Zippy is having digestive problems again [Archive]

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-19-2007, 03:53 PM

When I first got Zippy last Saturday (March 10) she had clicking in her nose and possibly pneumonia, so I put her on antibiotics (Sulfa trim). She was very sick and didn't want to eat on Saturday and Sunday and slowly got better with each feeding on Monday. On Tuesday she was put to 3:1 Fox Valley formula and did great all day. She was digesting and sucking the milk down good. Then when she switched to 2:1 milk, her digestion slowed and she was not digesting all the milk, even after 6 hours. Her poop was still normal then, she was just digesting super slow and did not want to suck any milk down. On thursday I tried switching her to 3:1 to see if that would help, but she was still not digesting right.
On Thursday evening I decided to switch her to Zoologic 33/40 milk. I gave her three pedialyte feedings (well liquilytes from gerber but same thing) and she digested all the milk that she had left in her belly. Then on Friday morning I gave her 4:1 formula of the Zoologic. She drank it down great! I noticed that her poop was different (darker brown and stringy (a little liquidy too)) but didn't worry about it. She continued to do good after I switched her to 3:1 on Saturday and 2:1 on Sunday. Her poop was still sringy and a little runny though. So, I decided to give her a little bit of bene-bac (probiotic) since I thought that would help her poop. I thought the problem with her poop was because she didn't have enough of the good bacteria left since she was on antibiotics for a week. I gave her the bene-bac this morning before work, and when I got back home she had diarrhea and didn't want to suck her milk down. Her poop is very watery and light brown colored. I am not sure what to do. I think she has too much bacteria now. I am going to go and get her some more pedialyte and give her that to keep her hydrated. I was thinking about giving her albon, but I am not sure if that will help or make it worse. She is soooooooooooooooo sensitive.
Sorry the post is so long. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Oh, and she is about 3 weeks old and weighs 67 grams.
Also, this is my first time using Zoologic. Does anyone use it and know if squirrel's poop is normally brown and stringy when they are on it?

Mars

03-19-2007, 05:02 PM

I doubt it could be too much bacteria from the benbac, restoring probiotics cannot be done in just one dose. I would add a little organic yorgurt to the formula at each feeding. Can you get a fecal done? That would be a good indication for if the Albon is needed. How is the little ones weight? Is he gaining?

Gabe

03-19-2007, 06:40 PM

You and Zippy have sure been through the wringer here. I agree with Mars that the benebac did not do her any harm.
If you are considering coccidia and are unable to do a fecal, another indication is green, stringy poop that has a distinct odor.
She's gaining weight. You are feeding her four times a day now, right? How much is she eating per feeding?

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-19-2007, 07:14 PM

Her poop is watery and almost see through goo, slightly light brown. It doesn't have an odor. Yes, I am feeding her 4 times a day now. She was taking 4 cc a feeding but then this afternoon I could only get her to take three. She sucked the first two down and then swallowed the last one. I could get a fecal done at the wildlife center, but not until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest and I am not sure they do baby mammals (I have only heard about them doing birds of prey, ducks, and songbirds). I got her some pedialyte, I will try adding that to her milk and if she doesn't want that I will just give her pedialyte for a few feedings until she is feeling better, I sure hope she is feeling better soon. I will back her down to three to one for a few days after the pedialyte too to see if that helps although I don't think it is the milk because she was ok with the 2:1 all day yesterday. I will keep everyone posted, I hope she gets better soon, and stays that way! She seems to be getting better for a few days then sick then better then sick, I just want her to be healthy. She is gaining weight through it all though, so that is a good thing! She is a little fighter!

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-19-2007, 08:01 PM

Just got done feeding her. She drank 4 cc again this time. Not quite as eager as she should be but OK. She peed but didn't go #2, so I am not sure about the diarrhea. I gave her 3:1 milk with pedialyte mixed in in about a 1:1 ratio. She just loves pedialyte! I will let everyone know about her #2s in the morning, I am beat and heading to bed.
If anyone uses Zoologic, let me know how their #2s are when they are on it. I am just wondering if they are the light brown and slightly pasty like on other milk or if the brown and stringy was normal.

LynninIN

03-19-2007, 08:33 PM

TexanSquirrel

03-19-2007, 09:06 PM

I hope she gets better soon!

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 05:32 AM

I would say stringy with clear mucus. Definetly with clear mucus now.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 06:08 AM

Zippy seems to be doing a little bit better today. Her diarrhea is getting a little less watery and is turning more of a brown color. Her appetite is still not what it was before, but it is improving. I am still doing 50% milk and 50% pedialyte because I tried less pedialyte and she didn't want to suck it down. She really likes the pedialyte!

Abacat

03-20-2007, 06:21 AM

SR&B2 just read this about Zippy, I'm so glad she seems to be doing better. Thanks for keeping us posted. :thumbsup

LynninIN

03-20-2007, 06:39 AM

I would say stringy with clear mucus. Definetly with clear mucus now.
Zippy should have a fecal done. If the wildlife center does fecals on birds they should be able to help with Zippy's.
Glad she's better this morning.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 03:00 PM

I called the wildlife center and they do do fecals. Zippy will be going tomorrow to get one done (there was only one person there today and she was busy). They also think she needs more bacteria (I think she has too much) and are planning to give her night time #2s from their bunnies that they have. I don't like that plan at all! I don't think it will do any good and they can't get the night time ones from them because they eat it. I told her that and she says they don't eat it all. I don't like the idea of making my squirrel eat it after it has been sitting on the ground in that place. It is not super messy, but messy enough to make me nervous. I think that will make her more sick.
She also suggessted giving her baby antidiarrheal medicine and the yogurt. I don't want to give her anything because she is healthy otherwise. I just want to know if she has parasites. What should I do?
She sucked the milk down great for the 3:00 feeding. She drank 4 cc. She still has diarrhea but it is the right color for number 2s now, just watery and with mucus I think.

Mars

03-20-2007, 03:20 PM

Your instincts are good. The pellets from bunnies are not good for squirrels. It would be better to make a poop soup from a healthy squirrel if you want to go that route. Personally, I use yorgurt in all my formula, a little each feeding, until weaned. There is a difference between good and bad bacteria. You want to build up the good bacteria. Adding an anti diarhea med does not solve/address the underlying problem so I would not reccommend relying on them.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Thanks Mars, that is exactly what I was thinking! So you really think I should use the yogurt. I had a bad experience with yogurt and bunnies and haven't used it since. I really don't think the bacteria is the issue, but yogurt seems to be what everyone is suggesting. How much do I give her?

Mars

03-20-2007, 05:06 PM

Yogurt is not good for bunnies. It has far too many sugars in it for their unique digestive system. Bunnies are very different from squirrels. Yogurt is okay and good for squirrels. I start with a base formula after rehydration that looks like this:

1 tbl esbilac
2 tbl H2O
1/4 tsp yogurt

My final (weaning) formula for squirrels looks like this:

1 tbl esbilac
2+1/8 tbl H2O
1 tsp MM
1/8 tsp squirrel dust
1/4 tsp yogurt

:)

Pam

03-20-2007, 05:38 PM

Can you take a stool specimen in to the wildlife center and leave your squirrel at home? That's what my DH does...:dono

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 06:09 PM

They told me to bring a sample and the squirrel. I just hope they don't think they are going to take her back, that is what worries me! They won't get her back though. She will be coming home with me, but it does worry me because I try to get along with everyone there but I don't like how things are run. I would not leave any of my creatures there overnight because I know they would come home sick. I am planning to feed her before I go though, then when I get there and they want to give her the number twos from the bunnies I will just ask for them in a bag and tell them I will give them to her later (lol).
Thanks for the info Mars! So it is safe to give her the yogurt at every feeding? I got her Giant Eagle Brand Smooth Essentials Plain. I will add that to the milk with the next feeding. I know quite a few people that use yogurt with bunnies and claim to have no trouble, but mine got diarrhea the same day they had it and all died a week later.

Gabe

03-20-2007, 06:27 PM

You will more than likely get a postive fecal for parasites. Squirrels can carry up to five different types at a time. I learned this from one of my volunteers that is a Penn State Biology major this past summer. It was some research project they were working on. Anyway, don't worry too much about the parasites, they are normal. If Zippy has too many, which are causing the diarrhea, then you need to treat them. Look specifically for coccidia.

As for morning feces from bunnies, they look like a rosary, all attached like a string. The bunny eats them, and even helps to pull them out like a strand of spaghetti as he is eating it. They never touch the ground, but go directly into the mouth. (Are you grossed out yet?). They are not loose, lying around the cage. It is a very specific stool. Not just any pellets passed during the night.

Yogurt won't make her worse. Her good bacteria are lacking, probably from the antibiotics and the parasites have taken over giving her diarrhea.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-20-2007, 06:42 PM

Thanks Gabe. I know about the bunny poop thing, I have had lots of experience because that is what I used to use with my baby bunnies after they opened their eyes to give them the good bacteria. I would put an Elizebethan collar on my bunny so he couldn't eat them and then collect them in the morning (well actually around 1:00 AM to make sure they were fresh for the baby bunnies. Jim was a great sport for this, it was like he liked helping the little ones. He let me put the collar right on him and didn't give me any trouble. He has retired from his job now though, because he is 8 years old and the last few times I tried to get him to donate they were watery and I didn't feel like it was safe to give to the bunnies.
As far as the people at the wildlife center, I don't think they have ever tried it. These bunnies that they have were dumped in the parking lot of the center about 2 months ago and the people at the center liked them and since they can't keep domestics usually, they are putting these bunnies to "work". Their job is to donate whenever needed for I thought just bunnies but I guess squirrels too. I don't think the people have a clue about the night time poop thing. They think there will be some left in the morning, I told them no but they insisted there would be (I think they think the smashed to the ground pellet poos are the right thing). Don't worry though, little Zippy won't be eating any. I just can't wait until they get baby bunnies and it is time to actually mix the #2s with milk, heat it up and feed it to the baby bunnies. I can't wait to see their faces. The domestic bunnies will be gone by the end of the summer, guarenteed. I did the mix it with milk for 2 and a half years and didn't mind. It grosses most people out though.

TexanSquirrel

03-20-2007, 08:56 PM

:yuck :yuck :yuck

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-21-2007, 05:24 AM

Zippy is doing about the same this morning. She gained 3 grams from yesterday to today (she is up to 74 grams now). I gave her the yogurt last night and at the middle of the night feeding and her diarrhea hasn't gotten any worse so I am happy! It may have improved a little bit, not sure though. Is it ok to mix the yogurt with the milk you are making for the day and then use it for multiple feedings? Or does the yogurt bacteria multiply even more in the milk and cause problems for her?

Mars

03-21-2007, 08:31 AM

Good morning. It is best to mix your formula fresh for each feeding. Okay that said I know it is not always possible or practical.:D And, yes, the bacteria will start to grow if the mixture is kept warm. Just remember this is the good bacteria :) . Keep your formula in the refrig until ready to heat and it should be fine. The bacteria is damaged/killed if over heated or frozen.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-21-2007, 10:58 AM

It should be fine then. I mixes the powder, water and yogurt to make the milk. Then I heat up just what I need for the feeding. The rest goes into the fridge and isn't heated until it is needed.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-21-2007, 06:26 PM

I took Zippy in to the wildlife center today for her fecal. I was relieved they didn't want to keep her. They said she is negative for worms and parasites. They said she was looking pretty good and was only very slightly dehydrated. So, she recommended the #2s, which I won't be giving her (they weren't even the night time number 2s, just regular ones), yogurt, and immodium AD or Pepto Bismol, which I also won't be using. I did order deliver from Chris's squirrels and More site, so if she still has the diarrhea when that comes I will give her that.
They also looked at her tail and wanted to know what happened. They hadn't even noticed it when she arrived (and they are suppossed to look over each animal when it comes in). They said if it gets infected they will have to knock her out and amputate it, which made sense, but then she said they would glue the tip back on. What would be the point in gluing a dead tail tip back on?

Here are some pictures of Zippy's tail:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/4bunnies/000_3373.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/4bunnies/000_3382.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/4bunnies/000_3371.jpg

It looks to me like the tip is going to fall off, but I am not sure. What do you think?

Pam

03-21-2007, 06:40 PM

Maybe they meant that they would amputate the tip of the tail and the glue the tip closed instead of suturing it.

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-21-2007, 08:12 PM

Maybe that's it. I hope she doesn't have to have it amputated, but if she does, I definetely don't want it glued back on! Gluing the tip would make sense I guess.

Pam

03-21-2007, 09:09 PM

When puppy tails are docked, sometimes, they use glue instead of sutures to close up the skin.

TexanSquirrel

03-22-2007, 07:56 PM

No cutting puppy tails off! That makes me sad. :(

Critter_Queen

03-23-2007, 10:13 AM

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-23-2007, 11:53 AM

I do have my own permit. I have the category 1 permit, which allows me to take in baby bunnies and squirrels on my own. I have tried suggessting things to them nicely and I would love to teach them all about the rabbit poop thing (they didn't even have the night time kind, just a regular number 2) but they don't listen. They act like I don't know what to do and that they know everything.

That idea for the tail sounds much better than having her get knocked out and operated on. Do you think it will work? It seems like the circulation is already cut off to the tail tip (it is hard, doesn't move, and is not warm) though, so maybe it will just fall off on its own?

acorniv

03-27-2007, 12:12 PM

Hmmm...maybe I'm way off base, but why knock her out to amputate? Couldn't you just tie something around that part of her tail and cut the circulation off instead? Heck, my DOCTOR (my human one) told hubby and I we can tie a thread around little moles we don't like on our bodies and they will fall off painlessly in a few days to a week... I can't imagine it would be traumatic for a squirrel to have a damaged tail tip removed that way

:eek ! don't just tie a string aorund it! Tails have a LOT of nerves in them because they use them for communicaiton and sense with them. Think about the sensitivity of a mole, vs your fingertips ( or lips). It's not the same!

I had a cat whose tail got broken - - we have no idea how. She was in AGONY until it healed and that took a very long time, because they can't put it in a cast or anything, so it keeps moving. My vet felt terrible for her, and told me tails are the most sensitve part of the body. It's prbably a lot less painful to have it amptated, so I'd be inclined to make quick work of it, rather than let it drop off, unless she seems not to be bothered. I know Squrrel tails come off easily for their portection, but I also know they sense with them.

She's quite the cutie pie!

Good luck with her tummy. My cat is on famotidine tabs - I htn tha tis the same as Immonium AD? She gets 5 mg's with each meal, or as needed, for her stomach, because she had an ulcer. Pepto Bismal can be toxic - make SURE you use the vet safe sort ( make sure your vet knows) if you go that route. What about Tums? It's calcium, so has that benefit. Is that safe? Anyone know? You could shave some into formula if so? Both my cats have chronic tummy trouble, and it is no picnic trying to find the balance for them.

I remember when coccidia went around my neighborhood when I was in highschool. I'm petty sure that was what it was - am I wrong about the malady? I had a pet hen then ( great pet!) and kittens, and they all got it. The feds came door to door asking for fowl to check and tested them. They told us to feed them all heavy cream. Everyone got well really fast, and I never saw a cure that made the patients so happy :multi . That chicken, even more than the kittens, LOVED the cream!

Does anyone know if this was coccidia or what it was?

Laurel

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-27-2007, 01:11 PM

The reason Critter Queen suggessted tying a string around the tail is because it is already hard and black so it is going to either be dead and hanging there (it won't heal) or it will fall off. It seems like the blood supply is already cut off to it though, so I am thinking it will fall off on its own. I am going to see how it goes. She did not want me to tie the string around the entire tail either, just the tip that is not getting fur and is hard. It is just like the last inch, the rest of her tail is furry and flexible, so it will be fine.

I got the deliver in the mail for her diarrhea yesterday and gave her 4.6 cc of it at 3:00 (she wouldn't take any more than that). She has had "deliver" poop since then and that is normal for her to have that for a day or two I guess. We'll see how it goes after her regular poop comes back, I am hoping it will be normal and not runny now that she has had the deliver. Her digestion is great with the Zoologic milk and she really likes it, so that is a huge plus!

Pam

03-27-2007, 01:35 PM

:wave123 SR&BT- I usually don't offer vet advise, but I did ask my husband about this little squirrel and I showed him pictures. He said that the string recommendation that CQ gave would be just fine. He said the tail tip is dead and it IS going to fall off. He said you could speed it along and go ahead and cut the tip off. Be sure and have a silver nitrate stick handy in case there is any bleeding. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

Critter_Queen

03-27-2007, 02:19 PM

Oh, yeah, don't worry...I wasn't trying to hurt anyone. :) I do think that it would be an appropriate solution in some cases...and some folks may not know that lambs' tails are routinely doc'ed by tying a very tight rubber band around the tail. At least they did it that way 10 years ago when I still knew about that kinda thing. :) I can't imagine a shepherd actually paying the vet to doc all the tails of his lambs each year (they aren't wealthy people usually)...and you don't wanna KNOW how they neuter male goats! *faints* That's what drove my brother out of vet school after five years. :(

I do think the tail tip will fall off on it's own, though. Just keep a close watch for infection. Even a very slight one could be causing her diarrhea. Is she on any antibiotics? I can't remember...

Pam

03-27-2007, 02:29 PM

CQ- and they enjoy a feast after they finish neutering the sheep...mountain oysters...YUK!

Critter_Queen

03-27-2007, 02:37 PM

CQ- and they enjoy a feast after they finish neutering the sheep...mountain oysters...YUK!

Oh Yeah! I bartended in a small farming town about 11ish years ago and they had a big "rocky mountain oyster" feast. :yuck But I'm pretty sure they were PIG TESTICLES not goats... ugh.... *turns green*

Pam

03-27-2007, 02:42 PM

CQ - Mountain oysters can also be from bulls...my DH tried them at a vet conference in Kansas...I'll just take his word about how good they were....YUK!! I don't even eat oysters!!!

squirrelsrule&bunniestoo

03-27-2007, 04:51 PM

Zippy was on antibiotics for her pneumonia for the first week but has been off of them for about a week and a half. Her tail doesn't look infected or anything (it is hard and dark colored and isn't flexible). I will keep an eye on it. If it will fall off on its own then I will just leave it go. If it needs some help coming off I would much rather do the string thing than risk it with having her knocked out (they would do the operation at the wildlife center and the last time I took a squirrel for an operation (warble removal) they weren't successful in knocking her out and she almost died (quit breathing for a few seconds and they said uh oh, I think I killed your squirrel). I picked her up and rubbed her thougha and she was fine and they did the surgery by just numbing up the area).