3-month old squirrel has not weaned, nutrition?

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody,

I found a baby squirrel in my parking lot at work 2 1/2 months ago. I consider him my luckiest find. Anyway, after a lot of reading around online, I wasn't sold on Esbilac and fed him scalded half and half with liquid Vitamins D and E, and a good spoonful of plain yogurt added in. Sprinkles did very well on this formula, and is now a young squirrel.

However, I'm having some trouble getting him weaned. Also, now that he has been on formula for so long, I'm worried about his nutrition. Here's what's going on...

For the last several weeks, I regularly offer him broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, strawberries, grapes, bananas, organic baby food (pureed fruits and vegs, nothing at all added), but he refuses all. I was thrilled when he ate a raspberry and an almond, but he definitely did not transition away from his formula, though he went from 3 to 2 feedings a day. I have ordered Henry's blocks and also the Picky blocks, but they are not here yet.

His teeth grew in with the lowers in front of the uppers. I trimmed all successfully last week (God bless Mary, who put a video on YouTube) and gave him some good chew material, which he likes and does chew.

Maybe because his teeth were interfering with his eating, he has seemed a bit weak. However, in the last few days I thought I saw him arch back in a way that made me think he was having a seizure. After this happened about three times, I got on this board and found out about MDB. I immediately fed him a crushed Tums glued with honey (could only get him to eat half), and he seemed to perk up more than he had in several days.

Following that, I immediately made a fresh batch of formula and added in a good deal of powdered calcium (the formula makes up about 1C, and I added 3000mg powdered calcium, which also contains a little vitamin D) with a little bit of honey, in case it was a glucose issue. He ate his regular mealtime amount and seemed to like it quite well. He does seem a little stronger and more active, but is still "off".

Am I doing the right things? What should I do? What is he missing? How can I wean him?

Also, how in the heck can he have a calcium deficiency when his diet is mostly half and half and yogurt (with liquid Vitamin D, so he can absorb it)?

I haven't spent a lot of words describing his loving, intelligent, sweet and adorable personality, but he is indeed a little treasure and I love him very much. Any help and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,
Deborah and Sprinkles

P.S. I'm sorry about the large attachment. I tried to get rid of it, but it won't go away!

[Unikorngrrl]

Oh dear. Hi :wave123 and :Welcome to TSB!!! You have come to the right place for help. There are going to be lots of changes that most of us had to learn when we got here too so please understand we've all been here, and I'm not trying to be ugly at all!! First, we don't recommend that you ever wean a squirrel. You let them wean themselves if they ever do. Or when it's time for release and he's way to small for that.

2nd, here is the link to the healthy diet information. He shouldnot be getting fruit AT ALL. It holds no nutritional value for a squirrel, and it makes them not want to eat their healthy stuff. The half and half that he is on is NOT AT ALL GOOD FOR HIM. You should immediately change to either Esbilac or Fox Valley. He's going to need to build his nutrition up badly. if you don't change him to something with proper nutrition you will very likely end up with a very sick squirrel very soon. Henryspets.com sells Fox Valley and since he's about 3 months old you should get the Day One 20/50. While you're ordering that you should go ahead and buy the Henry's Healthy Blocks for squirrels. Growth Formula. That is the first and only food he should be getting. After he is eating those VERY well, not shredding but eating them, you can start with green leafy vegetables from the healthy diet pyramind. I'll get you the link. After eating the HHBs and green veggies really well you can try other veggies. Fruit and nuts will be ONLY a treat. One small piece of fruit and/or 1 nut a day is what we recommend here. Squirrels need a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio to prevent Metabolic Bone Disease. It's a very painful disease caused by a lack of calcium that will inevitably kill the squirrel if diet is not corrected. Nuts are high in phosphorus and cancel out any calcium intake if overfed. Vitamin D is also required in the diet to allow calcium absorption. So you should stop the fruit immediately, change to a healthy baby formula, and stop trying to wean. Read, read, read, here about nutrition and care!! It will help you get this guy healthy and keep him that way!! Though you may not be able to see it yet, there is already damage done from the lack of nutrition provided by the milk mixture that you have been feeding.

Healthy Diet Pyramid: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?39275-Healthy-Diet-for-Pet-Squirrels-(Revised-2-13)

Calcium to Phosphorus ratio guide: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?15397-Food-Data-Chart-Update-Calcium-to-Phosphorus-Ratios

[Duckman]

OMG! He is just Teddy Bear adorable!!! :Love_Icon:Love_Icon:Love_Icon (I seem to say adorable a lot here lately!!! :grin3 It must be that I love all squirrels!!!) :thumbsup:Love_Icon:thumbsup

Edit - Now for the serious stuff (I just couldn't get over how cute he was, and went back to read the post!), how often do you feed him? It might be that you are feeding him too often, and so he doesn't get hungry between meals, and isn't trying other things "to snack" on. This could also lead up to him not wanting to ween off, because he is always "topped off" full.

[Scooterzmom]

Hi and welcome to TSB.

Your baby is just gorgeous!!! :Love_Icon but yes, his diet is in dire need of correction. I strongly advise you to check the nutrition pyramid and start with that. You've been offered great advice, please take it. Everyone here has your baby's welfare at heart.

Re. the calcium tablet: be careful, discontinue that one with the vitamin D included in it. The amount of vitamin D included in the calcium tablets is for humans and those levels can be toxic for squirrels. You should get calcium tablets instead, no vitamin D in it. He can get his vitamin D in other ways - sunshine and/or diet. Most importantly: do change that formula! The scalded milk is a true way to MBD. Please get him on Fox Valley. As you were told, there already is some damage done from the regular scalded milk but you cannot see it yet. By the time you see the symptoms of MBD the squirrel is already in very deep trouble and already at risk of dying... so please don't wait til he shows symptoms to correct this.

One suggestion to get him to eat his Henry's blocks: offer them and nothing else first thing in the morning and wait til he has eaten them to offer him his other food. Soon enough he'll take a liking to them and you will have no problem. I give mine their blocks just before I go to bed (I'm a night owl, so that's very late at night/early morning) and when they wake up, since they have no choice and do not get their food til lunchtime, they eat their blocks without any fuss.

[farrelli]

Yes, follow the diet chart, don't wean, no more D, and I didn;t see anyone say to stop the current formula. Cow milk is terrible. Order the FV but until that arrives, you can get Esbilac puppy formula THE NEW KIND WITH PROBIOTICS (the old kind is bad) at many pet stores, or you can use our temp formula replacement below:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?29903-Do-NOT-USE-ESBILAC!-**TEMPORARY-Goat-s-Milk-Formula***

[CrazySquirrelLady]

good job Farrelli

[farrelli]

Also, I see you have him outside. We STRONGLY recommend that squirrels never be allowed outside before being prepared for release, and it sounds like your guy might be unreleasable. They can get spooked and run off, or get lost, or whatever, never to return and probably to find a bad end. We have seen A LOT of heartbreak in this regard over the years. Lots of people think that their squirrel is special and would never do this, until it happens. :(

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody - thank you very much for the kind replies.

Can someone please explain the right amount of vitamin D? It seems there is conflicting information out there, and even in the replies below, some of which say he must have it, and some of which say he must not...

DO they need it at all? I have read many resources online saying they must have it to absorb calcium if they do NOT have access to sun. My squirrel has access only to indirect sunlight.

If they DO need it, how much is the right amount?

What are symptoms of Vitamin D toxicity in squirrels? Maybe this is the problem, and not calcium deficiency. I've been including 1000iu (liquid squeezed out of a small gel capsule) per cup of formula. This means he has been getting about 100iu a day.

Also, I can move my squirrel onto Fox Valley formula or goat's milk and the *new* Esbilac, but I want to understand why. WHY is the scalded half and half bad? The recipe for the emergency goat's milk formula just replaced scalded half and half with goat's milk, and then added milk back in the form of heavy cream -- and seems, according to the post -- to actually be better for young squirrels than just the new Esbilac, which suggests cow's milk may be better after all. What is the difference, nutritionally, in using goat's milk and/or Esbilac INSTEAD of scalded milk or half and half? I have not found a specific answer on this ("it's closer to squirrel nutrition" is not specific at all and would receive a very poor grade if submitted for a science report).

Please bear with me as I'm not trying to start a debate, but the debate was already there and the information about WHY the scalded milk is bad and WHY Esbilac and/or goat's milk is the better choice is sparse.

To address a couple of the concerns in the replies...

Outdoors: Though my squirrel is outdoors in the picture, the picture does not show the 8-foot high concrete wall enclosing my small porch (the reason the porch gets no sun). He is only allowed out when I am right there supervising him, and mostly he is busy eating dirt. :)

Food Pyramid: I have reviewed this several times, but it's a bit of a moot point. He won't eat solid foods except the one raspberry and the one almond - in his life, not per day. When he is fully on solids, I will definitely follow the advice of "fruits and nuts only as treats given very sparingly, after they eat their block and vegetables!"

Blocks: I ordered Henry's blocks. They are not here yet. I expect he will refuse them, especially since he doesn't eat breakfast anyway, but I've read some good posts on TSB about how to make them more irresistible.

Topped Off: This sounds possible. When I first found him I fed him 4x a day, then a few weeks ago he began to refuse the first feeding (making it 3x), now he again refuses the first feeding (making it 2x). He just doesn't seem hungry enough to switch, but at the same time, he is lighter than I think he should be.

Kind and grateful regards,
Deborah


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[farrelli]

Very rushed. Didn't read the whole thing. Vitamin D is necessary for calcium absorption, but sqs are very sensitive to it, so too much is toxic. Professional exterminators used it in high concentrations as a rodenticide. They normally get it from the sun, but that's not workable for indoor squirrels. As long as they have a quality rodent block or formula, they get all they need.

Cow milk is bad because it's hard to digest. Even in humans, only those with a cultural history of dairy farming have selected for the gene to break it down properly. This is why you won't see hardly any dairy in, for example, an asian market. They have no such history and so can't digest it well. Improper digestion not only causes various forms of malnutrition, but also can cause GI upset. Scalding it halps break it down some, but it's not perfect. FV and Esbilac are specifically formulated to be digested well, and goat's milk has a very small molecular footprint and is digested quite readily by almost any mammal. This is why it's the go-to formula in zoos all over the world. It's great if you don't have a specialized formula available.

[sdreamcatcher]

In reply to scalded milk, and cow's milk in general:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?29552-Scalded-cow-s-milk&highlight=scalded+milk

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?5842-STOP!-NEVER-FEED-COW-S-MILK-TO-BABY-SQUIRRELS!

Cow's milk doesn't have the proper nutrients to sustain a baby squirrel; in essence they slowly starve to death. You said he seems too light? I am not familiar with baby greys and not sure if you posted his age, but he does looks small; hopefully someone with more experience in that department can advise. Do you know his weight in grams?

Move him to this formula if you can't find the esbilac with probiotics:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?29904-TEMPORARY-Goat-s-Milk-Formula***

STOP giving scalded milk. It does not take long once they do get sick to go downhill fast. He may seem healthy but it will eventually kill him. Goat's milk is easier to digest and closer to what they need nutritionally (with the other ingredients listed). I raised some of my kids on it until I could get the fox valley formula and they all thrived.

RE: The vitamin D I would say no supplementing AT ALL. He will get what he needs in the proper formula, and later with the blocks.

Don't have him outside unconfined. These guys are quick and if spooked he may take off. Not worth the risk. He will need to be overwintered then can be slow released in the spring.

[sdreamcatcher]

Very rushed. Didn't read the whole thing. Vitamin D is necessary for calcium absorption, but sqs are very sensitive to it, so too much is toxic. Professional exterminators used it in high concentrations as a rodenticide. They normally get it from the sun, but that's not workable for indoor squirrels. As long as they have a quality rodent block or formula, they get all they need.

Cow milk is bad because it's hard to digest. Even in humans, only those with a cultural history of dairy farming have selected for the gene to break it down properly. This is why you won't see hardly any dairy in, for example, an asian market. They have no such history and so can't digest it well. Improper digestion not only causes various forms of malnutrition, but also can cause GI upset. Scalding it halps break it down some, but it's not perfect. FV and Esbilac are specifically formulated to be digested well, and goat's milk has a very small molecular footprint and is digested quite readily by almost any mammal. This is why it's the go-to formula in zoos all over the world. It's great if you don't have a specialized formula available.


:goodpost:goodpost

[farrelli]

Other points, the concrete wall may as not be there, he can scale it. Please don't take him outside if you care about him.

Cream, it's a way to introduce fat and sqs have a high fat requirement. It isn't as bad as undigestable as milk, but it can cause GI upset on its own. This is why it's introduced after a few feedigns without it, and ideally gradually.

D, here's a link on toxicity. It doesn't sound like you've given him too much, but it is fat soluable and stored in the liver, so it builds up over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D

[SammysMom]

:Welcometo TSB. You are getting all the right advice here from many experienced members who you need to trust. I realize that you want to ask questions and understand the whys about the changes, but if you don't make those changes now that baby is not going to do well and may pass away. Goats milk is the most versatile milk for any mammal. It can be given to human babies also. The only reason that the cream is added is to add fat as goats milk is not as high a fat content as squirrel milk is. The yogurt is for fat and also for probiotics.
Do you still have the Esbilac formula you tried at first? If it is unopened or is powder that has been in the fridge and it is the one that says "with probiotics" somewhere on the can, use it.
I sound pushy and I am being pushy. If you want this baby to do well and be healthy, you need to take the advice that is given and take it right away.
A week ago I buried a baby that was "doing great" on human formula after having him for 20 minutes. THe finders did not understand why it wasn't okay to use the formula and didn't follow the protocol I gave them. Then, when he became ill they called me again and were willing to give him to me. All I had with him was 20 minutes and he passed. Please take this advice and stop using half and half. It will kill him.

[farrelli]

One more thing, if he won't eat the blocks (what kind did you get? Growth?), we can give you tips on how to make that happen. He NEEDS to be consuming either blocks or formula, and if he won't eat either, too bad. You'll have to use tough love and give him nothing until he eats those blocks (or something made of them). We've seen it a million times. They won't starve themselves. The reluctance is why we advise people to not give any other food but blocks and formula until they are happily eating their blocks, THEN other foods are introduced.

Bad nutrition is the cause of probably most of the problems we see here, so getting this right is super important.

[Duckman]

I am going to take on the Scalded milk question, since it is the one that I know well. The anatomy of a squirrel and a human are vastly different. We have certain enzymes and bacteria in our stomachs, which allow us to break down the fats and proteins in cows milk, and absorb the different nutrients, while not allowing toxins in the milk to be absorbed. Squirrels on the other hand, can't flush out the toxins in cows milk and don't have the ability to absorb the fats. This is why squirrels slowly die from Cows Milk.

With my Rex, in order to ensure he has the ability to convert calcium to Vitamin D (Squirrel biology has that unique gift!) I put in a reptile sun lamp over his cage and have to change it out every 6-8 months. I still have him on the Squirrel Block too, to ensure he gets all of the other nutrients that healthy squirrels need. I am actually really lucky, because before I came to The Squirrel Board, I fed Rex mainly Nuts, and Fresh Veggies, and I believe the only thing that kept him from getting MBD was that sun lamp. I am sure he would not be here today, if I hadn't done that one thing!

None of us here at TSB work for Fox Valley, nor does anyone here receive anything from them for recommending the formula. Our only motive is to ensure your sweet little guy gets the best care and nutrition possible. As cute as he is, he is also severely underweight (which makes him look so much cuter) and really does need help. I can tell from your posts you truely care, and please believe that we also truely care as well! As a rehabber, I have lost squirrels in the past, due to my own mistakes or lack of certain knowledge, and we only want to ensure you don't lose one, due to a mistake or lack of certain knowledge. :grouphug

[farrelli]

To clarify, seeing that I've seen it here a couple times, calcium does not convert to vitamin D. D and magnesium are required for calcium absorption. Without these on board, no calcium is absorbed.


I am going to take on the Scalded milk question, since it is the one that I know well. The anatomy of a squirrel and a human are vastly different. We have certain enzymes and bacteria in our stomachs, which allow us to break down the fats and proteins in cows milk, and absorb the different nutrients, while not allowing toxins in the milk to be absorbed. Squirrels on the other hand, can't flush out the toxins in cows milk and don't have the ability to absorb the fats. This is why squirrels slowly die from Cows Milk.

With my Rex, in order to ensure he has the ability to convert calcium to Vitamin D (Squirrel biology has that unique gift!) I put in a reptile sun lamp over his cage and have to change it out every 6-8 months. I still have him on the Squirrel Block too, to ensure he gets all of the other nutrients that healthy squirrels need. I am actually really lucky, because before I came to The Squirrel Board, I fed Rex mainly Nuts, and Fresh Veggies, and I believe the only thing that kept him from getting MBD was that sun lamp. I am sure he would not be here today, if I hadn't done that one thing!

None of us here at TSB work for Fox Valley, nor does anyone here receive anything from them for recommending the formula. Our only motive is to ensure your sweet little guy gets the best care and nutrition possible. As cute as he is, he is also severely underweight (which makes him look so much cuter) and really does need help. I can tell from your posts you truely care, and please believe that we also truely care as well! As a rehabber, I have lost squirrels in the past, due to my own mistakes or lack of certain knowledge, and we only want to ensure you don't lose one, due to a mistake or lack of certain knowledge. :grouphug

[squirrellove89]

try mixing a lil baby food veggies in the formula he will adjust to taste.

cows milk is not even really good for humans but more simply put u wouldnt feed a human baby squirrel milk lol

i know all this info is overwhelming and your probably sitting there thinking these people are crazy this way totally works for me but all these people really care about squirrels and have wonderful success rates raising them. trust them they are great people who really want to help you do whats best there is lots of misinformation out there but here is where u will get the correct info and they have proven it over and over. sometimes what they say can come off as a bit pushy but thats only because they have seen countless babies die from pointless mistakes but they really do care and want to help you :grin2

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody -

Does anyone have the answer to how much Vitamin D is too much?

Reading around online, Vitamin D toxicity shows the same symptoms as MDB.

I am getting some Esbilac tonight and FV formula ordered this morning (has to ship), but I feel an important point has been missed here. This squirrel did great on scalded half and half with vitamin E and D plus yogurt for three months. He does not have diarrhea. He is clearly not starving to death. In some ways, this board appears to be giving out inaccurate information, even if scalded milk is not the best formula. It does seem to me to be an acceptable formula, as long as it is not actually lowfat milk with nothing - no vitamins or yogurt - added.

My main problem is weaning. 3+ months on formula has been a worry - it seems from some replies, that this is ok, so I won't worry about that any more. My secondary problem is he is lethargic. Since giving him a LOT of extra calcium as of yesterday, he is a lot more active - and maybe this IS because of the scalded milk, but it could instead or also be because of excessive Vitamin D added. I'm concerned that the lethargy could be caused by, not calcium deficiency, but Vitamin D toxicity, since the symptoms apparently are the same.

I do not now know and can not find anywhere after searching all morning how much Vitamin D is toxic for squirrels. I don't want to stop giving him Vitamin D if he needs it (since he gets no direct sun), but I can't tell if he's had too much, in which case he should obviously not have more. I do not want to make the wrong adjustment here. Everywhere I've read that you should give your squirrel Vitamin D gives no specific amount, and some say, "just open and add a liquid gel cap", which I did. But what I had on hand was 1000 iu per gel cap.

Please note I am following the advice given to me, for which I thank everyone (especially farelli). I will look into getting a sun lamp for him, too (thank you Duckman), which may eliminate the Vitamin D issue altogether, but I would rather solve the Vitamin D issue.

Kind regards,
Deborah

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[sdreamcatcher]

Hi everybody -

Does anyone have the answer to how much Vitamin D is too much?

Reading around online, Vitamin D toxicity shows the same symptoms as MDB.

I am getting some Esbilac tonight and FV formula ordered this morning (has to ship), but I feel an important point has been missed here. This squirrel did great on scalded half and half with vitamin E and D plus yogurt for three months. He does not have diarrhea. He is clearly not starving to death. In some ways, this board appears to be giving out inaccurate information, even if scalded milk is not the best formula. It does seem to me to be an acceptable formula, as long as it is not actually lowfat milk with nothing - no vitamins or yogurt - added.

My main problem is weaning. 3+ months on formula has been a worry - it seems from some replies, that this is ok, so I won't worry about that any more. My secondary problem is he is lethargic. Since giving him a LOT of extra calcium as of yesterday, he is a lot more active - and maybe this IS because of the scalded milk, but it could instead or also be because of excessive Vitamin D added. I'm concerned that the lethargy could be caused by, not calcium deficiency, but Vitamin D toxicity, since the symptoms apparently are the same.

I do not now know and can not find anywhere after searching all morning how much Vitamin D is toxic for squirrels. I don't want to stop giving him Vitamin D if he needs it (since he gets no direct sun), but I can't tell if he's had too much, in which case he should obviously not have more. I do not want to make the wrong adjustment here. Everywhere I've read that you should give your squirrel Vitamin D gives no specific amount, and some say, "just open and add a liquid gel cap", which I did. But what I had on hand was 1000 iu per gel cap.

Please note I am following the advice given to me, for which I thank everyone (especially farelli). I will look into getting a sun lamp for him, too (thank you Duckman), which may eliminate the Vitamin D issue altogether, but I would rather solve the Vitamin D issue.

Kind regards,
Deborah

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The one thing that may have saved him is that you gave him half scalded milk and half esbilac. BUT you do NOT need to supplement vitamin D! It is in the esbilac. It is in the formula we are advising. It is in the blocks you just ordered (specifically formulated for squirrels).

Yes he has seemingly thrived on what you have fed. But isn't he now "arching his back" and "lethargic"? Something isn't quite right to make you come here to begin with? Is this the first squirrel you have raised? How much does he weigh (grams) and how old is he?

Stop supplementing. The only vitamin D issue I can see with him is overdosing; remember it is a fat soluble vitamin and extra gets stored; very good possibility that over the last three months that he appears to have been thriving this has been happening. Feed the goat's milk formula or esbilac with probiotics or the fv. Offer him blocks in between formula feedings. He will probably just dismantle them in the beginning; that is ok. Eventually he will eat them.

I understand your need to question. BUT you came here because he was showing some disturbing symptoms that made you wonder if you are doing all you can for him. I have raised 8 babies; my first baby would not have made it if I hadn't followed the advice given here, by people who have raised literally hundreds (if not more). Mine are living wild now; healthy, chunky, happy little buggers because of this site.

[SammysMom]

Believe me, I am NOT criticizing you for your error in feeding. My Sammy survived despite me, NOT because of me, until I found TSB after he began showing signs of MBD after weaning way too early and me feeding a terrible diet. I guess, as with humans, getting out nutrition is done through our healthy diet. There is no need to supplement Vitamin D if he is eating a proper diet.
We on TSB may be wrong on a thing or two, but diet is not one of those things. It has been debated and argued endlessly and it always ends up that the diet that is subscribed to here is right. Although a child might be able to survive for a year eating nothing but Snickers bars, inside he would not be healthy. He might be alive, but he would not be healthy. You now have the correct information, so he will be on the road to recovery before you know it.
One of the most difficult things about dealing with prey animals is that they have an innate ability to conceal any disability in order to not be seen as the weakest and therefore someone's dinner. That is why we are often not able to see it when they begin to suffer the consequences of a poor diet.

[ALittleNutty]

Your baby will get some vitamin D from the sun if you place him outside on your enclosed patio in his cage. He doesn't need to be directly in the light and even sunlight through a window is okay as long as it doesn't have a coating that filters out the rays. It's much better if they get the needed nutrients through diet instead of supplementing.

[farrelli]

Vitamin D toxicity - see my posts, especially #21, in the following thread.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?38763-Discussion-thread-Emergency-MBD-Protocol-Revisions

Don't have the time to do the math right now, but I don't think you're at toxic levels yet.

Your symptoms might be neuro, maybe stemming from lead poisoning (see your chew toy thread), maybe due to lack of nutrition, maybe MBD. I don't know, but your best bet is just to follow what you've been told as this is THE resource for squirrels on the net. There may be some debate about certain topics (as you would see in the above thread) but about diet there is overall consensus.

[farrelli]

Btw, if you Google cholecalciferol and rodenticide, somewhere in there you will find what I found regarding the work done by pesticide companies in regard to D.

[Duckman]

To clarify, seeing that I've seen it here a couple times, calcium does not convert to vitamin D. D and magnesium are required for calcium absorption. Without these on board, no calcium is absorbed.

Once again, I am reminded that old dogs do take a while to learn new tricks. I do actually know that Calcium does not convert, but I operated so many years with this misconception. I apologize and will go back to my corner to try to drill it into my thick skull some more! The UV lamp helps the Vitamin D and Magnesium absorb and metabilize the calcium! Phew! Thank you Farrelli, for the reminder. Hopefully this is the last time I need it! :bowdown

[Anne]

If this squirrel was raised on scalded milk formula, you were very fortunate not to lose (kill) him. These pictures were taken by a rehabber in 2001, before Fox Valley and when Esbilac was the go to formula. This is why we say: STOP-NEVER FEED COW'S MILK TO SQUIRRELS!

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[deborah0302]

The one thing that may have saved him is that you gave him half scalded milk and half esbilac. BUT you do NOT need to supplement vitamin D! It is in the esbilac. It is in the formula we are advising. It is in the blocks you just ordered (specifically formulated for squirrels).

Yes he has seemingly thrived on what you have fed. But isn't he now "arching his back" and "lethargic"? Something isn't quite right to make you come here to begin with? Is this the first squirrel you have raised? How much does he weigh (grams) and how old is he?

Stop supplementing. The only vitamin D issue I can see with him is overdosing; remember it is a fat soluble vitamin and extra gets stored; very good possibility that over the last three months that he appears to have been thriving this has been happening. Feed the goat's milk formula or esbilac with probiotics or the fv. Offer him blocks in between formula feedings. He will probably just dismantle them in the beginning; that is ok. Eventually he will eat them.

I understand your need to question. BUT you came here because he was showing some disturbing symptoms that made you wonder if you are doing all you can for him. I have raised 8 babies; my first baby would not have made it if I hadn't followed the advice given here, by people who have raised literally hundreds (if not more). Mine are living wild now; healthy, chunky, happy little buggers because of this site.

I think you've misread my post. For the first three months of his life he did not have Esbilac AT ALL, he had ONLY scalded milk. He is getting Esbilac NOW.

[deborah0302]

If this squirrel was raised on scalded milk formula, you were very fortunate not to lose (kill) him. These pictures were taken by a rehabber in 2001, before Fox Valley and when Esbilac was the go to formula. This is why we say: STOP-NEVER FEED COW'S MILK TO SQUIRRELS!

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Thank you, but as you can see from my pictures, whatever these poor little guys in your pics were fed is clearly not what my baby was fed. There is a big difference between "scalded milk" by itself, especially if it is lowfat or nonfat, and scalded whole milk or half and half with vitamins E and D and a spoon of plain yogurt added. This is why I am saying, to say "scalded milk will kill your squirrel, you MUST use whatever else" is not accurate and is misinformation. Additionally, Esbilac has had problems too - as I have seen from other posts on this board, and even in the warnings in replies to my original post, saying to ONLY use the Esbilac that has "probiotics added", because the prior formula, which is still on store shelves as I saw last night at PetCo, was actually harmful.

[deborah0302]

Okay everybody, thanks for your help.

Farelli, thank you especially.

I would like to remark that while the help is great and is much appreciated (and I am following the advice), many, MANY people did not actually read my posts, but reacted to just one sentence and gave me either bad advice, conflicting advice, or advice I can not use. That's okay - it's still help, but it was really hard to wade through it.

What is not okay was implying that I do not care about my squirrel if I do not immediately follow advice that is, as above, conflicting or impossible (or attacking me because I asked questions). For instance, I can not put my squirrel in the sun in lieu of giving him Vitamin D. There is no direct sun in my yard or windows, and this was in a post, but instead of answering the Vitamin D issue, which is important and worrisome, more people replied telling me to put him in the sun.

I'm very worried about the advice to give my squirrel Esbilac. This board has many posts recommending it, and even in this post, it says it's only okay if it's the kind that has probiotics - although the kind that does not looks almost identical and is still available on shelves at PetCo as of last night.

Finally, I think it is very wrong to condemn and attack me for giving my squirrel the scalded milk recipe. I am worried about his health, but if anyone had read my posts all the way through, there are several possible reasons for this issue - too much Vitamin D being one, weakness from hunger because of his teeth growing too long and in the wrong place was another. The picture of the starving tiny squirrels was awful, but my squirrel OBVIOUSLY does not look like that and I think that was totally unnecessary. It was not "luck" that he didn't starve. It was because I added the Vitamins E and D and yogurt, and used half and half instead of some nonfat or lowfat or whatever was in the fridge. He has been very active and healthy for the most part.

I am glad to now have the good advice, but I think it may be the last time I will ask for it here. There is good information here, but I felt like I was going to be lynched in several of the replies. And I still do not know how much Vitamin D is okay, and whether to stop or continue giving it to my little guy. I also still have no direct sun to put him in, LOL.

Thank you again. I know everyone here cares about squirrels, including my squirrel, and wants to help. It would be nice if everyone would remember that the other person on the other side of the computer screen is a real person who is worried, who cares about their squirrel. I wish you all well.

Kind regards,
Deborah

[farrelli]

Deborah0302, it's hard not to snip at people. We've just seen it all a million times and everyone thinks they're special and deserves a ton of hand holding. That's very hard to do. We don't get paid for this and we all have real lives and real jobs. I work a min of 14 hours a day. There are a ton of people here all wanting help and not all of them can get the time and detail you demand. We're just trying to help squirrels here. If you think that TSB could be better, PLEASE, stay around and join the few of us who are continually frazzled trying to carve out a little time to save these little guys. If you have the time to handhold and such, again, PLEASE join us! We are few and we are overworked. If you can take some of the load off, perhaps we will have more time to be pleasant. Several people have complained as you have, but none of them ever seem to try to pitch in and make it better.

Also, you have to remember that TSB is just random folks. Everyone has their own approach, and just like in any other online forum, there will be people far more brusk than others. That's just the way things are. Even if I had the time to be otherwise, my nature is to be very direct and no nonsense. For some people that works, for some not.

[SammysMom]

The vitamin D answer is that you do not need to supplement it if you are following the healthy diet including either formula and/or rodent blocks. Particularly if you use HHBs from Henry's as Leigh did the science when developing them and they contain the calcium/vitamin D and other nutrients that is needed on a daily basis. Go to the nutrition formula and follow the pyramid and your baby will do fine!:thumbsup

[ALittleNutty]

Okay everybody, thanks for your help.

Farelli, thank you especially.

I would like to remark that while the help is great and is much appreciated (and I am following the advice), many, MANY people did not actually read my posts, but reacted to just one sentence and gave me either bad advice, conflicting advice, or advice I can not use. That's okay - it's still help, but it was really hard to wade through it.

What is not okay was implying that I do not care about my squirrel if I do not immediately follow advice that is, as above, conflicting or impossible (or attacking me because I asked questions). For instance, I can not put my squirrel in the sun in lieu of giving him Vitamin D. There is no direct sun in my yard or windows, and this was in a post, but instead of answering the Vitamin D issue, which is important and worrisome, more people replied telling me to put him in the sun.

I'm very worried about the advice to give my squirrel Esbilac. This board has many posts recommending it, and even in this post, it says it's only okay if it's the kind that has probiotics - although the kind that does not looks almost identical and is still available on shelves at PetCo as of last night.

Finally, I think it is very wrong to condemn and attack me for giving my squirrel the scalded milk recipe. I am worried about his health, but if anyone had read my posts all the way through, there are several possible reasons for this issue - too much Vitamin D being one, weakness from hunger because of his teeth growing too long and in the wrong place was another. The picture of the starving tiny squirrels was awful, but my squirrel OBVIOUSLY does not look like that and I think that was totally unnecessary. It was not "luck" that he didn't starve. It was because I added the Vitamins E and D and yogurt, and used half and half instead of some nonfat or lowfat or whatever was in the fridge. He has been very active and healthy for the most part.

I am glad to now have the good advice, but I think it may be the last time I will ask for it here. There is good information here, but I felt like I was going to be lynched in several of the replies. And I still do not know how much Vitamin D is okay, and whether to stop or continue giving it to my little guy. I also still have no direct sun to put him in, LOL.

Thank you again. I know everyone here cares about squirrels, including my squirrel, and wants to help. It would be nice if everyone would remember that the other person on the other side of the computer screen is a real person who is worried, who cares about their squirrel. I wish you all well.

Kind regards,
Deborah

One thing you will find if you have more than two people chiming in is that they won't be in agreement 100% of the time.

INDIRECT sunlight is fine as I posted earlier. Sunlight gets bounced around off of walls pretty well. Vitamin D is really more of a concern for flyers since they are nocturnal. A quality formula, blocks and diet is usually the best way to provide vitamins.

As to the Esbilac issue. There has been a long history of problems with squirrels processing the OLD formula. The new one with probiotics seems to work very well. The old formula is still great for other animals which is why it's still available.

I don't believe posting the pic of the scalded milk squirrels was meant to hurt you but instead to show just how lucky you have been. Yes it's graphic but it's amazing the difference diet will make on these creatures. It is very tough on us when we take in one that has been fed poor diet to get them turned around. I had one that was being fed a formula of condensed milk and Kaopectate. I honestly didn't expect her to live when I saw how emaciated she was on top of a head injury but she is living happily in my yard and raising her second litter.

Yes, some posters tones are harsh and you just learn to brush it off. Some are meant that way and some are just rushed to try and help out in between feedings. Many of us have tried to help out others who just would not listen at all and it ended up costing the life of the squirrel and that upsets us a lot. The board has suffered a lot of losses this fall due to this issue and so we do often come off as overbearing but it's only because we care so much.

I hope you stick around. We would love you to stay and share your squirrel's progress to becoming a healthy and happy squirrel. We love lots of pictures too! Sometimes looking at their cute faces can turn a bad day around.

Whatever you decide to do we wish you both the best. :)

[katmann]

I am by no means an expert in this subject, however your concentration on how much Vitamin D is needed seems incidental. What I believe is needed is foods high in calcium and low in phosphorus. Phosphorus is needed,(for the body) however it also inhibits that body from obsorbing calcium. You need to provide foods with a higher ratio of calcium than then phosphorus. Collard Greens (fresh/uncooked) have a 14.5 mg/per 100g (calcium) to 1.0 mg/per 100g (phosphorus) ratio. Try a mix of Collard Greens and roasted almonds for a week. This will raise his calcium intake.
Good luck.

[sdreamcatcher]

Most recent reply to my post:
I think you've misread my post. For the first three months of his life he did not have Esbilac AT ALL, he had ONLY scalded milk. He is getting Esbilac NOW.



Original post:
Hi everybody,

I found a baby squirrel in my parking lot at work 2 1/2 months ago. I consider him my luckiest find. Anyway, after a lot of reading around online, I wasn't sold on Esbilac and fed him scalded half and half with liquid Vitamins D and E, and a good spoonful of plain yogurt added in. Sprinkles did very well on this formula, and is now a young squirrel.

Please clarify? Was it ONLY scalded milk, OR half of something and half of something else? It is wording like this that can confuse.

IF it was half scalded and half something else, (yogurt and/or supplemets and/or ?), then my last reply still stands. The reason he doesn't look like the pictures of babies fed 100% scalded milk is because it was half his formula. He does still look small to me, but without a weight and age, I can't tell for sure. You have had him 2 1/2 months; how old was he when you found him?

The vitamin D question was answered several times by several people. Getting him on the proper esbilac (with probiotics), OR fox valley (formulated just for squirrel babies), OR the goat's milk formula (a Godsend to those who can't get the fox valley), will provide Sprinkles the vitamin D he needs, so no more supplementing is needed. Once he weans himself and is eating blocks, again, those have been formulated with the proper levels of vitamin D. As was said earlier, the older esbilac is still on the shelves because esbilac is normally for puppies. For a long time it was the go to for squirrels as well, then they changed the way it was processed and it caused problems in baby squirrels. Now some have come on saying the latest formulation (with the probiotics) IS once again working for baby squirrels. My understanding is this latest esbilac came out this spring or summer.

EVERY newbie gets conflicting advice. My first thread with Butchie (and later Joey) (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?27333-Butchie-amp-Joey&highlight=) is FULL of such advice!! I didn't take it personally; I did question some points but I stayed with what the majority said. I was lucky in that I was a member here before finding these two sweeties and had done some reading back in 2008 when I joined (and yes, I thought the esbilac was still ok). I DID feel overwhelmed; I did NOT feel attacked. I felt people who had raised 30-40 babies at a time knew more then me and I still feel that (I have only raised 8).

Take all advice this way; the majority of people here are helping you in between feeding who knows how many little ones, raising their own families, and/or working regular jobs. Yes, much info gets skimmed over. A seasoned rehabber sees the words "scalded milk" and reacts, knowing how bad that is for them. Keep asking what is not answered, read all replies you get back (the multi quote feature is a wonderful thing), and remember this is a constant learning process :).

You say he is now getting esbilac, and I think I did see you ordered blocks as well? How is he doing? Are you still supplementing? The esbilac does contain a D3 supplement. Do you have a weight for him? His weight in grams determines how much formula he needs; the recommendation is 5% - 7% of his body weight. Others here can explain this better.


You came here for the love of Sprinkles. This is a good site; people wouldn't say what they say if they didn't care what happens to him. There were some babies lost very recently from bad advice followed and new people not wanting to follow proper diets; these deaths were heartbreaking for all involved and could have been avoided. It's obvious Sprinkles is loved; just know that now that you are here you are not the only one who loves him. He has his own fan club now :Love_Icon:Love_Icon

And yes!! More pictures!! :grin3

[ALittleNutty]

Maybe it was the lack of capitalization that threw some but I read it to say that she had been feeding scalded Half & Half (half milk & half cream like many use for coffee) and then adding the vitamins and yogurt.

[Anne]

deborah0302,

I did not post that picture to hurt you. Indeed you were very fortunate that your squirrel as a tiny baby did not look like that, and did not suffer a terrible slow death from scalded milk (or what ever mix). I have had way too many die in my hands that came to me too late to undo the harm that was done to them. I just lost one this very morning as a matter of fact. The finder just kept arguing with me that "so and so web site said it was wonderful and the thing to give them." I in no way wanted to imply that you didn't care about or want the best for your baby.

I don't believe posting the pic of the scalded milk squirrels was meant to hurt you but instead to show just how lucky you have been. Yes it's graphic but it's amazing the difference diet will make on these creatures. It is very tough on us when we take in one that has been fed poor diet to get them turned around.

The picture of your baby looked like a happy, healthy squirrel. I commend you for the job you have done.

I have had one squirrel who was 6/7 months old that refused to wean for me and was still only taking in formula twice a day. Every squirrel is different. On day she just changed and started eating her vegetables, etc.

On prepared formula, it is not necessary to supplement vitamin D. Definitely not needed if on Henry's blocks everyday. Natural sunlight is not always available every day, the blocks have what is needed to overcome that obstacle, the really huge rehabs use hours of nature lighting fixtures-too costly for most of us.

The older Esbilac is still available on store shelves, mainly because it is too expensive to toss it out just because it has been updated by the manufacturer, and because most people purchasing it use it to feed puppies.

Some people have found the food pyramid a bit confusing. Just mix together some romaine lettuce and other salad greens and veggies, some peeled apples or other fruit in moderation and he should do fine. Limit nuts and fruits as treats and he will remain healthy.

I was in a hurry earlier today and thought the advice you would get on into the day would be helpful and answer your questions. Sorry if that was not the out come. Usually, I am one of the peace keeper/ smoothers here on the board--very PC as it were. Just had my head pushed under too much BS and arguing earlier this morning.

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody -

I'm back and apologize for my upset response. I know everyone meant well, and several posts truly were helpful. I would just like to reinforce that it's more helpful to read answers that aren't a knee-jerk response, and when someone has a sick squirrel, they can be pretty sensitive and easily confused by conflicting answers.

I have an update that I hope will help others.

Following the advice from several of the responses, I mixed in the probiotic Esbilac with the scalded milk formula (scalded milk, vitamins, and yogurt) as follows: Mixed up the Esbilac formula as per the packaging, then mixed that with the formula so that it was 1/5 of the total formula, and 4/5 were the scalded milk.

Maybe because it was foreign to his diet, my squirrel immediately developed extremely liquid diarrhea. A considerable amount of reading suggested that this is very common with Esbilac. His seizures also immediately become more frequent and serious.

He had to get hydrated, but didn't really know how to drink. Fortunately, after I left water all over the counter several times a day, he got the hang of it. As soon as he re-hydrated, he immediately weaned and started eating his squirrel blocks. The diarrhea, however, took several weeks to resolve.

Vitamin D was not part of the issue as I had begun to think. Here is some information about Vitamin D, the result of a considerable amount of searching around on sites where rodenticides (spit!) were discussed:

"Animal data indicates signs of toxicity can occur with ingestion of 0.5 mg/kg (20,000 IU/kg )".

This suggests a squirrel would need to ingest about 40 complete human liquid Vitamin D pills of 500 IU each to show signs of toxicity. It also suggests that the assertion that human levels of Vitamin D in a human Calcium supplement will be harmful to a squirrel is incorrect.

In summary, here's what I think happened: The scalded milk formula needed to be supplemented with water (separately, not mixed in) for my squirrel to be hydrated enough to continue digesting correctly (I think this is why he began refusing formula and getting weak) and to transition to being able to digest solid food. Once he was hydrated, he immediately started eating solid food. I'm attaching a picture of him tackling his first rodent block (I was so relieved, I took about 20 identical pictures!)

Also, while the scalded milk formula definitely did work well for my squirrel (and until the hydration issue kicked in, produced a healthy and happy squirrel) my squirrel is very small. This could be because he is a runt, but more likely it is because of the formula. This is ok in my case, since his malformed palate means he can not be released, because his teeth have to be trimmed by a human (me).

I'm attaching a picture of Sprinkles in his squirrel trap - which I made after reading the lovely posts from Richard Ricky Ricardo Brady's mom. There are soon to be many more such traps about the house. He really loves them and checks them often. In the picture, the trapped squirrel is feasting on a tiny bit of ginger snap. :) He is in the squirrel trap now, after helpfully leaping all over my keyboard and making some interesting typos which I hope I have corrected.

Hope this helps somebody, and thank you again.
Deborah

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[farrelli]

Are you now following the nutrition guide we pointed you to?

The reaction to the scalded milk was predictable and why we warned you against it. Cow milk is very difficult to digest, even for humans. Diarrhea is the common result. In time, some can learn to handle it, but there is absolutely no point for doing that when better solutions are commonplace.

Where is your info about D from? Elsewhere on this site I posed what I had found from two or three companies who did the research on D as a rodenticide and their determinations were for far lesser amounts causing illness and death.

[deborah0302]

Your comment suggests you have mis-read what I wrote. My squirrel was doing very well on the scalded milk formula until he developed dehydration, which was after being on the formula for 3 months. His reaction was to 1/5 of the Esbilac added to the formula. It is the Esbilac which gave him immediate, very severe liquid diarrhea and compromised him so far that I thought I would lose him the day after I started him on it. I do not agree, based on my own experience, that Esbilac is a better solution.

The Vitamin D information came from here: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/11446.html. I'll look at your links too.

Yes, my squirrel is now receiving nutrition according to the nutrition guide on this site.

[Shewhosweptforest]

:wave123 Deborah0302 and Sprinkles:Love_Icon :Welcome although you've been here :crazy I'm late to the party :grin3 Sprinkles is adorable...I love his profile shots...his wittle nose is soooo cute :Love_Icon I'm glad he likes his blocks :thumbsup my squirrel was almost 2 yrs old when I came here...she wasn't having any difficulty I was just looking for other "squirrelnuts" and boy did I find them :Love_Icon and it was so nice to know I'm not the only "obsessed squirrel lover" :thumbsup anyway I did change Baby's diet after the advice I received here...Baby loves her picky blocks and I love the fact that it takes a lot of the burden off me "nutritionally" Please post more pics of Sprinkles and share his sweet personality :grouphug and welcome again! Ohh and thank you for taking this baby under your wing and saving his life:Love_Icon

[PennyCash]

Hi Deborah0302,
First I want to tell you how absolutely adorably Sprinkles is :Love_Icon
Secondly I think that I know how you feel having a girl in my house that OWNS my heart. I remember when I first joined TSB. I was frantically trying to find out what I needed to do right then to help her. I felt overwhelmed and in way over my head BEFORE I ever posted one word. Once the responses starting coming in I felt even more confused and overwhelmed because it did feel like there was conflicting advice.
Honestly, there was more than one occasion where I was wanting a specific answer and felt like no one was listening. I felt FRUSTRATED to say the least.
Here is what I have learned from my experience with this board.
Sometimes a post feels brusque or like they didn't read everything I wrote because that is what happened. As Farrelli mentioned and I have learned everyone has hectic lives and those that are answering are often quickly trying to get information out before they have to do the next feeding/cleaning/medication/hydration and so on.
You and I have but one little cutie that we care for, some of our members have dozens that they are caring for who need them. Some are struggling to bring back a baby from the brink because a finder, however well meaning, simply did not know enough to care for a squirrel or that found outdated protocol on the web. Personally, I cannot imagine how frustrating that must feel when your the one with all of these sick babies and you can't get the bad information off of the internet. Most of the people who are on TSB are here solely because they truly love squirrels and want to help the species. They try to save them all one baby at a time.
Sometimes, however I was so stressed out and worried that I couldn't actually understand exactly what someone was trying to say to me. I was focused with tunnel vision and wanted my question answered and couldn't understand why they were going off topic so to speak. I want to understand the why's of everything as well, I don't like it when no one can give me specific reasons. This is only compounded when I am worried or stressed, it becomes of paramount importance to me.
Sometimes, there is mis-communication and conflicting thoughts/ideas we are all humans and therefore it's bound to happen.
Mostly however what I have found is that TSB collectively holds it's breath trying to wish a squirrel well, many checking every spare moment that they can just to help as many as they can. Member's can be seen posting in the middle of the night because they thought of something to help a squirrel and had to go and post it right away. Or they can't sleep because they are right there with you worrying, pacing, puzzling it out in their brains, trying to think of ANYTHING that might help. Each and everyone of us has made mistakes, some of us have unintentionally caused harm or lost a baby because of mistakes and we all try to pass that knowledge on.
Each and everyone of us has had at least one special squirrel who ran away with a piece of our heart.
TSB is like a close knit family or neighborhood, you may not always see eye to eye on much other than your love for a squirrel and wanting to keep them happy and healthy.
I haven't found anything like it elsewhere on the web, and I for one appreciate knowing that I am not alone in my complete devotion to my girl. It's wonderful to me that soooo many people love her and want what's best for her here on TSB, that they truly, truly appreciate how much I love her.
I can tell that you are absolutely dedicated and devoted to Sprinkles, he has your heart in his wee little paw. In time I hope that you will come to learn that your not alone with your love for him.
Hoping that you are both doing well,
PennyCash