Can someone help?

[acorniv]

In the Introduce Yourself forum Squirrel Mamma is reporting she just got a squirrel that appears to have been aspirating from another persons care. Can someone knowledgable go there and give her some advice? Seems more serious to me than that forum?

Appreciate it.

[tanja]

Yes, I just thought about coming to this forum. Sorry, new here. ANyway, is there anything that can be done. He makes really weird noises breathing and seems more lethargic than his sister or the other squirrel I have raised. I just have never experienced this. He was fed with a large syringe (if he got milk, which was not regularly) he mainly got pecans, oatmeal bars and dried fruit. he is only about eight weeks old.
Tanja

[squirrelfriend]

I have never had one with this problem as of yet. Hopefully one of the rehabbers will come along. All I can suggest is to keep him warm and feed formula (Esbilac) more slowly through a smaller syringe. Keep him half on half off of a heating pad.

Is it a clicking that you are hearing? Perhaps he has liquid in his lungs or pnumonia?

I reall hope a rehabber comes along soon to help. Best of luck to you and your little guy.

[thundersquirrel]

hi, rehabber here. isn't it convenient having a teenage rehabber? i stay up late. :)

that really sounds like pneumonia. i would keep him warm and hydrated, but you can hold on the food until further notice. he won't die without food at this point, but if he's ill fluids and heat can help a great deal.

don't force anything on him since he's having trouble breathing. tomorrow, if you can get to a veterinarian, he needs an antibiotic. i believe we've used baytril in the past, but i may be wrong (we haven't had pneumonia for a while now).

are there any other symptoms? if you think he's up to it, give him a full examination and look for anything else unusual, i.e. marks, discharge, crustiness, check his poop, etc.. don't stress him out though.

we can help him, but just as a warning, usually when this happens i prepare myself for the worst, because sometimes squirrels just don't make it. but keep your hopes up.

[Apple Corps]

tanja - I posted a link for you on the Introduce yourself - outlines meds in some detail.

[tanja]

thank you. you guys know your stuff. this is going to be a long night. gosh, this is like having kids all over again. not really any other symptoms. poops are dark, hardly got milk.

[island rehabber]

Tanja I agree with thundersquirrel -- this baby needs antibiotics as quickly as posssible. Baytril is what I use for 'clicking' or aspirational pneumonia, and it works fast. Is there a wildlife vet you can contact ASAP?? I have the dosage for a squirrel, even if you can't find a wildlife vet but you know a cat & dog vet who will be cooperative?? Time is of the essence, here, as they say.....

[Secret Squirrel]

Amoxi drops ( amoxicillin) is what I have used in the past and it works well also. A vet has to prescribe this too. I hope your baby gets well soon.

[acorniv]

Tanja,

I hope your new little guy is better today.

I just remembered that you use cows milk. I found a breakdown of milk for various animals, and you can see from it why puppy formula became the food of choice. Being on cow's milk might complicate the problems your squirrel is having.


Milk composition table, in percentages, from Borden, Inc. research:

Species Solids Fat Protein Carbohydrates
Cow 11.9 3.5 3.4 4.6
Dog 24.0 10.5 7.9 3.8
Cat 20.0 6.5 9.0 6.8
Gray Squirrel 26.6 12.6 9.2 3.4

[acorniv]

this should read better:


Milk composition table, in percentages, from Borden, Inc. research:

Cow:............solids=11.9 + fats=03.5 + protein=3.4 + carbs=4.6
Dog:.............soilids=24.0 + fats=10.5 + protein=7.9 + carbs=3.8
Cat:.............solids=20.0 + fats= 06.5 + protein=9.0 + carbs=6.8
Gray Squirrel:..solids=26.6 + fats=12.6 + protein=9.2 + carbs=3.4

[thundersquirrel]

that's a nice resource there, acorniv. :goodpost

how's the little guy today tanja? have you seen a vet yet?

[Gabe]

acorniv, nice research. The numbers are a bit high, are they based on dry matter with the water removed? They should be based on wet matter as we add water to the powder and dilute those numbers. None of my rehab books come close to those percentages, they are much lower than that, which is why I wondered if it were dry matter.

[Pamela]

:thinking

[acorniv]

acorniv, nice research. The numbers are a bit high, are they based on dry matter with the water removed? They should be based on wet matter as we add water to the powder and dilute those numbers. None of my rehab books come close to those percentages, they are much lower than that, which is why I wondered if it were dry matter.

I don't know what it as based on. I found this on a website after I googled under kitten milk replacer and squirrels, because some veternary student on another list insists I'm going to kill MH with Esbilac. If you'd like I can try to find the site again - it also had oppossum and rabbit and other animals. Dog was by far the closest to squirrels.

I thought it was interesting that it said it came form Borden, a milk company.

I'll see if I can find more info. Might take a bit because it is so late and I'm committed other things tomorrow. But if I cna find it quickly.

Here is the whole chart - you'll have to tease the numbers apart :
Milk composition table, in percentages, from Borden, Inc. research:
Species Solids Fat Protein Carbohydrates
Cow 11.9 3.5 3.0 4.6
Dog 24.0 10.5 7.9 3.8
Cat 20.0 6.5 9.0 6.8
Rabbit 30.5 10.4 15.5 1.9
Mouse 25.8 12.1 9.0 3.2
Pig 20.0 7.3 6.6 5.0
Sheep 20.5 8.6 5.7 5.4
Goat 12.8 4.1 3.7 4.2
Opossum 14.0 4.7 4.0 4.5
Gray Squirrel 26.6 12.6 9.2 3.4
Beaver 33.0 19.8 9.0 2.2
Coyote 24.5 10.7 9.9 2.3
Fox 18.1 6.3 6.2 4.6
Racoon 13.4 3.9 4.0 4.7
Otter 35.9 23.9 11.0 .1
Deer 23.1 8.0 10.6 2.8
Antelope 25.2 13.0 6.9 .4.0

This book was cited - may have been in it:

"Wild Orphan Babies: Mammals and Birds: Caring for Them and Setting Them Free" by William J. Weber, DVM, Holt, Rinehard & Winston, NY, 1975, 1978, 1980

[acorniv]

here it is:http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/18.htm

[acorniv]

While we're on the subject, this page had some really good stuff - the nutrient break down of foods squirrels typically eat. This is from a book about nutrition for non-human primates but much of is is applicable to squirrels ( or us)

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9826&page=197

[Gabe]

Thanks, I'll check out those sites.
Borden's makes Esbilac. My aunt used to work as a researcher in their lab, and until she retired I used to get free samples of Esbilac.

[Apple Corps]

Any updates on how the little fuzzer is doing??

[Gabe]

I've checked out the first site. She reccommends cows milk and egg for use as a formula. She was also amazed the oppossums eat bugs in rotted trees. I'm not sure she is a rehabber. The formula she uses from the Opossum Society is outdated and no longer used. I've never known them to give out their formula. They are very very strict as to who they give information to. The tables that she posted appear to be dry matter and that is okay as long as we don't mix apples with oranges.

So, as for the composition, that is alright information when we remember it is dry matter she is talking about.

[TexanSquirrel]

Good luck!!

[tanja]

Sorry everyone. I had computer problems. Among other things. But our babies are doing fine. I am so glad!!!. The clicking sound was gone in the morning and he was hungry as all get out and not lethargic at all. Thank you all so much for the helpful responses. Next time (and hopefully that will never be) I will know exactly what to do. I do not have an exotic or small animal vet, but I am positiv that they will not let me down.
THANKS SO MUCH TO THE PERSON WHO SENT INFO ABOUT MEDS USED TO TREAT RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS IN RATS! I will keep that info around!! Helpful for vets too!!

Here is the thing. I am getting very confused about these esbilac and scalded cows milk discussions. First of all, how come the little male, who when I got him looked pretty rough, tail not as fuzzy as his sisters and skinny is now thriving, now that he is on scalded milk? Should a male baby not be larger than his sister - well they looked the same at first, after she was with us she looks healthy and fuzzy tail and playful and all and he was a little mess? Guess considering that he was fed milk only once or twice a day and oatmeal bars did not help his growth (not by me, people before me!) I mean I just don't have a positive feeling about esbilac, its like processed food for my kids, just not good. Of course there is nothing that comes close to mama squirrels milk!! ALso esbilac is diluted, so does that not change the amount of protein, carbs and all those essential nutrients? Doesn't esbilac contain milk anyway???As long as they seem to thrive and behave like healthy squirrels what it the problem with milk? Sammy my big one jumps around in a seven by four foot cage and the room at times, and has fallen and had no problems. If I am not mistaken then MBD is not caused by Cows milk. (how could it be, it is calcium deficiency that causes it isn't it??? well, milks got enough of that). Yet, I hear this everywhere. Surely, those MBD cases are mainly due to poor nutrition. I do not believe that milk causes diarrhea or bloating (unless unheated!). That happens with esbilac just as well. I had problems with milk as a child - diarrhea and cramping every time - it was hell- was never gonna touch milk again. What did my grandmother do? She heated it - and I was fine. Back to Squirrels: One has to be very careful to feed slow and to tummy massage after meals- I found that out quick. I am open for all opinions (please respectfully). I am always open to learn. Surely ya'll will let me know that I am wrong soon. :))
And yeah, one rehabber wrote that milk is not the same as it was twenty so years ago. My question to that is: what in the world is still healthy nowadays in this world anyway???. Well, I think milk is better than something artificially and chemically produced. I have heard and read bad about either one: milk and esbilac. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you know what I mean. I guess discussions about that will never end. Fact is I respect rehabbers for what they do and know. That is one heck of a job. I just tend to question things. Never let my doctor treat me with what the thinks is best unless I gave it enough thougt and research. HA HA. :thinking
Tanja

[Gabe]

I guess I'm not going to argue the point. You are right, Esbilac is made out of cow's milk.
The differences that I see is more apparent when you compare it with baby formula. Of course breast feeding our children is the best that we can do. If that is impossible, then we resort to formulas. The formulas are made to closely resemble our own breast milk, nutrients are added. We don't feed our babies cows milk at birth because it lacks the proper nutrients.
Years ago, before rehabbing became a science, we fed wildlife evaporated milk and they did thrive and were released. Then we began to study them after release and found that they were not as healthy, quick and agile as their wild friends. Even though they grew and appeared fat and healthy we did not see the long term affect. It is with that knowledge that we started to change what we were doing. In rehabbing wildlife our goal has become more long term than short term. Nursing squirrels milk was analyzed and research was done to get the right formula.

Mother squirrels milk has 12.6% fat and 9.2% protein
Cow's milk has 3.3% fat and 3.3% protein
Esbilac mixed with 1/2 part heavy cream and two parts water has 12.5%fat and 4.5% protein.

As you can see, it is still not exact, but a bit closer to what they need.

[Momma Squirrel]

Very good question and answer. This is the type of discussions I like to see on TSB, genuine people wanting to understand why one product is chosen over the other. Not that anyone is questioning that rehabber or per owner knows more than the other just wanting simple facts.

I often too was confused, we grew up always being told MILK is the answer to everything, strong bones, calcium just the God's drink to make you a healthy person. So it is hard to comprehend that you go to the cupboard pull out something powdered and mix it up and that is suppose to be better.

I for one am glad that these discussions come up so that we can all learn. But come up with adult content and not pointing fingers are lashing out at anyway.

Good job to you both :bowdown

[tanja]

Okay, I am guessing the right thing to do would be to switch the little one's to Esbilac? Since the protein, fat and carb contents come closer (a lot closer I admit) than cow's milk and I do want to do the best possible for their growth and health! The local pet store here has only the liquid. Is the powder mix better? Well, will check online, surely this can be ordered. Hope their little tummies don't throw a fit. Scared to do this. Pretty soon they'll wean off- is it worth it? Guess so. Sorry I am so critical. :hidechair

And what are those cookies and why are they needed?

Tanja :easter2

[Apple Corps]

tanja - glad you found the list helpful. The canned Esbilac should be fine - do keep us posted on how things are going.

[Nutz4squirrels2]

Thats what I'm talking about!!! Thank u Gabe for breaking it down abt cows milk! All I've ever used was cows milk cs its ALL I knew abt til I found TSB! Still wondered abt the dog milk but now I see. Tanja since they are close to weaning why can't u add heavy cream to boost it up some. Since u do not have it. Lets see what Gabe says. My squirrels did fine but if they can do better thats what I want. Thank u all........Happy Easter-HE has risen!!!

[tanja]

well, i do use joghurt and banana sometimes to boost up. but heard something bad about cream and did not consider it. this is frustrating. you read that and then this and then that. trying to figure out the best is really hard. gosh it is harder to raise a squirrel than anything. at least we are trying. scary part is those people (like one of my neighbours) who feed them only one type of food (or even something crazy like puppyfood (thats what one of my neighbours said-but he is old country !!:))
well, good thing we all got our own little brains.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

tanja, if you are talking about your neighbors feeding outside squirrels just one thing that is not so bad. Squirrels that live in the wild (outside)are very unique in that they will eat what they are lacking in their diets, in other words if we give all peanuts or all sunflower seeds they will eat other things to compensate and will be ok.
Where the trouble comes in is feeding a squirrel in captive just one thing, they have a strick diet what they need to get the vitamins ect...what they need.

[Gabe]

First, I don't know anything pro or con about the cookies.

You can use liquid or powder. Liquid is more expensive, and the unused needs to be discarded after a short time, don't remember if it is 48 or 72 hours. Or it can be frozen in ice cube trays and defrosted as needed. Just too messy and time consuming so I think that is why we always talk about powder.

I saw somebody jump in and say not to use heavy cream, but I believe she is new to raising squirrels and was relating it to not using milk.

I think even at this date I would go to Esbilac. Even though he is weaning, he will still be on it for some time and it will be worth it. When you are ready to use it, mix it up as instructed and add 1/4 to 3/4 of it to your scalded milk for a few feedings. Then go to half esbilac and half milk and so forth to make a gentle switch over and not traumatize their little systems.

[acorniv]

Here is the thing. I am getting very confused about these esbilac and scalded cows milk discussions. First of all, how come the little male, who when I got him looked pretty rough, tail not as fuzzy as his sisters and skinny is now thriving, now that he is on scalded milk? Should a male baby not be larger than his sister - well they looked the same at first, after she was with us she looks healthy and fuzzy tail and playful and all and he was a little mess? Guess considering that he was fed milk only once or twice a day and oatmeal bars did not help his growth (not by me, people before me!) I mean I just don't have a positive feeling about esbilac, its like processed food for my kids, just not good. Of course there is nothing that comes close to mama squirrels milk!! ALso esbilac is diluted, so does that not change the amount of protein, carbs and all those essential nutrients? Doesn't esbilac contain milk anyway???As long as they seem to thrive and behave like healthy squirrels what it the problem with milk? Sammy my big one jumps around in a seven by four foot cage and the room at times, and has fallen and had no problems. If I am not mistaken then MBD is not caused by Cows milk. (how could it be, it is calcium deficiency that causes it isn't it??? well, milks got enough of that). Yet, I hear this everywhere. Surely, those MBD cases are mainly due to poor nutrition. I do not believe that milk causes diarrhea or bloating (unless unheated!). That happens with esbilac just as well. I had problems with milk as a child - diarrhea and cramping every time - it was hell- was never gonna touch milk again. What did my grandmother do? She heated it - and I was fine. Back to Squirrels: One has to be very careful to feed slow and to tummy massage after meals- I found that out quick. I am open for all opinions (please respectfully). I am always open to learn. Surely ya'll will let me know that I am wrong soon. :))
And yeah, one rehabber wrote that milk is not the same as it was twenty so years ago. My question to that is: what in the world is still healthy nowadays in this world anyway???. Well, I think milk is better than something artificially and chemically produced. I have heard and read bad about either one: milk and esbilac. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you know what I mean. I guess discussions about that will never end. Fact is I respect rehabbers for what they do and know. That is one heck of a job. I just tend to question things. Never let my doctor treat me with what the thinks is best unless I gave it enough thougt and research. HA HA. :thinking
Tanja

I have not been around a lot the last couple of days. Tanja - I'm so glad to hear your new guy is doing better - great job :thumbsup

I also want to say thank you for keeping your mind on the goal of helping your charges and not taking the cow's milk/esbilac debate personally. I want you to know I did not bring it up to poke the tiger, but because you and I discussed it before (because we both started out on the same advice) and at the time you asked what was wrong with cow's milk. When I found the answer to that I was reminded that you had asked, and since you have the new babe who lost some time it seemed prudent to mention it.

I think the first time I became aware of how intricate the dietary needs are from one species to another when I read Errol Flynn's autobiography, of all things. His father was a zoologist in Tasmania and they took a shipload of animals to the London Zoo. Errol was along on the journey. They lost a large percentage before they got there because they fudged the diets. It's been 27 years since I read this book and I'll never forget his story about how he made a game of out of the fact that ducks are unable to digest pork fat!

Every Mom knows that human babies are not supposed to be given cow's milk or they can get very sick because of the difference in fat and protein contents. This changes once they are on solid food and their diet is fortified in other ways. It stands to reason the same would be true of any species, and that would also explain why formula for baby animals is made species specific, and why we have no universal baby formula. You can bet if it were possible to feed animals that way some company would have produced it, to savre packaging and marketing costs.

You are SO right. It is confusing, knowing what is right and who to believe in the rehab business. This is a BIG concern for me. There desperately needs to be One place where information is standardized and presented in a simple fashion so that when someone who has never rehabbed, finds a squirrel in bad shape they can go to ONE place and get ONE answer and not feel they are cast adrift on a tumultious sea of opinion.

Like you, I was confused at first by why cow's cream was okay and cow's milk was not, and why formula, which has cow's milk in it, would be okay, but regular milk was being called 'poisonous'. Several people use the term 'poison' when referring to using cow's milk for squirrels, and that is a confusing misnomer. Unless there is something I still don't understand, cow's milk is not a poison, but an unbalanced food that does not give our baby squirrels all they need, and gives them too much of some things they don't need much of. Milk isn't killing them but malnutrition could.

You made the comment that nothing is as pure and healthy as it was some years ago, so why single milk out? For one thing, dairy products are worse than other foods, in terms of what is in them that should not be there, and for another we're talking about feeding an animal that is already in distress and may not have extra reserves. If it is very young this will be its only food so you have one shot to get it right. For me, it isn't a qustion of what can we get away with, but of what is optimal.

Everything we ingest by eating or injections is passed on to our babies through our milk. Every medication label reminds us of this - "check with your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing". Everything the mother eats passes through and can affect the infant. My dd had digestive problems, and was lactose intolerant. Her ped and I felt it the benefits of my milk outweighed the downside, so we persevered, but I had to watch every bite of food I ate, and when I ate it. I can tell you exactly how much passes into milk because I saw immediate reactions when that happened. If I ate a single chocolate Kiss, I had to do it immediately afer feeding her, or pay the price by being up with a colicky baby all night. I avoided brocilli, citrus fruits and a number of other foods, including cow's milk producs ( chees was the worst) because they hurt her terribly.

Cows are pumped full of things no nursing mother would be allowed to take. They are given vast amounts hormones that make them produce more milk. Girls are going through puberty several years earlier than a generation ago and this is a suspected reason. Cows are also given massive doses of anitbiotics (it is cheaper than providing better conditions that will keep them healthier). Those antibiotics are affecting our own immune systems. There are other drugs too, plus fertilizer, pesticides, and rat posion and even other cows in the food that is fed to the cattle. Given this, milk from a carton is not a natural product, and is no better - possibly worse - for man or squirrel than formula.

Just so you know I don't work for the company that makes Esbilac, LOL, I'm struggling with this issue myself. I'm clear on the nutritional benefits of Esbilac, so that isn't the problem. My problem is my squirrel despises it. Possibly because she had milk first. I doctor it with cream and blackberry juice
( just berries, no sweetener) or she would not touch it and even then it is touch and go. I strongly suspect she is weaning earlier than she might because it tastes so bad to her. I think she'd take the cows milk more eagerly, because she did, before I learned that Esbilac was the food of choice for most rehabbers. I ONLY give her the Esbilac because I am concerned about cow's milk being an incomplete food for her. If there were a way to alter the milk to better match squirrel Mama, I would do that instead, so she'd eat better.

I hope that clears my position on this up for you. As for your squirrel, I should think that anything he gets would be better than he was getting before, so he probably is thriving by comparison to what he was.

About boys and girl, from what I have read the girls are larger than the boy squirrels, and can be more aggressive with each other. This is true in some other species too. Now that you'v got both you can watch and see and tell us what you think :)

[acorniv]

First, I don't know anything pro or con about the cookies.

You can use liquid or powder. Liquid is more expensive, and the unused needs to be discarded after a short time, don't remember if it is 48 or 72 hours. Or it can be frozen in ice cube trays and defrosted as needed. Just too messy and time consuming so I think that is why we always talk about powder.

I saw somebody jump in and say not to use heavy cream, but I believe she is new to raising squirrels and was relating it to not using milk.

I think even at this date I would go to Esbilac. Even though he is weaning, he will still be on it for some time and it will be worth it. When you are ready to use it, mix it up as instructed and add 1/4 to 3/4 of it to your scalded milk for a few feedings. Then go to half esbilac and half milk and so forth to make a gentle switch over and not traumatize their little systems.

Gabe, Some people have said the liquid formula is not the same as the powdered - the ingredients vary some. Have you heard that?

I know some people object to 'watering it down' but all milk has water in it, so ???.

Unless I am mistaken, it was Mars who said she would not add cream. She is not new to rehabbing and seems to be knowledgable about nutrition, so it would be interesting to hear her thoughts o this.

[acorniv]

tanja, if you are talking about your neighbors feeding outside squirrels just one thing that is not so bad. Squirrels that live in the wild (outside)are very unique in that they will eat what they are lacking in their diets, in other words if we give all peanuts or all sunflower seeds they will eat other things to compensate and will be ok.
Where the trouble comes in is feeding a squirrel in captive just one thing, they have a strick diet what they need to get the vitamins ect...what they need.

Actually, sunflower seeds fed to wild animals is a problem because they are addictive. Often animals that eat them will refuse to et anything else. This is true for birds as well as squirrels.

My avian vet had nothing good and a lot of bad to say about both sunflower seeds and peanuts. My parrot got sick and very nearly died of a calcium deficiency 20 years ago even though he had a varied diet and peanuts were the suspected culprit, even though he din't hav many. Peanuts will interfere with calcium absorption. I now wonder if he got enough sunglight too, but he was out for about a half hour to an hour every day. That may simply be too little.

[Gabe]

Gabe, Some people have said the liquid formula is not the same as the powdered - the ingredients vary some. Have you heard that?


Comparing liquid to powder is like comparing apples to oranges. The nutritional values on the powder are much higher. But that is based on dry matter before it has water added and becomes diluted.
The nutrtional values on the liquid are lower as it is based on wet matter with the water already added and is now ready to feed.

[tanja]

uh, boy them sunflowerseeds are addictive allright! I can't even stop! :))
Seriously! My daughter is addicted and I really have to watch that we run out of those dang things for a good while - just so much salt!!!
But I did mean squirrels fed poorly in captivity. One of my neighbours raised some years ago on puppyfood. That just shocked me. Then he let them go (maybe that saved them, allthough I do not want to meet those psycho squirrels raised on puppyfood :)).

ANyway, good discussions going on here.
It was me who thought cream was not a good idea. Read that somewhere. But yeah, I am new to this game. Sure would love to do something like this professionally. Always wanted to work with animals, just did not happen.

[acorniv]

uh, boy them sunflowerseeds are addictive allright! I can't even stop! :))
Seriously! My daughter is addicted and I really have to watch that we run out of those dang things for a good while - just so much salt!!!
But I did mean squirrels fed poorly in captivity. One of my neighbours raised some years ago on puppyfood. That just shocked me. Then he let them go (maybe that saved them, allthough I do not want to meet those psycho squirrels raised on puppyfood :)).

ANyway, good discussions going on here.
It was me who thought cream was not a good idea. Read that somewhere. But yeah, I am new to this game. Sure would love to do something like this professionally. Always wanted to work with animals, just did not happen.

I'd like to do professional rehabbing too, but with kids, one of whom brings home human strays, I have to be realistic:D Man, if you think people abuse animals, you should hear what they do with their own kids - our current human rehab showed up because her parents are getting a divorce and they are blaming her. That is bad enough, but she just overheard her dad saying they shouldn't have taken her back. She then discovered she was given up for adoption once and they snatched her back just as adoption was about to finalize. How do you tell a kid she is going to be alright after that?:soapbox

Gimme puppy food any day over that...:shakehead

Your dd may need the salt. 1/4 of people need to watch their intake, but 3/4 of us do not and some of us need extra. My dh has SUCH a hard time accepting this, because he and his dad are two who need to limit their intake and the media and advertisers make such a fuss about lowering salt intake that everyne is tryng to cut back. Not that that prepared food isn't loaded down wiht it, but if you don't dop a lot of that then she may need salt.

I'm probably an extreme example of someone who does, because I get heat prostration easily and I pass out from standing up too quickly, or standing in line too long etc. I eat salted things or take salt tabs for that. It runs in my family - I had a great aunt who died from heat stroke while riding on a hot bus, so we take it seriously. If your dd is craving salt, ask her if she ever feels faint when she stands up fast or stands too long in line. You can have her checked to see if salt intake is a bad idea for her, but be aware that very few doctors are aware of the opposite problem and some have come to view all salt as bad. If she has high blood pressure she needs to reduce her salt intake, but if it is low she may need to increase it.

Lots of teens get into a chewing thing too - you might see about healthier things she could chew ( carrot sticks are one) or other souces of salt, if her fixation is the chewing - I think my high school was covered wiht sunflower seed shells for that reason, LOL.

Laurel

[acorniv]

Comparing liquid to powder is like comparing apples to oranges. The nutritional values on the powder are much higher. But that is based on dry matter before it has water added and becomes diluted.
The nutrtional values on the liquid are lower as it is based on wet matter with the water already added and is now ready to feed.
Comparing liquid to powder is like comparing apples to oranges. The nutritional values on the powder are much higher. But that is based on dry matter before it has water added and becomes diluted.
The nutritional values on the liquid are lower as it is based on wet matter with the water already added and is now ready to feed.

Not apples and oranges - apples and dehydrated apples. The only difference between the two should be water. Are you saying that when rehabbers say the fluid version is not as good they are not adjusting for water??? I can't believe anyone who is doing this regularly would make such a mistake:shakehead . Matter of fact, I can't believe anyone over the age of ten would not know that you have to adjust for water. You seem to think I needed to have this explained, so, in your experience, do people not do that?

Somewhere I read that the liquid form is a bad idea because it was too high in something, and if they are the same once the powder is reconstituted that would not be :thinking .

I have not read the label of the fluid version, having been told right off the bat to only buy the powdered. The powdered is labeled 33% protein and 40% fat, which are obviously way too high for dog or squirrel, so obviously dry measurements, not reconstituted.

To rephrase my question, are the values *when prepared for serving* the same or not? It may sound like a dumb question but I have read they are different.

In the list I posted from Borden, it didn't specify, but it had to be fully constituted because the numbers were too low to be concentrated. They may be from an outdated chart though:thinking .

This is an example of what I find unnecesarily confusing about the whole issue of feeding an orphan animal. I'm sure many a squirel dies before it's helper gets it right.:shakehead

[Gabe]

I can't speak for other rehabbers, but to the best of my knowledge liquid and powder are both acceptable forms of the same formula. Baby formula also comes powdered or liquid. Neither one is better than the other, just sold in different forms.

[GhosTS]

As far as I know liquid and powdered formula is very different.Even in the same brand.Powdered form is the best.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Sunflower seeds are ok for outside squirrels, also peanuts. Squirrels will eat other things to make up for the lack in their diets. It is the squirrels in captivity that cannot have the above. The rehabber I work under feeds 100% sunflower seeds nothing else no nuts.

[Gabe]

As far as I know liquid and powdered formula is very different.Even in the same brand.Powdered form is the best.


Thanks for your input. Do you happen to have the nutritional values of these? That would help answer all of our questions.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Esbilac Powdered
Ingredients: Vegetable Oil, Casein, Whey Protein Concentrate, Butter Fat, Dried Skimmed Milk, Egg Yolk, Monocalcium Phosphate, Lactose, Calcium Carbonate, L-arginine , Lechithin, DL-methionine, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Potassium Phosphate Monobasic, Magnesium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Phosphate Dibasic, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Dipotassium Phosphate, Silico Aluminate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Folic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, and Mono and
Diglycerides.

Nutritional Information:

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein 33.0% Min

Crude Fiber 0.0% Max

Crude Fat 40.0% Min

Ash 7.75% Max

Moisture 5.0% Max


Esbilac Liquid
Ingredients: Water, Skimmed Milk, Soy Oil, Sodium Caseinate, Butter, Egg Yolk, Calcium Caseinate, L-methionine, L-arginine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Magnesium Sulfate, Mono-Potassium Phosphate, Salt, Tri-Calcium Phosphate, Carrageenan, Dipotassium Phosphate, Di-Calcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacinamide, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Citrate, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Phytonadione (Source of Vitamin K), Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Nutritional Information:
Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein 33.0% Min

Crude Fiber 0.0% Max

Crude Fat 40.0% Min

Ash 7.75% Max

Moisture 5.0% Max

[Gabe]

Rippie you're AWESOME!!!!:thumbsup


:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou

[TexanSquirrel]

:thumbsup :thankyou :goodpost

[acorniv]

Very interesting! Thank you R&L :)

I'm surprised by how different they are. Now I REALLY wonder why some rehabbers say the liuid is not as good - aside from the waste/cost issues, of course.

Okay, all you chemists and dieticians - what do you say?

:wave123