Bladder/Kidney Stones

[Toddy]

I think my 4 year old North American grey squirrel may have bladder or kidney stones! I am pushing fluids and watching her diet very carefully, but not sure what else to do.

Is there a medication that would help with breaking up the stones?

Any particular food that is helpful in a situation like this?

[Milo's Mom]

What is she doing that makes you think she has bladder/kidney stones?

[Toddy]

I suspect stones or crystals in the urine due to the following symptoms:

- increased attempts to urinate
- squinted eyes during urination (discomfort)
- abdominal movement during urination, or what appears to be "straining"
- difficulty emptying the bladder completely

Overall a change in her normal bathroom routine. Something is not right...

I would appreciate any info you have!

[farrelli]

Are you the same person with the question about crystals in urine a few days ago? Can you detail the diet? Have you tried cranberries and antibiotics to address a possible UTI? Have you looked at the urine to determine its color and smell?

[CritterMom]

I think you have posted before.

I have gotten UTIs all my life. You feel like you have to pee ALL the time, strain to go, and it hurts like blazes when you do so you don't get it all out and you dribble. But enough about ME - does that sound familiar?

Humans get prescribed either sulfa meds or cipro for these. The same is true for squirrels. Cipro is REALLY powerful, effective stuff providing it works on the bug in particular; the sulfa meds are slower to work but almost always effective on urinary tract infections. I think I suggested a round of SMZ-TMP for this little gal if you can get some. Dietary changes were also recommended but if she is not improving I would personally try the meds.

[Toddy]

Are you the same person with the question about crystals in urine a few days ago? Can you detail the diet? Have you tried cranberries and antibiotics to address a possible UTI? Have you looked at the urine to determine its color and smell?

Yes, that is me! I was worried about crystals, but am now worried that it may be stones.

Her urine is a light to medium yellow with no visual signs of blood. The smell is about the same as normal, not strong or overly offensive.

Her normal diet consisted of:
1 HHB
Nectarine
Strawberry
Blueberries
Lettuce
Snap peas
Pure apple juice
White mushroom
Orange
Cauliflower
Yogurt

I have changed her diet dramatically the last few days, hoping that it may help her situation. Now all I am giving her is:

2 HHB
Pure cranberry juice
Frozen cranberries (can't find fresh ones this time of year)
Pure apple juice
Small square of nectarine
Small square of fresh acorn squash
1/4 white mushroom

With the diet change I am trying to acidify the urine to help break up any possible stones. I fear that her diet was too alkaline in the past, so trying to bump up the acidity presently.

I have not tried the SMZ-TMP yet....

[Toddy]

I think you have posted before.

I have gotten UTIs all my life. You feel like you have to pee ALL the time, strain to go, and it hurts like blazes when you do so you don't get it all out and you dribble. But enough about ME - does that sound familiar?

Humans get prescribed either sulfa meds or cipro for these. The same is true for squirrels. Cipro is REALLY powerful, effective stuff providing it works on the bug in particular; the sulfa meds are slower to work but almost always effective on urinary tract infections. I think I suggested a round of SMZ-TMP for this little gal if you can get some. Dietary changes were also recommended but if she is not improving I would personally try the meds.

Yes, that was me! The problem still persists and I am getting really worried!

What you are describing with the UTI sounds exactly like what she may have. How do you tell the different between a UTI and bladder/kidney stones without doing an X-ray?

I do have access to SMZ-TMP, but no Cipro or sulfa meds.

[CritterMom]

Yes, that was me! The problem still persists and I am getting really worried!

What you are describing with the UTI sounds exactly like what she may have. How do you tell the different between a UTI and bladder/kidney stones without doing an X-ray?

I do have access to SMZ-TMP, but no Cipro or sulfa meds.

SMZ is sulfa :D the "TMP" is Trimethiprim - it is a combination of two drugs.

If you can get a vet to look at the urine - perhaps tell them it is a pet rat (??) they can look for blood - it is not necessarily going to be visible. A pee test will indicate or not a UTI and then you continue treatment based on that info. Without diagnostic testing, you go on your gut.

The SMZ-TMP is a fairly benign drug - it has a wide dosing range and is not a gut buster though I recommend probiotic when giving meds (try to separate the two - if you give meds say at 6AM and 6PM, give the probiotics around noon).

[Russ2762]

if i take my baby to the vet will they take her from me?

[farrelli]

I'm sorry, I forgot to reply to this thread. As I understand it, you have SMZ-TMP, or could get it? If so, if you get it and tell us the weight of your squirrel, we can provide you with the correct dose.

As to the vet, if you are in an illegal state, the vet could seize or euthanize the squirrel. You would have to really trust the vet for treatment, and if you don't know them, ideally not give your address, never let the squirrel out of your site, and be ready to grab them and run if things get dicey. Probably most vets wouldn't do this, but questions must be asked before you show up. You have nothing to loose by calling around.

[Toddy]

Yes, I do have SMZ-TMP. Her weight is approx. 2.5 lbs for dosing purposes.

I have called around to the vet offices, telling them that I have a "rat" but they all say I would have to bring her in before they can give me any advise or treatment. So no help for me there....

[Jackie in Tampa]

have you decided the issue is not crystals, but a UTI?
I can help with dosing medications, but I cannot diagnose...
you are the sqs eyes and ears...
let me know if you would like me to help with the break down/dosing...
in a PM please.
how is your sq acting? eating? groin fur discoloration?
urinates with strain? urine odd colored? any blood?

[Toddy]

have you decided the issue is not crystals, but a UTI?
I can help with dosing medications, but I cannot diagnose...
you are the sqs eyes and ears...
let me know if you would like me to help with the break down/dosing...
in a PM please.
how is your sq acting? eating? groin fur discoloration?
urinates with strain? urine odd colored? any blood?

Crystals, stones, UTI, I have no way of knowing for sure the exact issue. I do not know how to tell the difference between them...

She is acting her usual self, besides the changes in her bathroom routine. She is eating normally too. She sometimes has some wetness in the groin area from the urine drip, but she is very clean and washes herself soon after.

Yes, she is urinating more frequently with strain. The urine appears to be normal in color, no visual signs of blood. I have done a urine strip test and it came up positive for small amounts of hemoglobin.

Sorry, not sure what a PM is, or how to do it...

[CritterMom]

Scroll up one post to Jackie in Tampa's response and click where her name is written in blue. A window will drop down - select to send a private message. You can communicate personal information this way without it showing on the board - only you and she will see it.

She will need the strength of the SMZ-TMP that you have and the weight of your squirrel and she can instruct you how to dilute it.

[Unikorngrrl]

Yes, that was me! The problem still persists and I am getting really worried!

What you are describing with the UTI sounds exactly like what she may have. How do you tell the different between a UTI and bladder/kidney stones without doing an X-ray?

I do have access to SMZ-TMP, but no Cipro or sulfa meds.

I can tell you from personal experience (kidney stones 7 times, surgery to burst stones up twice) that kidney stones are extraordinarily painful. They aren't kidding when they compare it to child birth. I doubt you would be touching her if she had stones...I would have bitten you had you touched me while I had kidney stones!!! I think it would be more obviously painful. They're probably hitting the nail on the head with the UTI...

[Jackie in Tampa]

if UTI, I couldn't recommend a better medication than SMZ-TMP.
it's perfect.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I can tell you from personal experience (kidney stones 7 times, surgery to burst stones up twice) that kidney stones are extraordinarily painful. They aren't kidding when they compare it to child birth. I doubt you would be touching her if she had stones...I would have bitten you had you touched me while I had kidney stones!!! I think it would be more obviously painful. They're probably hitting the nail on the head with the UTI...I agree, painful as all get out, have known humans with them,oye...

[Toddy]

Here is another thread that had some good advise:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32022&highlight=Stones

[Unikorngrrl]

Don't know it this helps or matters, but I read something about kidney stones being caused by low calcium. It's actually caused by too much calcium or at least the Calcium Oxalate version. At least that is what my Urologist told me and the diet change definitely helped. When they did my cystoscopes to remove mine, both times they were the same. I had to cut out all dairy products, tea, green beans, blueberries, Tums, and so on...anything Ca Oxalate related...I'm sure there is a "diet" online somewhere for that, I used to have a copy from the Dr. but have no clue where it is now.

[Loopy Squirrel]

The only way to truly rule out stones is an ultrasound and/or x-ray and crystals is to look at the urine sediment under a microscope. So if you can't get to a vet the safest thing to do is to try a course of SMZ for a UTI and see if it helps. It certainly won't hurt her. If problems continue you can either change the antibiotic or go a longer course. If it still does not improve then it's time to find a willing vet.

[Toddy]

I can tell you from personal experience (kidney stones 7 times, surgery to burst stones up twice) that kidney stones are extraordinarily painful. They aren't kidding when they compare it to child birth. I doubt you would be touching her if she had stones...I would have bitten you had you touched me while I had kidney stones!!! I think it would be more obviously painful. They're probably hitting the nail on the head with the UTI...

After reading this, she probably doesn't have stones (thankfully!) because she doesn't appear to be in any pain other then when she is actually urinating. So, I'm thinking a UTI or a build up of crystals in the bladder.

I was able to acquire some urine testing strips to measure her urine ph, to see if her diet was too high/low in acidity/alkalinity. From my research, a sq's ph should be the same as a humans, around 7-7.5 (neutral). Well, her reading was 8-8.5, way too alkaline! That would explain the high occurrence of crystal formation, and hence her urinary problems. I also read that a high calcium to magnesium ratio diet can also result in crystal formation.

A serious diet revamp is now in the works! Fingers crossed!

[Unikorngrrl]

It's certainly worth a try. Jax used to LOVE oranges, but I would cut one segement into 3-4 pieces. He was so tiny. Maybe your baby will eat oranges?!? They have plenty of acid! Hope all goes well!! :thumbsup

[Toddy]

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of their help!

My little Tod seems to be feeling a lot better! I held off on giving her any medication, and instead tried altering her diet. It appears to have worked! She is urinating normally again and as active as ever!

My guess is that she had crystals in her urine, which were causing her the problems.

In a nutshell...
2 HHB, a balanced ca/mg ratio diet and a balanced urine ph.

TSB is a life saver! Thanks again!

[Unikorngrrl]

AWESOME news Toddy!! So glad you gave us an update and so glad you found the help you needed here. This really is a great group of people ;) Yay Yay Yay that your little one is feeling better!!!!! :thumbsup :grouphug :Love_Icon

[PennyCash]

So glad she is feeling better and no medicine was needed. :D :D :grouphug :D