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[Triscuit]

Hello I have a squirrel that came to me with MBD, he had lost all his teeth and his pelvis grew improperly. I have since provided him with cuttle bone and prime supplements and a UVB light. I have had him for four months and he is pretty active, considering all his medical problems. Until this morning when I found him laying on the bottom of his night cage lethargic and his tail kept twitching. I immediately placed him on a heating pad and after awhile gave him pedialyte. after an hour he began moving more and he seemed to be doing better. I have checked on him every 20 min. to offer pedialyte which he began to refuse so i offered 4:1 ratio formula. He is no longer lethargic nor twitching but does seem inactive and is having trouble moving is left back leg properly. His stool is normal but his urine is cloudy. The earliest I can get him to the vet is wed. morning so if anyone has any advice please help!

[farrelli]

How was he able to chew the cuttle bone without teeth? I would suggest that you immediately get some Tums or other calcium without vitamin D, crush it up, add water, and give it to him. Here is out MBD treatment.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?34495-Emergency-Treatment-of-Metabolic-Bone-Disease-(MBD)

Btw, what are "prime supplements"? If they had calcium, the above may not be needed.

Also, you might try rubbing molasses on his gums. It has sugar and minerals which often help a squirrel come around.

[farrelli]

Also, if the urine is cloudy, he may have a UTI or bladder infection. You can continue with the Pedialyte for 24hrs and then discontinue due to the salt. After that, plain water or sugar water is recommended.

[Triscuit]

I ground the cuttlebone up.. and prime is a calcium supplement for birds (commonly used on squirrels to!)
His normal diet since he doesn't have teeth is 7ml formula mixed with a veg. baby food then i mix in either cuttlebone or prime and atleast 2 crushed rodent blocks a meal. He gets that 2 times a day. then fresh crushed fruit (blueberries, bananas, etc.) once a day.

[farrelli]

I have to go but others will be on. What kind of formula and blocks are you giving?

If you were giving too much calcium (hypercalcemia), that can also cause problems and crystals in the urine (which may make it cloudy). If this is the case, you'd need to push fluids to try to flush out the excess calcium.

[SammysMom]

You are getting good advise here! Farrelli is right on target. How does he seem right now? Pushing fluids can't hurt. Maybe a bit of molasses as if he had a seizure it depletes blood sugar and molasses will help that. It also has iron and other good stuff in it. I think molasses is a better option than sugar when possible.
Where did the squirrel come from that he had MBD? Maybe we can get a better picture of his overall condition by knowing what happened in the beginning of his life.

[Triscuit]

He was found by a bunch of kids and they kept him for awhile but when his teeth started bleeding and falling out they brought him to me. He also had a skinned tail, which healed nicely with some antibiotics and ointment. He was slightly dehydrated as well.

I have had him since the middle of june. and we haven't had any problems since the first week. He is a lot more alert now but still sluggish and his urine is still cloudy and the last few drops are formula colored. I tried a pinch test on his skin but it went down right away although his gums do seem slightly pale. He still isn't moving much either. and for the last hour he is refusing the 4:1 formula ratio..

I have never used molasses can you explain how to mix? formula is esbilac and rodent blocks from kaytee I also use monkey chow on occasion but he prefers the rodent blocks.

[SammysMom]

Okay, at his age Esbilac is not catastrophic, but Fox Valley is better nutritionally. We will cross that bridge when we get to it though.
For now, the rodent block is not great and you need a lot more than two to meet required nutritional needs. The formula almost should have picked that up though so lets see what else it could be. What is the supplement that you are giving? If it has more Vitamin D in it than what a squirrel needs it is quite bad for them. I think that flushing with fluids is a good idea at this point. It sort of seems like a toxic level of something or an infection. Do you have access to a vet?
The molasses can be put right on his gums so it is absorbed through the tissue in his mouth. Just a bit of it if it seems he might have had a sizure. You do it right away and it helps to get his blood sugar back up where it belongs.

[SammysMom]

How long did the kids have him? How old is he?

[Triscuit]

The kids said they had him a few weeks.. but i'm not sure. And I had him looked at when I got him and they estimated 10 weeks so he would be around 22 weeks now. and i cant get to a vet until wed. I recently moved over an hour away and I do not have a car at the moment.... should i go ahead and try molasses and how much do i use?

[SammysMom]

The molasses is for if and when he has a seizure. If he is only 22 weeks old and he has lost all of his teeth I am concerned that it is something others than MBD. Let me see if I can find an experienced rehabber to take a look at this thread.

[Triscuit]

I had him looked at when he first came to me and that is what they told me.. they actually gave me the prime and said to also use cuttlebone. I am concerned that it is dehydration because recently i have been adding more rodent blocks and less formula. I thought since he had access to water ( a water bottle) he didn't need as much formula... Am i wrong?

also would it be bad to use molasses if i'm not sure if he did have a seizure?

And thank you for helping! I am so worried that he might not walk right again...

[CritterMom]

I have a few questions:

Is it possible that the children had him longer and that he was without ANY formula for that period? I ask because it is very unusual for them to develop MBD that young UNLESS they have been totally deprived of formula - like someone finding a baby and starting to feed it only peanuts. Even a substandard formula usually has enough calcium to prevent that.

Can you tell me what blocks you are using in your food concoction? Brand?

How many total milligrams of calcium is being given daily with the Prime?

Continue hydrating him - he may not understand how his bottle works, and dehydration can cause all kinds of problems.

A little molasses will not hurt him.

[farrelli]

He's not going to OD on the molasses, so feel free to apply it repeatedly if it's showing success.

I see no one has mentioned the pinch test, gently pinch the skin between his shoulder blades and see if it tents up or if it goes right back down like on the back of your hand (it should). If not, it's a big sign of dehydration.

If he has a water bottle, sometimes the ball gets stuck.

Do you have any antibiotics? Cloudy urine can be a sign of dehydration but also infection. We can tell you how to dose if you have an AB that a squirrel can have.

[Triscuit]

I do not have any antibiotics... and I have tried the pinch test as i previously mentioned it went back pretty quickly but his gums are slightly pale.

I'm not sure how long the kids had him, one of their moms brought him to me and she didn't say much...

the rodent blocks are kaytee. and i'm not sure about the amount of calcium in prime the rehabber i had look at him gave me a couple of containers full from her bottle and said to add about a pinch per meal and i use bird cuttlebones.

I'll try the molasses to see if it helps.

[CritterMom]

OK, before meds, I did some reading, specifically about the Prime. I have parrots, BTW, and am familiar with the product.

The two things I see vets underestimate routinely are (1) the amount of calcium needed to counteract MBD and (2) how LITTLE elemental calcium is in the stuff they recommend to do it. Those two things combine and you have a disaster...

I do hope you are open to some new ideas. Right now if Triscuit was mine, I would continue hydrating him and I would also get some real calcium into him. The easiest way short term is with Tums - the antacid. Buy the fruit flavor - it is just flavoring and calcium. The label will tell you how much calcium is in each one - I think they are usually 750mg. This is a young animal and not very large so I would propose getting 1/2 of one of those 750mg Tums into him in a 24 hour stretch. You can dissolve in water and even use it to do some of the hydration. Best is to spread it out through the day in many small doses. This will mean you are giving him 375mg of calcium per day.

We have a member here who sat and watched so many people having their babies die of this horrible malady and she designed a food to both prevent it from happening and help in the treatment. Almost everyone on the board feeds it. This is what you should do: Go to www.henryspets.com and call the phone number on the site. Her name is Leigh - you can point her to this thread - and explain everything that has happened to this baby so far. I would suggest that you purchase her "MBD Kit" since it has pure calcium powder, vitamins, and a bag of the Henry's Picky Bites, which should become Triscuit's block from now on. I know Leigh has made SOFT blocks (the normal ones are not hard like commercial blocks anyway - plus they taste good so the squirrels actually eat them) for other toothless squirrels and you can ask her about that. She is very knowledgable about this disease and has what you need to help your little guy...

I think he has lingering MBD because the supplements he is getting do not have enough calcium in them to do the trick. I think his urine is cloudy because he is dehydrated.

[farrelli]

You might start calling around for ABs. Baytril for animals and Cipro for humans are very common. Some pet stores also sell ABs for fish, reptiles and birds under a variety of names and without a script. Fish Flox is a big one. This little guy seems in bad shape, so being prepared is everything.

Btw, sorry, missed the pinch test. It's busy board!

[farrelli]

Prime has 22.639mg per 1cc. HOw much were you giving each day?

I have no idea about Esbilac or Kaytee (can't find the info), or for a cuttlebone.

[Triscuit]

He gets about a tsp of prime a day. Is there a certain antibiotic i need or will any do? and thank you all for your help! I will get some tums asap and use that!

[CritterMom]

There is a lot of other things in the Prime in addition to the calcium, and squirrels and birds have different needs. Once this little guy is on the better blocks he will be getting exactly what a squirrel needs, and hopefully he will be able to get off of the added calcium fairly soon.

Make sure you continue to hydrate him - he needs his formula too but keep up the water. See what the urine looks like tomorrow after he has been hydrated.

[farrelli]

Baytril, Cipro, SMZ, and Amoxicillin are good with the first two being very good and very common.

It's just so hard to tell what we're dealing with, but cloudy/white urine isn't part of MBD but it could mean infection.

[Triscuit]

I am really concerned now! I just went to offer pedialyte and he's mouth breathing... I didn't give him any pedialyte but I did get him to use the bathroom and his urine is clear except the last few drops which are still cloudy.. What should I do??

[farrelli]

Get that calcium in him and find the ABs. I've got to go. Others will help.

[SammysMom]

I heard from Leigh and she said to stop the Prime. The ratios of calcium to Vitamin A & D are WAY off. The amount of D in the Prime could actually prevent enough calcium from being absorbed so as to cause MBD. That being said, Crittermom is absolutely right that getting started with Tums and then calcium is the way to go. Start the Tums, push hydration and get some HHBs and plain calcium. Adding Fox Valley formula is also probably a good idea. It is actually less expensive that Esbilac is too! If you go to henryspets.com you can get all of these items. If you call the order in, Leigh is probably who you will speak to and she can help you with exactly what you need. Tell her that you are the person who posted about the squirrel who lost its teeth.

[SammysMom]

Also...STOP the ground up cuttlebone! That is not a good idea and that plus the Prime is possibly what is causing the cloudy urine.

[Triscuit]

I looked at Henryspets.com but the MBD kit is to expensive for me right now so do you think it would be ok if I do tums in warm water tommorrow and then continue with esbilac and use the monkey chow instead of the rodent blocks? also do you think he will ever be able to use his left back leg properly again? you guys have been a really big help! thank you all so much

[SammysMom]

Hydrate with sugar water and see if that is more easily accepted.

[Triscuit]

Hydrate with sugar water and see if that is more easily accepted.

then the tums water?

[SammysMom]

As dire a situation as he is in I don't think that monkey chow is a good alternative. You get the Tums and follow the MBD emergency treatment to the letter. Tonight would be better to start the Tums, but tomorrow is okay I guess. This is an emergency situation. It is a long treatment that MUST be followed through with or he will be in more trouble than he already is. If you send me your address I will send you blocks to use this month. You are going to have to get him on good blocks though. The bag takes care of a month, but you will need to get them every month.

[SammysMom]

then the tums water?

No instead of the pedialyte to see if he will take it more easily. The Tums are non-negotiable. They MUST be given if you are not giving calcium on its own.

[Triscuit]

i am going to call the rehabber i know tomorrow and see if she can take him... it breaks my heart to give him up but i'm just not his best option any longer...

Thank you all for your help!

[Nancy in New York]

I know this can be very overwhelming.
Just be careful if you give him up,
that she won't just euthanize. So many rehabbers are terribly busy with the
fall babies, it's a difficult time for them to devote the time and care that your little
one may need.
We can help you through this, if you have the time.
If not, please just make sure
that if you do give him to a rehabber, that they will give him the time he needs. :grouphug

[Triscuit]

I will definitely not give him up to be killed!! he's doing much better then this morning.. I do have one more question what ratio do i use for sugar/water? And if she can't take him I will do everything I can to see he gets everything he needs!

[Nancy in New York]

I will definitely not give him up to be killed!! he's doing much better then this morning.. I do have one more question what ratio do i use for sugar/water? And if she can't take him I will do everything I can to see he gets everything he needs!

Here you go,

1 cup warm water
1 Tbsp sugar (tablespoon)

Keep this in the refrig.

Glad that your little one is better from this morning.
We are here to help you through this. We get busy at times,
with our own babies and such, and may not always be on the board, but
for sure you will get answers periodically throughout the day.

[farrelli]

If this is MBD, I would not wait until tomorrow to provide calcium because, as it says in the protocol, this should be done NOW because time is of the essence. If you have no Tums, do you have any source of calcium? You can even break open some eggs, clean out the shells, put them in the oven for a few minutes to completely dry out, and then pound the crap out of them until they are a fine powder which you can add to water or sprinkle on something he'll eat. You'll really have to shake the water to keep it in suspension though.

Can you tell us how he's acting now? Provide a pic?

[Triscuit]

ok I am going to crush the egg shell. do i use the whole egg shell? and should i mix that with the sugar water?

He is not moving much when i am not in the room ( he's in same spot every time i come back) but when i do come in he lifts his head and wobbles my way.. he's still not walking right but he is up and moving!

[farrelli]

Yes, just clean it out (no soap), dry it out, and pound the crap out of it. You can mix it with sugar water or anything else that you might think that he'll take. If it's fine enough (a coffee grinder works great) he wouldn't even notice it on food. Just get it into him however you can. There's almost no wrong way.

[farrelli]

Btw, obviously you don't have to feed him all of it, just a reasonable amount. Just try as well as you can. Some is better than none. Tomorrow you can employ more precise means.

[Triscuit]

yes in the morning i will go get tums.

thank you i will post in the morning with an update!

[SammysMom]

Please keep hydrating to flush the excess vitamin D from his system. You can get control of this if you just follow the protocol. I was not trying to frighten you, just to let you know that it was a serious situation. The blocks will go into the mail if you want them. I have them in the freezer. Even the Wild Bites that are less expensive have the same nutritional benefits.
You are in my prayers. Just be calm and follow the protocol for MBD.

[farrelli]

Vitamin D can't be flushed by water as it is fat soluble. Keeping him well hydrated it a good idea though.

[Triscuit]

with him possibly being dehydrated would it be a bad idea to put the crushed egg shell on some fruit baby food?

[farrelli]

That would be fine.

[farrelli]

Though others might show up tonight, I'm going to bed in 10-20 minutes, so if you have any other questions, please ask now. If you're set, that's great. Good luck! Please keep us updated frequently.

[Triscuit]

I got him to eat a little baby food mixed with sugar water and egg shells. But after he ate he began mouth breathing and his tail started thumping the ground again... I waited for him to calm down and fall asleep before i left the room though. I'm going to let him rest and check on him in an hour. I'm so worried.. every time i think we are heading in the right direction he seems to slip back.. :(

[Triscuit]

my little sammy squirrel died last night :'(... he looks like he went peacefully..

I wanted to thank you all again for all the helpful advice you gave me!

[SammysMom]

Godspeed sweet boy...:Love_Icon:Love_Icon:Love_Icon

[CritterMom]

I'm so sorry. I think whatever happened to this baby before you got him, whether it was a birth defect, mishandling by his original finders - whatever, is responsible for this. Poor little guy.

Remember us here - and not just for emergencies - if you work with rehabbers and raise babies occasionally - even if they aren't squirrels - you will find lots of help here.

I am sorry about your little Sammy:grouphug

[TubeDriver]

RIP little Sammy. At least he had a friend in Triscuit so he was not alone and he had someone to care for him.

[Triscuit]

thank you all again! and I will certainly never forget this board! I am hoping to get my license as soon as i can! there are no licensed rehabbers in my area.. closest one i can find is an hour away..

[farrelli]

I'm very sorry. Almost certainly other squirrels will find you. That's just how it works. And now you know where to come. There's a lot to know!

[UDoWhat]

So sorry to hear this. So very sad. :Love_Icon