Help with MBD complications needed ASAP

[zoeetal]

I've been treating this 5-6 week old squirrel for MBD for a week now. She showed symptoms including tremors, dehydration, twitching, and muscle control loss last week and did really well on calcium supplements. She's been a great eater all week of Fox Valley formula into which I've been putting calcium carbonate powder (approximately 400mg/day). She was climbing, eating really well, moving about, and seemed generally on-the-mend.

Today she's much weaker, is crawling off her heat, her eye's are bulging and sticky, and her appetite has gone way down. She's had pretty bad, yellow diarrahea all week for which I got homeopathic remedy podophyllum 30c for her today and just gave her a small dose of it in 2mls of water. I also just gave her 3ccs of subQ fluids. This morning I began adding Henry's protein powder and vita-mins to her formula as well.

Any ideas on what she's dealing with and how to treat please? She's having what looks like tiny convulsions or twitching over her body about once per second now.

[CritterMom]

I just don't see a squirrel of that age having MBD unless it was never given ANY formula.

I believe I would cut out the calcium - 400mg a day is what you would give an adult so it is really, really high. I would also hydrate - orally if you can - with just warm sugar water - a teaspoon of sugar in a cup of water. Hold off on the formula and just hydrate her for the next few hours, then start her back on FV diluted 3 to 1, gradually strengthing it to 2 to 1 over several feedings. You can use the sugar water to make up the FV and the added sugar may help any hypoglycemia. I wouldn't add anything else to the FV - no vitamins, no protein powder - it has what she needs already.

MBD is an older squirrel's disease - it usually shows up after they wean - they get their calcium from the formula, but then they wean and if their human isn't up on squirrel nutrition, THAT is when the trouble starts, NOT while they are still nursing...

[Jackie in Tampa]

sounds like hypercalcemia...
do as crittermom has posted...
overdosing will cause NO ABSORBTION OF ANYTHING.... all nutritin is being pooped away... failure to thrive follows...seizures next, then death...stop all calcium supplimentation, push sugar water ... no sub Q please, oral is best atm.
I am unfamiliar with homopathic treatment mentioned, but I would assume the diarrhea is diet related and would not continue with this until sq is active and can be assessd.
what formula are you using?
could this sq have head trauma?
:grouphug

[farrelli]

Should some molasses or other syrup also be given in case it's low blood sugar?

[zoeetal]

Thanks! I've just given her a few mls of warm sugar water. Is that better than pedialyte? (which I have). I was afraid of it being hypercalcemia. She's been fed Fox Valley 32/40 for squirrels since she came to us about 3 weeks ago. I'm just going to hydrate her with simple warm sugar water for the next day or so. She's so skinny though - swollen belly but all bones everywhere else. Any other suggestions? No head trauma.

[farrelli]

Is she bloated? Her belly should feel like a partially full water balloon, not at all hard and round. Is she pooping and peeing? Are they normal? Is she straining?

[Jackie in Tampa]

pics please..
as i said... nothing absorbs when the intestines are stripped of flora and the blood is loaded with calcium..
this can be very tricky... I am not the right brain to help you...
salt can be deadly if renal failure is possibility...
why are you adding extra suppliments to FV?
is this a grey sq?
let me do some quick reads and brb...
if anyone knows emergency aid for hypercalcemia... please p[ost
do you have a vet?...
no sub Q...that's salt....
benbac, do you have any?
brb...

[Jackie in Tampa]

molasses has minut calcium... I would not use right now... but maybe fareelli knows something I don't...not stepping on toes..peace sign here*

[CritterMom]

You can give some pedialyte as well since there IS some diarrhea - I would swap back and forth between that and the sugar water (the sodium in pedialyte help get the electrolytes back in line after diarrhea or vomitting but it is hard on the kidneys). Since you have both, go back and forth a bit, and in a few hours, see how her appetite for the FV is. Please note - I mentioned earlier that you can use the sugar water to make up the FV formula. The same is NOT true of pedialyte - don't mix that with formula. If she takes the 3 to 1 FV okay, continue giving her some hydration in between feedings. Once the poops firm up, gradually get her to the 2 to 1 mixture with the FV and if that goes well you can look into adding something like Ultra Boost to the formula.

This one may just need extra hydration in addition to her formula for a while.

Edit...and listen to whatever Jackie suggests.

[farrelli]

I don't think the level of cal in molasses would be really harmful, but that's why I suggested other syrups as well, but the sugar water probably helps. Perhaps a probiotic would also be a good idea if not already suggested?

[zoeetal]

No bloat. Her belly is soft. She doesn't strain to pee or poop. Her poop flows right out of her easily and fairly continually. It does seem like she may not be absorbing what she needs from her food because I know that Fox Valley is perfectly balanced, and she's been fed that since she's been with us.

She was fine when she arrived with her litter, was always the runt but strong, then got weak, tremors, twitches, blue eyes, etc. and was advised to supplement for MBD. She got much better, stronger, etc. then suddenly went downhill again. If it's not MBD and is now hypercalcemia, I can't figure out what happened in the beginning or what other complications she could be suffering from or how to fix them :thinking

For the moment I just want to stabilize her so no salt or SubQ, just sugar water.

Yes, she's an eastern grey.

Thanks so much for the help! She's resting now - no more twitching.

Pics to come!

[Jackie in Tampa]

i would not use any salt...
I would use water plain myself if she is responsive..
and I do recommend benbac right now, just a small pearl sized bead in her mouth...as a probiotic to get some gut bacteria...
her intestines are ravaged and I bet her kidneys have stones... young tissues are going to damage much easier... I sy water if she is responsive and ben bac.. in a few hours maybe start a very dilute Fv, no sugar added...she needs her guts fixed first....FV will not digest or absorb... that is what hypercacemia does....
we need her to pee pee and pee some more....

[Jackie in Tampa]

when blue eyes are NOT associated to blindness it can indicate trauma as well as diet issues... I always treat diet wise above all because that is the easiest to fix or note...
can you get acidiopholis from drug store or better would be ben bac from pet store...

[Jackie in Tampa]

diarrhea is def from the digestive issues...or lack of... no gas X or any poop fixes please....be very careful with what goes in her right now our goal is to protect her kidneys...and bones.

[zoeetal]

picture

[Jackie in Tampa]

keep her warm, feed only warm, no baths, no chills
neosporin on her bum or triple antiB if red and angry...
she is running on empty, everything is a challange, no nutrition means no energy, swallowing is probably an effort.......
go slow... small amounts more frequent will be best...
:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[farrelli]

Any chance you're in the GTA and could take another squirrel?

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40807

[Jackie in Tampa]

be still my beating heart... she is a black baby:Love_Icon
what is her name...
:Love_Icon

[zoeetal]

Thanks so much for all your help. Her name is Shakti, after the supreme feminine force in Hinduism. I like to give the weak ones strong names :)

I'm going to run out for some benbac now that she's peacefully sleeping. Thanks for everything. I'll keep you updated. If you think of anything else please let me know.

Sorry Farrelli, I'm in Ottawa.

[Nancy in New York]

If you have fleece, please put a huge pile in with her, or blankets or anything that you would put a baby in. Squirrels love to burrow down and they also need a place to go higher if the heating pad gets too warm. Some have been known to overheat even on low, so better safe than sorry. No towels, nothing that may catch her little nails.
Is she on a heating pad?
Set it on low and put it half under her container.
Is that diarreha on her?
Is her mouth wet? Wipe that off with a cotton ball or tissue, if you
leave formula on a squirrel their fur falls out, it's called milk burn.
Either way, if it's wet, and goes to her skin, it will make her cold. Her
body needs all the energy she has for other things so you can provide the warmth.

[Jackie in Tampa]

reading and getting the info we should use the salt in the hydration fluid... it will stimulate kidney and both calcium and sodium will be expelled quicker....
does anyone have any input on this?
going back to reading...

[Nancy in New York]

reading and getting the info we should use the salt in the hydration fluid... it will stimulate kidney and both calcium and sodium will be expelled quicker....
does anyone have any input on this?
going back to reading...


Jackie have you seen this?


This is from Chickenlegs: OK so here it is. The babies do have diarrhea so might need some electrolytes but here's the info that was a TSB original from years back sent to me by Sissy a couple of years ago

"Ive been doing this a long time and have found out some things by necropsy, and some by a brilliant DVM with a double masters in nutrition. She has always picked my methods apart, and then told me "why". Today recovering dehydrated and emaciated animals is one of my specialties along with wounds and bone breaks. Ive got this down and I hope my experiences will help you to master these methods.
In small mammals as small as squirrels, you are always better off to re hydrate with glucose or sugar water than pedialyte when the animal is dehydrated from lack of fluids or milk. Theres a few reasons, but mainly the preservatives that are used in the commercial electrolytes for human consumption. In a human sized kidney, or even a large breed puppy, not a big deal, but in the kidneys of a tiny squirrel, you have these little filters the size of half to a whole pea, and they are battling to keep the impurities out of the blood which is now thickened and concentrated, in a body that cannot afford to flush them out because it cant afford the fluid loss to make urine. The kidneys are already in trouble. Those chemicals are immediately caught in the kidneys because the body cannot use them for anything. Pedialyte often contains dye and flavoring which should never be used, but the preservatives alone can cause problems you wont even see. In cross section
necropsies of kidneys for other rehabbers, I have found crystals, inflammation and blockage from Pedialyte and Gatorade. The Gatorade is just insane. I wont even drink it after seeing how the kidneys are affected. I have necropsied HUGE BLUE Gatorade kidneys! When the body is dehydrated and the kidneys are that small, we must only give the system things it can break down and use. There is no room for added chemicals. We have to stay as pure as possible.

I think most folks make their own rehydration fluid so skip that part unless pedialyte is part of the arsenal


In dehydration from starvation, just go with 1 tsp per cup warm water, infant glucose water or dextrose and water. The body can use that sugar. It makes a world of difference in stabilizing your baby and getting them back up. You can feed only the sugar water or glucose for a day, day and a half, and start adding your protein (formula) to the glucose or sugar water in reduced amounts, keeping them on the sugar until they rehydrate and their weight is back up. The BONUS to this is that they burn the sugar as energy which causes the body to store the protein, which brings weight up more effectively. The ADDED BONUS is that you can mix your protein and your rehydration fluid. You CANNOT MIX ELECTROLYTES AND PROTEIN. You cancel them both out by doing this. You will starve your baby of all help by doing this. Never never mix.
In an animal dehydrated from starvation or lack of fluids, they havent lost electrolytes as they would have from a case of diarrhea, to which an electrolyte can be used. Since sugar can actually cause diarrhea (which it will NOT do in a dehydrated animal), in an animal dehydrated from diarrhea, I recommend unflavored Pedialyte given BETWEEN protein feedings, or alternate with a starch like rice cereal water. I still use the infant glucose for this, and if I have to give an electrolyte, I use reconstituted mammal electrolyte powder.
Often protein can cause diarrhea if its an alien source, so pulling the protein and adding a starch will often do the trick. Remember, starch converts to sugar. Starch actually IS a long chain sugar, so no need to ad sugar when using a starch. Its amazing how the two are so similarly used by the body, but produce the opposite result in therapy!
Anyway, I hope something here helps!
Annette
Wild Heart Ranch

This may not help at all but those babies really are skinny--starving. Get better babies :Love_Icon

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I have that saved too Nancy and was just thinking I should put it up , glad someone else was thinking about it too.

[Jackie in Tampa]

no no no... yes the issue is somewhat about dehydration..AND ESPECIALLY REHYDRATIOn...but
what we are dealing with above and right now is calcium overdose...toxicity...
and that may have ramifications on the kidneys..
yes diarrhea makes a body dehydrated.. all the more reason to never give pedi more than 24 hours...the kidneys are being hit with a double whammy...
so far I am have read to use the salt....to expedite urination...
to help clear the calcium...

do we have an update on the little one

[Nancy in New York]

no no no... yes the issue is somewhat about dehydration..AND ESPECIALLY REHYDRATIOn...but
what we are dealing with above and right now is calcium overdose...toxicity...
and that may have ramifications on the kidneys..
yes diarrhea makes a body dehydrated.. all the more reason to never give pedi more than 24 hours...the kidneys are being hit with a double whammy...
so far I am have read to use the salt....to expedite urination...
to help clear the calcium...

do we have an update on the little one

Gottcha Jackie, so she should only use the homemade pedialyte keeping the salt in.:thumbsup
1 tsp salt (teaspoon)
3 Tbsp sugar (tablespoon)
1 quart warm water

Keep refrigerated.

[zoeetal]

Sad news... my little girlie just passed peacefully in my hands a few moments ago. Thank you everyone who replied for all of your help and suggestions. I'd been keeping her warm, feeding her warm water with sugar and probiotics a couple mls at a time for the past few hours, and near the end rubbed a little corn syrup on her lips. When I realised we were probably beyond the point of no return I stopped fighting it and within minutes she let go and is finally at rest after a long, hard week.

...I just read the other replies you guys had written since my last post. You guys are AMAZING! Thanks so much for your urgency, resourcefulness and attention. This has been a great education. I'd kept a log of what I did over the week and will review it and study up on the information you have posted to make sure I learn what I can from this. I hate to think I brought this on her - she was so revived by having the calcium in the first place. She also had symptoms long before the calcium which is why I'd even started giving it to her. It's possible she'd had prior complications that the calcium originally helped, then hindered. Any ideas on that?

Really, can't thank you all enough. This board is an amazing resource. Much love.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

:sad

[Jackie in Tampa]

awe sweet baby sq...
I am so sorry.... please stay around and shrae the other babies with us...
there is many years experience here... alot of info..

this sure sounded like classic calcium toxicity....:(

rest in peace baby Shakti:Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

I'm so terribly sorry for your loss.
But I find comfort in knowing that she
passed peacefully in your hands.

Rest in Peace
Precious Angel 205027

[SammysMom]

Godspeed little one...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon