Underweight/dehydrated flyer

[pixiepoo]

Hi everyone. I just got a little male flyer from a friend. She had him 3 days and was feeding him Esbilac 3-4x a day. I'm concerned because he appears to be at least 5 weeks, probably older, but he is TINY. He was 22g at last weight check. He is pretty thin and was very dehydrated. Working on all of that and adjusting him slowly to the FV mixed formula. Since dehydration was the most pressing issue, I have diluted his formula since I got him. I am also giving pedialyte but he doesn't take that very well. I was told he was taking 1.5cc per feeding but he takes 1.9-2.8 per feeding with me. Does anyone have any advice? I nearly fell over when he was only 22g! I have raised flyers and grays before, but I have never had a flyer so undersized. Grays, yes, but flyers are a whole different ballgame. I can give subQ ringers but I would need to be told how much for a baby his sized. Thoughts? Tips?

Here are pics of him. He isn't super lively but he is also clearly scared of a new person/place.

[pixiepoo]

I would like to clarify that he is on the advised fox valley mix but it isn't full strength due to switching formulas and his dehydration. Here are more pics:

[ALittleNutty]

Are you feeding just the FV and is it the 32/40 formula? Mine were really underweight so they are now on the recipe below, and they really seem to love it. Also when serving it some are picky about the temp being "just right". You can of course make the formula in smaller batches since you just have one to feed. Stores for 72 hours in the fridge.

2 Tablespoons FV 32/40
2 Tablespoons heavy whipping cream
4 Tablespoons hot water
1 teaspoon yogurt - Yobaby is good but mine love Yoplait Original French Vanilla

You have a little cutie!!! Wish you the best!

[Skul]

I would advise against subQ at this time. He's eating well.
He should be fully hydrated in the next day or two. Use your judgment before moving to full strength formula.
I would suggest adding the yogurt, as ALittleNutty mentioned, although it might be best to hold off on the cream for a couple days.
Get a weight on him before each and every feeding. You can judge progress from that.

[pixiepoo]

Are you feeding just the FV and is it the 32/40 formula? Mine were really underweight so they are now on the recipe below, and they really seem to love it. Also when serving it some are picky about the temp being "just right". You can of course make the formula in smaller batches since you just have one to feed. Stores for 72 hours in the fridge.

2 Tablespoons FV 32/40
2 Tablespoons heavy whipping cream
4 Tablespoons hot water
1 teaspoon yogurt - Yobaby is good but mine love Yoplait Original French Vanilla

You have a little cutie!!! Wish you the best!

Hey! Thanks so much for the advice. I have him on that formula but just 1tsp cream to start out with so he adjusts well. Yes, I am using FV 32/40. Sorry I didn't specify that in my earlier post. :) I went and got the vanilla yogurt per your advice so I will switch from the other plain yogurt I was using. :) I have been adding a bit more water to my mix for the past few feeding a too and as he gets more hydrated I'll make it full strength. I also got some pedialyte into him this morning. What do you think about age? 5 weeks? Thanks again! :)

[ALittleNutty]

Sounds like you are doing good. My boys were emaciated when Uni got them at 4 weeks on Sept 19 they weighed right at 11 grams and here is a chart of their gains after I got them.

9/23 16g
9/25 18g/16g
9/28 24g/22g
9/30 26g/24g
10/1 30g/28g
10/5 34g
10/6 38g
11/4 54g/52g

As you can see 22 grams is pretty good if you are thinking 5 weeks.

Here is a link to Skul's chart from prior litters that might help.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?42825-Baby-Flyer-weights-and-age

[Anne]

With all that hair I think he is older. 25 grams is about right weight for a 5 week old. They open their eyes at around the 30 day mark. I would age him at about 8 weeks old, and he should weigh twice what he does.

[ALittleNutty]

Anne I agree he has got to be older than 5 weeks and you are probably right. I looked back at the tail and how it has filled out. Hopefully this little one will put those grams on fast as soon as the formula goes up to full strength.

[pixiepoo]

Anne I agree he has got to be older than 5 weeks and you are probably right. I looked back at the tail and how it has filled out. Hopefully this little one will put those grams on fast as soon as the formula goes up to full strength.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I was thinking he was older initially (~7weeks) but he acts quite young and looks less developed in person. But I agree, he is probably older than 5wks. I gave him diluted formula for the first 6 feedings and within 16hr he had already gained ~2g (most which was likely just water weight. That was how dehydrated the little fella was). I only used 1tsp of cream in his formula for 24hr and now have him on the typical recipe suggested above. :) I am feeding him more frequently (5-6x a day...and mksing sure to feed him at night when he was on the diluted formula) but will try to adjust him to a more age appropriate feeding schedule over the next few days. He is more alert now too so he seems to be headed in the right direction.

He isn't on solids at the moment because he needs to put on weight. But when I start him on solids, should I give HHB growth formula OR flyer formula?

Thanks again for the advice.

[Anne]

I would use the flyer HHB's, you may want to make adjustments. I will PM you my phone number.

[ALittleNutty]

Glad to hear he is heading in the right direction! Keep up the great work!

As long as poops are well formed you are doing fine, if they start to get mushy then you are overfeeding. Color should be golden yellow and will darken slightly when adding blocks. After you start on veggies then it's normal to see them change to dark brown, almost black.

[pixiepoo]

Glad to hear he is heading in the right direction! Keep up the great work!

As long as poops are well formed you are doing fine, if they start to get mushy then you are overfeeding. Color should be golden yellow and will darken slightly when adding blocks. After you start on veggies then it's normal to see them change to dark brown, almost black.


Yep! His poops are nice and solid, he is eating every 4-5hr and now quite active. He is very shy and easily spooked except when in my bra. He loves to sleep there. :) very happy though. He groomed my hand for a long time today and started playing also (doing that precious side jump that flyers do).

[ALittleNutty]

Sounds great! I love the side jump but my fav is when they just wake up and yawn and stretch. :Love_Icon:Love_Icon that but can never get a pic of it. They will always be a little jumpy, that's just their nature. Just keep us posted on the progress and holler if you need anything although it sounds like you have it under control. :grin3

[pixiepoo]

Sounds great! I love the side jump but my fav is when they just wake up and yawn and stretch. :Love_Icon:Love_Icon that but can never get a pic of it. They will always be a little jumpy, that's just their nature. Just keep us posted on the progress and holler if you need anything although it sounds like you have it under control. :grin3

Yes!!!! And he does a double stretch and yawn! they certainly are a bit jumpy but he is way more sound sensitive than my 2yr old. He has been steadily gaining ~1.5g per day so I am thrilled. I had him on nearly full strength formula (1tsp yogurt but just 1 tsp cream instead of 2. We were slowly working our way up) and he seemed "off." His appetite greatly decreased so I had to cut back on the cream. I tried twice to adjust him very slowly and within 1 or 2 feedings, he would barely eat. So I've got him on mainly just plain FV now and ordered some ultraboost. I want him to have the extra calories but at this point it is more important that he is eating regularly/staying hydrated. I'm sure he will catch up eventually! I have heard that others really like FV ultra boost. Have you had any experience with it?

[ALittleNutty]

Ok, I was told to use it at first and I did until I ran out of the small amount that was given to me. I have since been told not to use it if using the cream, that it's overloading.

How often are you feeding? On that recipe they can go 4-5 hours between feedings. That may be the issue with lack of appetite.

[pixiepoo]

Ok, I was told to use it at first and I did until I ran out of the small amount that was given to me. I have since been told not to use it if using the cream, that it's overloading.

How often are you feeding? On that recipe they can go 4-5 hours between feedings. That may be the issue with lack of appetite.

I was going as long as every 6-8 hr between feedings. But he took .5cc or less (consistently taking less and less) only during feedings of the cream formula mix. So I had to decrease the cream again. He became lethargic and looked bad. No diarrhea but clearly not ok.

[magna]

Stacking the UB with the cream is not an issue but will lead to obesity very quickly and fill them up without a lot of calories. Any animal with a high activity rate requires calories to burn just like gas for a car. If I remember right the UB is something along the lines of 50+% fat content. I stacked it with two of my flyers and I think Anne did also with two of hers when they first came in. I stack it quite often with the skinny grey's and especially with malnourished fawns. Most of your heavy whipping creams have fructose or some form of sugar in them which I do not think is good for any of the wild babies, just my opinion. They get sugar from the fruits and veggies and just like us with sweet tea or cake, it stacks the weight on. Land o Lakes heavy whipping cream does not show any sugar added and that is the one we use when we need it. Dealing with ruminants we stay away from most anything sweet or having sugar, as Major Payne would say "It'll clean their colon quicker than a guacamole burrito!!!" NOT GOOD.....
As far as feeding time, I recently split up a large group of flyer siblings aprox 5-6 wks old and our guys were being fed every six hours after the break up, the others were being fed every three to four hours. My guys were noticeably, by a lot, smaller after two weeks than the others and they were being fed the exact same formula mixture. We paid a visit to the others with ours along in the pouch and when you held them next to each other it was WOW!!!! My guys never seemed very hungry until I started bumping the feedings back up to four hours which we did until solids. Anne has a lot of knowledge of flyers and been doing them for some time.

[magna]

Stacking the UB with the cream is not an issue but will lead to obesity very quickly and fill them up without a lot of calories. Any animal with a high activity rate requires calories to burn just like gas for a car. If I remember right the UB is something along the lines of 50+% fat content. I stacked it with two of my flyers and I think Anne did also with two of hers when they first came in. I stack it quite often with the skinny grey's and especially with malnourished fawns. Most of your heavy whipping creams have fructose or some form of sugar in them which I do not think is good for any of the wild babies, just my opinion. They get sugar from the fruits and veggies and just like us with sweet tea or cake, it stacks the weight on. Land o Lakes heavy whipping cream does not show any sugar added and that is the one we use when we need it.
As far as feeding time, I recently split up a large group of siblings aprox 5-6 wks old and our guys were being fed every six hours after the break up, the others were being fed every three to four hours. My guys were noticeably, by a lot, smaller after two weeks than the others and they were being fed the exact same formula mixture. We paid a visit to the others with ours along in the pouch and when you held them next to each other it was WOW!!!! My guys never seemed very hungry until I started bumping the feedings back up to four hours which we did until solids. Anne has a lot of knowledge of flyers and been doing them for some time.

[Unikorngrrl]

I couldn't remember the exact major reason my vet said no UB for flyers so I just got off of the phone calling to ask. It isn't good per my Vet b/c it long use of it causes a build up of some things in the system that can become toxic and b/c it has other things that cause overgrowth of joints that can be debilitating. She didn't have to time sit and explain it fully but that's the verdict I just got... she said that if I wanted to I could email her and she would respond with more detailed info if I wanted, but truly her saying no is good enough for me. In essence, overkill... It also runs hand in hand with what Chris and Leigh told me about adding supplements really...

[ALittleNutty]

At this age I wouldn't stretch out feedings any further than 5 hours max. You might want to try more frequent but smaller feedings. Are you feeding anything else in between? Right now I would stick with formula and blocks before adding anything else at this point. There might be something else going on here and the fewer things there are to rule out the easier it will be.

I am sure you know this but don't microwave the formula, just fill the syringe(s) and put them in a baggie and warm them in a cup of hot water.

I am sort of wondering since this one hasn't worked up to the full amount of cream if he's just not getting enough calories?

Will be off the boards for a while today. I have to say final goodbyes to one of my motorcycle club brothers but I will check back in this evening.

[Unikorngrrl]

I couldn't remember the exact major reason my vet said no UB for flyers so I just got off of the phone calling to ask. It isn't good per my Vet b/c it long use of it causes a build up of some things in the system that can become toxic and b/c it has other things that cause overgrowth of joints that can be debilitating. She didn't have to time sit and explain it fully but that's the verdict I just got... she said that if I wanted to I could email her and she would respond with more detailed info if I wanted, but truly her saying no is good enough for me. In essence, overkill... It also runs hand in hand with what Chris and Leigh told me about adding supplements really...

This is of course with long term use. I can't imagine a few days of it would be able to cause any major damage...I should have asked exactly what she meant by "long term". I'll send an email to get that answer...

[Anne]

Really interested in what your vet emails you. Not able to find my foot tapping smiley :grin2

[Unikorngrrl]

Really interested in what your vet emails you. Not able to find my foot tapping smiley :grin2

Don't tap too hard :rotfl They only check email once a week. I don't want to harrass her by calling b/c she always comes to the phone for me. I don't want to abuse that luxury!! I will let you know as soon as she tells me though. I should have asked but she was in a hurry and I didn't have time to think and then ask. I just feel thankful that she always tries to help! She had an older couple a few years ago that had a boat load of flyers. She did a great deal of research on them back then. I've had her on her toes about greys too. I couldn't ask her to be anymore helpful, especially for all of the over-the-phone free advice she has given me, even for people on the board. She helped me with questions about IR's Dale when she had abscesses and with the OH squirrels. She has really been wonderful since I've explained to her what I do here and now that she knows what I've been doing with the rehab. She truly loves animals. Money certainly IS NOT her only driver...

[Anne]

You are so lucky to have her as your vet! But then I am sure you know that. Finding a good vet can be a long and difficult process, finding one who will do research to help squirrels is priceless. Most certainly will wait patiently-no toe tapping-at least she checks emails and answers them. I never want to stop learning and always look forward to new information.

[pixiepoo]

Thank you all for the help. I am doing every 5-6hr during the day and ~6 hr at night. He seems like he is absolutely starving when I feed him so I may try purring him back to every 4 during the day. He is taking ~7% of his weight per feeding (he would take a lot more but I have to stop him). I got a high quality whipping cream and organic vanilla yogurt to try for a 3rd time and IT WORKED! Unlike the other 2 times that I tried the other stuff, this time he ate his full meals each feeding! He absolutely LOVED it, poops were normal and he didn't act lethargic like the other times. All I can think of is that there were additives in the ingredients before or maybe one was bad? They were brand new, smelled fine and were far from the listed expiration date. Either way, he is eating VERY well now, but I may go back to feeding every 4 hr. He needs to gain and it won't hurt (it would only be 2 more additional feeding really). He was actually only 20g as of Monday evening. He was 26g this morning so we're moving in the right direction.

He is only getting HHB for flyers, the FV/yogurt/cream mixture formula and has a teeny, shallow dish of water I change twice daily. He still is not very active for his age but has a great appetite. I think he may just be more mellow than my others.

Thanks everyone for all of the info about ultraboost, diet and whatnot.

Here is him with his new stuffed toy (can you tell I really just want to show off pictures of him?!:grin2):

Thank you all SO MUCH!

Stacking the UB with the cream is not an issue but will lead to obesity very quickly and fill them up without a lot of calories. Any animal with a high activity rate requires calories to burn just like gas for a car. If I remember right the UB is something along the lines of 50+% fat content. I stacked it with two of my flyers and I think Anne did also with two of hers when they first came in. I stack it quite often with the skinny grey's and especially with malnourished fawns. Most of your heavy whipping creams have fructose or some form of sugar in them which I do not think is good for any of the wild babies, just my opinion. They get sugar from the fruits and veggies and just like us with sweet tea or cake, it stacks the weight on. Land o Lakes heavy whipping cream does not show any sugar added and that is the one we use when we need it.
As far as feeding time, I recently split up a large group of siblings aprox 5-6 wks old and our guys were being fed every six hours after the break up, the others were being fed every three to four hours. My guys were noticeably, by a lot, smaller after two weeks than the others and they were being fed the exact same formula mixture. We paid a visit to the others with ours along in the pouch and when you held them next to each other it was WOW!!!! My guys never seemed very hungry until I started bumping the feedings back up to four hours which we did until solids. Anne has a lot of knowledge of flyers and been doing them for some time.

[pixiepoo]

I just wanted to clarify a bit more: up until today I was feeding every 4 hr, initiwlly around the clock because I had to dilute his formula because he was really dehydrated. Then I adjusted him to every 4 during the day and 6 at night. When I switched today I was advised to wait 6-8hr so I have been doing 6 hr between feedings around the clock. Since he is so hungry each feeding I will likely drop back to feeding every 4 hr during the day and 6 at night. His poops are nice and solid, so no issues there. He barely touches his HHB right now but I'll get him to love them soon enough! ;) also, I never said his name. It is Smeagol. :):):crazy

Oh, and yes, I always reheat the formula in a cup of hot water. ;) It would curdle in the microwave.

So what is the verdict on age? He is tiny so initially thought 5 weeks but he looks maybe 7-8 to me now.

[Duckman]

Smeagle is just too precious! I love those eyes! I have a smile in my heart right now!

[Anne]

What a cutie! The stuffy towers over him.
I would give him more formula if he wants it. The 5 to 7% is the minimum he should be fed, more will help keep him hydrated and boost his growth. Just keep a block or so in his cage at all times. He is still awfully little and may only taste the blocks but in time he will learn to eat solids.
Have you seen Skul's weight chart done by age? The other stickies in Breed Specific" section? Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:grouphug

[ALittleNutty]

Glad to hear Smeagol is loving his new formula! He is so adorable!

[pixiepoo]

What a cutie! The stuffy towers over him.
I would give him more formula if he wants it. The 5 to 7% is the minimum he should be fed, more will help keep him hydrated and boost his growth. Just keep a block or so in his cage at all times. He is still awfully little and may only taste the blocks but in time he will learn to eat solids.
Have you seen Skul's weight chart done by age? The other stickies in Breed Specific" section? Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:grouphug

Yea, his stuffy is huge compared to it but he loves to wrestle with it. I'm still looking for a safe smaller one though. :)

I'm feeding every 4hr and he takes about 2cc before I stop him. He gets about 10-12cc per day and is fattening up nicely. I leave 1/4 of a HHB in with him twice a day (it seems like it would get gross if I left it for more than 12hr). So far he has nibbled on it a bit but not very much. I'm ok with him getting a diet of only formula for now. He needs to chub up! I will check out the weight chart. I looked at one but I am
Not sure if it was Skul's.

Thanks all for the sweet comments. He is a very special baby. :)

[pixiepoo]

I just checked and that was the weight chart I saw before. He was 20g on Monday (1 week ago today. I initially said 22 but I forgot to weigh him before he ate so he was actually 20g at at least 6 weeks, probably closer to 7 or 8 weeks). I was pretty surprised that he weighed nearly half of what he should. He was 28g as of Sunday afternoon. :)