FOX VALLEY & PINKIES: Discussion Thread

[island rehabber]

As a wildlife rehabilitator and admin here, I can't live in denial anymore.
There IS a problem with FV and very young pinkies....LESS THAN 5 days old.

For whatever reason, rehabbers all over the country are having difficulty with FV 32/40, even when combined with Ultra Boost, not being digested by very young pinky squirrels. The stuff stays in their gut for hours and hours....the milk line never moves. I saw it in my little Robbie, who died. Nancy in NY had the same experience with a pinky red, who died. UDoWhat had a similar experience and reported to me that others in her area were baffled by the same syndrome in their neonates on FV.

First off: if you are NOT rehabbing squirrels younger than 5 days old please do not panic about this. In fact, all of my six came in at about a week old or older, except Robbie, and they have been on FV and Ultra Boost and are doing GREAT. This is strictly a neonate issue, which most of you will not encounter.

I haven't spoken to Nick at FV yet, but I will. In the meantime, should you get in a very young pinky, it would be wise to start him on the Goat's milk formula and transition to FV at around 10 days old, to be on the safe side. (10 days is when the umbilical stump typically falls off. )

I welcome comments, corrections and suggestions to this thread; this is an ongoing discussion about an extremely serious issue and we need everyone's input.

:thankyou
IR

[SammysMom]

Thank-you for posting this Maura! I have been watching and wondering if there was an issue.

[island rehabber]

Thank-you for posting this Maura! I have been watching and wondering if there was an issue.

It's happened too many times now for it to be a coincidence, or bad water, or rehabber error. SOMETHING is wrong....

[stepnstone]

I do know there is a difference between wild animals and human animal
so please don't beat me up over this, just throwing it out there...

I'm wondering if what's happening with the pinkies is on the same lines as what happens with a
"premature" infant in that the immature lining of the intestines makes it hard for them to digest fat?
Many premature (human) babies have to start out on specialized formulas due to this issue.
My younger brother and son both were put on a goat's milk formula until their digestive systems matured
due to this very issue.

[Skul]

Experienced the same thing with Moses.
We had to keep him on goat's milk for some time, then slowly transition to FV.
He has no issue with FV at this time. (7 weeks or so)

[Anne]

OMG, I thought that it was just me and/or the pinkies. I stabilized three pinkies of about 12 grams each. I past one on to Lady Squirrelly that was doing great at first, then found dead. One I kept here for 4 days died, the third I past on to another one of my volunteers, it was dead in 3 days. All of us are experienced not anyone's first rodeo. All the pinkies I got this year past away in just a few days!

[Charley Chuckles]

OMG what about LG I give her it every morning :eek

[CritterMom]

OMG what about LG I give her it every morning :eek

She isn't a pinkie! It is just the wee neonates that seem to be having issues with straight FV.

[Nancy in New York]

Last year when I got Eve, I also got two of her sisters,
who died on day 4 and 5 of them being here.
No explanation, just died a day apart.
They too were neonates.

I recently got 4 neonate reds. One passed last night.
None of the milk lines on any of them would go down.
I started them off on FV with a ratio of 1 FV to 3 parts hot water,
and I let mine sit, I make it up in advance.
I have always added Ultra Boost
and did so this time too.
They were all keeping their milk lines after hours of being fed.

Sunday night I started them all on the Goat Milk formula, with no transition.
The thing that strikes me odd, is that with the GM formula, I hardly see any milk line
at all, and definitely when I go to feed 2 hours later, it is totally gone.

Here is little Robbie about an hour before he passed.
He was last fed about 7 hours prior.
I was hydrating him, but did not feel comfortable giving him more formula
with such a huge milk line still visible.
The milk line is going to his side and onto his back area too.

211956211957

[Charley Chuckles]

She isn't a pinkie! It is just the wee neonates that seem to be having issues with straight FV.

:thankyou

[Charley Chuckles]

Last year when I got Eve, I also got two of her sisters,
who died on day 4 and 5 of them being here.
No explanation, just died a day apart.
They too were neonates.

I recently got 4 neonate reds. One passed last night.
None of the milk lines on any of them would go down.
I started them off on FV with a ratio of 1 FV to 3 parts hot water,
and I let mine sit, I make it up in advance.
I have always added Ultra Boost
and did so this time too.
They were all keeping their milk lines after hours of being fed.

Sunday night I started them all on the Goat Milk formula, with no transition.
The thing that strikes me odd, is that with the GM formula, I hardly see any milk line
at all, and definitely when I go to feed 2 hours later, it is totally gone.

Here is little Robbie about an hour before he passed.
He was last fed about 7 hours prior.
I was hydrating him, but did not feel comfortable giving him more formula
with such a huge milk line still visible.
The milk line is going to his side and onto his back area too.

211956211957

Oh God Nancy, I know this just breaks your heart, it does mine as well :grouphug:Love_Icon

[keetz1205]

Same thing was happening with Barney and Betty (about a week old when I got them) on 32/40 with Ultra Boost. I switched them 20/50 after no weight gain and now they're gaining like champs.

[Nancy in New York]

Same thing was happening with Barney and Betty (about a week old when I got them) on 32/40 with Ultra Boost. I switched them 20/50 after no weight gain and now they're gaining like champs.

Then I wonder if it's with the 32/40 as some members were discussing this in Jackie's thread this morning. I will find the links, and post them here.

[Nancy in New York]

Actually I am just going to post what Jackie said this morning rather than give the links, you can read it right here, instead of searching.

good morning KW... here's my mini mosh...
had to switch to Goatsmilk formula... the FV isn't cutting it anymore... done with it.
Just sits there in the gut, no digestion... can't have slow development due to formula and poop issues...
they are all doing better!...even my sick little coma baby.
See ya this afternoon?

Then Kelly Brady posted this.

Jackie you look like a million bucks girl. Love the hair.

Of course the squirrels always look like a million:Love_Icon

Recently tried to change Stelly to 32/40. It did not go well. Not only did she not like the change which is normal (even done gradually), but it gave her tummy problems.

We went back to 20/50 and all resumed normal. It believe it is the reason that I switched Stelly to 20/50 as a baby. My 32/40 didn't do well with her as a pinky.

Long story shorter 32/40 FV has not been great at my house either. My 20/50 is great and Stelly was raised on the 20/50 from a pink up. Also current cute fur balls, Gage and Tucker are lovin their 20/50

[janiemcm]

If you're looking for input, I have a pinkie here and for 3 days now, the milk line has not gone away. I've been watering down the formula trying to get rid of the line, but to no avail. Didn't know what to do - but now I do! Luckily, I do have 20/50 here, so will switch at the next feeding. hopefully I'm not too late.

I'm so so glad that I decided to browse the threads!! Endless thanks for bringing this up!:thankyou

[Unikorngrrl]

I'm having trouble with it too. Mine all still have their umbilical stump. I got Dysen a week ago today and Lyra and Lynk 5 days ago. It takes at least 5 hrs for them to digest. I've had to massage and massage and massage and massage their little tummies. The yogurt added was ALL I found that helped... I know they're over 5 days old now but they are apparently under 10 days. Scary, glad we made it through ok...

IR, I just opened my bag of 32/40. Do you think I should call Henry's and ask for them to exchange it?!? I have enough 20/50 to get us through...or just stick with it since we seem ok for now?!?

[farrelli]

Uni, can you just switch to GM for a week or two and then switch back later?

[Unikorngrrl]

I'm not sure farrelli. I'm kind of nervous now. Keeping a VERY close eye on them. Milk line from 11 pm hasn't moved, but it's usually gone after about 5 hours. They're crying now as though they're hungry. I'm thinking about going to get the Goat's Milk ingredients now. Feeling like it's better safe than sorry. I would be terribly upset if anything happened to my angels.

[Rhapsody]

I have never lost a pinkie to FV 32/40 that was younger than 5 days old..... and the only thing I can
see that I do differently is that I mixed my formula as needed, therefore, it is fresh at every feeding
and never has to sit (or settle) in between each feedings.

I dont add any thing to their FV until they are 4 weeks old. (no boost, no yogurt, no cream)

[Unikorngrrl]

Apparently this is a recent issue. Mine still have a milk line but are smacking and squeaking to eat. I only mix 4 teaspoons at a time for all 3 and Darby. It only lasts maybe 2-3 feedings. All I know for sure is that I need for you guys that have done this for years to tell me for sure what I need to do. We need a standard before we lose more babies please...

[Nancy in New York]

This is NOT a recent issue.
This has been discussed openly for the past couple of years.
Pappy and Wonkawillie, (AND OTHERS) have noticed problems with some of their
little ones and stricktly go with the GM formula until eyes open.
When something works you stay with it, and up until now,
I thought it was working for me.
Looking back I lost two neonates last year that were on 32/40 and UB.
I remember then seeing that the line had never completely gone away,
but close enough that I felt comfortable feeding again.

What I have done now is switched them over to the GM formula immediately,
with NO transition.

My three remaining neonate reds are doing fantastic. I see NO milk line when
I go to feed again, and they are clearly taking more at each feeding.
I will be sticking with the GM formula for a few more weeks, and then slowly
introduce the FV back.
If I encounter a problem then, I will get them off immediately, until eyes open. (OR NOT?)

[island rehabber]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! :shakehead) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....

[Jackie in Tampa]

I see this as a BIG issue. If I don't like the way it is digesting in a sq, then I don't.
It is not going to be used here. Bigs or littles... it looks like cement to me.
I had this issue last year as well...lost two that I will always question.


... glad this is no longer in the closet....
the goats milk is working well..

If it's questionable about how well does GM do full term... my Banana is one that I raised solely on GM formula...
she's big bad smart and thrives for 7 years in the wild, litter after litter... she is perfect.

diluting the FV more lessens the nutrition...not an option.
http://i1.cpcache.com/product/150031542/got_goat_womens_long_sleeve_dark_tshirt.jpg?color= Black&height=460&width=460&qv=90


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[pappy1264]

What I have been doing is gm/yogurt until they are a couple weeks old, then I slowly start adding in fv, diluted at first, keep them on that until 5 weeks/eyes are open. I have been doing this not only in squirrels, but other critters as well (George has been raised strictly on the gm recipe and he has done AMAZING!) GM is so easily digestible, and although it doesn't have enough fat on its own, that can be added in (although I choose to only do the gm/yogurt with the little ones, as I think the heavy cream can cause potty issues.) I have found this works amazingly. They digest it, but still get the extra vitamins and such in the fv, which by being mixed with the gm/yogurt, it is always 'diluted'. Not had one issue since I started doing this. And so everyone knows, I did discuss this in great detail with Nick. He said if that is working, to keep doing that. He was not sure what was causing the issues, but I have seen it across the board and I believe with everything in my soul, that is why Frank, Furter and Bean had the issues they did. God surely was watching over them for them to have pulled through. I will now only feed ALL babies this way.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I am happy it will be something you all can work around... not me... ONE PITCHER a day of tolerated nutritional source...
I am not able to have kids with peanut allergies or milk issues... I do 40+ sqs alone each season., every season.
there will not be chocolate milk for this one and skim for that one...:sanp3:grin2

one for all and all for one!
can you see me at 3am reading milk jugs...no......:nono:rotfl
thank goodness pickle juice is green...:grin3

[CritterMom]

Yes, this has been discussed for some time. I have assumed that it was more IR's extreme proficiency with pinkies and perhaps a teeny bit NYC public water high quality that was the reason she was not having the issues so many others were having.

So the difference between the two formulas is that 32/40 has more protein and less fat than has. Can we assume that perhaps there is a problem with the protein source for this formula that isn't showing up in the 20/50 because there is less overall protein in it?

Of course, the babies NEED that additional protein when they are in the pre-eye open stage - and what would boost that in the 20/50? It is easy to add fat; less easy to add protein.

I am eager to hear what Nick has to say about this. I used 32/40 plus heavy cream and yogurt for Laz with no issues, but I have had that 32/40 for some time - I keep all that stuff in the freezer...mine may have pre-dated what is going on, because clearly SOMETHING is different now... That said, I mix mine with nearly boiling water and then cool it with the HC before adding yogurt and mix VERY well and then let it sit in the fridge before using...and it requires stirring before I do, which tells me that there are solids that are NOT being dissolved in it - they are just going into solution when it is stirred and then precipitating out when it sits. Since this is the basis of the problems with esbilac, it should concern all of us...

[CritterMom]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! :shakehead) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....


Maura, I can get the powdered goats milk at my local supermarket in the natural foods section. I would think that would be the best solution - keep the powder in the freezer like you do the FV powder and mix just what is needed for the day.
http://www.vitacost.com/meyenberg-powdered-goat-milk-12-oz

[Charley Chuckles]

My bag is good through Dec. 31, 2014....but maybe I should dilute it more just in case, it is just for LG but I know sometimes her poops are whitish cement like Jackie mentioned :sanp3 Can I use yogurt in it :dono I know she will be 2 soon, but she still want's her ba ba :tilt

[Nancy in New York]

Yes, this has been discussed for some time. I have assumed that it was more IR's extreme proficiency with pinkies and perhaps a teeny bit NYC public water high quality that was the reason she was not having the issues so many others were having.

So the difference between the two formulas is that 32/40 has more protein and less fat than has. Can we assume that perhaps there is a problem with the protein source for this formula that isn't showing up in the 20/50 because there is less overall protein in it?

Of course, the babies NEED that additional protein when they are in the pre-eye open stage - and what would boost that in the 20/50? It is easy to add fat; less easy to add protein.

I am eager to hear what Nick has to say about this. I used 32/40 plus heavy cream and yogurt for Laz with no issues, but I have had that 32/40 for some time - I keep all that stuff in the freezer...mine may have pre-dated what is going on, because clearly SOMETHING is different now... That said, I mix mine with nearly boiling water and then cool it with the HC before adding yogurt and mix VERY well and then let it sit in the fridge before using...and it requires stirring before I do, which tells me that there are solids that are NOT being dissolved in it - they are just going into solution when it is stirred and then precipitating out when it sits. Since this is the basis of the problems with esbilac, it should concern all of us...

I also premix mine and let it sit. I do it up ahead
all of the time, at least a day before, sometimes I do larger
batches and freeze. NEVER had problems, or perhaps I did last year.

What I did notice, and I even wrote about it.....was that I preload my syringes.(hate to keep the little ones waiting :grin)
When I did large numbers of squirrels, I had up to 70 preloaded syringes at a time,
so they wouldn't have to wait. Last year I had to stop this practice.

I noticed that the ones that sat there for say, 30 minutes, all clogged in the
nipple. When I squeezed the end of the nipple,
the formula came out like cake writing decoration in a straight little line.
Not every single one that sat, but enough so that I no longer preload that many.
This tells me that even when premixed a day ahead, it seperates and clogs the nipples,
if it clogs the nipples, it clogs the babies.

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Should i keep feeding Piti The 32/40 ultra boost mix?.i know he's not a pinky no more but now i'm worried. should i go get goat milk? i have two full unopened bag of the stuff. i dont want to take any chances.

[island rehabber]

HLS, if it ain't broke don't fix it. PiTi is doing wonderfully and he's older. My guys are all on the same mex you're feeding and they're perfect. This is SPECIFICALLY an issue with neonates -- 1-7 days old.

[Anne]

IR, you can freeze goat's milk! Pour it into an ice cube tray and freeze away. Both diluted canned and fresh-it doesn't matter.
:thumbsup

[Jackie in Tampa]

IR, you can freeze goat's milk! Pour it into an ice cube tray and freeze away. Both diluted canned and fresh-it doesn't matter.
:thumbsupI freeze mine too anne, ...and you really need to.....
BECAUSE, GM, no matter what form, is good only 72 hours once opened... ..
NEVER leave GM or anything for that matter in a metal can in the fridge...very bad....
I do not add anything before freezing, I thaw and then add my yogurt and or Heavy Cream.
Anne are you using GM or FV? for what ages? what about the flyers?

[Unikorngrrl]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! :shakehead) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....


Yes, you can freeze it and they usually suggest in an ice tray so that you can take small amounts out at a time.

[Nancy in New York]

I freeze mine too anne, ...and you really need to.....
BECAUSE, GM, no matter what form, is good only 72 hours once opened... ..
NEVER leave GM or anything for that matter in a metal can in the fridge...very bad....
I do not add anything before freezing, I thaw and then add my yogurt and or Heavy Cream.
Anne are you using GM or FV? for what ages? what about the flyers?

I didn't know that it was only good for 72 hours once opened.
I bought fresh and thought it was good until the expiration, which is in September. :eek
correction, it is the sell by date of septemeber

[Nancy in New York]

Jackie this is what I bought. Is this ok?
It says do not buy after a certain date, but nowhere
on the carton does it say that it's only good for 72 hours.
Should I discard?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14001.jpg (http://s673.photobucket.com/user/nancym518/media/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14001.jpg.html)http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14002.jpg (http://s673.photobucket.com/user/nancym518/media/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14002.jpg.html)

[Unikorngrrl]

NiNY that is a sell by date. Once it has been opened it begins to grow other bacteria, etc... After opening it is only supposed to be fed for 72 hrs. Hence freezing in ice cubes.

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

HLS, if it ain't broke don't fix it. PiTi is doing wonderfully and he's older. My guys are all on the same mex you're feeding and they're perfect. This is SPECIFICALLY an issue with neonates -- 1-7 days old.

Ok.I'm still omitting Ultra boost. seems his bowl movements changed as soon it was administered. I give him a little water ever 24 hours,and he REALLY loves it. About 2 cc's maybe more.

[Junior]

I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

**** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

Good Luck !!!
Christy

[Unikorngrrl]

I contacted Henry's and they gave me an instant store credit!! AWESOME customer service they have!!! Very pleased!! Already placed a new order!!

[farrelli]

Do you prepare it at high heat and let it sit? Also, how do you tell old from new? We just have so many people coming in feeding Esbilac already that it would be good to know how to tell them if it's safe and how to prepare it in situations where they can't find GM or anything else for the time being. Thanks.

[Junior]

Here are pictures of Sage......First one is when I got her. Picked them up late on Friday the 3rd of August, this picture was taken on the 4th. The second picture was taken this morning - 10 days later. She was 34 grams at intake and weighted in at 74 grams this morning. That is 40 grams in 10 days.....even I am impressed with that.
212056212057

[Junior]

Hi Farrelli - I get the hottest water straight out of the tap......and even microwave it (1/4 cup water for 15 seconds) if I have to. Then I mix my powder, shake, let it cool for just a second and then add my cream. I have NEVER had an issue with curdling so far.

The Caseys at Ewildagain.org (?) have the study on mixing with the hottest water possible.....not boiling by any means but hot enough to break apart the molecules that are not as water soluble. Apparently that is why Esbilace was such a bear to mix several years ago was from the butterfat....

I also try to mix at least an hour before feeding but sometimes that doesn't always happen.

Just tell people if they have not purchased a can yet that it HAS to have Dried Whey Protein CONCENTRATE (3rd ingredient on the list on the can).

If they buy the old stuff you will be battling the same old issues......diarrhea!!!

[stosh2010]

I also premix mine and let it sit. I do it up ahead
all of the time, at least a day before, sometimes I do larger
batches and freeze. NEVER had problems, or perhaps I did last year.

What I did notice, and I even wrote about it.....was that I preload my syringes.(hate to keep the little ones waiting :grin)
When I did large numbers of squirrels, I had up to 70 preloaded syringes at a time,
so they wouldn't have to wait. Last year I had to stop this practice.

I noticed that the ones that sat there for say, 30 minutes, all clogged in the
nipple. When I squeezed the end of the nipple,
the formula came out like cake writing decoration in a straight little line.
Not every single one that sat, but enough so that I no longer preload that many.
This tells me that even when premixed a day ahead, it seperates and clogs the nipples,
if it clogs the nipples, it clogs the babies.
Nancy ,when I had to pre-load and let syringes sit a while...I had the CLOGGING problem also.
I solved it by loading the syringes---adding the nipples---and not filling the nipples with the Fox Valley.
I kept the syringes in warm water..and as I removed each syringe...I placed the nipple in my lips--pushed the plunger to insure it wasn't clogged and was flowing smoothly...and then offered it to my waiting squirrels.

I found that my clogged syringes dropped by 90 %....
Over the years I've probably drank a POUND of FV myself...

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy ,when I had to pre-load and let syringes sit a while...I had the CLOGGING problem also.
I solved it by loading the syringes---adding the nipples---and not filling the nipples with the Fox Valley.
I kept the syringes in warm water..and as I removed each syringe...I placed the nipple in my lips--pushed the plunger to insure it wasn't clogged and was flowing smoothly...and then offered it to my waiting squirrels.

I found that my clogged syringes dropped by 90 %....
Over the years I've probably drank a POUND of FV myself...

Great idea stosh, thanks for sharing.
But since you had clogged nipples also,
that would suggest to us how fast this
"settles" and clogs, which is not good for the babies. UGH!

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Would it be ok to start giving Piti Goat milk exclusively tomorrow? I'm very worried. He should be fatter. I think i remember giving Chi Chi Kitty formula with bananas or yogurt mixed in. She was more plump. I'd like a response.

[farrelli]

Yes, you can switch directly to GM. You will be adding the yogurt and cream though, right? GM is pretty thin as is and squirrels need more fat.

Have you tried the UltraBoost with FV though? Lots of people swear by it and PiTi is past the age of concern with FV, right?

[Unikorngrrl]

Would it be ok to start giving Piti Goat milk exclusively tomorrow? I'm very worried. He should be fatter. I think i remember giving Chi Chi Kitty formula with bananas or yogurt mixed in. She was more plump. I'd like a response.

IR said not to worry if there has been no problem already. I'm sure she said she told you that too. If there is no problem you risk an actual problem by changing up formula unnecessarily!!! "Don't fix what ain't broke" says IR!! NO CAT FORMULA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you would be switching back to FV at a couple of weeks old anyway!!

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Yes, you can switch directly to GM. You will be adding the yogurt and cream though, right? GM is pretty thin as is and squirrels need more fat.

Have you tried the UltraBoost with FV though? Lots of people swear by it and PiTi is past the age of concern with FV, right? I have ultra boost, just wish he would look fatter.

[Nancy in New York]

How much does he weigh, and how old is he again?
You know that you CAN give him more than the 5-7% of body weight.
That is just a guideline for the newbies.
You just have to watch for bloat, but if he wants more, at this age give it.
You don't want hard tummies, that don't go down.
I have never stayed in the rule of thump when they are older.
IR just posted something about that too. I will look for what she said
about the babies she has now. If I find it, I will post it here. :thumbsup

[farrelli]

Is he gaining consistently on FV? I can't remember how old he is, but if you can see a milk line, does it always disappear before the next feeding?

[Nancy in New York]

I found what Maura posted in another thread.

Sounds like hypoglycemic seizuring -- not enough nutrition. 4cc sounds VERY small as a portion for 6-wk olds. Two of my 2.5wk olds are already up to 6cc per feeding. My 4wk olds, eyes still closed, take 8-10cc per feeding. Yes I know Northern greys are larger than Florida greys, but not twice as large. Also, every 3 hrs for FV at their age is far too often.
We can really help you so much better if we see a pic of them....can you post one? :)

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

He has been gaining weight Consistently. But his skin looks wrinkly at times, i pinch it and it stays, but on his tummy he seems full and good. I give him water 2 times a day,somtimes pedialite. All this talk of caked formula makes me think he might be plugged up. he poops, but its a challenge, he pee's good. wonder if there's something i could mix with the fox valley to ease the bowel movements without changing the eating habits. can i put yougurt in his fox valley?

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

I'm thinking he's 5 to 6 weeks.

[farrelli]

If he's wrinkly and his skin is tenting, he sounds like he's a bit dehydrated. That would not only cause problems pooping (and potentially constipation), it would impede proper digestion of the formula. You might want to offer water (possibly with a bit of sugar in it) between feedings or dilute the FV a bit and offer more or more often. Pedialyte isn't great due to the salt and generally shouldn't be used unless there has been electrolyte loss, such as with diarrhea.

Nancy?

[cordie]

I have been using half fv and half canine replacer, works great, good growth etc.







As a wildlife rehabilitator and admin here, I can't live in denial anymore.
There IS a problem with FV and very young pinkies....LESS THAN 5 days old.

For whatever reason, rehabbers all over the country are having difficulty with FV 32/40, even when combined with Ultra Boost, not being digested by very young pinky squirrels. The stuff stays in their gut for hours and hours....the milk line never moves. I saw it in my little Robbie, who died. Nancy in NY had the same experience with a pinky red, who died. UDoWhat had a similar experience and reported to me that others in her area were baffled by the same syndrome in their neonates on FV.

First off: if you are NOT rehabbing squirrels younger than 5 days old please do not panic about this. In fact, all of my six came in at about a week old or older, except Robbie, and they have been on FV and Ultra Boost and are doing GREAT. This is strictly a neonate issue, which most of you will not encounter.

I haven't spoken to Nick at FV yet, but I will. In the meantime, should you get in a very young pinky, it would be wise to start him on the Goat's milk formula and transition to FV at around 10 days old, to be on the safe side. (10 days is when the umbilical stump typically falls off. )

I welcome comments, corrections and suggestions to this thread; this is an ongoing discussion about an extremely serious issue and we need everyone's input.

:thankyou
IR

[Nancy in New York]

I'm thinking he's 5 to 6 weeks.

Larry how often do you feed?
What is his weight?
Have his poops ever been golden colored?
Dark poop is an indication of dehydration.

I have ALWAYS had great luck with the older
babies on FV and Ultra Boost. That does NOT
mean that everyone will. Just like this year,
it is NOT working for my neonates.

Do you feed the 32/40 AND Ultra Boost?

We are NOT endorsing anything here, just sharing
what works and doesn't work for us.

BUT if you feel that PiTi is having issues, lets deal
with them.
Can you post a photo of his tummy before you feed?

Are his eyes opened yet?

[Nancy in New York]

Larry, go to this thread and see these babies.
6 are Maura's that she got in when they were tiny,
one is mine.

I babysat them until spring release last year. :grin:grin3
Look at the sizes and the bellies, just scroll through fast
if you wish.
These were all raised on Fox Valley, Ultra Boost from the
first day.

As I said I am not endorsing it, perhaps it has changed.
I currently have my red neonates on the Goat's Milk formula.

This is what Fox Valley babies used to look like, and in Maura's
case, this year they still do.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?35226-IR-s-Baby-Andrea-and-all-the-Babes-from-the-Bronx/page7

Also, here is a picture of FV poops.:grin

212158

[Sissy]

Just a thought, as I haven't read the entire thread. I am seeing the non moving milk lines in my 3 week olds also. I'm using 32/40 fv. I have also seen the fat clumping in the bottom of the cup even after heating it to above needed temps. My 2 girls still seemed to be hungry even with the milk lines still showing. In desperation I used mineral oil in hopes to get their systems moving and mixed the 32/40 3:1. Within 12 hrs they started pooping more and the milk lines have disappeared. I don't know if it will work for everyone but it has for me.

[CritterMom]

Why doesn't Larry just transition Piti to 20/50 with the ultraboost?

[Nancy in New York]

Why doesn't Larry just transition Piti to 20/50 with the ultraboost?

Would that be too much fat?
Are we thinking that it may be the 32/40 that is
the problem?

[Nancy in New York]

Just a thought, as I haven't read the entire thread. I am seeing the non moving milk lines in my 3 week olds also. I'm using 32/40 fv. I have also seen the fat clumping in the bottom of the cup even after heating it to above needed temps. My 2 girls still seemed to be hungry even with the milk lines still showing. In desperation I used mineral oil in hopes to get their systems moving and mixed the 32/40 3:1. Within 12 hrs they started pooping more and the milk lines have disappeared. I don't know if it will work for everyone but it has for me.
Mine were also hungry after waiting for the line to disappear. I was unsure how
long to push it without formula, so I hydrated again and fed formula a couple hours late.
Line was still there, but had gone down considerably, but that was after close to
5-6 hours! UGH!
By the way, these are ~10 gram pinkie reds.

[Sissy]

I didn't wait 12 hrs to feed them NIN, I couldn't do that to them. I continued feeding as normal every 3 hrs. I didn't give them the full amount for their weight because I didn't want to tax their systems anymore than necessary. It took 2 treatments of mineral oil before they started pooping lots of hard poops. I only gave a few drops each time.

[CritterMom]

Would that be too much fat?
Are we thinking that it may be the 32/40 that is
the problem?

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, it seems people don't have the same issues with 20/50. I know it is all keetz uses - from day 1. I wouldn't be concerned by the additional fat - that is what you are adding when you add ultra-boost - but the protein levels are higher in the formula for the wee ones (32/40) for a REASON I assume - like they need that protein at that stage of development... That said, Piti is within a few weeks of the point where they recommend switching to the 20/50 anyway...

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

He weighs 48 grams. here are some pics. hard to get him sit still.

[island rehabber]

Why doesn't Larry just transition Piti to 20/50 with the ultraboost?

Exactly. That's what mine are on and they're doing great. I think I mentioned elsewhere that I had no Ultra Boost on hand when my first pinkies came in this season because they were 2 weeks early :eek....during the time I waited for the UB to arrive, they were on straight 32/40 and did not gain much weight at all; in fact two of the littles lost a few grams. After 4 days on the Ultra Boost they were transformed into pudgy little pinks. :thumbsup

[CritterMom]

Exactly. That's what mine are on and they're doing great. I think I mentioned elsewhere that I had no Ultra Boost on hand when my first pinkies came in this season because they were 2 weeks early :eek....during the time I waited for the UB to arrive, they were on straight 32/40 and did not gain much weight at all; in fact two of the littles lost a few grams. After 4 days on the Ultra Boost they were transformed into pudgy little pinks. :thumbsup

OK, just so I know for sure (and Larry too), you are feeding your young ones 20/50 WITH Ultraboost right?

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

OK, just so I know for sure (and Larry too), you are feeding your young ones 20/50 WITH Ultraboost right?
Yes. I feed him every three to 4 hours. I give him one of those little syringes full of water every 12 hours. he really still acts thirsty.

[CritterMom]

Yes. I feed him every three to 4 hours. I give him one of those little syringes full of water every 12 hours. he really still acts thirsty.

Sorry Larry - that was confusing. I believe you are feeding Piti the 32/40 with ultraboost, right?

I am almost sure (and am trying to verify) that Island rehabber is using the Fox Valley for slightly older babies - the 20/50 with ultraboost for her young ones, and I am thinking that you should think about doing with Piti too.

Question for you: You said he weighs 48 grams and you feed every 3-4 hours. How many cc's does he eat each time? Does he stop eating on his own or do you stop him?

[farrelli]

Seeing that he's so young, I'm wondering if you can see the milk line not disappearing. That seems to be a commonality with the ones not thriving on FV.

[Unikorngrrl]

OK guys. Mine were 2-3 days old, if that, when I got them. Been on 32/40 the whole time with Ultraboost and yogurt (removed yogurt a couple of days ago). Started the yogurt for constipation about 1 day after I received them. Was worried b/c it was taking them 5+ hrs to digest and asked IR's opinion. She was already done for the night and didn't answer not to change (don't fix what ain't broke) until morning and I had already switched them to 20/50. They are TERRIBLY constipated today. Have already changed them back to 32/40, and massaged and massaged and massaged and massaged since 3 am. Have finally gotten 2 back to normal and still working on Dysen but his poop is so hard I can't squish it with my fingers. Just an FYI. Gave Nutri-Cal to prolong feeding for an hour and to lubricate the GI tract, and simethicone to help with bloating. None had bloat, but we were headed there. Not worried anymore b/c they've pooped A LOT and bellies are good and squishie!! Just letting everyone know my experience...

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Sorry Larry - that was confusing. I believe you are feeding Piti the 32/40 with ultraboost, right?

I am almost sure (and am trying to verify) that Island rehabber is using the Fox Valley for slightly older babies - the 20/50 with ultraboost for her young ones, and I am thinking that you should think about doing with Piti too.

Question for you: You said he weighs 48 grams and you feed every 3-4 hours. How many cc's does he eat each time? Does he stop eating on his own or do you stop him?

(you are feeding Piti the 32/40 with ultraboost, right?) Yes. he stops eating on his own, it depends though. ive been giving him 1 to 2 cc's each feeding.

[CritterMom]

(you are feeding Piti the 32/40 with ultraboost, right?) Yes. he stops eating on his own, it depends though. ive been giving him 1 to 2 cc's each feeding.

OK, he needs more food per feeding. Using the 5-7% of body weight rule, he should be eating 2.5 to 3.5cc at EACH feeding.

Sometimes they stop before then because the formula gets cool. I would suggest loading up 4 1cc syringes with nipples already on them with formula, put them nipple side down in a coffee cup or something that will hold heat full of quite warm water. That way when he is done with syringe #1 you can immediately give him syringe #2 and it will still be nice and warm from sitting in the warm water.

Increase the amount you are feeding him. Start shooting for 2.5cc and if all goes well try to push him up to 3 then 3.5 and so on. As his weight increases he needs more and more food. he general rule is to feed 5 to 7% of their body weight, so since Piti is 48 grams, 48 times 5% is 2.4cc; 45 times 7% is just under 3.4cc. If he is doing the 7% and wants more, let him have a little more and watch his poops - as long as they are looking good he can have as much as he wants.

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

OK, he needs more food per feeding. Using the 5-7% of body weight rule, he should be eating 2.5 to 3.5cc at EACH feeding.

Sometimes they stop before then because the formula gets cool. I would suggest loading up 4 1cc syringes with nipples already on them with formula, put them nipple side down in a coffee cup or something that will hold heat full of quite warm water. That way when he is done with syringe #1 you can immediately give him syringe #2 and it will still be nice and warm from sitting in the warm water.

Increase the amount you are feeding him. Start shooting for 2.5cc and if all goes well try to push him up to 3 then 3.5 and so on. As his weight increases he needs more and more food. he general rule is to feed 5 to 7% of their body weight, so since Piti is 48 grams, 48 times 5% is 2.4cc; 45 times 7% is just under 3.4cc. If he is doing the 7% and wants more, let him have a little more and watch his poops - as long as they are looking good he can have as much as he wants.

Thank you crittermom.

[Unikorngrrl]

OK, he needs more food per feeding. Using the 5-7% of body weight rule, he should be eating 2.5 to 3.5cc at EACH feeding.

Sometimes they stop before then because the formula gets cool. I would suggest loading up 4 1cc syringes with nipples already on them with formula, put them nipple side down in a coffee cup or something that will hold heat full of quite warm water. That way when he is done with syringe #1 you can immediately give him syringe #2 and it will still be nice and warm from sitting in the warm water.

Increase the amount you are feeding him. Start shooting for 2.5cc and if all goes well try to push him up to 3 then 3.5 and so on. As his weight increases he needs more and more food. he general rule is to feed 5 to 7% of their body weight, so since Piti is 48 grams, 48 times 5% is 2.4cc; 45 times 7% is just under 3.4cc. If he is doing the 7% and wants more, let him have a little more and watch his poops - as long as they are looking good he can have as much as he wants.

:thumbsup :goodpost

[island rehabber]

Also: remember that some babies are what I call "Half-time Poopers" :grin. They need to be pottied before they take all the formula they really want. When they stop eating, potty them. Most of the time you'll find that they take another 1- 1.5cc after that's over with!

[newsquirrelmommy]

Also: remember that some babies are what I call "Half-time Poopers" :grin. They need to be pottied before they take all the formula they really want. When they stop eating, potty them. Most of the time you'll find that they take another 1- 1.5cc after that's over with!

I agree with this IR. My little guys have done this too. Once they start getting squirmy after the 1st syringe i potty them and sure enough they unload then back the syringe they go and theyre good til the last one. Then of course more pottying:grin3

[island rehabber]

OK, just so I know for sure (and Larry too), you are feeding your young ones 20/50 WITH Ultraboost right?

Nope -- I was feeding everyone 32/40 with Ultra Boost. This past Tuesday I switched everyone to 20/50 with excellent results....more increased eating and easier pooping. :tilt

My apologies for the confusion above. This has been a very stressful week for non-squirrel reasons. Forgive me. :hidechair

[UDoWhat]

So .... it seems that too much fat in the 32/40 formula is not the problem. :thinking The 20/50 formula has 10% increased fat over the 32/40 formula. Some locals in the area were fairly convinced that too much fat was difficult for pinkies to digest. Now, I do wonder what may be the problem with 32/40 and itty bittys??

[island rehabber]

So .... it seems that too much fat in the 32/40 formula is not the problem. :thinking The 20/50 formula has 10% increased fat over the 32/40 formula. Some locals in the area were fairly convinced that too much fat was difficult for pinkies to digest. Now, I do wonder what may be the problem with 32/40 and itty bittys??

Marty, I'm wondering if it's the PROTEIN factor in the 32/40, not the fat. 32/40 has the higher protein....what if whatever it is that FV is using is a bad product? Who knows where, ultimately, it comes from? (ugh CHINA ugh!) Protein could clog up neonatal GI tracts.

[UDoWhat]

Marty, I'm wondering if it's the PROTEIN factor in the 32/40, not the fat. 32/40 has the higher protein....what if whatever it is that FV is using is a bad product? Who knows where, ultimately, it comes from? (ugh CHINA ugh!) Protein could clog up neonatal GI tracts.

Yes, the protein could very well be a factor in this strange and heartbreaking twist with 32/40. I did wonder myself if it could have just been a bad product in this batch of formula??? Or could somehow the labeling been switched, IDK. I am just grasping at straws here in an effort to make sense of it. For the first time in years I turned down 2 pinkies last week. :Love_Icon:Love_Icon
It does seem very possible that it is the protein and not the fat. Particularly, if the 20/50 proves to turn this pinkie problem around. I, personally, do not want to jump to conclusions because in past years the 32/40 FV was perfect for pinkies and has always been the formula suggested by Fox Valley for neonates and up to 4 week old squirrels.

[Sissy]

I was able to turn my 2 3wk old grey babies around but sadly my little flying squirrel girl didn't make it. She was less than a week old. I was able to get the milk line moving in her gut but it wasn't fast or soon enough I'm afraid. She lost her battle this morning. RIP: Tiny Angel.
I hope we figure out what is going on with FV before we lose any more babies. Tiny is the one on the right.

212259

[Garden71]

So sorry RIP little flying squirrel girl.:sad

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Oh dear.:shakehead

[UDoWhat]

I was able to turn my 2 3wk old grey babies around but sadly my little flying squirrel girl didn't make it. She was less than a week old. I was able to get the milk line moving in her gut but it wasn't fast or soon enough I'm afraid. She lost her battle this morning. RIP: Tiny Angel.
I hope we figure out what is going on with FV before we lose any more babies.

I am so sorry you lost your teenie one. :Love_Icon We have to figure this out. I lost so many with the Esbilac issues a few years ago. The ones I lost this time were such a heart break. Tiny little ones that came in as healty little pinkies just wanting to live and so happy to take down their formula .... , I am just sick about it. I am working with some others in my area to try to find out something to help. For now the goat milk formula is what I will use. I am looking at the Casey's formula at Wild Again to see if I might try it. I just do not know. :shakehead So very sad.

Marty

[CritterMom]

Has anyone spoken to Nick? If I was in his shoes and read this thread I would break my freaking legs running to see what the problem was. TSB is directly responsible for a LOT of his business and I can't imagine he wants that money stream to dry up. I have never dealt with him at all - I always buy from Henrys - but he has always seems very responsive...

[Nancy in New York]

Has anyone spoken to Nick? If I was in his shoes and read this thread I would break my freaking legs running to see what the problem was. TSB is directly responsible for a LOT of his business and I can't imagine he wants that money stream to dry up. I have never dealt with him at all - I always buy from Henrys - but he has always seems very responsive...

I read that pappy has already called him but I believe that was last year.
Perhaps more rehabbers that do the "big" numbers should call and express their concern.
I think your post is spot on CritterMom. :thumbsup

[UDoWhat]

Has anyone spoken to Nick? If I was in his shoes and read this thread I would break my freaking legs running to see what the problem was. TSB is directly responsible for a LOT of his business and I can't imagine he wants that money stream to dry up. I have never dealt with him at all - I always buy from Henrys - but he has always seems very responsive...

I have several friends in the area that have spoken to him. They have all said the same thing. His answer has been that this is the FIRST he is hearing about this. That was a month ago when I began to sound the alarm within the MWRA so I do not know if he is working to correct this problem or not. He is and has always seemed to be interested in our concerns. Even if only to recommend another of his products as a fix. I do not mean to sound cheeky, I have not spoken with him directly myself, yet. I do believe that many rehabbers in out of the way places have not even figured out that pinkies are dying from a formula issue. Many believe pinkies are hard to rehab and they just die easily. So they think it is just what happens to pinkies.

[Milo's Mom]

Please do not crucify me for saying this, as I am simply sharing what a rehabber told me she was doing to get around the problem. She does hundreds of squirrels a year and she too was having the pinkies bind up and die. She started mixing GME with the FV 32/40 and has not had a problem since. Of course this is after mixing the GME and allowing it to rest for 24 hours. She is mixing it at 50/50 and then when the umbilical stubs fall off she is gradually getting them onto full strength FV some are faster than others but she watches the milk lines and adjusts the transition accordingly.

I know how we all feel about GME, I just thought I would share this information as it does seem to be working for her. Like I said she does hundreds....like between 300-500 babies a year.

[MsOakley]

If you're looking for input, I have a pinkie here and for 3 days now, the milk line has not gone away. I've been watering down the formula trying to get rid of the line, but to no avail. Didn't know what to do - but now I do! Luckily, I do have 20/50 here, so will switch at the next feeding. hopefully I'm not too late.

I'm so so glad that I decided to browse the threads!! Endless thanks for bringing this up!:thankyou

Did the switch to 20/50 make a difference?

[Unikorngrrl]

Did the switch to 20/50 make a difference?

I hope she didn't switch to the 20/50. My guys completely stopped up when I did that. I had to work literally all night long with oil, baths, and massages to get them moving again. Immediately switched them back to the 32/40... I'd suggest the goat's milk recipe, but not the 20/50 AT ALL!!

[island rehabber]

Uni, on the other hand, my guys did much better once I switched everyone to the 20/50, even those who were not quite 3wks old at the time. 20/50 has more fat, and fat gets things moving. I think the switch is certainly worth a try as it seems to cure the problem for many folks.

[island rehabber]

Please do not crucify me for saying this, as I am simply sharing what a rehabber told me she was doing to get around the problem. She does hundreds of squirrels a year and she too was having the pinkies bind up and die. She started mixing GME with the FV 32/40 and has not had a problem since. Of course this is after mixing the GME and allowing it to rest for 24 hours. She is mixing it at 50/50 and then when the umbilical stubs fall off she is gradually getting them onto full strength FV some are faster than others but she watches the milk lines and adjusts the transition accordingly.

I know how we all feel about GME, I just thought I would share this information as it does seem to be working for her. Like I said she does hundreds....like between 300-500 babies a year.

Just to clarify, because it took me a moment to realize it, "GME" is Goat's Milk Esbilac.
I think each one of us who takes in a neonate squirrel is going to have to try to find the alternative that works best for us. I personally am going to try my damndest NOT to give that awful company (Pet Ag) one cent, but I will never criticize those who do in an effort to save their little ones. I plan to give JIT's goat's milk recipe a try next time, if I can find goat's milk anywhere around here. :peace

PS to MM: how is it even physically possible to do 300-500 baby squirrels per year? By herself? I do 15-20 at most, and my entire life has gone to hell in a handbasket other than my rehabbing......can she please share her secret????

[Unikorngrrl]

PS to MM: how is it even physically possible to do 300-500 baby squirrels per year? By herself? I do 15-20 at most, and my entire life has gone to hell in a handbasket other than my rehabbing......can she please share her secret????
[/FONT][/COLOR]

AMEN sistah!! And I only have 7!! LOL

[Jackie in Tampa]

PS to MM: how is it even physically possible to do 300-500 baby squirrels per year? By herself? I do 15-20 at most, and my entire life has gone to hell in a handbasket other than my rehabbing......can she please share her secret????
yeah that... I turn grey skinned and lose so much weight with 40 a season... not even a tube'r could do that many and still mop floors and fill water bottles...
musta been a typo!:grin3

:pokefunny seeing you here at this time IR...
looking at the clock and the posters... it's baby season!:)

[Unikorngrrl]

yeah that... I turn grey skinned and lose so much weight with 40 a season... not even a tube'r could do that many and still mop floors and fill water bottles...
musta been a typo!:grin3

:pokefunny seeing you here at this time IR...
looking at the clock and the posters... it's baby season!:)

This is my normal time Jackie!! It's me looking around wondering where the heck all of you folks came from tonight!! LOL

[MsOakley]

I have to say we've lost an inordinate number of pinkies so far this summer so am following this thread closely. I want to try something different but hear such conflicting reports on what is successful. Have never tried goats milk in any form. What do you think of 1 part Goat's milk to 1 part yogurt and leave out the cream? The heavy whipping sounds a bit much for the pinks. Welcome any opinions.

[Rhapsody]

Not sure if this information will be of any help or not, but I felt the need to add it.....

Many rehabbers among the Opossum circle will not use Fox Valley and the NOS does not recommend FV after they lost a
vast number of baby possums to FV 32/40. I am not sure if Nick knows of this info or not him self, so it might be helpful
if it passed along to him the next time the subject is brought up in a phone conversation.

Carolyn -

[Starfish]

Just to clarify, because it took me a moment to realize it, "GME" is Goat's Milk Esbilac.



Thank you!!

[CritterMom]

I have to say we've lost an inordinate number of pinkies so far this summer so am following this thread closely. I want to try something different but hear such conflicting reports on what is successful. Have never tried goats milk in any form. What do you think of 1 part Goat's milk to 1 part yogurt and leave out the cream? The heavy whipping sounds a bit much for the pinks. Welcome any opinions.

The basic GM formula is:
3 parts fresh goats milk (or reconstituted dry or evaporated)
1 part full fat yogurt
1 part heavt whipping cream

For pinkies, drop the cream entirely at first, then when past the danger stage, slowly phase it in to the formula. They DO need it as they grow - GM and yogurt doesn't have enough fat for them.

You will need tomore frequently - the gots milk is so digestible they go through it faster.

[Fireweed]

Why not write a well-crafted letter to Nick explaining all this and have rehabbers virtually/physically sign it? That way everyone can get the message across in case they wouldn't necessarily have written/called themselves? Of course, calling is a good idea, too. But with a letter you can easily get the message to Nick that MANY rehabbers are having this issue with 32/40... Just a thought.

[Rhapsody]

Why not write a well-crafted letter to Nick explaining all this and have rehabbers virtually/physically sign it? That way everyone can get the message across in case they wouldn't necessarily have written/called themselves?
Of course, calling is a good idea, too. But with a letter you can easily get the message to Nick that MANY rehabbers are having this issue with 32/40... Just a thought.ATM --I have two opossum rehabbers that are willing to include a letter to Nick, if and when one is sent.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

[Milo's Mom]

She has approx. 20 satellite rehabbers plus the day to day volunteers to help at the main campus. She provides all of the syringes, nipples, formula, cage gear, caging, etc...this way she knows exactly who is getting and living in what. She has written directions for each satellite to follow and she is in contact with them daily, per her words to me.

[Starfish]

Why not write a well-crafted letter to Nick explaining all this and have rehabbers virtually/physically sign it? That way everyone can get the message across in case they wouldn't necessarily have written/called themselves? Of course, calling is a good idea, too. But with a letter you can easily get the message to Nick that MANY rehabbers are having this issue with 32/40... Just a thought.

I like your idea.

However, it sounds like there is a prettyfriendly phone relationship as it is. Likely, even simply saying that several rehabbers have had this issue and that the the general concensus is everyone is afraid to use it for your pinks will be enough to get his attention.

That's if I'm understanding the relationship right. If not, under any other circumstance, I agree with following up with the letter.

[Fireweed]

Oh, Nick is great. I've spoken to him several times myself. I'm just thinking it might be easier to get all the info down in a letter--a small report of all the common findings --easier for Nick to digest --easier for rehabbers who won't necessarily make the call. Phone calls should still be made... :thumbsup

[island rehabber]

She has approx. 20 satellite rehabbers plus the day to day volunteers to help at the main campus. She provides all of the syringes, nipples, formula, cage gear, caging, etc...this way she knows exactly who is getting and living in what. She has written directions for each satellite to follow and she is in contact with them daily, per her words to me.

Whew! Thank you.....I was having severely deadly, typical only-child feelings of extreme inferiority there for a minute.....

[SammysMom]

I still am! I could barely take care of one baby and Sammy... It would take a lot more than 20 of me to take care of 300 babies...:rofl4

Whew! Thank you.....I was having severely deadly, typical only-child feelings of extreme inferiority there for a minute.....

[island rehabber]

I still am! I could barely take care of one baby and Sammy... It would take a lot more than 20 of me to take care of 300 babies...

:grin2 Forgot to say that my deadly feelings of inferiority would have been followed by a blood-curdling, competitive obsession that would have led me to PAY every rehabber within 500 miles of me $100 apiece for every one of their squirrel babies, until I had 2-300 or so, and then kill myself trying to raise them all, ALONE, just to prove that I, too, actually could. :rofl4 :sanp3 :rofl4:skwredup

[island rehabber]

Anyway, back to our Fox Valley issue: has anyone tried the goat's milk with Ultra Boost instead of whipping cream? Seems this might be a nice compromise between avoiding the 32/40 and the overly rich whipping cream while still enhancing the GM with more fat.

[Nancy in New York]

Anyway, back to our Fox Valley issue: has anyone tried the goat's milk with Ultra Boost instead of whipping cream? Seems this might be a nice compromise between avoiding the 32/40 and the overly rich whipping cream while still enhancing the GM with more fat.

I actually did try that right after going to the GM. I thought instead of adding heavy cream, I would keep them on Ultra Boost. However, little Robbie was still not digesting it well, while the other three were ok.
I went to the heavy cream, as per the directions, using 3 parts GM 1 part yogurt and 1 part heavy cream. Saddly, it was too late. :(
Now to be really honest, I am scared to go back to FV. I think I will wait until their weights are up, as I saw that sissy lost some little ones that were several weeks old on the Fox Valley.
Something had to have changed, I wish Nick would let us know. Perhaps he is using a different vendor when buying some of his ingredients. Something changed, and we are left scratching our heads.......I am pissed!:madd

And for Nick to say that this is the first he has heard about it, is an untruth. I know of others who have called him, LAST YEAR!

[Chickenlegs]

This is heresay but one of the local rehabbers said there was a discussion at a conference amongst the folks there and one said that PetAg AND Fox Valley had added something that coated the molecules of the product to help improve shelf life and since that time there have been problems. I don't know anything more than that but the rehab person said she mixes both Esbilac and Fox Valley with VERY hot water and shakes the hell out of it several times to break down the offending coating and lets it sit for 8 hours. Has anybody else heard anything about this? I started Pinkman on goatsmilk formula minus the cream and he flat out refused it. A 17 gram pinkie clamped his tiny jaws shut and would not be moved. I mixed the goatsmilk half and half with Fox Valley (shaken not stirred) and he seems to be doing fine. He's on 32/40 full strength now. I watch him closely for problems but thank heavens he hasn't had anything more serious than one bout of soft poop and I think that was overfeeding.

[island rehabber]

You know, folks, we vote with our wallets in this case. When rehabbers stopped buying Esbilac, Pet Ag didn't give a rat's butt because their money is made off of DOG people: big breeders, puppy mills, small breeders, more puppy mills, get it? We were insignifcant to them -- a vocal annoyance, at best. But Fox Valley? Nick doesn't sell in retail stores and he doesn't sell much for dogs and cats -- wildlife is his 'end user' and WE are his core customers. If rehabbers stop buying FV it is gonna HURT, big time. He NEEDS to listen to us. I think we'll get far better results from going to Nick than anyone ever did going to those POS's at Pet Ag. Just my opinion.

[Rhapsody]

Nick doesn't sell in retail stores and he doesn't sell much for dogs and cats -- wildlife is his 'end user' and WE are his core customers.
If rehabbers stop buying FV it is gonna HURT, big time. He NEEDS to listen to us.
I think we'll get far better results from going to Nick than anyone ever did going to those POS's at Pet Ag. Just my opinion.
I AGREE!! --and this is where LETTERS detailing the issues & problems we are having with our baby squirrels (and possums) will come in handy.... for Nick to have in hand to read and consume over and over again until the devastation actually sinks in. We need answers and we need them NOW!! or we STOP buying FV.

[Garden71]

I am worried about a hit on my head...a contract, so I am done talking!
Uncle Guido is real!!!!:grin3

no really...don't use FV......he'll get the message and no this is not the first he has heard of this....he knows.
I say......Buy a Goat!!!!!:grin2

:goodpost
Got to hit him in the pocket. That's the only way they will listen...tinfoil

[IrishHarps]

I want a TSB community goat! They are awesome! Like dogs but with hooves!

[Shewhosweptforest]

Hey guys:wave123 I just got three little ones from Chickenlegs eyes closed, ears still folded back....they are experiencing soft poops...white:dono I talked to CL about the FV controversy I've got them on 50/50 FV/GM should I just go to GM 100% ...my last babies did great on GM until the FV got in:shakehead I'm worried I'm seeing too many babies dying :dono :help

[Nancy in New York]

Hey guys:wave123 I just got three little ones from Chickenlegs eyes closed, ears still folded back....they are experiencing soft poops...white:dono I talked to CL about the FV controversy I've got them on 50/50 FV/GM should I just go to GM 100% ...my last babies did great on GM until the FV got in:shakehead I'm worried I'm seeing too many babies dying :dono :help

I put my remaining 3 little red pinkies ALL on the GM formula. Since yours are already on it, there is no need to transition, just cut out the Fox Valley for now, and if you want when they are older transition them over.
By the way, Jackie never transitions when going to GM formula, even if they aren't on the 50/50. :thumbsup

[Rhapsody]

I say......Buy a Goat!!!!!:grin2I know plenty of people that have goats..... and some are Females. :grin3

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

White poop is usually over feeding but why mix when you can do the GM.

I am interested in knowing all the closet Goaters out there.
Let me be one to come out of the closet and say
Peaches was a goater, I had gotten FV because I was told to do so.
BUT I liked the poop, the way they slept and just how the grew in general.
I have goated most that came through me first.
It is the universal food for ALL babies!!!
When Peaches eat Simon's diaper rash cream and was throwing up with diarrhea, she got goats milk for her wretched little tummy until her system quieted down. It soothes it is good medicine not just food.
Benny was another sick lethargic baby, he got pedealyte, the ensure then goats milk formula. He is healthy and in Jackie trees.
Pearl also was a goater, she liked it better, she was not one to like a syringe.
There I have said it, I went against what I was told to do and did what seemed best, I think we all though for a while it was the baby who wasn't reacting right , not thinking the product wasn't right, we didn't want to think that.
Glad I can be open now, you need a theme for the new gathering T-Shirt
My Babies are Goaters!!

I did not like FV I liked goat milk , still do.

[MsOakley]

I'm going to experiment with the GM formula on 2 babies who couldn't get much worse. They're 2-3 weeks now but another rehabber had them since pinkhood.She turned them over to me because they weren't thriving. They were on a mix of 32/40 and ultraboost, not gaining, not digesting and one had diarrhea. Will be out today and hope to procure the appropriate ingredients. Will keep you posted.

[Rhapsody]

I am interested in knowing all the closet Goaters out there.
I was a GOAT MILK baby...... couldn't drink any thing else.

:poke :grin3 :grin3

[Shewhosweptforest]

I put my remaining 3 little red pinkies ALL on the GM formula. Since yours are already on it, there is no need to transition, just cut out the Fox Valley for now, and if you want when they are older transition them over.
By the way, Jackie never transitions when going to GM formula, even if they aren't on the 50/50. :thumbsup

Thanks Nancy I'll do that...this last feeding one of the girls actually had a few tiny pellets and then changed back over to the soft white :shakehead

:thankyou:Love_Icon Ya!

[Shewhosweptforest]

White poop is usually over feeding but why mix when you can do the GM.
.

When I got the babies Fri. night they had been on the FV 32/40 so I've been transitioning ...first 75/25 then 50/50 ..but I'm just going to skip this step and go straight to GM :thumbsup
CL was afraid they may have been over fed ...but I've been following the 5-7% strictly:dono

[island rehabber]

Goat's Milk sounds all fine and good and I'm happy you guys have such great success with it.

BUT......

...what if you live where there is NO walmart
NO Whole Foods
NO health food shop
NO Trader Joe's
...and only an Independent Grocer's Association (IGA) that passes as a "supermarket" on this island, where ALL the dairy products are five minutes past their sell-by date and anything perishable MUST be bought on the mainland 10 miles away?

I think you can understand my reluctance to start babies on GM and then run into an impossible situation when I run out and there's none to be had and what do I do? .....guess I could buy and freeze it, right?

[Nancy in New York]

Goat's Milk sounds all fine and good and I'm happy you guys have such great success with it.

BUT......

...what if you live where there is NO walmart
NO Whole Foods
NO health food shop
NO Trader Joe's
...and only an Independent Grocer's Association (IGA) that passes as a "supermarket" on this island, where ALL the dairy products are five minutes past their sell-by date and anything perishable MUST be bought on the mainland 10 miles away?

I think you can understand my reluctance to start babies on GM and then run into an impossible situation when I run out and there's none to be had and what do I do? .....guess I could buy and freeze it, right?



I totally understand what you're saying Maura, but this is the same problem with the Fox Valley, it is NOT available in stores.
I have ordered the powdered GM on line through amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=meyenberg+powdered+goats+milk&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=2880085501&hvpos=1t3&hvexid=&hvnetw=s&hvrand=469434991535580735&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_50r0jl3p1c_b

Last year I actually bought a can of powdered because of the problems I was hearing about FV....but I never needed to open it,
since the FV was working wonderfully. I went to use it this year and it was expired, so I tossed it. Perhaps if I had put it in the freezer it would
have been alright.

[farrelli]

I think that NY has a lot of ethnic peoples of Hispanic and east Indian decent, but I don't know if that's true in your area. This was also true of my neighborhood in Chicago and many of even their bodegas had GM. Just a thought to check those out if you haven't already.

[Rhapsody]

OK Every One - I just got a 3 week old squirrel in and I still have about a half bag of FV left and while I feel safe in using
the bag of FV already in my possession I am not sure if I should order a second bag now or just try raising this little boy
fully on the GM recipe and see how it goes........ WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

...... he is on Homemade Pedialyte for the night. :)

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Why risk it, you see the threads with issues.
I vote for the goat :grin2

PS...........canned goats milk is jut a good

[Rhapsody]

Why risk it, you see the threads with issues.
I vote for the goat :grin2

PS...........canned goats milk is jut a goodThanks for the Reply...... I am asking as I have never had any issues (and) he is past the 5 day mark.

Can is what I use when I need IT!! :)

[MJS]

OK Every One - I just got a 3 week old squirrel in and I still have about a half bag of FV left and while I feel safe in using
the bag of FV already in my possession I am not sure if I should order a second bag now or just try raising this little boy
fully on the GM recipe and see how it goes........ WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

...... he is on Homemade Pedialyte for the night. :)

I MAY BE WRONG BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN WHERE ANYONE HAS HAD AN ISSUE WITH FV 20/50 WHICH YOU WOULD BE TRANSITIONING TO AFTER 4 WEEKS UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. ALL THE PROBLEMS ARE WITH THE 32/40...CORRECT??? AND ONLY IN THE FIRST WEEK TO TEN DAYS??? COULD YOU START NOW WITH 20/50 AND ADD ULTRABOOST??? MY GIRLS ARE OLDER BUT STILL TAKING THE 20/50 PLUS ULTRA BOOST AND NO ISSUES. THEY HAVE BEEN ON IT SINCE 6WEEKS OLD.

[Jackie in Tampa]

years back i tried and did not like 20/50... have not used it since...
always added HC and Dannon to my 23/40 as I do the GM.

Meyerburg has a website that tells where their retailers are... their website is all about goatin'...

http://meyenberg.com/

It explains the benefits of being a goater... there are online coupons as well!
I like the Vote Goat...
:grinI need a bumper sticker!!!!:grin

I too have always been a closet goater, when needed, have raised many a sq on GOAT....hello my name is JiT.:sanp3

[farrelli]

You can also get it online with free shipping:

http://www.healthyplanetshopping.com/index/page/product/product_id/61197/product_name/Powdered+Goat+Milk?gclid=CIGn4bnfjLkCFZKk4AodAGcA8 A

Or Flat rate/free shipping:

http://www.luckyvitamin.com/buy/products/49834-meyenberg-powdered-goat-milk-12-oz.html

As a couple examples.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I didn't have time to read through all 7 pages, so if what I'm saying has already been said and you are on the right track now, then just disregard.

I have always had issues with fox valley and it's probably because I only take in tiny tinies. Pinkie possums and newborn bunnies have the same issues. Fox valley is just not the easiest thing in the world for them to digest.

What I do that works amazingly well and I rarely ever have digestive issues is I make a homemade formula that 4squirlz helped me develop a few years ago. Here is the recipe for making 5 pounds of the powder formula, which you can freeze like any other formula powder:

2 cans (12 oz cans) + 118 grams of powdered goats milk (I get myenburg brand at vitaminshoppe)

1064 grams of whey protein (I use Dymatize Elite Whey Protein vanilla purchased at Vitaminshoppe).

399 grams of powdered egg yolk (you can get it at squirrelsandmore.com (http://squirrelsandmore.com/) or on Amazon.com)
And the vitamin mix is:

10 multivitamins (Nature Made multi-complete with iron)

1 and 2/3 vitamin B6 tablet (50 mg tablets)

2 and 1/2 Biotin tablets (1,000 mcg tablets)

1 and 1/4 vitamin B12 tablet

32 calcium pills (600 mg tablets)

10 magnesium tablets (250 mg tablets)

100 grams brewers yeast (to add potassium)

5 selenium tablets (200 mcg tablets)
Make sure you mix the vitamins in well.
To make full strength 2:1 formula, mix 1 tablespoon of Fox Valley 32/40 powder, 1 tablespoon of the homemade formula powder, and 4 tablespoons of water.

The homemade seems to be really easy for them to digest, they gain weight well, digest well, and thrive. I'd recommend it for anyone doing tiny tinies.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Just read through the last couple posts and a BIG WARNING about ordering the products online is make sure the shipping is direct. I ordered some whey protein on amazon and later learned it was being sent from Arizona to an unmanned smart post nearby, to another one, and another one as it made it's 8 day journey to me. I was like uh I can't feed that to my creatures.

[island rehabber]

:thankyoufor contributing, SR&B2 -- that is excellent info! :thumbsup

[Kristin Ward]

I was a GOAT MILK baby...... couldn't drink any thing else.

:poke :grin3 :grin3

Me too!:grin3

[Milo's Mom]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought part of the beauty of Fox Valley versus the Esbilac was that you DO NOT NEED TO ADD ANYTHING TO IT!

I have not ever had neonates, HOWEVER, I have raised a decent amount of squirrels AND bunnies (yes, I have raised and am raising bunnies from just a few days old).

I was also under the understanding that there is a specific time and purpose for UltraBoost and it's not meant for every baby at all times.

I have used BOTH 32/40 and 20/50 on bunnies and squirrels with no poop issues.

For the bunnies I add UltraBoost to the 32/40 and ONLY if I have a baby that is having problems gaining weight do I add the UltraBoost for squirrels.

This adding Heavy Cream, Yogurt and half the kitchen sink to FV is most likely your problem. FV is made to be a full food and it does not need the extra schit added to it. The amount of probiotics provided in a spoonful of yogurt is ridiculously small and frankly I think it's a waste of time and money. I understand there is a need in certain circumstances to provide extra probiotics due to meds/abs.....go buy a true probiotic at the drug store and dose/use as needed only.

If the neonates are having an issue with 32/40 mixed per the instructions, mix it at 3:1. If they are still having issues how about adding a digestive enzyme (again available at any decent drug store).

Sorry about being so short and snotty with this post, but this bashing FV and scaring the bejesus out of how many new members after we do nothing but preach FV is for the freaking birds. We all stand behind it and we all know it....use it like it's meant to be used and stop adding 50 million things to it.

BTW, has ANYONE called/spoken to Nick yet? If no one has, I'd be happy to, just let me know.

Now, I am going to go feed Fox Valley Formula 32/40 with UltraBoost to my bunnies and 20/50 to my squirrels!

[Rhapsody]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought part of the beauty of Fox Valley versus the Esbilac was that you DO NOT NEED TO ADD ANYTHING TO IT!

This adding Heavy Cream, Yogurt and half the kitchen sink to FV is most likely your problem. FV is made to be a full food and it does not need the extra schit added to it. The amount of probiotics provided in a spoonful of yogurt is ridiculously small and frankly I think it's a waste of time and money. I understand there is a need in certain circumstances to provide extra probiotics due to meds/abs.....go buy a true probiotic at the drug store and dose/use as needed only.

If the neonates are having an issue with 32/40 mixed per the instructions, mix it at 3:1.

Sorry about being so short and snotty with this post, but this bashing FV and scaring the bejesus out of how many new members after we do nothing but preach FV is for the freaking birds. We all stand behind it and we all know it....use it like it's meant to be used and stop adding 50 million things to it.

BTW, has ANYONE called/spoken to Nick yet? If no one has, I'd be happy to, just let me know.I hear what you are saying....... and I personally do mix my FV 1:3 and never add any thing to it until my babies are past the 4 week mark...... then I add yogurt to the mix if they become finicky in drinking it (and) I only add heavy cream to the mix if they need extra calories. BUT!! --I do believe a talk with Nick needs to be happen here soon, and before a decision is made on what TSB is going to do concerning FV.

[UDoWhat]

Just to let you know, I am having trouble with FV 32/40 until about the 3-4 week old stage. I did not ever switch to 20/50 either. JIT, as I remember I didn't like it either for on reason or the other. I will use GM or the wonderful recipe SR&B2 has provided. (:thankyouSR&B2) Can you tell me how many kcals are contained in your formula per Tbs. or cup or what ever measure you figured on?? Do you just feed 5% of body weight? The Casey's kcal formula calculator will tell me GM... but I don't believe I could come up with it for your formula. Just wondering.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

For MM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I don't think Everyone has had an issue.
But there have been too many issues to blame it on the squirrels tummies.
I also am entitled to have and say MY opinion, which I did.
I vote for Goat.
That's all I am doing, adding my 2 cents, sorry it bothered you.

[Unikorngrrl]

I have no idea where the recipe came from, but in 2003 (Nyx was still a puppy and she's 10 now) I raised and released 3 greys on the goat's milk and heavy cream only. I didn't have the first problem with a single one and they were all fat, sassy and happy... And they say you can't raise rabbits on kitten replacement milk but I did it for 10+ years... :dono

[newsquirrelmommy]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought part of the beauty of Fox Valley versus the Esbilac was that you DO NOT NEED TO ADD ANYTHING TO IT!

I have not ever had neonates, HOWEVER, I have raised a decent amount of squirrels AND bunnies (yes, I have raised and am raising bunnies from just a few days old).

I was also under the understanding that there is a specific time and purpose for UltraBoost and it's not meant for every baby at all times.

I have used BOTH 32/40 and 20/50 on bunnies and squirrels with no poop issues.

For the bunnies I add UltraBoost to the 32/40 and ONLY if I have a baby that is having problems gaining weight do I add the UltraBoost for squirrels.

This adding Heavy Cream, Yogurt and half the kitchen sink to FV is most likely your problem. FV is made to be a full food and it does not need the extra schit added to it. The amount of probiotics provided in a spoonful of yogurt is ridiculously small and frankly I think it's a waste of time and money. I understand there is a need in certain circumstances to provide extra probiotics due to meds/abs.....go buy a true probiotic at the drug store and dose/use as needed only.

If the neonates are having an issue with 32/40 mixed per the instructions, mix it at 3:1. If they are still having issues how about adding a digestive enzyme (again available at any decent drug store).

Sorry about being so short and snotty with this post, but this bashing FV and scaring the bejesus out of how many new members after we do nothing but preach FV is for the freaking birds. We all stand behind it and we all know it....use it like it's meant to be used and stop adding 50 million things to it.

BTW, has ANYONE called/spoken to Nick yet? If no one has, I'd be happy to, just let me know.

Now, I am going to go feed Fox Valley Formula 32/40 with UltraBoost to my bunnies and 20/50 to my squirrels!


:goodpost:thumbsup I too have never had neonates but the 2 i recently had were only about 1.5-2 weeks old
(so not sure if this applies) and the only thing i had was fv 20/50 and i used it with no additives and absolutely no problems with them at all and now theyre doing great. Ive never had a bad experience with the FV therefore i cannot say anything about it.:grin

[Milo's Mom]

Just for clarification purposes, not one specific post bothered me, the fact that everyone is wanting to so quickly bail out and hurry up and change to GM ONLY is what bothers me. Without talking to Nick and asking the questions and mixing the FV per the instructions on the bag (as it's meant to be mixed) this thread is causing nothing but a bunch of totally unnecessary worry.

We've preached FV for YEARS and now everyone wants to jump ship and raise squirrels on nothing but GM. Simple minded craziness if you ask me. We are smarter than that! If GM was SO awesome why was Esbilac ever fed? Why KMR? Why all the other formulas, why does FV even exist? Feeding GM formula only to raise squirrels will achieve nothing other than hurting the squirrel. IMHO

[Nancy in New York]

When great rehabbers are not taking in neonates because of the FV issue, there needs to be an alternative, and they have found it with the GM formula.
I just think that when you see a problem in a neonate, and you talk with other rehabbers who are also seeing problems, you go for the common denominator, in which case it's the FV.
When the milk line doesn't go away with the FV but it does with the GM, the problem is clearly the Fox Valley formula.
I am not saying not to recommend it, I just feel uncomfortable recommending it for neonates.
There are many using the 32/40 that are mixing with nothing, and their babies are still bloating and the milk line is not disappearing, they need an alternative.
I always preload my syringes. Last year I noticed that the ones that sat for a while, were clogged in the nipple. That had NEVER happened before. Stosh noticed it happening to him as well, so to me....since I know I am mixing the exact same way every time, it indicates to me that something has changed.

[Milo's Mom]

NIN - do you not also add UltraBoost to your 32/40? I thought you made the change to adding the UltraBoost to all formula a year or so ago.

Is the UltraBoost not fat? Is fat known to clog things up? When did your syringes start getting clogged up?

Has anyone given thought to the environmental conditions? Maybe the mother squirrels are having the babies sooner...maybe they are just 6 months old themselves. Do we know the background to each baby that has had issues with the FV?


I agree that the GM is a very good TEMPORARY formula and I think that it should be used just as such, TEMPORAIRLY.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:grin

[Nancy in New York]

NIN - do you not also add UltraBoost to your 32/40? I thought you made the change to adding the UltraBoost to all formula a year or so ago.

Is the UltraBoost not fat? Is fat known to clog things up? When did your syringes start getting clogged up?

Has anyone given thought to the environmental conditions? Maybe the mother squirrels are having the babies sooner...maybe they are just 6 months old themselves. Do we know the background to each baby that has had issues with the FV?


I agree that the GM is a very good TEMPORARY formula and I think that it should be used just as such, TEMPORAIRLY.

Great memory there Betsy!
I do add ultraboost. There were times, that I have run out,
so no biggie, I will order when I order formula. Oh and the amount
I used was not the recommended amount, it was about half that,
just something to give them the extra boost.
Same problem, nipples clogging even without the Ultra Boost.
Either way it's a problem.

[island rehabber]

I am running an event tonight, so I must feed the kids and run....BUT:

Nick called me just now. He's aware of all the concern and controversy, and here's basically what I got from our conversation:

FV HAS NOT CHANGED ITS FORMULA. Not one single thing. He has used the same five raw materials suppliers for a decade or more and none have changed.

FV HAS NOT ADDED ANYTHING TO "help with shelf life" as someone suggested. NOTHING.

NICK does not buy anything from CHINA -- nor do his suppliers. It is all HUMAN GRADE, by the way.

FV DOES have copper -- it is present in the mineral mix he uses to mix & blend the formulas. He read me the name and the percentage but asked that I not publish it because it's part of his proprietary recipe.

HE assured me he would never do anything to jeopardize wildlife babies in order to increase his bottom line.
His suggestion was for very young pinkies (neonates less than 1 wk old) we should try a 3:1 FV dilution and feed a bit more often to make up the nutrition -- for example, 7 feedings per day as opposed to 6.

Peace. :peace

[keetz1205]

Personally, this is the first year I've used the 32/40 and I could tell the difference right away with Barney and Betty and I was adding NOTHING to it. Eventually, I had added in some ultra boost because they just weren't gaining weight, yet they always had a full belly with a non-disappearing milk line. I switched to 20/50 but I believe it was too late for Betty. Barney is just now coming out of the full belly look but I believe it's because I have also added in benebac to his feedings 2-3 times a day. I have never had problems with the 20/50 before, even with the tiny ones last year, but I will never use the 32/40 again based on the experience I saw with these poor pinkies.

[Milo's Mom]

His suggestion was for very young pinkies (neonates less than 1 wk old) we should try a 3:1 FV dilution and feed a bit more often to make up the nutrition -- for example, 7 feedings per day as opposed to 6.

Peace. :peace




Sound a little familiar?

[Nancy in New York]

I think that anyone that has done pinkies for a while would automatically dilute the formula in hopes of that solving the problem. I wrote in my
first post how I diluted it 1 FV to 3 parts water, and still had the milk line.
That has actually been mentioned several times in this thread by others, and in one case the milk line still was there too.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I agree with parts of Milo's mom's thoughts, but also know the frustration and panic of pinkies not digesting so I understand the bailing on FV as well :). A pinkie still alive on goat's milk that would have died on FV is good, but I agree that it's scary that people would jump ship from a known and tested formula to one that is not complete, hasn't been extensively researched, etc.

I would NEVER trust a homemade formula enough to be 100% of the diet for more than 1-2 days. Especially with pinkies who are developing so rapidly and NEED good nutrition. However, when you have a baby that hasn't digested it's formula in a day and is dying of starvation on a full belly, you need to do something! I had so many babies with diarrhea and digestive slow down on FV and when I did half FV and half homemade formula, the issues all went away. I had been using straight up FV 32/40 (I've never used 20/50 or ultra-boost) that was slowly worked up to 2:1, the formula powder was kept frozen and then what I needed for a couple weeks was kept in the fridge and mixed up fresh daily. I didn't add anything too it (although in my experimenting with those that had issues on straight FV I did try adding things and it didn't really help until I added half the new formula). Almost all my babies had issues. Now with the half and half formulas very few have any issues.

Of course I have never been a FV fan. I used to HATE it but now have learned to accept it as it's the best thing we have right now. I have talked to Nick several times about the digestive slow down and he recommends 3:1 which helps about half of them, but they are the scrawniest little babies ever and for pinkie possums, even 3:1 is an issue for them.

I take in almost 100% newborns and the issues are FV, not the babies. Half homemade and half FV works well for me and is what I will continue to do no matter what others think of it and I don't think it's the solution for finders of babies that aren't rehabbers, but I've never been a fan of them keeping babies, I think they should go to an experienced rehabber, so that's not an issue I'm too concerned about. I think for experienced rehabbers, making up 5 lbs. of the homemade formula and mixing up formula that is half homemade and half FV is the best solution. I feed it to all my babies and they do great.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Just to let you know, I am having trouble with FV 32/40 until about the 3-4 week old stage. I did not ever switch to 20/50 either. JIT, as I remember I didn't like it either for on reason or the other. I will use GM or the wonderful recipe SR&B2 has provided. (:thankyouSR&B2) Can you tell me how many kcals are contained in your formula per Tbs. or cup or what ever measure you figured on?? Do you just feed 5% of body weight? The Casey's kcal formula calculator will tell me GM... but I don't believe I could come up with it for your formula. Just wondering.

I have the kcals at home, but I'm currently away at vet school. It was posted in the thread where we developed the formula, but I don't have time to search for it (it was 2-5 years ago). 4skwerlz and I developed it, I think I started the thread and it was called like digestive issues or something? I don't remember.

[Nancy in New York]

I agree with parts of Milo's mom's thoughts, but also know the frustration and panic of pinkies not digesting so I understand the bailing on FV as well :). A pinkie still alive on goat's milk that would have died on FV is good, but I agree that it's scary that people would jump ship from a known and tested formula to one that is not complete, hasn't been extensively researched, etc.

I would NEVER trust a homemade formula enough to be 100% of the diet for more than 1-2 days. Especially with pinkies who are developing so rapidly and NEED good nutrition. However, when you have a baby that hasn't digested it's formula in a day and is dying of starvation on a full belly, you need to do something! I had so many babies with diarrhea and digestive slow down on FV and when I did half FV and half homemade formula, the issues all went away. I had been using straight up FV 32/40 (I've never used 20/50 or ultra-boost) that was slowly worked up to 2:1, the formula powder was kept frozen and then what I needed for a couple weeks was kept in the fridge and mixed up fresh daily. I didn't add anything too it (although in my experimenting with those that had issues on straight FV I did try adding things and it didn't really help until I added half the new formula). Almost all my babies had issues. Now with the half and half formulas very few have any issues.

Of course I have never been a FV fan. I used to HATE it but now have learned to accept it as it's the best thing we have right now. I have talked to Nick several times about the digestive slow down and he recommends 3:1 which helps about half of them, but they are the scrawniest little babies ever and for pinkie possums, even 3:1 is an issue for them.

I take in almost 100% newborns and the issues are FV, not the babies. Half homemade and half FV works well for me and is what I will continue to do no matter what others think of it and I don't think it's the solution for finders of babies that aren't rehabbers, but I've never been a fan of them keeping babies, I think they should go to an experienced rehabber, so that's not an issue I'm too concerned about. I think for experienced rehabbers, making up 5 lbs. of the homemade formula and mixing up formula that is half homemade and half FV is the best solution. I feed it to all my babies and they do great.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, this is very informative and honest.
Sharing ones successes, and failures is imperative to us learning.

[Milo's Mom]

I did not get to finish my thought on the environmental conditions....these teeny tiny neonates that are 10-12 grams...did they ever get any colostrum from their squirrel mom? How much? Even human babies do better if they get the colostrum from their Mom. Might this be part of the issue?

For the rehabbers, would simply adding a tiny bit of colostrum powder help? How about a digestive enzyme? For the new finders, yes, go with the GM (and this is not a change from what we've suggested for years), then go to the 20/50.

But, I do think that TSB needs to work harder to get new finders to get the babies to rehabbers. I've seen too many threads over the past few weeks where the question was never even asked. After the triage care info it should be numero uno priority to get the baby to a rehabber (or at least someone with experience).

[UDoWhat]

I have the kcals at home, but I'm currently away at vet school. It was posted in the thread where we developed the formula, but I don't have time to search for it (it was 2-5 years ago). 4skwerlz and I developed it, I think I started the thread and it was called like digestive issues or something? I don't remember.

:thankyouSR&B2, I do remember the thread and I will find it. I just didn't remember that the kcals were listed. I think I may have even printed and saved the formula and info. Again, thanks. I hope all is going well in Vet school for you. I do think of you often.

Marty

[sqrlmum]

I've had about 2 dozen releases and 3 neonates (3 days to 5 days old). I raised my first three on kitten replacement formula (I know; I had not heard of FV) but then from #4 on I've used FV. I do the 32/40 and then switch to the big-boy formula, and have never used goat's milk or the Ultra Boost or even yogurt. One neonate succumbed to his cat wounds (feral cat drug him in), one wound up with pneumonia (I'm going to side-eye my older teenager here for overzealous feeding/aspiration as she was the ONLY squirrel I've ever had with pneumonia), and one died suddenly for no reason about 90 minutes after a feeding (little sis was fine). Was it the 32/40 FV? Possibly an air bubble? No idea. I'll definitely keep an eye on the babies after reading this thread, but I am not planning on switching from the prescribed FV 32/40-20/50 routine.

My true challenge has been this week when I grabbed three babies from a 25+-yr rehab veteran who was feeding them Esbilac. I transitioned them to FV and only one of the three has been "right." The tricky two are taking some work (yay, yogurt!), but I have faith in FV and will stick with it. I also rarely take pinkies because of my 0-3 success rate with them, so I appreciate all of you who raise them with resounding success!

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

:thankyouSR&B2, I do remember the thread and I will find it. I just didn't remember that the kcals were listed. I think I may have even printed and saved the formula and info. Again, thanks. I hope all is going well in Vet school for you. I do think of you often.

Marty

Pretty sure it's on there. On the chart with the blue highlighting. And I feed it just like I would feed straight fox valley.

[island rehabber]

When I started this thread I never thought there would be one answer -- one magic solution -- to this problem. Now I know there are probably a dozen good answers, at least. One person using goat's milk with great success does not "cancel out" another person using Multi-Milk plus FV, or FV plus (gulp*gak! sorry!) Esbilac. If the babies thrive, IT IS A GOOD FORMULA.

I encourage every one who rehabs neonates to save the recipes and mixes on this thread in your rehab logs; you never know when you may need them. NOT every method works for everyone, but there is going to be one that works for you and it's up to you to try it when babies are failing. As mentioned before, I have never had a problem with FV and pinkies until just this season, and then only one out of seven, so I cannot honestly say that "it doesn't work for pinkies". It has always worked perfectly for me. However, I believe there is a problem and I intend to save all of these excellent suggestions and have the ingredients for at least one of them before next pinky season comes around again.

TSB's stance, and my stance, is still the same: Fox Valley IS the recommended formula for squirrels. In the case of NEONATES, 1-7 DAYS OLD, there may be a need to use several different methods should GI issues arise.

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

When I started this thread I never thought there would be one answer -- one magic solution -- to this problem. Now I know there are probably a dozen good answers, at least. One person using goat's milk with great success does not "cancel out" another person using Multi-Milk plus FV, or FV plus (gulp*gak! sorry!) Esbilac. If the babies thrive, IT IS A GOOD FORMULA.

I encourage every one who rehabs neonates to save the recipes and mixes on this thread in your rehab logs; you never know when you may need them. NOT every method works for everyone, but there is going to be one that works for you and it's up to you to try it when babies are failing. As mentioned before, I have never had a problem with FV and pinkies until just this season, and then only one out of seven, so I cannot honestly say that "it doesn't work for pinkies". It has always worked perfectly for me. However, I believe there is a problem and I intend to save all of these excellent suggestions and have the ingredients for at least one of them before next pinky season comes around again.

TSB's stance, and my stance, is still the same: Fox Valley IS the recommended formula for squirrels. In the case of NEONATES, 1-7 DAYS OLD, there may be a need to use several different methods should GI issues arise.

:thumbsup

[Jackie in Tampa]

Jackie this is what I bought. Is this ok?
It says do not buy after a certain date, but nowhere
on the carton does it say that it's only good for 72 hours.
Should I discard?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14001.jpg (http://s673.photobucket.com/user/nancym518/media/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14001.jpg.html)http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14002.jpg (http://s673.photobucket.com/user/nancym518/media/A%20tsb%20images/2013-08-14002.jpg.html)
I am an over worrier... I had always been uper careful about the expiration date, rancid...
so I googled


About Goat Miilk (http://meyenberg.com/goat-milk-facts/about-goat-milk/)
F.A.Q. (http://meyenberg.com/goat-milk-facts/faq/)
WIC (http://meyenberg.com/goat-milk-facts/wic/)
Shelf Coding (http://meyenberg.com/goat-milk-facts/shelf-coding/)
Resources (http://meyenberg.com/goat-milk-facts/resources/)



Shelf Coding Shelf Life Coding
Code Identification and Product Shelf Life

MEYENBERG®Fresh Whole Ultra Pasteurized and Low Fat Goat Milk
Stamped on top on carton
Shelf Life: 63 days from date of manufacture
Use within 7 to 10 days of opening.


MEYENBERG® 12 oz. Powdered Goat Milk*
Stamped on bottom of canister code
Shelf Life: 4 years from date of manufacture unopened
After opening, consume within 2 months.
Use within 7 to 10 days of mixing.


MEYENBERG® Evaporated Goat Milk
Stamped on bottom of can
Shelf Life: 4 years from date of manufacture
Use within 7 to 10 days of opening.

First Line: Plant manufacture designation
0558 = Yellville Plant
0612 = Turlock Plant
Second Line: Date manufactured
1st digit = Year in current decade
2nd digit= Month, expressed in alphas
3rd- 4th digit = Day of the months
For example: 2A15 = January 15, 2012
2 = year in current decade
A= First letter of the alphabet which equals the first month of the year
15 = Day of the month

MEYENBERG® 4oz. Powdered Goat Milk Packet*
Embossed on left side margin of packet
Shelf Life: 18 months from date of manufacture unopened
After opening, consume within 2 months.
Use within 7 to 10 days of mixing.

1st-3rd digit = Day of the year
4th digit = Year in current decade
For example: 3452 = December 11, 2012
345= Day of the year
2 = Year in current decade
*Meyenberg uses the Julian Code dating system for both 12 oz. and 4 oz. Powdered Goat Milks

http://meyenberg.com/wp-content/themes/meyenberg/images/suggest_bg/suggest_bgs1.png (http://meyenberg.com/recipe/banana-milk-shake/)

[Jackie in Tampa]

found this about open can storage
---------------------------------------------------------------



Storing an open can of food is not a good practice.


When I was a child and until the 70's the danger of storing in the can was not just bacterial related. The old tin cans were made so they had a seam that ran down the can. This seam was sealed with solder that had a very high lead content. The metal of the can was galvanized to prevent rusting, so many foods could be put into the galvanized can(this made most canned foods have a metallic taste). The lead sealing the cans seam would leach into the food and as long as the all the food was cooked and eaten you only got lead poisoning. Putting the open can in the fridge would allow the lead saturated liquid and food to become a very toxic brew.

All that changed in the 70's and now there are no seams except at the top and/or bottom of the can. This seam is now sealed by pressure so there is nothing toxic. Also the inside of the cans are lined with a sealer to keep the food safe.

The main reason is that the can is not sealed. The inside of a refridgerator is a very toxic place when it comes to bacteria. Literally everything that gets stored in it either is formed by bacteria or is a petri dish for bacterial growth.

So, lets look at why it is dangerous.

1. You take the can of food from the shelf in the cupboard. It looks clean so you just give the top a quick blow, or wipe with a towel to remove any possible dust. Well, in both cases you added bacteria to the top of the can.

2. You set down the can and get the can opener (manual or electric, doesn't matter), fit it to the can and either start cranking the handle of pushing the button or lever to open the can. Odds are you have just added tons more bacteria to the can and, now that the lid is penetrated, to the food. Why? When was the last time you cleaned and sterilized the can opener? Take a good look at the cutting wheel.

3. As you cut the lid of the can some of the juice gets on the lid and runs back into the can. Tons of bacteria, dirt and anything else that may have been on the lid is back in the food.

4. You put some of the food from the can in a pan etc. Put the lid back in the can and then put it back in the refridgerator. Now all that bacteria that was introduced continue to reproduce. Now, if the bacteria is not harmful to humans, then no problem. But, there is lots of other safe bacteria in the fridge that find its way into that open can. Now you have a bacterial soup that could change from being non-harmful to humans to being deadly to humans.

To be safe you should have put the entire contents of the can in the pot or pan and cooked it, then stored it in the fridge in a covered dish. If you choose not to cook the contents of the can, then store the remainder in a covered dish or container. Then, be sure you cook it properly before eating any of it.

[Milo's Mom]

Posted 8/13/13

Same thing was happening with Barney and Betty (about a week old when I got them) on 32/40 with Ultra Boost. I switched them 20/50 after no weight gain and now they're gaining like champs.

Posted 8/20/13

Personally, this is the first year I've used the 32/40 and I could tell the difference right away with Barney and Betty and I was adding NOTHING to it. Eventually, I had added in some ultra boost because they just weren't gaining weight, yet they always had a full belly with a non-disappearing milk line. I switched to 20/50 but I believe it was too late for Betty. Barney is just now coming out of the full belly look but I believe it's because I have also added in benebac to his feedings 2-3 times a day. I have never had problems with the 20/50 before, even with the tiny ones last year, but I will never use the 32/40 again based on the experience I saw with these poor pinkies.


:thinking

[Milo's Mom]

So this whole thing seems to be a digestive issue. Some will never use 20/50 and others will never use 32/40 and some are ditching FV all together.

Since it is a digestive issue with the neonates, has anyone thought about using Vital HN for the super teeny tiny's?

[keetz1205]

Posted 8/13/13


Posted 8/20/13



:thinking

You forgot to underline the part in the second quote where I said I EVENTUALLY added ultra boost the 32/40. Still head scratching?

[Nancy in New York]

We knew from the get go this was a digestive issue.


As a wildlife rehabilitator and admin here, I can't live in denial anymore.
There IS a problem with FV and very young pinkies....LESS THAN 5 days old.

For whatever reason, rehabbers all over the country are having difficulty with FV 32/40, even when combined with Ultra Boost, not being digested by very young pinky squirrels.

:thankyou
IR


Fox Valley makes both Ultra Boost and 32/40 which is recommended for neonates, not sure it matters if or when it was added, as either one or both of the products is causing bloat, and clogging. Funny, I can't even remember when I started using it. :grin

The vital HN...........Hmmmmmmmm not sure I want to start putting something more in a baby that clearly says from Chris herself:
Please contact me if you need assistance in using this product. Misuse of this product can be harmful.
By the time a problem is discovered this would be another thing to order and wait for.

I'm not here to bash, or preach, or throw a good product out the window. I'm here to share
my experience and find viable answers to this.
Like Anne said, this is not her first rodeo, and she lost all her pinkies this spring.
Sissy had 2 three week olds that were not digesting it either.
In my very first post I said how I diluted it 1 part FV 3 parts water and the problem is still there. Nicks suggestion to dilute, has already been done. I think that is the first thing most would do if experiencing a lasting milk line.
Something has changed, regardless of what Nick said.

I really wish that those who have experienced this problem first hand, of the milk line not disappearing, and babies dying would all speak up.
Perhaps together we can find an answer or a suitable alternative to get them over the hump.

[Anne]

Nick needs to push his suppliers to check if their raw products have changed. If I remember correctly one of Pet-Ag's problems was in the change in the way the whey or mix or whatever was being dried(?).
Hey Nick-if you don't know what's going wrong-check outside your method!!!!!!!

[CritterMom]

Nick needs to push his suppliers to check if their raw products have changed. If I remember correctly one of Pet-Ag's problems was in the change in the way the whey or mix or whatever was being dried(?).
Hey Nick-if you don't know what's going wrong-check outside your method!!!!!!!

This is the crux of the issue.

Nick does not manufacture each ingredient down to it's purest source himself. The product is an aggregate from a number of different suppliers. Let's say there are only 5 main ingredients in my new "Coyote Mountain" squirrel formula. Each of those 5 ingredients is compiled of, lets say 5 different items. That means that my little 5 ingredient formula could have a bare minimum of 25 different sources for the total ingredients. In real life it has many more ingredients of course, and Nick may not have changed anything and his main suppliers may not have changed anything but that supply chain doesn't stop with them! This is the reason if often takes so long for the CDC to figure out where the heck the food poisoning is coming from - the chain of resources used just goes on and on and ANY of them could be the culprit.

And while this exercise is very enlightening, and should be allowed to go on because I would really like to see what everyone is doing on this, because we need to come up with a base protocol that can be recommended to newbies, and it needs to be relatively simple - SRBT's formula may work fantastically well but can you imagine recommending it to someone we cannot find a rehabber for? It is beginning to look like 20/50 may be the answer - mixed with GMF for neonate through 4-5 weeks and then phase the GMF out leaving the 20/50?? I don't know that the above IS the answer, but we need to somehow get on one page for the sake of the babies that aren't going to be raised by a rehabber that has a dozen types of formula in the freezer to tinker with...

[MJS]

Nick needs to push his suppliers to check if their raw products have changed. If I remember correctly one of Pet-Ag's problems was in the change in the way the whey or mix or whatever was being dried(?).
Hey Nick-if you don't know what's going wrong-check outside your method!!!!!!!

:goodpost MY THOUGHT TOO... ALL THE PROBLEMS INDICATE THAT SOMEBODY IS DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!!

[MommaLove]

I have two boys and I got them at about 2/3 weeks old. I started them off with GM formula...I just got my delivery of FV, however I think my boys are growing strong and doing well at about 3/4 weeks. I will start introducing FV slowly in about 2 weeks.

What are your thoughts.

[SammysMom]

As someone who has very little hands-on experience, but who reads and learns through others experiences, my opinion is that we advise finders to use goats milk formula just the way we say to in the nutrition formula.
For the first couple of days use GM and full-fat yogurt and then add in the heavy cream on the third or fourth day. It is easily digestible and leaving out the cream for the first day or so gives babies a chance to adjust without the potential for diarrhea caused by the fat in cream.
Perhaps I am oversimplifying this, but it seems to me that when I read that people are having no issues with the GM formula it is a no-brainer that it is the answer for the pinkies. Is there a problem that I am maybe not seeing or is it not nutritionally sufficient for squirrels? It seems (although I may be wrong on this)that once babies are 4 - 5 weeks old there is not an issue with the FV. Why not use GM formula for the first 4 - 5 weeks and then switch to FV?
I am seriously NOT questioning anyone in particular as to their choices or methods. I really just want to understand the whole picture. The way I see it, we all have our own methods that work for us in many areas of our lives. Those here who are experienced and comfortable using their methods of feeding babies are going to continue to do so regardless of what is said here. As they should! All that is going on here is sharing ideas and God knows that is how things get figured out!

[MommaLove]

Thanks SM...I have raised 13 babies last year and only utilized GM formula until release with no issues whatsoever. I decided to order FV to raise these newbies, but just worry about the unknown.

All assistance and advice is great for learning!!! :Love_Icon

[Shewhosweptforest]

Ohhh crap :shakehead thank you :bowdown JIT and NINY this is exactly the goats milk I use and I thought it was good through the date on the carton :shakehead I have a carton to pour out right now :eek

Stamped on top on carton
Shelf Life: 63 days from date of manufacture
Use within 7 to 10 days of opening.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Yeah, my solution to the problem works for me and can work for rehabbers who take in a lot of neonates, I wouldn't even think of recommending it to a finder. They'd likely buy 1-2 of the ingredients and mix it up and it could be worse than the problems they may or may not have had on straight fox valley. The formula I make up is over $10 a pound and if you were to make just 1 lb. it would cost you about $40 after buying the vitamins.

As for the colostrum comment Milo's Mom, I now think colostrum is key to raising pinkie opossums successfully but for most pinkie squirrels I don't think it'll do much good (other than maybe providing something more digestible than FV to add to the formula). Most mammals have a very limited window to take in colostrum. They usually get it within 24 hours of being born and their guts are more permeable to larger proteins so they are able to actually absorb the immunoglobulins in the colostrum and they circulate systemically. The gut becomes less permeable after the 24 hours and even if you give colostrum, the immunoglobulins will not be absorbed. Just google failure of passive transfer in cows for more info. I think opossums have a longer window since they are nonplacental mammals and get all their antibodies through the milk and are born so early in development.

I think a solution for new finders could be to add a small amount of goats milk to the FV instead of diluting to 3:1 (like maybe instead of an extra part water do 1 part goat's milk). Then the babies will get nutrition that is almost as good as straight FV but may be able to digest better. I haven't ever tried that so I'm not sure it would solve the digestive issues, but it might do the trick.

I wonder if the issues have to do with hydration as well. What I have understood is happening is that the babies absorb out the water from the formula and it leaves a sludge of formula powder behind. Goats milk may help mix the formula better and not be absorbed out like the water, allowing the formula to be processed by the animal. That's just my theory on why adding certain things can help the digestive issues.

[UDoWhat]

Yeah, my solution to the problem works for me and can work for rehabbers who take in a lot of neonates, I wouldn't even think of recommending it to a finder. They'd likely buy 1-2 of the ingredients and mix it up and it could be worse than the problems they may or may not have had on straight fox valley. The formula I make up is over $10 a pound and if you were to make just 1 lb. it would cost you about $40 after buying the vitamins.

As for the colostrum comment Milo's Mom, I now think colostrum is key to raising pinkie opossums successfully but for most pinkie squirrels I don't think it'll do much good (other than maybe providing something more digestible than FV to add to the formula). Most mammals have a very limited window to take in colostrum. They usually get it within 24 hours of being born and their guts are more permeable to larger proteins so they are able to actually absorb the immunoglobulins in the colostrum and they circulate systemically. The gut becomes less permeable after the 24 hours and even if you give colostrum, the immunoglobulins will not be absorbed. Just google failure of passive transfer in cows for more info. I think opossums have a longer window since they are nonplacental mammals and get all their antibodies through the milk and are born so early in development.

I think a solution for new finders could be to add a small amount of goats milk to the FV instead of diluting to 3:1 (like maybe instead of an extra part water do 1 part goat's milk). Then the babies will get nutrition that is almost as good as straight FV but may be able to digest better. I haven't ever tried that so I'm not sure it would solve the digestive issues, but it might do the trick.

I wonder if the issues have to do with hydration as well. What I have understood is happening is that the babies absorb out the water from the formula and it leaves a sludge of formula powder behind. Goats milk may help mix the formula better and not be absorbed out like the water, allowing the formula to be processed by the animal. That's just my theory on why adding certain things can help the digestive issues.

:goodpost One of the best theories and solutions I have heard on this subject. It is true that the general finder would not even begin to believe how complicated squirrel nutrition is.

[UDoWhat]

Ohhh crap :shakehead thank you :bowdown JIT and NINY this is exactly the goats milk I use and I thought it was good through the date on the carton :shakehead I have a carton to pour out right now :eek

Stamped on top on carton
Shelf Life: 63 days from date of manufacture
Use within 7 to 10 days of opening.

Goat's milk freezes for up to one year. I freeze it in zip lock bags in 1 cup amounts. It is best to let it thaw in the refrigerator completely.

[Starfish]

You know, folks, we vote with our wallets in this case. When rehabbers stopped buying Esbilac, Pet Ag didn't give a rat's butt because their money is made off of DOG people: big breeders, puppy mills, small breeders, more puppy mills, get it? We were insignifcant to them -- a vocal annoyance, at best. But Fox Valley? Nick doesn't sell in retail stores and he doesn't sell much for dogs and cats -- wildlife is his 'end user' and WE are his core customers. If rehabbers stop buying FV it is gonna HURT, big time. He NEEDS to listen to us. I think we'll get far better results from going to Nick than anyone ever did going to those POS's at Pet Ag. Just my opinion.


Where is a <like> button when you need it?

[MommaLove]

^^^^Agreed^^^LIKE BUTTON:grin2

[Shewhosweptforest]

Goat's milk freezes for up to one year. I freeze it in zip lock bags in 1 cup amounts. It is best to let it thaw in the refrigerator completely.


:thankyou:thumbsup Good to know....I'll be sure to split this carton up:bowdown

[Starfish]

Goat's milk freezes for up to one year. I freeze it in zip lock bags in 1 cup amounts. It is best to let it thaw in the refrigerator completely.

Note: For frozen liquid goat's milk, 1-cup portions take nearly a full day to thaw out.

[Shewhosweptforest]

Note: For frozen liquid goat's milk, 1-cup portions take nearly a full day to thaw out.

:bowdown that's another good thing to know...sooo no waiting to the last minute:hidechair

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Every time i make a new batch of ultra boost and 20/50. i find little tiny micro thin pieces of plastic type material in the powder. i was thinking it might be from the inner lining of the bag.it disintegrates with water and if i squeeze it between my fingers,but seems weird to me.

[Nancy in New York]

Every time i make a new batch of ultra boost and 20/50. i find little tiny micro thin pieces of plastic type material in the powder. i was thinking it might be from the inner lining of the bag.it disintegrates with water and if i squeeze it between my fingers,but seems weird to me.

Strange:thinking.
Can you mix them up separate and then figure out which one it's coming from?
May I ask why he is still on Ultra Boost? I'm only asking because that seems like a lot of fat. I
know that some do it that way. I rarely use the whole amount of UB, usually half of the recommended
amount, just enough. BUT I only add it to the 32/40.
Just curious, that's all.
How much does your little one weigh?

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Strange:thinking.
Can you mix them up separate and then figure out which one it's coming from?
May I ask why he is still on Ultra Boost? I'm only asking because that seems like a lot of fat. I
know that some do it that way. I rarely use the whole amount of UB, usually half of the recommended
amount, just enough. BUT I only add it to the 32/40.
Just curious, that's all.
How much does your little one weigh? Nancy. actually it was in every bag that had the little flakes. i have been only putting less than a quarter of the boost in because i thought he was a little thin.,but i'm referring to the bits of plastic in the bags of formula. i guess no one else has noticed it.

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy. actually it was in every bag that had the little flakes. i have been only putting less than a quarter of the boost in because i thought he was a little thin.,but i'm referring to the bits of plastic in the bags of formula. i guess no one else has noticed it.

There are little colored specs, but I don't think they are plastic.
I will double check when I make the formula. So this has been in
every single bag of the FV? I hope someone comes on that knows
what this could be. I have heard of people noticing colored specs....but for
the life of me, I can't remember what someone said it was. Did you call Nick?
:grouphug

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

There are little colored specs, but I don't think they are plastic.
I will double check when I make the formula. So this has been in
every single bag of the FV? I hope someone comes on that knows
what this could be. I have heard of people noticing colored specs....but for
the life of me, I can't remember what someone said it was. Did you call Nick?
:grouphug

Iv'e seen the specs. But the little plastic looking flakes are few and far between,but iv'e noticed them 4 times,.they remind me of instant potatoe flakes but more transparent. next time i come across one i will photograph it. every batch i go through meticulously to make sure there are none.It could be something in the process of making the formula and is harmless.

[Nancy in New York]

Iv'e seen the specs. But the little plastic looking flakes are few and far between,but iv'e noticed them 4 times,.they remind me of instant potatoe flakes but more transparent. next time i come across one i will photograph it. every batch i go through meticulously to make sure there are none.It could be something in the process of making the formula and is harmless.

It could be, but that seems strange. I will have to look at mine more closely.:tilt

[Sissy]

I called an spoke with Nick the other day after losing another baby. In the past I have had problems with both formulas. Most of the time it was horrible smelling poops that were pasty. I have a Mama flyer with 5 babies that are 4 weeks old. I pulled the runt the other day because he was just to thin and wasn't able to nurse as much as the others. They were twice his size. He was healthy just underweight. I started feeding him every 2 hrs and he was doing great. He gained 1 gram within 12 hours. Sometime during the middle of the night I had to mix more formula, and in my half sleep stupor must have mixed the 32/40 instead of the 20/50. By the next morning I noticed his milk line wasn't disappearing and he refused to eat. Long story short, I lost him due to my mistake. In the past when FV was perfect this sort of mistake shouldn't have made that big of difference.
Needless to say I was very upset and called Nick. He swore he hasn't changed anything and that he always tells the truth. I went over everything with him, including the temp I heat the water, the color of poops, etc. I also told him there was becoming a larger amount of people having problems with the 32/40. He said he had only heard from a few and they were on the east coast and nothing from FL. or anywhere else. I begged him to check into his suppliers methods and see if they had changed anything. He swore they haven't and he trusted them. I asked him to please do his own experiment with the 32/40 and see if it clumped and became undissolved. He promised he and his 2 sons would conduct their own experiment so they would have 3 different results to look at. I don't know if he actually will, I asked him to call me after he did this and let me know what he found. I pray his results conclude the same alot of us are seeing.
I also told him that now my babies are on 20/50 that half have horrible smelling poops and they are mushy. I have since corrected this by switching to GM.
I wished I knew all the answers to what the heck is going on, but I don't. All I know is SOMETHING HAS CHANGED! It might not be something he is doing but somewhere something is different.
I pray we make it thru baby season without losing anymore babies due to a clogged gut.

RIP: Runty. I'm sorry we as humans make mistakes.

214003

[Nancy in New York]

There IS something to all of this.
I am watching Maura's kids. The other day I had to mix up new formula, I make batches and freeze it.
After feeding them the new formula 20/50 and NO ultra boost 4 of the 6 got mushy smelly poops. Maura will
be here today to attest to this and see for herself.
I had them on dia-stat yesterday, and it helped some.
I threw all of the formula out that I had mixed, and opened a new bag.

There is something going on, and at least PetAg finally owned up to their problem
concerning the processing!
I am so disappointed. :shakehead

Sissy I am so sorry about the loss of your little flyer. :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

Sissy what is the lot number on your Fox Valley?
Mine is 042023 expiration January 31, 2015.
Maura came up Thursday, and we switched the
babies back to the Fox Valley WITH Ultra Boost that
night. The following day, still the same, and when
Maura got home still the same as of last night.
She is putting them back on dia-stat as I had done the day
before.

One thing I did notice while making the new batch up
yesterday morning, after it was mixed, it did NOT have that
strong FV smell.
There was a hint, but not the typical vanilla frosting smell or taste.

When Maura got home and opened her bag, there was a huge difference in
the smell, hers was the "typical" smell we all know.

Maura what is the lot number on your bag?

Something is wrong, I don't care what anyone says. I almost feel like
I am feeding them something foreign, and not sure how to tweek it to make it work!

[island rehabber]

Exactly as Nancy tells it -- ALL six had mush this morning and all six got Dia-Stat. (Thank God Krista doesn't take formula, in this case!)
I am running to an appt but will post the lot# later -- send "hard poopies" vibes to my house, please!

[Sissy]

Nancy, I don't have the lot #. I order 3lb pails and remove the bags from the pails so they will fit better in the freezer. I take the original bag the FV is in an put the whole thing in a zip lock bag marking with a marker on the outside what it is. I don't add anything to my FV nor have I in the past.

Honestly I don't think Nick has changed anything but I think someone else before he gets the ingredients might have. Even if ever so slight, it makes a difference. Yes it does feel like we are feeding something foreign to our babies. I don't like thinking our babies are guinea pigs in trying to figure out how to make this right, but sadly they are.

Unless you have babies and see what actually is going on with them, it would be next to impossible for someone to completely understand the full impact of how it is affecting them.

All of this just breaks my heart, I loved Fv it was perfect. :soapbox

[Nancy in New York]

I really hate when newbies come on, not knowing what to recommend.
We have always said FV in the past, but if you don't know what to look for
and try to adjust accordingly, how would you even know there's a problem.
You and I both saw the milk line not disappearing, I added the UB, you didn't,
seems like it's a crap shoot and we got the same result. Death!

I think that the GM should be recommended to any eyes closed baby, and then
work their way up to FV? JMO :dono

[smoknbunny]

I have lost 2 pinkies. I was in complete denial about FV being the cause but now I'm wondering. I've had that "non disappearing milk line". The other thing I've noticed is a grittiness that I didn't notice last year. I squirt a tiny bit in my mouth to test the temp and I feel like I've got fine sand in my mouth.
I lost my second one last night and I feel horrible. I haven't had pinkies in a couple if years and now I'm gun shy again.

[Nancy in New York]

I have lost 2 pinkies. I was in complete denial about FV being the cause but now I'm wondering. I've had that "non disappearing milk line". The other thing I've noticed is a grittiness that I didn't notice last year. I squirt a tiny bit in my mouth to test the temp and I feel like I've got fine sand in my mouth.
I lost my second one last night and I feel horrible. I haven't had pinkies in a couple if years and now I'm gun shy again.

Yup I have noticed the grittiness with the 20/50.
I too squirt it in my mouth just to make sure the nipple
isn't plugged. (I preload the syringes)
So sorry about your loss.
Something is going on for sure, this all can't be a coincidence.

[Starfish]

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?41638-WARNING-ABOUT-ESBILAC!&p=927262&posted=1#post927262

Marie1428 wrote the following in the thread above. It makes me a little antsy seeing as everything that has been said about Esbilac but it's worth mentioning:

"Just wanted to inform everyone that they recently changed the formulation of Esbilac. The powder that comes with probiotic is a new formula that can be used to successfully save newborns. They changed the ingredients if you look at the label. I was forced to use fox valley and other products for three years when they took the old esbilac off the market. My neonates were unable to digest the fox valley. Fox valley is ok for older squirrels but not for newborns. I will never use it again. I have had 100% success rate with 14g neonates this summer.They are growing and digesting well. You just have to make sure you use the Esbilac that is labeled with probiotic. I also add 1/4 Dean's heavy whipping cream (liquid)."

[Saverywood]

:wave123 Maura - I lost a little one Prince George a little while back with bloat (still makes me so sad, sad) and I kept wondering....how and why? He still had his umbi stump too, poor darling. So thank you for sharing.

Sissy - So sorry about your little flyer. Sad, sad. Breaks my heart for you too.

[island rehabber]

I think that the GM should be recommended to any eyes closed baby, and then
work their way up to FV? JMO :dono[/I]

Much as it's going to make my pinky rehabbing a freaking scavenger-hunt nightmare, I have to agree with this. We recommend GM for the first two weeks, at least.

[Nana3]

While searching the internet about problems with Fox Valley, I am having problems with my 20/50 also being gritty and clumping on the bottom like plaster and my kids poop is dry and hard as a rock, I ran across this paper written by Sarah Rowe in Aug. 2013. Found it to be interesting especially on FV 32/40 and pinkies.

What's in that Milk Replacer You Are Using for Squirrels?
A Guide to Ingredients and Their Effects on Growth

By Sarah Rowe,
August, 2013, First Edition

http://www.squirrel-rehab.org/milkreplacerguide.html

[island rehabber]

Thank you for posting this. It is a well-written article by an excellent squirrel rehabber whom we can trust. The big question is: where do we go from here? I am still thinking.......

[Starfish]

Really interesting. Really hard to believe that in the beginning of the thread, nick said he didn't know anything. I'm pretty sure someone going to the effort of having a necropsy don't would have reported the findings back to the supplier...

[Nana3]

Really interesting. Really hard to believe that in the beginning of the thread, nick said he didn't know anything. I'm pretty sure someone going to the effort of having a necropsy don't would have reported the findings back to the supplier...

I spoke with Nick yesterday for about an hour regarding the issues I am having with 20/50. He assured me he has changed nothing in the formula but is sending another bag to me to "test" to see if I get the same results.

He said that all of the complaints he is getting is from the South East part of the states and wondered if it has something to do with our water or how hot we are mixing it with. As I told him, I had a bag of 20/50 here that I had left over from my girls that came in Feb. 10th in the freezer and never had any problems with it. Not gritty, clumpy ...nothing. It had an expiration date of Feb. 2014.
This batch I am using now has lot number 042173 and expires Jan 31, 2015. I asked him what the lot number meant.. 04 is for 20/50...217 is the day of the year it was mixed(Aug 5th) and 3 is the year.
As with most of you, I agree SOMETHING has changed.
I will ask Sarah if the necropsy findings were indeed reported to Nick and let you know the answer. I am still on the fence about FV and not sure I will continue to use it.

[smoknbunny]

To Nick:
1. I am in the NW and have had problems
2. Of course it is weighted toward the east side of the country. Eastern greys and foxes are non natives to the NW and illegal to rehab in places like Oregon. Not as many people are free to do it as on the east coast.

I had no problems in the previous couple of years. I am so disappointed.

I got a friend to switch to FV and she has invested in quite a few buckets this year alone and now I have to tell her I don't trust it any more.

[Sissy]

To Nick:
1. I am in the NW and have had problems
2. Of course it is weighted toward the east side of the country. Eastern greys and foxes are non natives to the NW and illegal to rehab in places like Oregon. Not as many people are free to do it as on the east coast.

I had no problems in the previous couple of years. I am so disappointed.

I got a friend to switch to FV and she has invested in quite a few buckets this year alone and now I have to tell her I don't trust it any more.


Smoknbunny!!! :Love_Icon:Love_Icon:grouphug:Love_Icon:Love_Icon

It's so good to see you back on here!! Missed you!

[Sissy]

Please please please if anyone is having problems with FV call Nick directly and tell him. He is in denial that anything is wrong. He is trying to blame everything else except the formula. When I spoke to him he also told me, it might be the water, the way we are mixing it, etc etc. Wrong, to me it's the formula and I couldn't get him to understand that. I also begged him to mix his own FV up and see if he had the same problem. He was going to get back to me to let me know his findings. I am still waiting.
It is not just on the Eastern region. He thinks it's only 2 or 3 people have a problem, so there for there really isn't a problem. He said people are still ordering large amounts and he hasn't heard anything from anyone else. The more we let him know, maybe the more he will believe there is a problem.

[island rehabber]

He can forget that "water excuse" because New York City has the best, purest water in the world -- this is a fact, not my prejudice, LOL -- and I have six squirrels with disgusting, mushy poop. On FV. First 20/50, then 32/40. NOTHING helps, not even the Dia-Stat for very long. :hissyfit

[Sissy]

He can forget that "water excuse" because New York City has the best, purest water in the world -- this is a fact, not my prejudice, LOL -- and I have six squirrels with disgusting, mushy poop. On FV. First 20/50, then 32/40. NOTHING helps, not even the Dia-Stat for very long. :hissyfit

That is so sad and frustrating. Let alone super stressful on us worrying if they are gonna live or die on this mess.

[Nancy in New York]

Nick must think that the rehabbers never talk to one another.
He usually says this is the first he has heard about it.
Well, we know that ain't true!
Does he realize that his credibility is going right down the tubes?
Such a shame, I used to think of him as a nice guy..........not so much now. :(

[Sissy]

The ole mighty dollar can make the best into the worst. Sad but true.

[sqrlmum]

I posted earlier when I wasn't sure what was going on with my Esbilac squirrels that I got from another local rehabber - I had a problem with them switching over to FV. I used 32/40 on all three because even though the big guy was 5 weeks, he was barely at 3/4 the size he should have been. It turns out they had coccidia prior to me getting them and it went FULL-blown ... but now I wonder? I did a combo of Ponazuril/Albon/Flagyl to wipe out any issues and they are all on 20/50 now and PERFECT. I transitioned the younger two onto the 20/50 and no problems now at all. Beautiful, healthy golden yellow FV poopies yay!

I have gone through at least one bag each this season and have noticed that the 32/40 is grainy and settles on the bottom. I have a lot of littles this year, so my 32/40 was being used pretty quickly. However, both 32/40 bags I've used this year are heavy and pasty. My three littles were all on 32/40, and all have diarrhea. The 3-week-old boy is just foamy light yellow and bubbly and mucousy. I've done both Kaopectate and Imodium, and nothing. It just slides right out of him. His milk line never moves. The two little girls (about 2 weeks old now) also have a non-moving milk line. I added lo-fat vanilla yogurt to their formula - NEVER have had to add ANYTHING to my FV EVER, not even diluting it! - and the girls are completely mushy and the older boy is just like a scrambled non-cooked egg. I held off on the feedings, and even substituted Pedialyte for a feeding to see if the line would move. *Maybe* half of the milk line disappeared on one of the little girls, but not on the other one. I have to give the older boy rehydrating fluids every hour and he doesn't look great (but not losing). On CritterMom's advice, I switched them all to 20/50 with a 3:1 water/FV ratio and with a little yogurt this afternoon. I also gave them Benebac and am just crossing my fingers.

I've been doing this for 3 years and this is the first time I've had a problem with FV. Never had to use UltraBoost, and they just ate like piglets and gained like crazy. Even my pinkies that died did so due to injury or cat bites or respiratory issues - but NEVER with any tummy or formula troubles. This is the first year I've had more than one squirrel with diarrhea (well, outside from overfeeding - ahem!). I don't mean to be an alarmist but I feel terrible that I gave my other guys all of those meds if it was, in fact, the FV and not the cocc. Ugh. Thank you all for your input.

[CritterMom]

Well now that I am here in this forum, I have a couple questions.

I am a big one for voting with my wallet. I have supported FV since the Esbilac change and I bet if you accounted for word of mouth, etc., TSB has probably been responsible for 50% of Nick'sincome in the last couple years. NOBODY has been as brand loyal as this board! But you know, they have to keep earning it, and doing something just because it is what you have always done it is a really stupid reason to continue. IF FV is producing sub-standard formula and Esbilac has cleaned up their act, I would pitch FV over the side without a single qualm. It would make re-writing the permanent parts of the board a lot easier to!

So I have been thinking about this new whey based Esbilac that is formulated with probiotics... I haven't actually FOUND any; Pet Ag doesn't have info about it on their site, so my questions are for those who are USING it.

Probiotics are heat-sensitive - like yeast, heat kills them. So a formula that contains probiotics should have mixing directions that instruct the user to mix it with nothing warmer than lukewarm water - IF the probiotics are in there for any reason other than marketing and window dressing. If this formulation is designed to be mixed without using super hot water, which is how you USED to mix esbilac, it MUST mean that they have changed the manufacturing process to make it easily dissolvable. Not dissolving was the problem with esbilac when the formulation changed, AND it is the current problem with FV.

Can somebody that has this new Esbilac check the mixing instructions and tell us what it says? We might have the holy grail here - and if we DO, the board is going to have to be flexible enough to change their recommendations to reflect it...

[Nancy in New York]

CritterMom, Junior wrote this in the thread earlier, so going by this, I'm not sure you are going to know the new from the old by the packaging or even if they are making a big deal about it. It seems you have to read the ingredients to know if you are getting the "new" one.
I'm with you, not once since I've had a problem have I recommended FV on our board!
I just won't, and to be honest, I cringe when I see anyone else recommending it. We have to find an alternative fast!




I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

**** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

Good Luck !!!
Christy

[CritterMom]

Well I know that - I was really surprised when I couldn't even find anything on the Pet Ag site. According to the article that is posted a couple back by Sarah Rowe, this esbilac will eventually replace what is on the shelves once that stock is gone, so they don't seem to be making much hoopla over it.

But what I want someone who has a can of this new esbilac to tell me is whether they are recommending mixing it with hot water. If they are trying to keep the probiotics viable so they actually have some effect on what is consuming them, you could not mix this stuff with hot water or you would kill them. If you can't mix it with hot water, they would have had to change the manufacturing process or it flat out wouldn't ever dissolve enough to be digested! That one fact should tell us that they have changed the manufacturing process that rendered it virtually undigestible in 2010, and THTA would be a really good piece of info to have...

[island rehabber]

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I strongly doubt that rehabbers were the reason. We rehabbers make up but a tiny fraction of a percent of Pet Ag's bottom line, and they've done fine without us all these years since the debacle. So long as lots of big puppy mills and dog breeders need their products and buy them anyway, they have no incentive to change anything for any wildlife rehabber. That's why I am so cynical about them doing anything right at this point. Now, Nick at Fox Valley -- he NEEDS us. He needs to figure out if something is wrong because we ARE his target customer.

[Squirrel Girls Mom]

I spoke with Nick yesterday for about an hour regarding the issues I am having with 20/50. He assured me he has changed nothing in the formula but is sending another bag to me to "test" to see if I get the same results.

He said that all of the complaints he is getting is from the South East part of the states and wondered if it has something to do with our water or how hot we are mixing it with. As I told him, I had a bag of 20/50 here that I had left over from my girls that came in Feb. 10th in the freezer and never had any problems with it. Not gritty, clumpy ...nothing. It had an expiration date of Feb. 2014.
This batch I am using now has lot number 042173 and expires Jan 31, 2015. I asked him what the lot number meant.. 04 is for 20/50...217 is the day of the year it was mixed(Aug 5th) and 3 is the year.
As with most of you, I agree SOMETHING has changed.
I will ask Sarah if the necropsy findings were indeed reported to Nick and let you know the answer. I am still on the fence about FV and not sure I will continue to use it.

I checked my FV. The lot number is 042173 & the expiration date is Jan 31, 2015. I'm in southwest Missouri.

[Nancy in New York]

I posted mine earlier it is 042023 expiration January 31, 2015.

[CritterMom]

I strongly doubt that rehabbers were the reason. We rehabbers make up but a tiny fraction of a percent of Pet Ag's bottom line, and they've done fine without us all these years since the debacle. So long as lots of big puppy mills and dog breeders need their products and buy them anyway, they have no incentive to change anything for any wildlife rehabber. That's why I am so cynical about them doing anything right at this point. Now, Nick at Fox Valley -- he NEEDS us. He needs to figure out if something is wrong because we ARE his target customer.

What makes you think that the dog breeders weren't also having problems with it? Puppies don't have magical iron stomachs that will digest sludge! Something happened to have made them change their formulation again and I would imagine it was the bottom line that did. If all the rehabbers stopped purhasing it and they lost their dog customers, well, it's time to DO something...

[keetz1205]

Puppies WERE dying from the undigested formula. However, the articles I saw online were mainly based on the numbers of kittens that were dying from Esbilac.

[island rehabber]

Puppies WERE dying from the undigested formula. However, the articles I saw online were mainly based on the numbers of kittens that were dying from Esbilac.

Thanx Crit & keetz -- I stand corrected. I was under the assumption that only a few puppies were affected and therefore Pet Ag saw no reason to remedy the situation at the time.

[sqrlmum]

My FV is lot no. 012093 and also expires January 2015. :confused:

[smoknbunny]

Based of what I've read in that report, I've started experimenting with the FV formula in the kitchen. Interesting results so far. And of course completely unscientific. Caseine seems to be the gut blocker and I'm wondering if it is possible to remove it before feeding.
Caseine is the curd in curds and whey. Whey seems to be the protein we want??
My first experiment was interesting. I added some whey powder to the 4wk and older powder, added boiling water and created some nasty clumps andI have to wonder if those are the culprits. I was just trying to add the whey to give them digestible protein and was not expecting the curds. Some of them could have come from the whey which is not an isolate but there were a LOT.
If Nick is using milk that has a lot of caseine in it, stomach acid could cause curds in the gut which babies are unable to process. Heat and acid make the curds form.
Like I said, completely unscientific but it was interesting

[Anne]

Fox Valley, kept in my freeze. 32/40 for squirrels. Expiration date: Jan 31, 2014 Lot# 012252.
40/25 for raccoons. Expiration date: Dec 31, 2014. Lot # 021623.
The raccoon formula was ordered this year. My babies had trouble digesting it and had loose poops until weaned. So it's apparently not confined to just the squirrel formula. Haven't seen another species mentioned in any of the other posts. However, I do them all-squirrels, possums, and raccoons. Didn't have any pinky squirrels last year, lost all (4) pinkies squirrels this year, before I switched to GM. Have 2 just past pinky age now that are doing fine. Switched when I got 7 eyes closed babies earlier-now they are 8+ weeks and doing great.

[smoknbunny]

I think the casein to whey balance is off. They need some but probably not as much as cows. I think it's the excess casein causing the problem. Probably in all the formulas. FV formulas go by the protein fat ratio but probably ignore the milk composition. Its all based on cow milk. Maybe goat just has a better ratio

[SammysMom]

Just an observer here, but has the casein amount changed? Why is it that the formula was great and now sub-par? I am NOT questioning your information in a critical way, I am just trying to follow the facts.

[smoknbunny]

If I'm not mistaken he uses the dry combining method so maybe a component has changed?

[SammysMom]

It just has to be that some ingredient or ratio is different. Thank-you for working so hard to figure this out!

[Nana3]

Here are some independent studies done on the different formulas for the past few years.




WildAgain Wildlife Rehabilitation, Inc.

Powdered milk replacers for wildlife

Independent analysis and test results

http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Replacers/midwest_test_results.htm

I received the new bag of 20/50 from Nick on Thur. It was mixed on Sept. 7th. I did my own testing of the formula using house water at temp of 100 degrees as per package instructions also at 150 degrees. I repeated the same temps using bottled spring water. I let them sit in the frig. over night and the results were ALL the same. Gritty, thick settlement on the bottom. My two squirrels that I have 20/50 on are having constipation problems. I tried diluting 3:1 but saw no difference. I am going to try something else on them, perhaps GM. If they were old enough I would just take them off formula but they are not.
I don't think the older ones are digesting this formula well either. These guys had beautiful poops until I started them on the new bag of FV. They are not gaining weight like they should and this is worrying me. They eat their blocks and veggies just fine but right after I feed them FV they hang on the side of the cage as if their belly's hurt and I am not over feeding them. Still searching for answers......as we all are.

[Nana3]

another test findings by Wildagain

http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Replacers/June2013Update/june2013_milk_replacer_update.htm

[island rehabber]

My head is spinning.....and meanwhile my kids still have mushy poops.

[smoknbunny]

I'm holding my breath and knocking on wood but the two of three babies I have seem to be doing well. The two, Claire and Jericho, had horrible greenish egg yolk diarrhea and weren't gaining. 90 g each to sister Erin's 110 grams. Eyes open just under a week. Tried acidophilus, reglan, gas x and finally on Thursday afternoon, flagyl. Thursday morning I started using a modified fv based on experiments I mentioned.
I mixed a half cup of fv with a scoop of whey powder with a cup and about 4 tbsp of BOILING water. I stirred it not too vigorously and let cool. Then, I strained any clumps that formed with a wire sieve. Claire and jericho have gained 20g since Thursday and have had a little mushy poo but I think that's because I overfed Claire (I got confused by severe lack of sleep :-/).
If I think they are bloated at all I give gas x and if I don't think they poop enough I give reglan.
No idea what long term effects will be but they are gaining and feisty.
Added bonus, formula less gritty
My friend who has over 24 babies is trying the mod fv on a really skinny baby since last night so I'm waiting to hear results from her.
Also stopped flagyl after 2 doses (bad but I hate antibiotics)

[smoknbunny]

And I'm still doing acidophilus in some feedings.
Forgot to mention that the reglan acidophilus ga s x trio did not fix this problem while on regular fv mix
Also, was helping my friend feed last night, straight fv, and it was disgusting - so gritty I was feeling horrible putting it their little mouths.
Also forgot to mention that I add a little more water when I feed if formula seems too thick

[smoknbunny]

Isn't it great how EASY fv is to feed :-P

[smoknbunny]

Modified formula seems to be working well. Steady weight gain and improved poop. Two with nice golden poops and one with only slightly soft. Only feeding formula and not using any meds.
My husband who empties them after I feed them reports better smelling wee. He said it was fishy before but not now

[smoknbunny]

Test

[SammysMom]

What the hell is that?:eek

[smoknbunny]

Sorry, was trying my ability to attach a picture
These are the clumps I strained out of the fv after heating it. Sorry, it looks like barf

[island rehabber]

I use a small wire whisk to mix my FV -- the type you would use to whisk one egg in a small cup. I never have trouble with lumpy formula unless I'm somewhere without the whisk and have to use a fork or spoon.

[smoknbunny]

I hope this is baby squirrels
They are the ones on modified formula

[smoknbunny]

These were the clumps I was trying to create so I could strain them out. Its the casein that I believe is clogging tummies. I think the fv is too casein heavy so I've added whey and separated the casein. Heat and acid causeit to clump so I did it with heat so the stomach acid in their bellies wouldn't.
Its an experiment but it seems to be working

[Nana3]

What the hell is that?:eek

:rofl4that was my first thought...

I shake per instructions on the bag.. but I do mix ahead of time and let rest for several hours.

[Starfish]

I used baby bottles to mix (and store) FV formula. Worked well. Did seem a little grainy a few times; would then shake harder.

-----
Also, I still have one of my empty bags of FV been holding on to it. My lot number says 041143 / Dec 31 2014.

[smoknbunny]

I'm making clumps on purpose

[island rehabber]

:thumbsup gotcha :grin

[SammysMom]

Is there anyone on the board who seems to be having NO issues with FV? Is it across the board problems or is there anyone who says it is all fine and well?
I am just curious. Maybe they are using some that they had before the issue arose.

[Starfish]

Is there anyone on the board who seems to be having NO issues with FV? Is it across the board problems or is there anyone who says it is all fine and well?
I am just curious. Maybe they are using some that they had before the issue arose.

In the time I was using it this summer (20/50), I did notice a few times that it seemed grainy. However, I had no real issues. The boys liked it.

[smoknbunny]

I don't remember it being gritty last fall. I want to know what the grit is. Its not dissolved by bringing the formula almost to a boil let alone by normal temp mixing. As far as I know milk should not be gritty

[MJS]

Is there anyone on the board who seems to be having NO issues with FV? Is it across the board problems or is there anyone who says it is all fine and well?
I am just curious. Maybe they are using some that they had before the issue arose.

I AM HAVING ZERO ISSUES WITH FOX VALLEY 20/50...ABSOLUTELY NONE. I HAVE BEEN FEEDING IT TO VENUS AND SERENA BEGINNING ON A FOUR, THEN FIVE, THEN SIX HOUR SCHEDULE FROM THE TIME THEY WERE SIX WEEKS OLD (WHEN WE FIRST FOUND THEM) UNTIL FOUR MONTHS WHEN THEY FINALLY REJECTED THE SYRINGE (THANK GOD) AND WENT TO THE BOWL (ONCE PER DAY, FIRST THING IN THE MORNING.) THEY ARE NOW APPROX 6 1/2 MO. AND STILL GET FV 20/50 DAILY FOR THEIR BREAKFAST FOLLOWED BY THEIR FIRST HHB OF THE DAY. I LEAVE THE BOWLS IN THEIR CAGE FOR SEVERAL HOURS...SOMETIMES THEY DRINK IT ALL, SOMETIMES NOT.

I MIX IT AS FOLLOWS BEFORE GOING TO BED:

1. ONE PART FV CONSISTING OF 3 1/2 MEASURES OF 20/50 AND 1/2 MEASURE OF ULTRABOOST.
2. TWO PARTS HOT TAP WATER IN...
3. A LARGE SHAKER...RELATIVELY SPEAKING BECAUSE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF THE WATER IN THE MIXTURE IS 78CC, TOTAL AMOUNT OF PQWDER IS 2 TABLESPOONS. THE SHAKER WOULD HOLD 10 TIMES MORE LIQUID EASILY.
4. I THEN SHAKE THE CRAP OUT OF IT...PUT IT IN THE FRIDGE OVERNIGHT.

IN THE MORNING I SHAKE THE CRAP OUT OF IT AGAIN BEFORE GIVING IT TO THE GIRLS...COLD AND FOAMY. WHEN THEY WERE STILL SYRINGE FED THE PROCEDURE WAS THE SAME, EXCEPT AFTER THE MORNING SHAKING I FILLED THE SYRINGES AND PUT THEM IN A TERVIS CUP FILLED WITH HOT WATER, PUT THE REMAINING FORMULA IN A SMALLER CONTAINER, FED ONE SQ, REFILLED SYRINGES, PLACED THEM IN HOT WATER, THEN FED #2. AS THEY GOT OLDER THE TEMP OF THE FORMULA BECAME LESS IMPORTANT.

THESE SQS HAVE NEVER, EVER (AND I MEAN ABSOLUTELY NEVER) HAD A SINGLE DIGESTIVE ISSUE...NOT EVEN ONE SOFT POOP THAT I HAVE SEEN IN ALMOST FIVE MONTHS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN WITH US (KNOCK ON WOOD.) THEY HAVE HAD 20/50 WITH ULTRABOOST EVERY DAY. THEY DO NOT EAT ANY JUNK FOOD...THE CLOSEST THING BEING A LITTLE ORGANIC ALMOND BUTTER ON THE END OF A CHEW STICK ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK. (WHEN THEY GET A STICK WITHOUT IT, THEY'RE LIKE, "WTH IS THIS?")

I HAVE HAD THREE SEPARATE SHIPMENTS OF 20/50 FROM HENRY'S. NO PROBLEM WITH ANY OF THE PRODUCT. IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PRODUCT, WHY AM I NOT EXPERIENCING IT? I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE 32/40...IF I HAD A NEWBORN I WOULD BE AFRAID OF IT BASED ON WHAT HAS BEEN SAID...BUT FOR OLDER SQS, I JUST KNOW THAT I'VE GOT TWO HAPPY, HEALTHY LITTLE GIRLS WHO LAP UP THEIR 20/50 EVERY DAY, EAT THEIR HHB'S AND THEIR VEGGIES...AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THE SAME DIET TO OTHERS EVEN THOUGH SOME ON THE BOARD HAVE EXPRESSED CONTRARY OPINIONS.

[SammysMom]

Thank-you MJS! I do think it is more of a baby issue. The big guys are doing just fine. :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

Actually, the big guys are not doing fine. Maura's ones are going through the diarrhea and have been on the FV 20/50 for at least a month, started here with a fresh bag, and continued down home with Maura's bag.
Unless by big guys you mean spring babies. :grin2
When I opened the bag here, actually Maura was right here, I fixed it, and noticed the sides of the container were really gritty. That was the first time I saw grit on the sides of the container ever. I usually shake the **** out of it as well before loading the syringes, and this time, the sides of the bowl were a mess.
I have made my formula the same for the past 5+ years.
Prior to finding the board, I always used Goat's Milk Esbilac and Multi Milk, now
I'm wondering if I should go back to that?
I bought puppy Esbilac today for the very first time in my life. I'm going to start introducing that
tomorrow.
I don't think there were bigger supporters of FV than myself and Maura, but for me......Not anymore.

[SammysMom]

I meant Venus and Serena...virtual adults...:rofl4
Babies of all ages are still having huge issues!:sanp3