MBD or Not-MBD?

[spencerwolf]

So I posted here earlier in the week about my flyer possibly having MBD, after that night all symptoms stopped- his diet has veggies now (including mushrooms) I took out most of the nuts, seeds, and treats and he has been doing better than ever.

Then mysteriously tonight when I have him out I bump his head (not hard) with my arm while he was on me, then shortly after all his symptoms came back. The nasty attitude, the shaking of the back legs, and that's all he's had.

I did the whole feed him a syringe of TUMs/Water- he didn't like it as much this time, though after awhile it all stopped. I was worried about stressing him since feeding him the mixture last time was easy but this time he didn't want too much to do with it until I had the syringe on his mouth- then he drank it.

He loves mushrooms (loves them...) which I know the gills have Vitamin D and he's had mostly veggies all week. He also has a hoof in his cage and a new stick which he's been chewing on more and more. I get my check tomorrow and planned on ordering the Henry's brand blocks this weekend.

So is he still just in recovery mode since I caught this on the first signs of symptoms? Do I need more? Or is this not even MBD?

Again:
-Shaking/Kicking back legs
-Nasty Attitude
-Only when he gets excited
-Happened one night, stopped for almost a week.
-Only at night

[spencerwolf]

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=839874&posted=1#post839874

Here's the original topic, though wasn't sure if on TSB if I should have made a new one due to the other one being about a week old, that and this possibly being another issue.

[spencerwolf]

He also pooped while in this "mode" a little more than usual. Usually he just drops a pellet or a few- tonight he did a little more. Could he be having issues with pooping?

If it's still MBD should I just keep giving him TUMs with the syringe every day? Is there a ratio I should be working with too?
I'm afraid to give him any other calcium since my run in with the whole "dangerous D3" with Vitamin D3 issue- it's in most pet store calcium supplements I find.

[kim3962]

Hang on ok

[spencerwolf]

Ok, may I add- he's still very active and strong. He loves being upside down, and even just now he's jumping around like the little paratrooper he is. Urine is virtually clear, sleeps averagely, eating great, drinking fine, and this event only lasted maybe 5-10 minutes.

[kim3962]

I am trying to find someone to help you

[spencerwolf]

Thanks, means a lot.

[kim3962]

Did someone in here tell you about the tums

[kim3962]

I give mine 500 calcium a day

[kim3962]

How much calcium has he had today

[spencerwolf]

I've read about the TUMs trick in emergency MBD treatment on here. To stop the tremors/leg shakes.

I just gave him probably 100-200 mg of calcium tonight.

What do you use for calcium?
Should I keep this up for a week or more?
Or just do it every day?

[kastillo]

I don't know sweetie. It seems to me if it was MBD, symptoms wouldn't come and go. But I'm not sure, just keep doing the veggies, order the henry's, make sure he gets his mushrooms (he loves em so that's awesome), and calcium supplement can't hurt until you totally have his diet on the right track.
Also, are you able to give him live bugs, meal worms, wax worms, etc.
Do you have acorns where you are at. I crack open acorns and feed mine the grubs in there, in between shipments of the mealworms.
So, does he have any protein available to him?

[kim3962]

Mine has MBD and was told to give 500mg a day spread out through the day.

[kim3962]

I was told it will take a very long time to recover from it.

[spencerwolf]

Yesterday alone he ate two large mushrooms (I dice them up)
Today he went through about 1 1/2 but I also have a whole mushroom in there which he loves to try to carry around and gnaw on.

I don't have live bugs, but I do have mealworms that I give him. He eats them but isn't as fond of them as... well mushrooms and nuts. Though I was going to crush some up and sprinkle them on his food to help motivate the bug eating.

He has walnuts, yes. He loves any nuts I give him. I try to find wild nuts as much as I can, though where I am there's too much snow to do that recently. He has a tiny stash of various nuts around the cage too. I give him both shelled and unshelled.

Again, that's the only thing that gets me is I thought if it was MBD his symptoms would come and go, that they would be more chronic or constant- versus out of the blue.

[spencerwolf]

I heard it could take 1-4 weeks to recover once a squirrel has MBD.
Though I wasn't too sure since I caught this on his first symptom so early, and it just suddenly stopped and things have been better than ever- that if he actually had MBD or just almost had MBD.

[kim3962]

Mine did it one week and did not have another seizure for a month then the bad one happen. So mine was not all at once either

[kastillo]

Also, he only should have nuts as a treat. For a small flyer, that would be maybe a half of a nut a day, or maybe even only a quarter if it's a bigger nut.
Nuts have a high phosphorus content. And no matter how much calcium he is getting, too much phosphorus in the diet can actually block the calcium absorption. So please limit the nuts to treats only.
His main diet should be from most fed to least fed in this order: HHBS (henry's flyer block), then veggies along with mushrooms and live worms (protein), then a fruit or nut for a treat only.

[spencerwolf]

I did take most nuts out of the cage, he only had a few that he's had for awhile in the shell in his cage. They're tiny and stashed away in there as well.

I didn't realize the phosphorus content of nuts was an issue. I actually added walnuts back into his food today (a whole walnut/two halves) with the mushrooms and mealworms- which he did eat.

I stick to the calcium too.
Though where should I get the calcium from?
TUMS, or is there some more reliable pet-brand supplement I can give him?

[kim3962]

I ordered MBD kit from Henry's it will have powdered calcium in it. Until it came I used tums

[kim3962]

No nut clean cage out. Keep giving tums until your order comes in have you ordered the kit or just blocks

[kastillo]

Henry's Pets has powdered calcium that you can sprinkle on their food.
I do it to mine's veggies daily. I heavily sprinkle their avacado because that is what they usually eat first.
It's tasteless and they don't notice it. Good way to supplement daily calcium.

I actually put my calcium in a little fish shaped salt shaker, and I call it their calcium shaker, so when I make their veggies, I can just sprinkle it on, no fuss!!

[spencerwolf]

Wow- I didn't see that before.
That MBD Kit is actually a bargin considering everything I need I was looking at spending $20 on blocks and $10 on just calcium and I've already spent $10 on natural foods.

:thankyou
I'll be ordering that ASAP!

[kim3962]

Yes. It will have everything you need. It has done wonders for mine

[kim3962]

Make sure you spread calcium out over the day not just here and there. I do 100mg every 4 hours.

[kastillo]

Wow- I didn't see that before.
That MBD Kit is actually a bargin considering everything I need I was looking at spending $20 on blocks and $10 on just calcium and I've already spent $10 on natural foods.

:thankyou
I'll be ordering that ASAP!

Good deal.
P.S. When are we going to be able to see pictures of you little one, hmmmm??

:worthless

[kim3962]

The blocks will also have calcium in them. You will have to talk to one of the experts in here to find out dose for yours on calcium. My squirrel was very sick and each one is different

[kim3962]

Make sure you check in here in the morning the experts will be on and can give you alot of information.

[kim3962]

NO NUTS

[Pennyorf]

I am not claiming to be an expert but to make sure my squirrels have a calcium rich diet I give them a little bit of silk milk. They love the berry flavor and the milk comes from soy beans or endamame which squirrels are allowed to eat. It has 50% more calcium then regular milk and is easy to give to them because they love it. I also give them lots of mushrooms and broccoli and will give them sardine bones which they also love although it is stinky. I also go out and break off oak tree limbs that they eat and chew and acorns. Acorns are also high in calcium and a natural food for them. They will also eat the oak tree leaves occasionally.

I try to offer them natural outside food as much as possible. We have a garden so they also get broccoli leaves, garden lettuce and hibiscus flowers which they love. Squirrels love bark and it should be a staple in their diet. Don't forget to give them outside food.

As a treat I will give them some grape seed oil. It is full of vitamin e and they love the nutty flavor and go nuts over it. You can get it easily from your grocery store.

Squirrels also like fish and crab. We will very rarely give them this and will never offer any other meat. After seeing both of my squirrels devour lizards from my lanai I figured protein is a pretty essential part of their diet.

Of course we have Henry's block and Kaytees rat block always in their bowls but they seem to turn their noses up to it so we have had to seek out other options to keep our precious babies healthy.

Hope this helps someone else who has a finicky eater.

[Skul]

Kastillo pointed me here, as I didn't see it.
Sometimes, too much mushroom can be a problem.
I would suggest reducing the shroom to only a couple small pieces each day.
Maintain the calcium a little bit.
What is the little monster getting for animal protein?
Folks sometimes forget that flyers have a higher protein need than regular squirrels.

[stepnstone]

Spencerwolf...
Skul definitly knows flyers so you've got the attention of one of the best.:thumbsup

[spencerwolf]

Nice to have your help Skul!
Before his diet was fruits, nuts, and carrots.
Now it's mushrooms, mealworms, carrots, and it's now the occasional nut.
I do try to get as many outside/natural things in his cage- though lately everything has been covered in snow- so I have to wait till it melts.

Besides Henry's, what foods should Rocky have? And how much of?
Also what drinks should I give him, as mentioned there's silk milk and I've heard other things. I've been giving him water.

He seems to be doing great today!
I broke off a bit of the tums from last night and sprinkled it on his bowl of food and he ate the whole bowl- so he had to have gotten some calcium.

As Pennyorf mentioned they only feed there's crab and fish as a treat. Should I incorporate more meat into his diet? Is chicken okay? I can easily go get crab or fish. I would imagine staying away from Tuna due to it's high mercury levels.

It would be great to know what one of the best feeds their flyers daily!
Rocky is really open to change- he usually loves whatever new things I put in his cage or add to his diet.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

i have researched online the vitamin D3 mushroom connection, and I am afraid that only wild grown mushrooms that have been exposed to sunlight have Vitamin D3 in them.

However, egg yolks have good source of Vitamin D3 in them if you want to try that.

Eggs are natural source of food for wilds.

I also see online that they make vitamin D3 drops for children, maybe you could check the pharmacy for that.

i would dip avocado in calcium powder and feed daily if squirrel likes avocado

MEALWORMS ordered online or from a pet store are good source of protien

[spencerwolf]

For meats or egg yolks- should I cook these?

[spencerwolf]

I hear, Vitamin D3 can be found in:
-Cod Liver Oil: With 500 IU's a teaspoon! (Also contains Vitamin A though)
-Each yolk: contains about 20 IU's
-Fish: Fatty fish like salmon, sardines, makerel, and herring are good sources of vitamin D though it varies between 200-1200 IU's a serving.
-Milk: 100 IU's a serving

-Mushrooms: Wild Mushrooms can have up to 500 IU's of Vitamin D2.

I just pulled that off a health article, the idea of fish sounds fancy, since it appeals to both Vitamin D and protein which he needs. I'm not sure of the protein levels to Vitamin D levels- which may not make it as great after all, but it's still something, right?

[spencerwolf]

Someone gave me a bag of Hartz Bonanza Hamster Gerbil Diet, which even on the bag talks about how it's supposed to be great for Vitamin D, Calcium, and Protein. Looking at the levels of it on the bag, it seems pretty good. The only nut like thing in there are pumpkin seeds- but not many. Any opinions on that?

My mom got it from a friend who is close with a vet, and was recommended this for keeping up those 3 levels. So she delivered it to me, I gave him some and he loves it- almost more than I've seen him love other foods.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

i would assume raw they would eat as it is wild. Stosh's squirrels eat scrambled eggs... lol

I researched 40 IUs per egg yolk.

There is a company in California that makes Vit D mushrooms for sale, but they expose them to UV lite as they grow.

[Skul]

Some shrooms are better than others.
Some shroom is better than none.
The gills seem to be the favorite part.

Try a small dab of all narural vanilla flavored yogurt. Ours enjoy it.
Work a lot more with green vegetables, and reduce the carrot to a very small piece.
Nuts should be in the shell, as it helps keep teeth healthy. Filberts work best for that. Large nuts may need to be shelled, then only used for desert.
We avoid pine nuts due to the Ca:Phos ratio.

Fish would be a no-no.:shakehead

[spencerwolf]

Thanks everyone, I'll keep seeking advice!
Here's the link to the topic about Rocky, the little guy you all have been helping out.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=841676#post841676

You can also follow him on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/rockythefs

I created the page near the beginning because I only ever posted statuses about Rocky and people wanted to show the story to other people, so eventually I was persuaded enough to make a page just for him!

:thankyou

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/486203_415782565166111_473775182_n.png

[Skul]

That's a cute little stinker.
I hadn't seen it mentioned.
About how old?

[kastillo]

Awwww...... I love those whiskers!!

[kastillo]

How is Rocky doing, I saw you posted on the Flyer Board, too.
Just checking in to see how he's doing?