5 week old, lethargic, possible internal injuries

[kastillo]

I picked up two five week olds this morning. two males, 70grams each. One has eyes it's eyes open, the other is eyes closed or just not opening them. They are siblings, their tree was cut down and the finder brought them to the local wildlife vet.

I'm at a loss with the one that's worse off. He did seem to have a very small amount of dried blood in his nose. It's probably dying. I'm doing everything I know to help it.

Here's what I've given him, since I don't know what exactly's wrong.

Dexamethisone
Baytril
Sub q'ed one cc twice today.
Tried giving homemade pedilyte every 30 min to an hour all day.

He breathing is labored, he's lethargic and not really swallowing any hydration mix.
He was clicking earlier today, but I don't believe it's pneumonia, since he has not had the chance to be aspirated, and it not constant, it was bad earlier today, and is improved tonight.
It seems it's difficult to swallow for him. A few times when he tried to swallow the hydration mix he would cough or sneeze. I'm going drop by drop and still it's mostly running out the side of his mouth.
Do yall think he could have a collapsed lung. I'm just at a loss because there are no visible injuries, except the tiny amount of blood in the nose, definitely not the worst I've ever seen.
Possibly a head injury?

Any help is appreciated, I will be up through the night and try to check back here often,

[Rhapsody]

Is he wobbling when he tries to move around or falls over when moving? --since the eyes are not completely open yet I know they are prob not moving enough to go in circles which would help us determine if there was a head injury or not.

Your little one sounds like one of mine from last year that fell from a tree and hurt its back and had a bad bloody nose, he was lethargic for four days and could not move to well (I gave him prednisone to help with swelling) and by the end of the week he was up and walking.

I also kept him warm on a heating blanket and kept his nose well cleaned out with warm salt water and a q-tip --this will take a few days to fully clear.

[kastillo]

He's not trying to move at all.
His nose is already cleared, there wasn't much blood at all. You really had to look to tell.

Does Dex work the same as prednisone?
I hope so, that is the only thing I have available. The wild mammal babies book says it's the drug for shock and swelling, it's a steroid anti inflammatory.

I'm going to keep trying with him, he only moves to scratch his face every once in a while. The home made pedi is leaking out on his cheeks and making him itchy. I'm trying to clean it, but I don't want to mess with him too much in case he has broken ribs, collapsed lung, etc.....

I had one last year similar to him, she ended up seizing and dying after 3 days. I did not have TSB or my wildlife center at my disposal at the time, so I could not get her the drugs she needed, nor did I know what they were.

Now, I hope things will be different with this little guy. He's getting dex again tomorrow, it's the only thing I have for swelling/shock , and baytril again, since he was clicking some earlier today. I just don't know what's going on with this little guy.
I guess only time will tell, I just hope he isn't too far gone for saving, and if he is, would euthanasia be better?
I just don't want him to suffer.
I will try to get a video in the morning so yall can see what I'm talking about.

[sid'smommy]

dexamethasone is a steroid like prednisone, it just doesnt act as quickly. He probably has more dried blood in his sinus and nasal passages that is causing difficulty breathing, therefore inabilty to swallow. He is probably dehydrated, do his body isnt producing the secretions to pass this thru-thats why he is sneezing. Run some hot water, and let him breathe in some steam. Make a small rice buddy, but get the sock slightly damp. set in the tote on a heated area.... it will humidify him all night long and maybe loosen up some junk. This is how I treated a pinkie that was gasping with pneumonia. ( I didnt even give antibiotics) Sweet dreams baby squirrelys :)

[skippy]

He's not trying to move at all.
His nose is already cleared, there wasn't much blood at all. You really had to look to tell.

Does Dex work the same as prednisone?
I hope so, that is the only thing I have available. The wild mammal babies book says it's the drug for shock and swelling, it's a steroid anti inflammatory.

I'm going to keep trying with him, he only moves to scratch his face every once in a while. The home made pedi is leaking out on his cheeks and making him itchy. I'm trying to clean it, but I don't want to mess with him too much in case he has broken ribs, collapsed lung, etc.....

I had one last year similar to him, she ended up seizing and dying after 3 days. I did not have TSB or my wildlife center at my disposal at the time, so I could not get her the drugs she needed, nor did I know what they were.

Now, I hope things will be different with this little guy. He's getting dex again tomorrow, it's the only thing I have for swelling/shock , and baytril again, since he was clicking some earlier today. I just don't know what's going on with this little guy.
I guess only time will tell, I just hope he isn't too far gone for saving, and if he is, would euthanasia be better?
I just don't want him to suffer.
I will try to get a video in the morning so yall can see what I'm talking about.

Poor Baby
I've not used prednisone, just Dex for head trauma, shock, spinal trauma and with great success however, I've been taught to wait 36 hours after the initial dose and evaluate. If there is improvement, don't give again. With Dex the goal is to use as much as is required and as little a possible for as short amount of time as possible. It should NOT be mixed with Metacam (wait 24 hours). If multiple doses of Dex are used wait 4-5 days before giving Metacam.

Others here may have other suggestions for you. This is just my experience.

[jbtartell]

I am thinking he is awful young for dex. I would stay with baytrill and use infant ib proffen.. I just dont know if it can be used with dex...:poke ??:poke
he does sound very dehydrated.. and yes keep heating pad on low under half the carrier.. he needs to be warm and hydrated mostly. with out being hydrated it will be hard for him to heal. soo here is the thing warm, hydration, meds, after hydrated food..:thumbsup good luck:thumbsup

[kastillo]

He's still with us, and took a little more hydration willingly this am. Sorry I forgot to mention he is on heating pad with rice buddy. I will try humidity. He was swallowing much better this am, and his breathing did not seem labored, but kinda shallow actually. Wiped his nose with a qtip, it came off clean.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Hoping this little guy pulls through. Oh, and I'm using karo everytime I hydrate to keep blood sugar up. Hydration on both is a little improved this morning, but not as much as I'd like to see.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I am thinking he is awful young for dex. I would stay with baytrill and use infant ib proffen.. I just dont know if it can be used with dex...:poke ??:poke
he does sound very dehydrated.. and yes keep heating pad on low under half the carrier.. he needs to be warm and hydrated mostly. with out being hydrated it will be hard for him to heal. soo here is the thing warm, hydration, meds, after hydrated food..:thumbsup good luck:thumbsupnot disagreeing, however wanted to share that per vet, I have had younger sqs given dex injections and also oral prednisone...

sending good vibes to the littles:Love_Icon

[jbtartell]

He's still with us, and took a little more hydration willingly this am. Sorry I forgot to mention he is on heating pad with rice buddy. I will try humidity. He was swallowing much better this am, and his breathing did not seem labored, but kinda shallow actually. Wiped his nose with a qtip, it came off clean.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Hoping this little guy pulls through. Oh, and I'm using karo everytime I hydrate to keep blood sugar up. Hydration on both is a little improved this morning, but not as much as I'd like to see.


yayyy you are doing a great job.. :thumbsup looks as if hydration and baytril are doing their job. I would think he dont need anymore dex. he should be fine.. subq is fine to keep up hydration and offer food.. he also will need calories.. great thoughts on kayro suryp..:thumbsup

[Loopy Squirrel]

The things I worry about w/ head trauma & internal injuries are concussions, broken jaws, lung trauma, & diaphragmatic hernia. With any head trauma there can be a concussion which they seem out of it, lethargic, etc. It can take a few days to come out of that. They can be in and out at times. I usually sub Q fluids and tube nutrition. As for broken jaws, they really can't move their mouths very well. Depending on where it is broken they may be able to open and close but nursing is extremely difficult. I usually tube them as well. Many of my concussions and broken jaws have a similar look about them w/ their mouth held open and their tongues slightly sticking out. It's usually a dead give away. The jaw will heal eventually but their bite may be off later on. I do agree w/ sid's mommy that there could be blood further back up in the sinuses. I like to use saline drops to help not only reduce swelling but to help dry up any secretions that may remain. As for the lung issues he could have a punctured lung from the fall. Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do for that except a lung tap w/ a butterfly catheter, which can be done by a vet if needed. The diaphragmatic hernia also is a difficult thing to diagnose. It can occur from the fall. I had one a few years back. It was a pinkie and it got worse over time. The vet had talked about surgery as one had been performed once before but it was on a much bigger baby squirrel. I personally like Dex and use it often. If it was given by injection it will work faster than an oral pred.. I also like to use the Dex more often as well because sometimes the inflammation will get worse over time and it will help to keep that down. I have personally never had any bad side effects from Dex.. As long as it is slowly weaned down it shouldn't hurt. I would keep up the sub Q hydration until the baby is a little more stable.

[Milo's Mom]

The things I worry about w/ head trauma & internal injuries are concussions, broken jaws, lung trauma, & diaphragmatic hernia. With any head trauma there can be a concussion which they seem out of it, lethargic, etc. It can take a few days to come out of that. They can be in and out at times. I usually sub Q fluids and tube nutrition. As for broken jaws, they really can't move their mouths very well. Depending on where it is broken they may be able to open and close but nursing is extremely difficult. I usually tube them as well. Many of my concussions and broken jaws have a similar look about them w/ their mouth held open and their tongues slightly sticking out. It's usually a dead give away. The jaw will heal eventually but their bite may be off later on. I do agree w/ sid's mommy that there could be blood further back up in the sinuses. I like to use saline drops to help not only reduce swelling but to help dry up any secretions that may remain. As for the lung issues he could have a punctured lung from the fall. Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do for that except a lung tap w/ a butterfly catheter, which can be done by a vet if needed. The diaphragmatic hernia also is a difficult thing to diagnose. It can occur from the fall. I had one a few years back. It was a pinkie and it got worse over time. The vet had talked about surgery as one had been performed once before but it was on a much bigger baby squirrel. I personally like Dex and use it often. If it was given by injection it will work faster than an oral pred.. I also like to use the Dex more often as well because sometimes the inflammation will get worse over time and it will help to keep that down. I have personally never had any bad side effects from Dex.. As long as it is slowly weaned down it shouldn't hurt. I would keep up the sub Q hydration until the baby is a little more stable.

OMG, I absolutely LOVE when you post Loopy! WOW

[kastillo]

Here's some videos. Sometimes, not always though, when he tries to swallow, he'll take a big breath, like he's trying to catch his breath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAC3gR8ghwA&feature=youtu.be

How he moves, when he does move, which is not much
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym1CoV02MEc&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jbt9K-QkSg&feature=youtu.be

[kastillo]

Doesn't seem to have the broken jaw. No punctures on the body. I'm thinking collapsed lung. I have heard of the procedure your talking about with the butterfly catheter. But I guess a vet would only know how to diagnose it. Please look at the videos Loopy and see what you think.

He's taking very little diluted formula. I'll sub q again before I leave for work, then my husband will care for him.
At 70 grams, what is a proper amount to sub q, I've been doing 1 cc at a time, because it just seems to make him so uncomfortable, I don't like hurting the little guy, and I know he's already in pain.

[kastillo]

Would it be wise to tube when he's having such difficulty breathing? I've never tubed a squirrel, only opossums.

edit: and thanks for the advice on the dex, he got another shot again this morning.

[Loopy Squirrel]

I definitely don't like the way he is breathing. The reason I like to tube feed is because I can make sure they get what they need with out risking aspiration as with oral feeding. If he is having such a hard time breathing he could potentially inhale the hydration formula. The problem is trying to figure out if he is doing open mouth breathing because of a blocked nasal cavity or a lung issue. If your tube is small enough it shouldn't cause a problem w/ his breathing. His esophagus should accommodate the tube with out putting pressure on his trachea. He probably won't like it and will try to gag. I tube squirrels the same way as I do w/ the opossums. Sub Q might be safer for now and leave the tubing for nutrition later. I had a vet do a lung tap on a small baby squirrel before and it worked out well. I have almost considered doing it myself but I am a chicken when it comes to lung stuff. Watch his belly too because if he is having difficulty breathing his belly may fill with air and he'll bloat. You can relieve that by using the tube to suck out the air from the stomach. If it is a hernia there really isn't much you can do for that except time, keep your amount of fluid in the belly to a minimum because the hernia pushes on the stomach and their stomach capacity is much smaller. I do think that if there is bruising to the lung which will cause inflammation or even inflammation in the nasal cavity the dex should help to keep that from getting worse. An x-ray would show if he has a collapsed lung. It will show the air & inflammation. If you think this is in the nose one other thing you could try is to use a baby nasal bulb syringe or a one cc syringe to try and suck out goo from the nose if there is any in there.

[Loopy Squirrel]

O.K. some how I missed the other two videos and I just watched them. Were they taken before the first one? The two videos about the movement worry me less than the first. Those look like head trauma to me and I liked the way he moved his jaw. The very first one makes me nervous with the open mouth breathing.

[kastillo]

The last two videos are after I put him down from hydrating him.

He only does the gasping thing every once in a while.

I will take in all your advice.

He will see a vet monday if he makes it till then.

I will attempt to tube him tonight, I have a 3.5 and 5 french that are virtually the same diameter.

I just gave him 1cc sub q.

It just seems like he's fading.

Edit: he breaths through his nose just fine, with no noise.

I must leave for work, I'm leaving it in my capable husband's hands till tonight.

Yall please pray for this baby.

[kastillo]

:thankyou Loopy and everyone for all your advice. It's nice not to be alone in this.

[jbtartell]

yayy loopy.. thanks.. I said that about the dex because that is what my vet told me about it.. he doesnt recomend it in younger squirrels.. I asked because that is what My Sam got and I wanted to know all about it incase I hd babies with back issues. it helped with Sam. but she was 8 yrs old. but I dont know much beyond that about it.. I am worried about the mouth breathing my self.. I agree with subquing.. and tubing well if you are not sure of it, it can be dangerous.. be very careful u could go in the lung which is instant death or puncture a lung or the stomach.. just use caution. soo sorry ur baby is soo sick.. praying hard for him..

[Loopy Squirrel]

yayy loopy.. thanks.. I said that about the dex because that is what my vet told me about it.. he doesnt recomend it in younger squirrels.. I asked because that is what My Sam got and I wanted to know all about it incase I hd babies with back issues. it helped with Sam. but she was 8 yrs old. but I dont know much beyond that about it.. I am worried about the mouth breathing my self.. I agree with subquing.. and tubing well if you are not sure of it, it can be dangerous.. be very careful u could go in the lung which is instant death or puncture a lung or the stomach.. just use caution. soo sorry ur baby is soo sick.. praying hard for him..
I have to say that dex is one of the most controversial drugs out there. I have talked w/ many different vets including the three I work with about using it for a lot of different things. Each vet has his or her own take on it and a lot do not agree. It also makes a difference if the vet is old school or new school. Unfortunately the only thing I have gathered from all of these vets is use it if you think it works. I think if and how each person decides to use it depends on if you have had success with it or not. In my own experience I have had huge successes with it and I still use it but others may not have had that experience. I guess you use what works for you. I have used it with very young babies too but with the ones I did use it on it was a do or die situation anyway so I figured what do I have to lose at this point. My little Annie who is now two years old is an example of a pinkie that I have used it on.

[jbtartell]

I have to say that dex is one of the most controversial drugs out there. I have talked w/ many different vets including the three I work with about using it for a lot of different things. Each vet has his or her own take on it and a lot do not agree. It also makes a difference if the vet is old school or new school. Unfortunately the only thing I have gathered from all of these vets is use it if you think it works. I think if and how each person decides to use it depends on if you have had success with it or not. In my own experience I have had huge successes with it and I still use it but others may not have had that experience. I guess you use what works for you. I have used it with very young babies too but with the ones I did use it on it was a do or die situation anyway so I figured what do I have to lose at this point. My little Annie who is now two years old is an example of a pinkie that I have used it on.

I can agree there.. like I was saying dont know much bout it.. just during that time with sam. he is a younger vet.. they ad been using it with success on bunnies with back injuries and used it with my sam.. all vets are different you are right there I have had some different advise over the years.. and stick to what works..:thumbsup

[Loopy Squirrel]

I think it's a personal judgement call and not every situation warrants its use either. I just take it one case at a time.:D

[jbtartell]

soo true:thumbsup

[Saverywood]

At 70 grams, what is a proper amount to sub q, I've been doing 1 cc at a time, because it just seems to make him so uncomfortable, I don't like hurting the little guy, and I know he's already in pain.

Wild Baby Mammal book says:
Day 1: Give 3.3% of initial body wt 3x during the first 24 hrs. (dose is 2.3ml given three times 1st day - based on 70g wt)
Day 2 &3: Give 2.5%; 3x a day for next 2-3 days. (dose is 1.75 ml given three times - based on 70g wt)
Sometimes I give 5% depending on the level of dehydration. Any pain meds given?

I am biting on my nails...just reading through your post...poor little darling. Prayers sent upward. Fingers crossed too.

Good rescue :thumbsup - poor, poor darling. :Love_Icon

[kastillo]

no pain meds, i do not know what's safe to use with dex

[Saverywood]

no pain meds, i do not know what's safe to use with dex
Tramadol is not an NSAID, it is not contraindicated w/dex. My vet says it is hard to overdose and is a long acting analgesic. Side effects are rare, sometimes upset stomach can occur. Do not use Ultracet, which is a human product because it contains acetaminophen in additon to the Tramadol and is not safe.

How is the little guy this morning?

[kastillo]

Well, both babies ate good this morning.
4 cc for the active one.
3.5 cc for the hurt one.
The hurt one is starting to open his eyes.
He's getting more active, but he still showing signs of being off. He got his dex this morning.

I did try to tube him yesterday, but it was too stressful for both of us. He doesn't seem to need it now anyway. Thank God for the improvement and thank you all for the advice.

I will keep you posted. I'm still planning on a vet visit unless he shows vast improvement by tomorrow.

[Loopy Squirrel]

Glad to hear the little guy is doing better. I know what you mean about tubing being stressful for both of you. Squirrels absolutely hate it and it's a struggle sometimes.

[MJS]

:wave123 :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[TubeDriver]

Hope he keeps improving. Great job!

[kastillo]

The two little boys are gaining a few grams.
The head trauma (I believe that's what it is) one has not seen the vet yet.
I feed he has improved, but not completely healed. If he makes it to adulthood and is still having issues, he will be an NR.

He has balance, coordination, and equilibrium issues. I will get a video up here soon to show yall what I mean.

His brother, however, is doing great. No issues at all. Developing normally.

The little neuro one I have dubbed "Wonky"
The little healthy one I have not yet named.

[jbtartell]

:thumbsup great work:thumbsup

[kastillo]

Here's the video of how little Wonky gets around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK-nLgYTyV8&feature=youtu.be

[SammysMom]

OMG he is so cute and sweet too!!! Sure looks neuro, but you never know how far they can come. Look at Krista!!!:Love_Icon

[Loopy Squirrel]

He is really cute and that head drift reminds me so much of Theo. He looks wonderful.

[farrelli]

Oh, poor baby! He looks like me when I'm having a bad vertigo attack. If it is a neuro thing like mine, his brain has a good shot of rewiring over time so that it can compensate for whatever bad signals are being sent.

[kastillo]

I just can't believe how far he's come already.
I was just looking back at his first video when he was unresponsive and I was considering euthanasia.

I will give him the best care I know how, and we'll see how it all turns out.

Oh, yes, his name is Wonky, and his brother is Grumbles. I did steal that name from another TSB member, I liked it so..... and he's always growling and complaining when I feed Wonky before him.

I guess I'm stuck with them, even tho I wasn't supposed to take any more babies.
Hubby's already attached, so we're golden.:D

[Jackie in Tampa]

good to hear he improves...yes!
I love the name Grumbles...
we need pics:poke

:) glad you gave wonky opportunity to heal and adjust, some things take time and can be sooo very rewarding,
you may even meet the love of your life!
... you can only euthanize once.

[kastillo]

I know, but I had a bad experience last year with a little girl that was acting the same way wonky was, and I tried to get help from the vet when she started seizing, they wouldn't give me the drugs I was asking for and they were too busy to see her, so she died a horrible death and I wish I would have just had her euthanized while I was there.


That's before I found TSB.... I just didn't want to see little wonky suffer, I've never had anything euthanized, and we only chose it if it was the only choice.

Wonky may be my first NR.

[kastillo]

Here's a video of Wonky eating this morning, he's still a little shaky, but much better than before.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LAZa5oEcio&feature=youtu.be