This can be fatal.

Make sure your vet knows sq has been given 20 times proper dosage of vit D for however long it's been. He needs to know that.

[SammysMom]

Nobody's feeling should EVER be hurt over shared information that could save a squirrelly life! That D concerns me quite a bit. A fecal and a urinalysis are definitely in order and if the vet would give you Baycox as it is possibly coccidia that would be wonderful. As MM said, coccidia often does not show itself.
If you send me your address via PM, I will send you some HHBs to try.

[Nancy in New York]

Please answer these questions immediately:

How many days have you been giving vit D. Is this ONCE a day or what?
Is a half of a syringe the daily dose? What is the exact dose daily that you give?
WHEN did the squirrel get it's last dose of Vitamin D?

[Stormie]

Okay now I'm really freaking out about the vitamin d:-( she's only had it 3 times but that's about 3000ius over the 3 days. She is doing much better today after I started giving her that stuff so just so I'm clear I should stop the MBD treatment and get a vet with poo n pee samples and in the mean time keep as much water in her as possible?? How do I get Baycox does it have to be rxd thru a vet? What other signs should I look for in regards to vitamin d poisoning?
The last dose was this morning on her broccoli top :-(

[Duckman]

Yes, please give as much water as possible. STOP the MBD treatment until you can get her to a vet. This needs to be done asap, as high levels of VitD is used as a poison for rats! Take the poops and urine in, just in case there are worms, but at this point, I highly doubt that worms are involved, after reading up on the VitD poisoning. If you would, can you please send me your phone number in a PM? That is a much quicker way to communicate at this point.
I realized you were in Richland, not Richmond, so you are over next to Kennewick. It is about 4-5 hours away, but if needed, I can be on the road in a few moments notice.

[SammysMom]

Since the weight-loss was over months, the initial issue isn't the vitamin D. Getting a stool and urine specimen is still of utmost importance. Are you taking the squirrel to the vet today?

[SammysMom]

Our resident nutrition expert says that you need to tell the vet how much and for how long Vit D was given. Bloodwork may be a little risky so be very conservative about putting the squirrel under anesthesia right now. Since you know that the Vit D OD is a fact, you can kind of know that this is the immediate issue. Then once that is resolved you can address the rest of it. The fecal and the urinalysis are very important.

[Stormie]

Our resident nutrition expert says that you need to tell the vet how much and for how long Vit D was given. Bloodwork may be a little risky so be very conservative about putting the squirrel under anesthesia right now. Since you know that the Vit D OD is a fact, you can kind of know that this is the immediate issue. Then once that is resolved you can address the rest of it. The fecal and the urinalysis are very important.

I can't get her in till Monday as they're closed. I will not give her anymore MBD treatment and I will get as much water in her as I'm able. She's actually quite perky today but still acts ravenous. I just cleaned her cage (it has a pull out clean catch in the bottom) and her poops looked like they always do small and round and range on color from almost black to brown with a medium hard consistency. I didn't notice any mucous or anything abnormal but I am no vet or even squirrel expert. Should I start some pedialyte as well since this maybe a kidney/dehydration issue?
Also I am reading an answering from my iPhone as I don't have a computer at home and for some reason I can't respond to PMs I will be at my folks house tomorrow and I will respond to them! Thanks again everyone for all your advice and support and for not bashing me for being totally ignorant and giving my precious sweet girl something bad!

[SammysMom]

We are so glad that we can help!!! I would stay away from pedialyte due to the salt putting stress on organs.

[rygel1hardt]

Has anyone thought about the possibility of diabetes? Weight loss and strong urine are some of the signs. Have the vet check for sugar in the urine sample. Also thyroid can be a reason for weight loss. The vitamin D is a huge concern but is not the original problem. Please keep us posted on her for now and as soon as you can after her vet visit on Monday. Stacey

[SammysMom]

Thank-you Stacey! Those are very good bits of information!

[Milo's Mom]

Not sure if your question about where to get Baycox was answered or not. Go to beardeddragon.co. Note it is .co NOT .com

[Duckman]

Stormie, Can you tell us what type of squirrel Stormie is? Is she a Fox Squirrel, Douglas, Eastern Grey, or a Red? Do you know her weight (or a close guesstimate? Maybe post a picture of her, if your not sure of the breed?

[SammysMom]

Stormie today...

[Duckman]

She looks like a Fox squirrel, maybe an Eastern Grey, about 500-600 grams. Very spiky fur though, which looks like dehydration, at least to me.

[SammysMom]

Update from Stormie's Mom:
"Update on Stormie, the vet was very nice and actually has pet squirrels in his office. He couldn't determine what was going on with her but he took her samples and is going to call me back with further instructions. He didn't want to start anything until the samples came back, he said aside from being skinny she looks good. He suggested to put a bowl full of greens and block in her cage and let her eat till she stops so that's what I did and she is sleeping soundly now. She was very active at the vet and when we got home so hopefully we are on the right track!"

[Nancy in New York]

Update from Stormie's Mom:
"Update on Stormie, the vet was very nice and actually has pet squirrels in his office. He couldn't determine what was going on with her but he took her samples and is going to call me back with further instructions. He didn't want to start anything until the samples came back, he said aside from being skinny she looks good. He suggested to put a bowl full of greens and block in her cage and let her eat till she stops so that's what I did and she is sleeping soundly now. She was very active at the vet and when we got home so hopefully we are on the right track!"
So glad that things went well with getting the samples.
Hope the results will determine what's going on with her.