Intro and Heat question?

[Profitina]

Hi! My name is Emily and I currently have one squirrel- Olivia, "Livvy". I just finished successfully rehabbing a young male squirrel and released him a few weeks ago (Ollie).
I have a rehabbing blog here: http://emilylovessquirrels.tumblr.com/
Livvy has had all sorts of problems- her tail had to be amputated, she got hit in the head with a branch and had a concussion, fell and bruised a rib- and is very people oriented. My vet has deemed her nonreleasable and she seems content to remain a pet so I have her all set up in a large ferret nation with hammocks and all sorts of things. She is 9 months old and just entering her first heat cycle. She's barely eaten if at all in 4 days, cranky but wants to be held, sleeps all day and night, and urinates frequently with a weird smell so I was worried and took her to the vet thinking it was something serious and that's what he said it was.
Does anyone know how long a heat cycle lasts and how often a fox squirrel goes into them? I'm guessing the initial few weeks of build up was her first hormone surge of puberty and reacting to it. I'm trying to think about things I do in relation to her behavior and realize that she's just having normal PMS in her own squirrelly way.

[stepnstone]

Something about this is throwing up a flag, could be more going on here... :thinking
I'm thinking if you posted your questions in non-life threatening you'll get
replies from other fox squee owners that may be able to give you a better insight.

[farrelli]

Could you please tell us exactly what she eats every day?

[Profitina]

She eats cereal mix (cheerios, crispix, various multigrain cereals)/exotic nutrition squirrel diet (she mostly picks at it),grapes, mixed fruit from a fruit cup, berries, carrots, spinach, apples- whatever fruits/veggies I can get her to accept as she's picky. And walnuts, pistachios, hazlenuts, etc but limited to two a day. She also gets leaves and sticks from outside to munch on and will nibble on rodent blocks if I hide them in something, but generally ignores them. Pretty much anything good for her I have to hide...

[Profitina]

I made a post under the urgent questions and we are about to leave for the vet as she's only gotten worse and seemed like she couldn't see last night. She's generally been pitiful for a week now :-/
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/squirrels/IMAG8137_zpsb7fc7b25.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/squirrels/IMAG8137_zpsb7fc7b25.jpg.html)

[farrelli]

That diet is HORRIBLE and she probably has MBD. You must start her on the MBD protocol NOW, this minute to save her life:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34495

[Profitina]

She takes glidercal too but I know I need to change her diet. We can talk more when I get back from the vet.

[farrelli]

The MBD can cause severe bone pain. You should giver her calcium before you go, like NOW!!!!!

[farrelli]

I don't know how much calcium that gives, how often you give it or what, but I have to go for several hours and there's no downside of giving some cal.

[Profitina]

If she was eating like she normally does, she would have a slice of orange and glidercal on her pecans and grapes to give her calcium. I forced her to have electrolytes and glidercal yesterday but you're right, not eating this week has probably contributed to her pain.

[farrelli]

All those nuts rip the calcium from her bones. Give her calcium!

[Sara89nicole]

Farrelli posted the link for the MBD protocol, look at it and follow it. No more nuts for now, she needs a quality rodent block like Henry's healthy blocks as the main staple in her diet, along with green veggies. Fruits and nuts are to be fed in smaller amounts primarily as a treat. MBD causes pain and brittle bones, heat can help alleviate the pain. A fall can cause serious injury due to brittle bones. There is so much wonderful information and people on here who only want to help, read read read and read some more. I'll let experts give more advice as I'm still learning myself and it takes forever for me to post from my iPod.

[Profitina]

I know she was fed human infant formula and not given calcium by the lady that raised her until I had her so she had MBD when I got her. I'm a little defensive about it because I've done lots of research and pulled her out of it twice :). She's very picky and it's hard to get her to eat the things she should when my instructions when she was given to me at 3 months from original owner were literally "she likes cheerios, will eat pizza, whatever you're eating". She'll eat the corner of a Mazuri Rodent Block if I roll it up in paper towel like a present for her to forage with a little piece of pecan. Can sometimes get her to eat new veggies like squash if stick a little piece of pecan in them for her to nibble her way to or make a veggie ball where she has to rip out all the leafy veggies (and hopefully actually eat some) before getting to the nut inside. That hasn't worked at all this week because she hasn't even gotten out of bed because she's sick :dono

I had a local family owned pet store order squirrel food from Exotic Nutrition- the one thats mostly pellets, not the one thats got lots of crap in it- to try out. When she had her good appetite, she'd pick out a few things in it, eat a few pellets and be done. Wasn't too fond of it, but it was expensive so hopefully she'll learn to like it or something because I have nothing else to do with it. This food: http://www.exoticnutrition.com/sqdiwifrandn.html

This is the calcium supplement I give her. It was highly recommended on more than one rehab blog I went to when first started researching what to feed her. http://www.exoticnutrition.com/rgc20.html

And I had been giving her Squirrel Booster but I'm pretty sure it made her fat so I stopped. I originally bought it for the malnourished baby boy squirrel I bottle fed and recently released. http://www.exoticnutrition.com/en8542.html

I was just going to start researching something different to feed here because I knew the core of what I feed her is off when she got sick.

[Sq-and-Chippy-Lover]

All I can offer: Please listen to the folks here at TSB. They MIGHT be able to save your squirrel. They know more about squirrels than most vets.

Good luck, precious squirrelly.

[MollyBear361]

Please fix her diet immediately. I know your defensive but sometimes pet stores are not the best place to get info. Everyone here wants to help you and get your baby better. We can all see how much you care for her. I don't think there is such a thing as pulling a squirrel out of mbd. It is a serious condition and if she has it she is in a great deal of pain. Can't hurt to try right? I'm no expert. I came here looking for help with my guys and I've seen over a long time that what the experts here think and what they advise are very very good protocol. These people know what they are doing and what they do works. Please at least try the mbd protocol. It can't hurt. It may not be her only issue but it may be causing the other issues. For example the branch and the fall. If she has mbd that fall would impact her way worse. Did the weird behavior start shortly after that? Just trying to put some things together? Noone is going to blame you about anything you have done thus far but I have to agree the diet needs to be fixed asap. Throw out the cereal and nuts and junk. Put her on Henrys blocks or figure a way for her to eat quality blocks. Some people here have recipes with oil and peanut butter that work for their squirrels. Squirrels won't let themselves starve. Sometimes it takes some tough mommy love. You came to the right place. Everyone here lives squirrels. Hive her some kisses from me. :grouphug

[Profitina]

I've given her antibiotic, 1/2ml of motrin, 5cc of pedialyte with 1/4 teaspoon of her calcium supplement already today. I could mix up more pedialyte or juice with a calcium pill but I don't want to make her sicker than she already is by overdoing it :-/. I could let what I gave her get in her system then start the treatment in the morning?

[farrelli]

Pedialyte should only be given for 24 hours because of the salt, after that, remove it. The Cl AB you're using can cause lethargy and lack of appetite in squirrels, so watch it. You may have to change to Baytril and hopefully your vet with prescribe it. MBD treatment is all about the calcium, assuming that she has a source of vitamin D and magnesium. Does she? They usually get that from blocks, but her diet is terrible.

[Profitina]

Her calcium supplement has magnesium in it and I was going to start putting her out in the release cage on pretty days so she could get Vitamin D and then she got sick. Can they just get Vit D tablets? And you've said that her diet is bad like 3 times now. I plan on changing it and have been researching. I haven't given her anything since I've had her without having at least 2 sources of info for what I've done. Neither of the rehabbers I'm working with have ever kept a squirrel past 3 months so I've had to learn for myself from articles online that have had varying levels of helpfulness. I'm going to start the MBD stuff tomorrow morning and we'll take it from there.

[farrelli]

I've said that it's a bad diet, because I haven't seen one that bad in awhile now. No human D supplements. Vitamin D is actually used as a pesticide for rodents. Small amounts are key. Cal can;t be used without it though. My research shows that large amounts are necessary for toxicity, even by human supplement standards, but you don't want to play with it.

Many sites are replete with bad information, but this is the best Ive found so far, though it's not perfect. Your squirrel seems to be in bad shape. When you get to white tears, things have gone wickedly off the rails. You need to attend to her needs immediately and with vigor.

[Profitina]

For example the branch and the fall. If she has mbd that fall would impact her way worse. Did the weird behavior start shortly after that? Just trying to put some things together? Noone is going to blame you about anything you have done thus far but I have to agree the diet needs to be fixed asap. Throw out the cereal and nuts and junk. Put her on Henrys blocks or figure a way for her to eat quality blocks. Some people here have recipes with oil and peanut butter that work for their squirrels. Squirrels won't let themselves starve. Sometimes it takes some tough mommy love. You came to the right place. Everyone here lives squirrels. Hive her some kisses from me. :grouphug

Some symptoms started when she hit her head, like this sniff thing she does and the runny nose which are lesser symptoms from the original bloody noses. Sometimes her hip/side hurts if she plays too hard in her cage but she fell and bruised or broke a rib a few months ago so I attribute it to that. I usually massage her hip or put her on the heating pad if it is bad, then make sure to give her extra calcium supplement for her bones. She has bad balance from her tail getting amputated in early December. It's not completely gone, just halfway. She can't swing it and it generally kind of flops to the side like a rat instead of it going up over her head. It bushes out like a pine cone though :). Sometimes she forgets it's there and kind of spooks or chases it so I'm not entirely sure she can completely feel it.

I'm hoping I can make one of the recipes using the blocks or pellets I've already got so I don't waste them since they were expensive then get Henrys blocks or something like that when she finishes those :).

[Profitina]

She's much more alert today than she had been. She pulled her veggie ball into her hammock when we got back from the vet. Didn't really eat much out of it, but I appreciated the attempt.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/1def832c-d72a-40b2-a615-342d25d1dbef_zpsfdcd49c0.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/1def832c-d72a-40b2-a615-342d25d1dbef_zpsfdcd49c0.jpg.html)


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/1d0bff21-13c0-4fb1-8f5b-0a2c36c1139c_zps5ce3f415.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/1d0bff21-13c0-4fb1-8f5b-0a2c36c1139c_zps5ce3f415.jpg.html)

Her eyes are a little brighter and she was sucking on the syringe herself. I was kind of amused at that since she hasn't had milk in 6 months. She always makes sure to rest her jaw or a tooth on my hand when I'm restraining her to let me know that she could bite me if she wanted to. She never does. She's put my finger in her mouth to warn me though.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Hi Emily,
I'm glad Livvy is more alert today. The antibiotic is probably beginning to work. :thumbsup From what you describe she probably does have a UTI. Unfortunately, that is only ONE of her problems. Every symptom that you have described SCREAMS MBD. Her pain, lack of balance, falling, possible broken bone, white tears from pain all indicate MBD. As you have stated, yes her diet does need work BUT right now that is secondary to addressing her immediate health issues. I would start the MBD treatment today without fail. Don't feel bad, we see this same situation almost daily because people find bad information on the Internet. Livvy needs the calcium to be administered consistently so that her blood Ca stays level. MBD does not start over night and it won't go away over night. You should see improvement soon in her overall well being but the treatment for MBD takes time ... A lot of time. I have seen cases here where rear end paralysis and seizures were reversed in a very short period of time. It's almost miraculous how fast the worst symptoms (paralysis & seizures) are reversed. MBD treatment takes months ... even years. There are squirrels here that are over 10 years old that are MBD survivors. I think that speaks volumes for the fact that the treatment works.

Everyone here has the same goal. We want to see your baby healthy just like you do. One thing that I would highly recommend that you buy (along with the HenrysHealthyBlock) is FoxValley Formula 20/50. Yes, I know it is baby squirrel formula but many adults here lap it out of a bowl. Most squirrels including adults love it. It is a way to get calcium into Livvy in an ongoing way.

When you give her calcium today, I wouldn't give it at the same time as the antibiotic. Calcium blocks some antibiotics from absorption. I'm not sure about Clavamox (I'd need to look it up) but just to be safe, I'd separate them. The Clavamox might upset her stomach so you might want to offer her some yogurt.

One last thing, I looked up the Calcium/Mg supplement that you are using. It looks like a good product but I do have a concern about using it for the MBD treatment. Keep in mind that with the treatment you are mega dosing Calcium, which is needed due to her hypocalcemia. With your supplement you are also mega dosing Magnesium and I just don't know if that is safe. While it is probably good as a supplement I'm not sure it is appropriate for this application (treatment).
If it was me I would use the Tums.


OK, I gotta go. Good luck with Livvy. By the way, she is a beautiful foxer lady. We don't have fox squirrels like her where I live. She is beautiful! :thumbsup

[HRT4SQRLS]

I didn't see the MBD link posted in your thread so here it.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32122

[Profitina]

One thing that I would highly recommend that you buy (along with the HenrysHealthyBlock) is FoxValley Formula 20/50. Yes, I know it is baby squirrel formula but many adults here lap it out of a bowl. Most squirrels including adults love it. It is a way to get calcium into Livvy in an ongoing way.

When you give her calcium today, I wouldn't give it at the same time as the antibiotic. Calcium blocks some antibiotics from absorption. I'm not sure about Clavamox (I'd need to look it up) but just to be safe, I'd separate them. The Clavamox might upset her stomach so you might want to offer her some yogurt.

One last thing, I looked up the Calcium/Mg supplement that you are using. It looks like a good product but I do have a concern about using it for the MBD treatment. Keep in mind that with the treatment you are mega dosing Calcium, which is needed due to her hypocalcemia. With your supplement you are also mega dosing Magnesium and I just don't know if that is safe. While it is probably good as a supplement I'm not sure it is appropriate for this application (treatment).
If it was me I would use the Tums.


OK, I gotta go. Good luck with Livvy. By the way, she is a beautiful foxer lady. We don't have fox squirrels like her where I live. She is beautiful! :thumbsup

I know everyone just wants to help and I needed it so that's why I asked a question instead of just stalking the boards. :grouphug
You might find this hard to believe, but I don't like being wrong... Especially if I've done tons of research and are being treated like one of those people that just get a pet on a whim or don't take care of it because she is ridiculously spoiled. :D It's very frustrating hearing different things from my vet, both rehabbers I work with, every site I go on, and here then having to kind of sort it all.
The MBD makes sense and I had figured she had it to a light degree when I got her since she was given cows milk and no calcium, then she stopped showing symptoms when I got her on a calcium supplement, and various events kind of drew it out again if that makes sense? She was squeaking any time I touched her back end, and I was sure my vet was going to agree with me that she had some sort of problem, then the little turkey magically got better in his office. "She's walking fine.." "She hasn't walked that way in weeks!" Such a brat. :shakehead The moment he walked out of the room she was back to

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/c56505c3-6a38-454b-b8cc-5be5e57dcfc5_zpsbd544dc6.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/c56505c3-6a38-454b-b8cc-5be5e57dcfc5_zpsbd544dc6.jpg.html)

I used to try to give her some of the Esbililac Puppy I gave to my baby boy, Ollie, before he was released but she always turned her nose up at it. When I get another baby, I was going to get the Fox Vally and let her try that too...but that's a whole different topic. :)

Should I not give her the full 500mg treatment of Calcium since she's on an antibiotic and just start with 250mg midday? I wasn't going to use her supplement since it would take a lot and has traces of other minerals in it. I'm going to go get a chewable orange calcium one and grind it up or tums. The only calcium we already had in the house came with D3 in it and the other one was from Oyster Shell and I didn't want to risk her being allergic to shellfish. I should probably be careful what flavor stuff I get her- she wouldn't eat bananas for months after having banana flavored antibiotic. Yesterday, she went from "What flavor pedialyte did you get me?" to "SQUEEIHATETHISANTIBIOTICANDIHATEYOUEEEAK" the moment it hit her tongue. :shakehead And what type of yogurt do I give her? I have the kind with no added stuff like activia but little bits of fruit in it? It looks like I will be making a trip to the store in a bit though.

Livvy says thank you for thinking she's pretty, it's so hard to find the appreciation she deserves. If she were feeling better, this is where she would grunt and ask for a snack. She did grunt at me this morning and eat a whole grape though! :Love_Icon

[Profitina]

My purchases at Walgreens last night- when I got home I realized it looked like I was going to exfoliate and shave a sick child instead of take care of a sick squirrel then take a shower :rotfl

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/7241b858-6fbc-434d-be75-c082c8b54614_zpsdf5f06f0.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/7241b858-6fbc-434d-be75-c082c8b54614_zpsdf5f06f0.jpg.html)

[Profitina]

Pedialyte should only be given for 24 hours because of the salt, after that, remove it. The Cl AB you're using can cause lethargy and lack of appetite in squirrels. MBD treatment is all about the calcium, assuming that she has a source of vitamin D and magnesium. Does she? They usually get that from blocks

Even if I water it down? The last two days, if she's come out of her cage, she's immediately jumped onto the fish tank and licked the side where the mineral deposits are (despite having a cuttle bone to gnaw on) so I thought she had some sort of deficiency she was trying to make up.... And I just remembered that white crusty stuff is mostly calcium/bit of magnesium/smidge of salt and feel really dumb. But lightbulb! :multi

I could grind up her rodent block or squirrel food into the calcium/juice mix I feed her so she gets some protein and other nutrients? I thought about doing that last night when I gave her her pedialite.

[MollyBear361]

Profitina,

When I took our 14 yo lab into the vet...he had a bad front ankle....hadnt walked right for days and it didnt pop back into place like it usually did...as SOON as he stepped into the vet....hey guys look at me! nothing wrong here! lets go home mom! :shakehead I know what you are saying. I will mail you some of the fox valley to try with the HHB. I only have one flyer here so I have some to spare right now. I put the fox valley in my flyers yobaby yogurt every night and he loves it. Not sure about how much yogurt to give a foxer but that may work if she wont drink it on her own. I gave my foxers fox valley warmed up formula in a bowl up until they were released and they still drank it.
I know what you mean about so many different instructions and ideas everywhere. It can be very confusing. I don't think anyone has asked how many squirrels your vet has actually treated? You are very darn lucky to have a vet but just wondering if he has dealt with squirrels. They are like no other rodent around (in a good way of course) :D . I am glad I found this sight bc everyone here will help you in a matter of minutes on the board or PM or personal calls or whatever you need. And most here agree on the proper diet and nutrition and care and there isn't a lot of differing info so you came to the right place.
P.S. I hate being wrong too :poke But if it takes being wrong or just maybe needing a little extra help to save your girl, then its ok!! :grouphug

[MollyBear361]

I think you may have better luck grinding up the blocks into fox valley if she will take fox valley. Not sure how well it would go with the juice mixture. Sounds gross to me :D but I aint no squirrel ! :sanp3

[HRT4SQRLS]

Hi Emily
You asked about giving the calcium (250) once a day while she is on her antibiotic. I really think you should space it out to keep her blood calcium level up as opposed to once a day that will cause her level to spike and dip. I would try to get the 500mg into her. I would dose it thoughout the day a couple hours before or after her AB.

The pain you described in her rear end is another strong indicator of MBD. They seem to go down in the rear end first. I'm not surprised that she seemed normal at the vet's office. I'm sure she was afraid and she instinctively knows to hide her disabilities. As little prey animals, in nature, weakness makes you vulnerable.

I would try the yogurt you have. I buy Stoneyfield YoBaby full fat vanilla. I know it is hit or miss with flavors. If they don't like the flavor they won't touch it. If the antibiotic upsets her tummy, the yogurt will help.

As far as the pedialyte is concerned, yes, it should only be given for 24 hours. If you feel she is dehydrated beyond 24 hours you can make homemade hydration fluid with just the sugar and water ... No salt. After 24hrs, the salt is counterproductive. If she doesn't have diarrhea, she probable doesn't need the salt anyway.

Hey, I understand completely your frustration over the conflicting information you have received. I totally 'get it'. You're trying to help Livvy and you're getting information and misinformation from all over the place. It is very frustrating. I am not one of the EXPERTS here but I have been here long enough to know that the help that you receive here is 'tried and tested'. It WORKS. :peace Good luck with Livvy. :)

[Profitina]

I know my vet has treated dozens of squirrels and other wildlife because the rehabber I'm working with is one of his assistants and someone had a possum and raccoon in there one day. He seems to have a more basic, pragmatic approach to medicine. We butt heads sometimes because I'll try to ask about something I read online or why he said what he did, out of curiousity and because I'm learning not disrespect, and it usually gets awkward. I know the ferret rescue, various other small critter rescues and people with wildlife go to him because he's affordable and will look at them honestly. He's kind of the person you'd go to if you wanted the basics without tons of pointless tests being run but if you wanted something revolutionary or outside that, you're on your own.

I ground up 1 1/2 rodent blocks into yogurt with the normal dose of her regular calcium supplement 4hrs after her antibiotic. I put 1/2cc of children's motrin in it because she kept giving dramatic sighs and staring at me and about 5cc of the yogurt mix. An hour after that or so (since I had changed lower cage and put in heating pad) she bounced and rolled around with toys a few times, would flop a bit, then repeat. So she definitely feels better.

I have Espilac Puppy in the freezer I bought a month and a half ago that's good until late August I could give her if she needs formula as part of the calcium thing for MBD until get Fox Vally? She bit me and drew blood for the first time ever today giving her yogurt. She didn't feel well and didn't want to be messed with but obviously it made her feel better. I'm pulling up the recipe for making squirrel food, seeing if have ingredients then off to the store for the squirrel... again. :rotfl

[MollyBear361]

Has she eaten anything? You will get my HHBs and A sample of fox valley on Monday.

[MollyBear361]

The ears back also mean pain. I hope she's starting to feel bbetter. :grouphug

[Profitina]

Has she eaten anything? You will get my HHBs and A sample of fox valley on Monday.
Yay! Thank you so much! :grouphug

She IS feeling better. Her fav song came on the 90s station- She's a big Will Smith fan- and she bounced around the cage with her toys for half of it before having to lay down.

I got a little vid of her. She's feeling better but still not feeling too hot.
http://youtu.be/TW7ca8YvYjc

Oh! She ate the yogurt mix I made her with rodent block in it? And she ate two grapes this morning and a little piece of mandarin orange.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Wow Emily, I am thrilled to read this good report.The video of Livvy was precious. She looks 100% better already. Of course, she is not out of the woods yet, but the drastic improvement is quite obvious. Keep up the good work AND the MBD treatment and you will be amazed at how some of her chronic problems with pain and balance will disappear. Oh, by the way, her half a tail really should not effect her balance. There are many squirrels on the board that that been released with NO tail and they do fine. Usually their name is Stumpie or Shortie. :D They have no problem soaring through the trees. :thumbsup

It is fantastic that she liked the yogurt.

One last thing I wanted to mention ... about the ibuprofen. I am not familiar with the dosing. It is not in the Wild Mammal Babies book. A rehabber posted for a 1000 gram the dose is 0.25 cc. In your other thread you posted that she weighs 1 lb 5 oz. That is 595g. If that is correct I think she would receive approximately half of that dose. Maybe one of the rehabbers could check this to confirm. Sorry, I am not qualified to dose but her dose seemed high to me.

Super happy for you and Livvy. Rooting for you Livvy.:wott

[Profitina]

This is the type of rodent block I have: http://www.petco.com/product/106131/LM-Animal-Farms-Mouse-And-Rat-Food.aspx?CoreCat=RatHPFood

I'm getting the stuff for Boo Balls in the morning and making those :)

[Profitina]

The baby formula is more concentrated than the kids formula, which makes no sense, but I doubled checked while I was at the store. I've been giving her half what I read somewhere on the site because I remember calculating it before I gave it. I was really tired and might have done it wrong :thinking I will definitely start giving her only .25

[Milo's Mom]

The baby formula is more concentrated than the kids formula, which makes no sense, but I doubled checked while I was at the store. I've been giving her half what I read somewhere on the site because I remember calculating it before I gave it. I was really tired and might have done it wrong :thinking I will definitely start giving her only .25
It makes perfect sense that the Infant formula is more concentrated...babies are harder to get meds into so the less you have to get into them the better. Higher concentration = less to administer

EDIT: The dose for a 595 gram squirrel of INFANT Motrin (50mg/1.25ml) is 0.15. I rounded up to 600 grams.
600 grams is 0.15
590 grams is 0.14

[Profitina]

I'm freaking out. I gave her the wrong calcium supplement, the one with D3 in it. It was less than an hour ago and only 1/3 or so of the pill but I know vitamin D can be toxic and she was jut getting better.

It has 125mg of D3 in each pill so she would've had 43mg or so? Which is nothing for a person but I'm not sure if that's huge for a squirrel.

This says to give her mineral oil and activated carbon, which oddly enough I have... but I wanted ot double check if someone was on. If not, angry squirrel it is.

http://www.squirrelrehabilitation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=67

[farrelli]

I'm on and I actually know something about D3 toxicity, but I'll have to look it up. You're probably fine.

So the pill you gave says that it has 125mg, not IU? I just want to be clear.

[Profitina]

It says IU I just rechecked. I used a cheesegrater to grind up the pill so theres dust bits everywhere that might not have gone into it and she didn't get all of the mix so Im thinking worst case scenario. I noticed she seemed shakey after I gave it to her, but she's barely eaten in a week and was upset from getting a syringe of medicine. She did finally want food tonight and ate a pecan and some of her pellets.

[farrelli]

Can you tell me the brand of pill and exactly what it says for the dose?

[farrelli]

So, to confirm, it's 125 IU. Correct? If so, you'll be fine. I'll tell you why in a minute.

[Profitina]

Finest Natural 500mg Elemental Calcium with 125 IU Vitamin D serving size 1 capsule. I had bought the one without Vitamin D earlier but the bottles look identical. That one is going to get hidden so this doesn't happen again...

[farrelli]

From everything that I've ever found, you apparently need 1 mg per pound of body weight of cholecalciferol (D3) to start to see symptoms, with deaths occurring in rodents with 4 mg per pound of body weight. You just gave her about .001075 mg, so WELL under what would be even approaching toxic levels. But this is assuming that you did give her about 43 IU not mg. 43 mg would be a TON of D3.

[farrelli]

So, to sum up, you're in the clear. From everything I've ever found, you could give a normal sized squirrel and entire D3 tablet and be fine. In fact, I know of many people who give their squirrels ground up calcium supplements which have D3 in it, just like the one you've given, and have no problems.

[Profitina]

YAY! :multi

Was panicking thinking I'd accidentally done something to kill my girl and was a snot sobbing mess. She's making you a thank you card :bowdown

[farrelli]

Btw, I think the info that you found has a typo:


According to Small Animal Toxicology, Blackwell, 2011, ingestion of 0.5 mg/kg of body weight of D3 can cause hypercalcemia, and an ingestion of 0.1mg or more of D3 per kg of body weight can result in vitamin D toxicosis, with renal failure occurring within 12-36 hours

You hit hypercalcemia long before you hit toxic levels, and according to that, you need five times less to hit toxicity than to hit hypercalcemia. That can't be right.

[Profitina]

I just googled to see what it said to be sure and started seeing rat poisons using vitamin D and was like !!! That was oddly enough, the most logical post I found :)

She's loving the heating pad, and my vintage '92 or so Princess Jasmine beach towel.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/profitina/IMAG8797VV-picsay_zps86430df8.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/profitina/media/IMAG8797VV-picsay_zps86430df8.jpg.html)

[farrelli]

Yes, that's actually where I get my information. There is a lack of information about nutritional needs for squirrels, but the best I've been able to find is the studies that pesticide companies use to figure out how much D3 they had to give to cause death. The numbers that I gave you earlier are consistent across the work that I've found from two or three such companies. Bottom line, you need to give a squirrel quite a bit of D3 to kill, and you're not even at the point of even partial toxicity.

And now I have to make pancakes.

[Profitina]

OOOOOOH PANCAKES! I WANT PANCAKES! :jump

[Profitina]

BTW, I tried to find recipes for squirrel food earlier today... and found a recipe for squirrel tacos. Yup. Haven't been that traumatized since the Thanksgiving I wanted to know if it was safe to give my guinea pig a sweet potato so I googled "guinea pig" and "Sweet potato". Golly are there a lot of Guinea Pig Sweet Potato recipes...
:dono

[Profitina]

Made Livvy squirrel bisquits combining a few recipes saw on here. Here's how they turned out: http://emilylovessquirrels.tumblr.com/post/48757043594