Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

[island rehabber]

This thread will be a place to discuss proposed additions and tweaks to the MBD Emergency Treatment protocol.

I have already asked Leigh of Henry's Pets to work with us on this issue, guided by the recommendations of both Drs Emerson (FL) and Pilny (NYC) who are experienced squirrel veterinarians. We are planning to recommend the addition of Vit D3 to the emergency treatment, especially during the crucial days between onset of symptoms and the arrival of Fox Valley formula, HHB's, or other supplements. How, when, and how much will be what we want to discuss and determine.
*The MBD protocol will be part of The Squirrel Board and not attributed or credited to any one individual, regardless of input. And if you don't believe us we'll sic grandsquarent on you; he's not only a member, he's an intellectual property attorney. :D :alright.gif

[jbtartell]

:rotfl :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

[Fireweed]

:bowdown

[farrelli]

Thank you. Unless they disagree, I would like to avoid scarey talk about D in the protocol. While it can be overdosed, if squirrels are like most other mammals, it's hard to overdose and takes a fair bit of time to do so. Moreover, the symptoms of toxic levels tend to begin with hypercalcemia, which isn't any more of a risk than too much supplemental calcium, which is always communicated to users as not being a "real" risk during the last stages of MBD. I would imagine that these people will often be getting their D from human supplements, so I wouldn't want them petrified that if they scrape off ANY more than a tiny dusting that they will be hurting their squirrels and thereby give too little. Because these squirrels are already nutritionally deprived, they're also probably lacking D, and without D, the calcium will be only moderately effective to wholly ineffective. As such, assuming that they have enough D already on board and therefore not getting effective treatment, is more of a risk than the not too toxic toxicity of D. Anyway, that's what I think.

Are we going to be asking them about adding magnesium to the treatment too? D and mag are the two big things necessary for calcium absorption and is even harder to overdose on than D. If my beloved squirrel was on her deathbed, I would want this information and I'd be down to the drug store immediately.

[Milo's Mom]

I have a question...hopefully I can make it sound like a question...this might get long, so I'm sorry in advance if it does.

Formula - in the majority of cases formula is fed only to "babies" and then when they wean they are on just solids. The amount of Vit D in formula is what a growing baby needs. They are smaller and weigh less and their bones are not as big although they are growing.

Most MBD cases - I believe for the most part the majority of the MBD cases we see are in the juvies, right? Like those less than a year old. In most cases they are still growing and maturing, in comparison to an "older" squirrel 2, 3, 4, 5, etc years old. The "older" squirrels are bigger, weigh more, have more fat and they are fully matured.

When we say that the magnesium and Vit D3 needed for calcium absorption is provided in the formula (any formula) is the amount more so suited for a young squirrel or smaller squirrel...those that are 1 year or less?

Would a larger heavier squirrel (one with more body mass) require a bit more magnesium & Vit D3? They have bigger bones that have been being damaged for a longer amount of time?

As we age everything tends to slow down, is it the same for squirrels? Since we are both mammals I would assume it is.

If an older squirrel presents with MBD will their bodies absorb the calcium fast enough with only using the magnesium & Vit D3 provided in the formula? Or would it be beneficial to add a little more for the older squirrels?

When an item says it has this much of this or this much of that, how much of this or that is actually absorbed and used by the body versus just passing through?

The MBD protocol for Flyers was adjusted as it was discovered/learned that they do not need as much calcium as a grey. Would this also be true in a lesser scale for reds, greys, and foxers? Reds at maturity are maybe a pound, a grey might be 1.5 pounds and a foxer could be as much as 2.5 to 3 pounds. To me, it seems logical that a red would not need as much calcium as a foxer...they are not as big, they have less bone mass.

For instance; Meemor (a red (I am not picking on FW or Meemor...just the first red that came to mind cause I was just reading his thread)) and Ellie (a foxer and a small foxer at that). Meemor zips, zags, pings and pongs and I'm sure his metabolism does the same. Ellie does not even know the definition of zip, zag, ping or pong, and in general she is much slower. I would assume that her metabolism is also much slower. Does this make a difference when it comes to them absorbing the appropriate levels of magnesium and Vit D3 thus enabling them to absorb the necessary amounts of calcium?

I realize the MBD protocol cannot be tailored for each different kind of squirrel and it should not be...that's what the Healthy Diet is for. But I do wonder if the protocol should be modified slightly for a squirrel that presents with MBD symptoms and is 2 years of age or more. I also think that if an older squirrel is thought to have MBD the protocol should be started immediately and within the first 3 days of starting treatment a vet willing to take x-rays is located. The bigger you are the harder you fall and since they are older it is likely that they have had an improper diet longer which would mean that the MBD has been there longer and the bones are even weaker...I think the chances of significant injury is greater. Then if by day 3 a noticeable change is not noted...too the vet for x-rays they go.

Yes, I know...finding vet care is hard and finding a vet that knows about squirrels is even harder. I happen to live in a state that HATES squirrels and finding vet care is nothing short of impossible...yet I know several members that live in the same state as me and they have had their squirrels seen by a vet! If you are diligent and try hard, NOTHING is impossible...you're gonna have to work your hiney off, but it can be done (especially if it's been done in my state).

Okay, yes, it did get long and there are several questions and as they are answered and discussed I am sure I will have more. :D

[farrelli]

Great questions MM! My thoughts on the matter are that once formula or blocks have arrived (I assume a period of at least three days), the D could be stopped seeing that it's fat soluble and the body would have stored some up already from the supplements. I believe, however, that mag is water soluble and thus can't be stored, so I would continue with its administration for as long as you're providing the additional calcium. Again, it's very hard to overdose on mag.

About age, for older adults, I would continue on with supplements for longer, but probably in the form of Henry's vitamins after the normal MBD emergency treatment duration. They do have more bone structure to reform, and probably just like in humans, with age the body becomes far less efficient at doing that.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Were those your basic questions?

[island rehabber]

Great questions and points, everyone. I think what we need to focus our efforts on is until the blocks/formula arrive, how much D3 (+ magnesium?) do we need to get into the squirrel for those crucial first few days?

We will need to research the RDA's for those elements, if that's the proper term, and go from there.....

[Itchiku's dad]

I think we need to work out the D3 to calcium ratio, as this is an area that that could cause a problem. Then to produce a supplement to the correct ratio. At present there are 2 types of calcium D3 available. The type for humans and the type for reptiles.
We had a problem with these ratios last year, so I did a bit of research on the popular reptile supplements and found that the ratios differed greatly from one to another. We need to find out how much D3 is too much and how much is too little. We also need a way of measuring this supplement: we can't say a pinch every day, as a pinch is too vague.

[Anne]

IR, this is a great idea! We are so fortunate to have these wonderful squirrel(wildlife) vets to help us with the MBD treatments. I look forward to seeing new thoughts and idea from these great resources!

[Nancy in New York]

I think we need to work out the D3 to calcium ratio, as this is an area that that could cause a problem. Then to produce a supplement to the correct ratio. At present there are 2 types of calcium D3 available. The type for humans and the type for reptiles.
We had a problem with these ratios last year, so I did a bit of research on the popular reptile supplements and found that the ratios differed greatly from one to another. We need to find out how much D3 is too much and how much is too little. We also need a way of measuring this supplement: we can't say a pinch every day, as a pinch is too vague.
Also keep in mind the two calciums, again with different potency/amounts of calcium.
Calcium citrate, and calcium carbonate.

[Nancy in New York]

One thing that struck me about this, is the fact that many people that come on with an emergency are not equipped with magnesium, calcium, or vitamin D.
Many times they don't even have tums.
We need two protocols, our current one and what?...the optimal one?

Tums is easily accessable and measured out.
Many members do not have the funds to buy supplements for a couple of days, some don't have cars or live out in the boonies.
AND you know they are not going to buy the blocks.

We cannot throw our old protocol out the window or we will see many more deaths.

[Milo's Mom]

One thing that struck me about this, is the fact that many people that come on with an emergency are not equipped with magnesium, calcium, or vitamin D.
Many times they don't even have tums.
We need two protocols, our current one and what?...the optimal one?

Tums is easily accessable and measured out.
Many members do not have the funds to buy supplements for a couple of days, some don't have cars or live out in the boonies.
AND you know they are not going to buy the blocks.

We cannot throw our old protocol out the window or we will see many more deaths.

Very good points. I cannot tell you how many times I am shocked when someone says they do not have TUMS. Everyone has TUMS!

I do not think our current protocol should be thrown out. It's time tested and proven to work. It's saved numerous squirrels. Heck at this point I'm not even positive it should be modified...

[Itchiku's dad]

You can't by tums where I am, but I can pop into a drug store and buy Calcium carbonate pills, which will cost just as much if not more than the Henry's Vitamins.

[CritterMom]

If the animal can be gotten on something like ensure right away - and actually accept and drink it - then they will be okay with the mag/D in the ensure backing up the tums until they can get HHBs or at least the Henry vitamins to use in whatever.

If they can't get it to take any food that will provide the magnesium and D, yes, it ABSOLUTELY needs to be supplemented, because the calcium is virtually useless without the other minerals.

Cal/Mag/D combination supplements are pretty readily available in a drug store. The proportions are off but we may want to think about an "easily available" combo of tums and one of those, ground and combined and divided into an approximate daily dose based on total calcium milligrams. Example: 1) 750mg Tums and (1) Cal/Mag/D that has a total of 300mg of calcium. Grind both pills together, divide the amount into two equal amounts and you would have 550mg in each, or enough for (1) day on the initial high dose days of the MBD treatment.

It needs to be easily available and that would be... I have no idea of the proportions.

The MBD protocol is really written assuming that the animal gets on the HHBs as soon as possible. If for some reason that isn't going to happen, having a relatively easy way to get the bare minimum of D and magnesium is needed...

[jbtartell]

One thing that struck me about this, is the fact that many people that come on with an emergency are not equipped with magnesium, calcium, or vitamin D.
Many times they don't even have tums.
We need two protocols, our current one and what?...the optimal one?

Tums is easily accessable and measured out.
Many members do not have the funds to buy supplements for a couple of days, some don't have cars or live out in the boonies.
AND you know they are not going to buy the blocks.

We cannot throw our old protocol out the window or we will see many more deaths.
MM I agree, I dont think it would be good to throw it out either, I was one of the newbies and I dont know jack about how much of what is what.. but I can follow instructions.. I did do what every one told me and My Sam pulled through and I had 7 more years of the 8 with her.. and her diet was right from then out.. soo it does work and we should keep it and not confuse newbies with the go get this that and how much and not to muchs.. and when the vets get the right amounts of the vitamines added to it then we change it but I say keep the old one too for just incases that dont have the means to get all they need.. even now I could not afford to get it..:poke

[CrazySquirrelLady]

Why not recommend feeding MUSHROOMS to MBD patients until the Henry's Blocks arrive?

Since they are a good source of Vit D. And at every grocery store in USA....


Then there is no messing with vitamin pills and dosage and stuff.

If they are starving for vitamin D, I think they will naturally want to eat the mushrooms. If not, perhaps Critter Mom has a recipe.

I sometimes make mushroom and avocado sandwiches for my boys, well I don't use 2 slices of mushroom, just put avocado on top like a spread. They eat it up.



OK went online and EGG YOLK has 40 ius of Vitamin D in each one. so maybe they would eat a egg yolk? Natural squirrel food?

and mushrooms need to be exposed to Ultraviolet light to make Vitamin D, so mushrooms maybe not as good as I thought? Some mushroom manufacturers do expose their mushrooms to UV light, but I don't know which ones.


OK wild mushrooms have tons of Vit. D.

and if you want super vit D mushrooms, here's a link....; http://www.montereymushrooms.com/nutrition/vitamin-d/

they grow super Vit D mushrooms there for sale.

[SammysMom]

All of this is wonderful information for rehabbers. For the general public, rather than asking the 16 year old who found a baby squirrel to try to measure and weigh Vitamin D (which comes in so many different strengths as well as in tablet or gelcap) doesn't it make more sense to say Ensure and Tums? It supplies the calcium, Vitamin D and calories.
Personally, in my opinion, simplicity is the best thing. The more "steps & ingredients" we give, the easier it is for it to get screwed up.:shakehead
Tums saved my Sammy from my stupidity!

[farrelli]

From my short experience here (although, sadly, quite a number of MBD threads) at least half or more of the people don't have Tums on hand (I don't and most people I know don't either), so these people will be heading to the store to get supplies anyway. As such, I think that it'll be easy enough to tell them to get the cal/mag/d supplement(s) when they're out. Every 24-hour drug store has them. If they do have some source of cal on hand, I would prefer if they were instructed to provide it immediately and then get the other two nutrients pronto ("not tomorrow, NOW").

I also think that we shouldn't be overly cautious here. The vets will have to chime in, but in every other mammal I've ever seen, none of these three things are particularly toxic, they're hard to overdose, and tend to take a long time to do so (a period of time greater than the emergency treatment). Moreover, the first overdose symptom is hypercalcemia, which we've always pooh-poohed as a non-issue when treating MBD when it's come to the calcium portion, so I don't see how it would be any different for D.

Lastly, I think that the reverence for the current treatment comes largely from the fact that many of the people on this board have used it effectively in their personal lives, but then again, the people whose babies have succumb tend to leave and never come back. Psychologically, people are predisposed to remember successes and not failures, and as such, tend to see things as working, even if they're not (or at least not optimally). In my few months here I must say that if I think over the many instances where I've helped on MBD threads, the really bad ones where paralysis and seizures were happening, I'd have to guess that at least half of those squirrels have died. Probably more. For the ones where it worked, it would be logically necessary that the supplemental cal was given to a squirrel which just happened to have a diet which gave them enough D and mag in their systems to use it, and I don't think that this is a safe assumption to make for all squirrels, especially given their condition of nutritional deprivation. Were the ones who perished or didn't recover mobility short of these things and is that the reason that they didn't make it? I don't know. But seeing that supplemental D and mag aren't particularly toxic, I can't see why on earth we wouldn't recommend it. It's super easy to get, the downsides are minimal to non-existent, and the upside could be saving a life and curing paralysis. That's my take.

[farrelli]

Why not recommend feeding MUSHROOMS to MBD patients until the Henry's Blocks arrive?

Because in the majority of the cases that at least I've worked on, these squirrels aren't hungry and won't eat. That's true of two currently open and active threads on MBD. Seeing that, pending vet approval, D isn't really too toxic, why not go with it? I mean, we don't fuss around with the calcium, giving them cal rich foods and whatnot, we give them a supplement to get them kick started in a time of emergency. Why not D and mag?

[HRT4SQRLS]

From my short experience here

I also think that we shouldn't be overly cautious here. The vets will have to chime in, but in every other mammal I've ever seen, none of these three things are particularly toxic, they're hard to overdose, and tend to take a long time to do so ..... Moreover, the first overdose symptom is hypercalcemia, which we've always pooh-poohed as a non-issue when treating MBD when it's come to the calcium portion, so I don't see how it would be any different for D.

But seeing that supplemental D and mag aren't particularly toxic, I can't see why on earth we wouldn't recommend it. It's super easy to get, the downsides are minimal to non-existent, and the upside could be saving a life and curing paralysis. That's my take.

Sorry farelli, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I am getting ready to leave so I don't have time to post at length. You seem to be under the impression that Vitamin D is not toxic. Do you know that Vitamin D is used as a rodenticide? Rodenticide ... aka ... rat poison. You need to google ... Vitamin D Rodenticide. It might be difficult to overdose humans but the consequences of overdose in rats, and yes, squirrels is DEATH. The material related to the question at hand is extremely complex. The material I was reading last night indicates that, for rats, the range between acceptable dosing and toxic levels is actually quite small. I think this qualifies as a "down side".

I probably would have shared your opinion a while back, but after becoming aware of this little piece of extremely important information, it has definitely changed my thinking. Sooooo, any recommendations about adding Vitamin D to the MBD protocol needs to be carefully considered. Mind you, I am NOT 100% against it but maybe it should be recommended on a case by case issue as opposed to rewriting a protocol that has proven to work.

[farrelli]

Yes, I have seen that before, and that's why the vets will be consulted, but from what I've read, a little D3, especially for the first few days wouldn't be a problem. Let's take a common D variant used for this purpose, Cholecalciferol.

One IU of vitamin D3 is equivalent to 0.025 mcg of cholecalciferol, and you apparently need 1 mg per pound of body weight of cholecalciferol to start to see symptoms, with deaths occurring in rodents with 4 mg per pound of body weight. That would be a fair bit of D3. As such, I would think that a small bit of D wouldn't be a problem and could provide HUGE benefits. And as I said earlier, I would only give it for the first, maybe three days or so. The body stores it and you'd just need some at the beginning to get things kick started. The protocol would have to point out that they should watch the dosing, but not be so scarey in this regard that they don't give any at all.

[Milo's Mom]

So, once again, I ask...how much Vit D3 & magnesium is in the formula (FV, KMR, First Born, Esbilac, Goat's Milk Recipe, etc.)?

And,

How much Vit D3 and magnesium are needed to allow the body to appropriately absorb the calcium?

The answer to this question MIGHT answer the entire question regarding the MBD protocol.....we'd possibly suggest one readily available formula over another while waiting for the one that must be ordered, since it has the appropriate and safe levels of Vit D3 and Mangesium.

[Itchiku's dad]

I think what SammysMom and jbtartell have said is very important. If you think about it: most of the people who come to the MBD treatment protocol or a thread about it come via Google. They're not members and probably don't become members. They're Joe public who have Googled their problem, and Google has brought them here.

So, this protocol has to be (for lack of a better phrase) idiot proof. You can't say, " You need to get calcium, D3 and magnesium: 700 mg cal/.501 UI D3/5 mg mag." People are just going to get confused. They probable won't even read the numbers: just see calcium, D3. and think I can use Timmy's supplement he has for his tortoise. not realizing that it has a 100,000 UI/lb ratio, which is not good for the squirrel.
We need something that's easily available, and more that 1 option for the short term: We also need an optimum one for long term treatment.

Anyway the first thing is to find this optimum ratio. Because until we can work out what that is: finding a simple way to administer comes next. We also need an upper limit and lower limit for the ratio. As we all hopefully know: X amount of something is o.k while Y amount of the same can be toxic.

[jbtartell]

Sorry farelli, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I am getting ready to leave so I don't have time to post at length. You seem to be under the impression that Vitamin D is not toxic. Do you know that Vitamin D is used as a rodenticide? Rodenticide ... aka ... rat poison. You need to google ... Vitamin D Rodenticide. It might be difficult to overdose humans but the consequences of overdose in rats, and yes, squirrels is DEATH. The material related to the question at hand is extremely complex. The material I was reading last night indicates that, for rats, the range between acceptable dosing and toxic levels is actually quite small. I think this qualifies as a "down side".

I probably would have shared your opinion a while back, but after becoming aware of this little piece of extremely important information, it has definitely changed my thinking. Sooooo, any recommendations about adding Vitamin D to the MBD protocol needs to be carefully considered. Mind you, I am NOT 100% against it but maybe it should be recommended on a case by case issue as opposed to rewriting a protocol that has proven to work.

this is sooo true.. I will not experment on my babies.. at alll.. not wit anything not tested and proven.. sooo Ok what if I was new and come on here needing help and someone said to give the vit d and mag, I did and gave too much or as said to me and my baby died because I did not know about the toxity, not every one will do the research.. and well there are to many what ifs.. I want to get advice that has been tested and is known to work not something that is said to might work and is just an idea. and well I woulsd not risk it when something is working over and over,and when it dont the baby probably has to much damage to repare at that point. there are some that get to bad for it to work.. and no vitd or anything can save them.. there is a thin line there and well I just cant see risking it.:dono

[farrelli]

this is sooo true.. I will not experment on my babies.. at alll.. not wit anything not tested and proven.. sooo Ok what if I was new and come on here needing help and someone said to give the vit d and mag, I did and gave too much or as said to me and my baby died because I did not know about the toxity, not every one will do the research.. and well there are to many what ifs.. I want to get advice that has been tested and is known to work not something that is said to might work and is just an idea. and well I woulsd not risk it when something is working over and over,and when it dont the baby probably has to much damage to repare at that point. there are some that get to bad for it to work.. and no vitd or anything can save them.. there is a thin line there and well I just cant see risking it.:dono

You may not be willing to "gamble" on D, but you are willing to gamble that they have the necessary nutrients on board to utilize the calcium given in the MBD protocol. I would not be willing to roll those dice, especially since D really isn't very toxic. Some people here portray it as if it's cyanide, but I've yet to see that borne out anywhere. Even given what HRT4SQRLS rightly pointed out about D3 being used as a means of rodent extermination, all the numbers I've found indicate that I could give a squirrel my ENTIRE D3 pill that I take every day, and that would only rise to the level of slight toxicity, and I'd have to give him FOUR of them to kill him. Now, in the protocol, we'd probably be advocating taking a slight shaving of a commonly found human 500 or 1000 IU supplement, so the chances of overdose with that would be slim indeed. There would seem to be a very wide margin of fault tolerance there. Moreover, we'd clearly state that while the cal and mag would be ongoing, the D would be a single dose, or one dose a day for three days, something like that. The vets will hopefully have some input on that.

And about the current MBD protocol being "known to work", my question is how well does it actually work? Has anyone kept stats? It's totally anecdotal, but once I became active on this board and started pitching in with the MBD threads, I had to work on five of them before one survived. And of all the threads that I've worked on so far, I'd have to say that less than half have survived. All that time I kept wondering how wise it was to toe the party line on that protocol given that, in all likelihood, the squirrels being given the treatment may or may not have the necessary chemistry already on board to utilize the calcium to the necessary degree. Now, fortunately,we're discussing the wisdom of that assumption.

About what Itchiku's dad says about keeping it simple, I agree. However, I think that a simple document advising the administering of D and mag could be easily written with the proper warnings about reptile supplements and the like. Moreover, it has been my experience that even with the current protocol, the user ALWAYS solicits a lot of hand holding during the process. "Tums? What kind? There's different kinds! What flavor? Do I have to grind it up? Can he eat it plain? Can I mix it with juice? Can he eat the whole thing? Can he overdose on it? ..." I think I've been on two threads where the person just went ahead and followed it. And they did it perfectly, though they were unclear about continuing treatment.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I am not sure any input I have will help or have barrings here,
however...
and although,
I am not a licensed rehabber...and do not even call myself a rehabber..
I have had a couple...MBD sqs that you all know...
and love,
live thru the worst nightmare seizures...
as tough as I am...I have cried and had Leigh on the phone for many hours, many times, as I jack'ed calcium carbonate in MBD seizing sqs..

I know what I have done for years to have worked,
I have never lost a MBD seizing sq, even have released a few...
hate to seem to have a narrow/closed mind..
but I will continue using the means that I have been... clean calcium.
I have my own version of a shake that I use to suppliment as soon as sq has stablized...and I agree..we love Ensure as well.
I am a firm believer in Henry's products to maintain dietary health during and after treatment.

hands on must mean something...
it does to Kelly Brady...
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and vets are not the answer...very few will know half of what the members here do...
I am not dis'en vets.. I love a smart mind that helps critters...
just saying what I have found thru needing vet help in this exact area...MBD.
NONE have been thorough...none claimed to know a dang thing... simply made generic mentions of cal sups...
I will not use a reptile sup .....too many reasons not too.
Phooey on Rugby's and the likes... 8mg of elemental calcium in 0.3ml..that's a joke...
the fricken sugar would kill the sq thru diabeties if we were able to get enough of these type infant/children's suppliments into our sqs.
did that research already as well...


Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

and yes...rat poison kills sqs, thank you patti...
I can see those threads already..

I venture to say most MBD sqs will be pets of the age of three years and older...or worse still... young sqs that have been feed improper formula or weaned early...

I have read/researched til my eyes puked blood... for years now...
there are dangers associated with this suggested change..
and I honestly do not see where a change is needed...
but I am not medical or brilliant...and will be lurking and hoping that a good concrete, complete with evidence, answer is found...


the MBD protocool does NOT KILL SQS>>>
...bad diet and no research does.

bless the little souls that have suffered this...
and thanks to the people who will research this...

[pappy1264]

:goodpost :goodpost

[SammysMom]

Thank-you everyone who is contributing to this thread. I think maybe what we all need to remember here is that TSB does not EVER profess to know the ONLY path to healthy squirrels. The bottom line is that as long as ALL of the information is available here it is good. There are points about Vitamin D that some people feel strongly about on both sides. Since TSB is made up of individuals who can share knowledge and experience it should work out just fine. Today, we have many years of experience with the current protocol. If is is proven through that experience that adding D is what is best, then I am sure it will happen. At this point it has been proven that Tums is the treatment that has been tried and true by the majority of members here. If research proves differently in actual squirrel cases, we should change the protocol. To just change it without the cases to prove the merit would in my opinion be irresponsible.
We are not pretending to be vets. We are member sharing experience. Vets learn things in books and through research on lab animals. TSB is not in that position. TSB is just people who care about squirrels. I think we do a pretty darned good job of it too. We don't take credit for saving other people's squirrels. We are not going to take the blame for killing them. We are the library that lends the information. We are not the surgeons who do the surgery.

[Charley Chuckles]

Just wondered if you coukld buy it online, to have for an emergency :dono they will last a long time I should think :thinking
You can't by tums where I am, but I can pop into a drug store and buy Calcium carbonate pills, which will cost just as much if not more than the Henry's Vitamins.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

Once again I suggest Egg Yolk with 40 IUs of Vitamin D per yolk.

Is this a totally dumb idea? cuz no one commented on it. Everyone has eggs in the fridge.

So you got your MBD squirrel, so you feed it some tums and a egg yolk. Problem solved. He gets his calcium and his Vitamin D. YUM YUM

[island rehabber]

Once again a gentle reminder, folks: both Dr Emerson and Dr Pilny, who are squirrel vets, recommend D3, not D. We need to focus on that, I think.

[island rehabber]

Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.


I like this idea, and would be happy to reach out to them.

[jbtartell]

You may not be willing to "gamble" on D, but you are willing to gamble that they have the necessary nutrients on board to utilize the calcium given in the MBD protocol. I would not be willing to roll those dice, especially since D really isn't very toxic. Some people here portray it as if it's cyanide, but I've yet to see that borne out anywhere. Even given what HRT4SQRLS rightly pointed out about D3 being used as a means of rodent extermination, all the numbers I've found indicate that I could give a squirrel my ENTIRE D3 pill that I take every day, and that would only rise to the level of slight toxicity, and I'd have to give him FOUR of them to kill him. Now, in the protocol, we'd probably be advocating taking a slight shaving of a commonly found human 500 or 1000 IU supplement, so the chances of overdose with that would be slim indeed. There would seem to be a very wide margin of fault tolerance there. Moreover, we'd clearly state that while the cal and mag would be ongoing, the D would be a single dose, or one dose a day for three days, something like that. The vets will hopefully have some input on that.

And about the current MBD protocol being "known to work", my question is how well does it actually work? Has anyone kept stats? It's totally anecdotal, but once I became active on this board and started pitching in with the MBD threads, I had to work on five of them before one survived. And of all the threads that I've worked on so far, I'd have to say that less than half have survived. All that time I kept wondering how wise it was to toe the party line on that protocol given that, in all likelihood, the squirrels being given the treatment may or may not have the necessary chemistry already on board to utilize the calcium to the necessary degree. Now, fortunately,we're discussing the wisdom of that assumption.

About what Itchiku's dad says about keeping it simple, I agree. However, I think that a simple document advising the administering of D and mag could be easily written with the proper warnings about reptile supplements and the like. Moreover, it has been my experience that even with the current protocol, the user ALWAYS solicits a lot of hand holding during the process. "Tums? What kind? There's different kinds! What flavor? Do I have to grind it up? Can he eat it plain? Can I mix it with juice? Can he eat the whole thing? Can he overdose on it? ..." I think I've been on two threads where the person just went ahead and followed it. And they did it perfectly, though they were unclear about continuing treatment.


Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?

[jbtartell]

Once again I suggest Egg Yolk with 40 IUs of Vitamin D per yolk.

Is this a totally dumb idea? cuz no one commented on it. Everyone has eggs in the fridge.

So you got your MBD squirrel, so you feed it some tums and a egg yolk. Problem solved. He gets his calcium and his Vitamin D. YUM YUM
yes all natural is better..:thumbsup :thumbsup

[jbtartell]

I am not sure any input I have will help or have barrings here,
however...
and although,
I am not a licensed rehabber...and do not even call myself a rehabber..
I have had a couple...MBD sqs that you all know...
and love,
live thru the worst nightmare seizures...
as tough as I am...I have cried and had Leigh on the phone for many hours, many times, as I jack'ed calcium carbonate in MBD seizing sqs..

I know what I have done for years to have worked,
I have never lost a MBD seizing sq, even have released a few...
hate to seem to have a narrow/closed mind..
but I will continue using the means that I have been... clean calcium.
I have my own version of a shake that I use to suppliment as soon as sq has stablized...and I agree..we love Ensure as well.
I am a firm believer in Henry's products to maintain dietary health during and after treatment.

hands on must mean something...
it does to Kelly Brady...
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and vets are not the answer...very few will know half of what the members here do...
I am not dis'en vets.. I love a smart mind that helps critters...
just saying what I have found thru needing vet help in this exact area...MBD.
NONE have been thorough...none claimed to know a dang thing... simply made generic mentions of cal sups...
I will not use a reptile sup .....too many reasons not too.
Phooey on Rugby's and the likes... 8mg of elemental calcium in 0.3ml..that's a joke...
the fricken sugar would kill the sq thru diabeties if we were able to get enough of these type infant/children's suppliments into our sqs.
did that research already as well...


Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

and yes...rat poison kills sqs, thank you patti...
I can see those threads already..

I venture to say most MBD sqs will be pets of the age of three years and older...or worse still... young sqs that have been feed improper formula or weaned early...

I have read/researched til my eyes puked blood... for years now...
there are dangers associated with this suggested change..
and I honestly do not see where a change is needed...
but I am not medical or brilliant...and will be lurking and hoping that a good concrete, complete with evidence, answer is found...


the MBD protocool does NOT KILL SQS>>>
...bad diet and no research does.

bless the little souls that have suffered this...
and thanks to the people who will research this...


Great post Jackie..

[island rehabber]

:goodpost jbtartell....
and the answer to the question "does our MBD protocol really work?" Here's part of your answer, from Jackie in Tampa:


Kelly Brady...(Richard)
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and
and stepnstone's Annie...and too many others to remember.
Coming in here at a time when several MBD squirrels unfortunately passed, and therefore declaring the protocol ineffective, is foolish and unprofessional. It would do all of us well to remind ourselves the first and foremost Law of Wildlife Rehabilitation -

we CANNOT save them all.

Also: the effectiveness of the protocol varies wildly from one animal to another. Some squirrels get MBD at 5 months old, some not until 7-8 yrs old, and all the others in between. Some never get it at all. There is a cruel joke we sometimes tell on TSB that even though we promote the healthy diet to the high heavens, and sing the praises of the calc/phos ratios, there will STILL be that 10-yr-old squirrel somebody comes on here with, who has been living on Cheetos and beer his whole life and has thrived.:shakehead Makes you wanna scream, huh? We don't know all the answers, and we can't hedge every single bet. We just do our best.

[jbtartell]

:goodpost jbtartell....
and the answer to the question "does our MBD protocol really work?" Here's part of your answer, from Jackie in Tampa:


and stepnstone's Annie...and too many others to remember.
Coming in here at a time when several MBD squirrels unfortunately passed, and therefore declaring the protocol ineffective, is foolish and unprofessional. It would do all of us well to remind ourselves the first and foremost Law of Wildlife Rehabilitation -

we CANNOT save them all.

Also: the effectiveness of the protocol varies wildly from one animal to another. Some squirrels get MBD at 5 months old, some not until 7-8, and all the others in between. Some never get it at all. There is a cruel joke we sometimes tell on TSB that even though we promote the healthy diet to the high heavens, and sing the praises of the calc/phos ratios, there will STILL be that 10-yr-old squirrel somebody comes on here with, who has been living on Cheetos and beer his whole life and has thrived.:shakehead Makes you wanna scream, huh? We don't know all the answers, and we can't hedge every single bet. We just do our best.

IR Dont forget MY Beautiful Sam.. :poke :Love_Icon

[SammysMom]

IR Dont forget MY Beautiful Sam.. :poke :Love_Icon

Nobody on TSB will EVER forget your beautiful Sam!!
:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[Sara89nicole]

Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?

I agree with you here, I've seen farelli push an idea on several different occasions and in some of those instances it could of been more of a problem than a help. The existing MBD protocol has worked time and time again, sometimes people jut come looking for help to late or don't follow the advice given resulting in the loss of their squirrel. I understand everyone is entitled to throw in an opinion on what may be helpful in addin to the existing treatment but I believe that once you have stated your opinion and it has been responded to that you should stop repeating and stop pushing that idea (especially against the advise of more experienced people) it takes everyone here who has knowledge and experience with these cases coming together to help and for the person asking for the help to receive the correct information. If someone does happen to sign up to get help and they get the wron info pushed at them they are more likely to try it which may result in a fatality. I'm not an expert and I wouldn't know where I start myself with an MBD case nor do I have any ideas on what to add to the protocol. Sometimes it's just time to go, sometimes no matter how hard we try we cannot save our beloved little friends, that is not our choice, only God knows when the time has come and when he calls for one of his angels no power in the world can change that. I say stick with what works and create a backup plan for the ones who aren't able to do what the original says.

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

All I ask is make it simple. When in a panic - one does not have time to sort through all the opinions and ratios. Down and dirty - not all have had internships as rehabbers nor are many folks rehabbers -
Can we have it locked - as even I who is used to all the threads - gets confused when too many cooks spoil the broth. Love you all - but it gets confusing.
MBD Protocol for Dummies :D

[island rehabber]

Good thinking, 2ndHand...once the protocol is revised we will close the thread so it will not be debated in that place any longer. :thumbsup

[SammysMom]

I agree with your opinion here 2HRR. :thumbsup What is your opinion on the protocol? Tums or adding D3 or something else or not sure?

[jbtartell]

Nobody on TSB will EVER forget your beautiful Sam!!
:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

I know she was something special to so many TSB Angels.... {{plus I remind everyone almost every day}} :D :thankyou

[farrelli]

Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?

I don't believe that I have been insulting in any way about this and if you think that reevaluating a protocol to see if it is maximally effective is somehow disrespectful, you're pretty off the mark and apparently not as concerned with potentially helping squirrels as you are with conformity.

Yes, this list is wonderful. It helps many squirrels. If it didn't, I would be here. And yes, the current MBD protocol has helped many squirrels, but my question is whether it's helped as many as possible. Is it as good as it could be? Like I said, there is a bias here about it working for, as far as I can see, two primary reasons: 1) Humans are psychologically predisposed to concentrate on successes and minimize failures - they tend to overestimate how successful a given system is; and 2) The people who have success with the treatment tend to stick around the board and become regular members while those for whom it failed disappear - this creates a significant bias. The people here swear by it because it worked for them, but the people for whom it didn't are no longer around to voice their position on the matter.

Even if there was a way to statistically prove that it was effective more often than not, if the science says that you could make it even more effective with minimal risk, only a fool wouldn't change it simply because they're comfortable with what's currently "working". This is the way science works! This is the way healthcare works! Take a gander at, for example, a protocol to treat a particular form of cancer, they tend to undergo hundreds if not thousands of revisions, and are constantly being tweaked to make them more effective. No one says, "Well, it's tried and true. The ones who didn't make it? Well, they were just too far gone. It's not the protocol's fault. It, as we all know, is perfect." That just doesn't happen, and if it did, a lot more people would be dead. Fortunately, doctors are concerned with helping patients and actually welcome constructive criticism. They aren't satisfied until a treatment is 100% effective. Though that is rarely possible, they keep striving for that success.

The current protocol presumes that the squirrel has enough D and mag already on board to make use, of the calcium, but I'm not sure that's a safe assumption. If there is a safe way to make sure that the proper chemistry is present to make use of the calcium, why in god's name wouldn't you do it? That's all I'm saying here. How is that disrespectful? How does that besmirch the list, it's members, or the successes that it's had? Seriously, please tell me.

I am not attacking anyone over this. You're the only one who's made this thread personal. I just think that if this board is in the business of helping squirrels, they would be open to improvement. And as it happens, given that the protocol changes have been submitted to a couple vets for consideration, it is. I'm glad to see it.

[Milo's Mom]

Farrelli - I suggest you go back and re-read the protocol, because, my friend YOU'RE WRONG! No where in the current protocol does it allude to the squirrel having enough Vit D3 and magnesium on board. The Vit D3 and magnesium that is needed for the calcium absorption is provided in the formula and the blocks.

In addition, the body absorbs calcium in 2 different ways....active and passive. Active absorbtion is Vit D3 & magnesium dependent and passive absorption is NOT! So, even in the remote chance that the squirrel has absolutely no Vit D3 and magnesium in their system, the calcium will still be absorbed. Since the majority of people that use the MBD protocol are also providing the squirrel with formula, the squirrel IS receiving Vit D3 and magnesium so that the calcium will be absorbed through active absorption in addition to the passive absorption.

Lastly, you requested that additional research be done, you requested that the addition of additional Vit D3 and magnesium be researched and it is being done. It has been stated again and again that all of the research you've requested/demanded is being done. As you know from being in the medical field, good quality research CANNOT be done overnight and if it is, it is certainly of no quality that I would ever trust.

How about getting off your soapbox for a little and allow the research to be done and allow all of the statistics to be pulled together into some sort of a presentable manner!

IT IS BEING WORKED ON....in other words, we are doing exactly as you requested.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

Eggs
Vitamin D3 is stored in the yolk of eggs. In addition to vitamin D3, eggs contain significant levels of the more active hydroxylated metabolite, 25-hydroxy-vitamin D3, according to the Bio-Medicine website.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/252407-foods-rich-in-vitamin-d3/#ixzz2Hv6dq79O

Of course exposure to sunlight would be THE BEST way to get Vitamin D??? right? lol.

So most squirrels are getting some exposure to sunlight every day? And therefore probably not needing additional Vit D? evn tho they have MBD?

Just musing out loud here.

not an expert, just able to use google ;)

[djarenspace9]

CSL :poke the topic is the Emergency Protocol...used when the squirrel is in crisis.
Dietary and other sources of vitamins like sunlight are part of a healthy
lifestyle to prevent and recover from MBD.

What is being discussed here is how to pull them out of the severe symptoms,
like seizures and paralysis.
By the time they show these, a more drastic and focused approach needs to be taken to stabilize them.
It needs to be concentrated and swift since the squirrels in this stage
are not always cooperative in eating or drinking and are in distress.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

CSL :poke the topic is the Emergency Protocol...used when the squirrel is in crisis.
Dietary and other sources of vitamins like sunlight are part of a healthy
lifestyle to prevent and recover from MBD.

What is being discussed here is how to pull them out of the severe symptoms,
like seizures and paralysis.
By the time they show these, a more drastic and focused approach needs to be taken to stabilize them.
It needs to be concentrated and swift since the squirrels in this stage
are not always cooperative in eating or drinking and are in distress.

I realize that, I was trying to help. I figger if the squirrel is not eating there is no hope for him?

I thought additional ways of introducing Vitamin D3 was a topic here. I thought additional things to add to the MBD protocol were being discussed.

I did not mean to suggest eggs were a cure all for MBD, just an easy way to obtain Vitamin D3. Vitamin D is not available in many foods at all.

Squirrels commonly eat eggs they find in the wild. I would think an egg yolk would be a treat for a squirrel.

me no stupid much, me have degree from college in science....

[island rehabber]

no worries, CSL, your idea is a good one and is being figured into the mix here. But as djarenspace9 said, once the critical symptoms (paralysis, seizures) set in the squirrel is too far gone for merely a dietary change to save it. That's why we're discussing how much calcium, D3 and magnesium we need to get into that baby ASAP, those first few days.

As for sunlight, sunlight is wonderful and provides squirrels with the natural VitD they need. However, for most people with captive squirrels this is not so easy to provide for them....the necessary rays from the sun do not penetrate glass windows or doors, and only half penetrate a screen. So...if you're living in a cold climate or even in the summer if you don't want your house full of bugs, getting direct sunlight onto that squirrel is a problem -- and that's why we get so many MBD cases. Also, in an illegal state people cannot allow their neighbors to see the squirrel.....:(

[Garden71]

The people who have success with the treatment tend to stick around the board and become regular members while those for whom it failed disappear - this creates a significant bias. The people here swear by it because it worked for them, but the people for whom it didn't are no longer around to voice their position on the matter.


This is not true.....:nono

This is a little of the subject but he it goes.
I for one had a sick wild that we thought had poxs. His name was "SPEEDY". IR told me right from the start it didn't look good. I listen to everything that everyone told me to do on the board and sorry to say he didn't make it. It was fate that took Speedy nothing else... :shakehead .
I have stayed here and ever since and have learned more about squirrels from the members here than any book can. I have helped save 3 little ones and have treated numerous others for mange. And now since The Skuls have told me about the Echinacea water my wilds are even healthier.
So before you claim that ever one is running read some posts and you will see that this is far from the truth....:thumbsup

[CritterMom]

What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...

[djarenspace9]

no worries, CSL, your idea is a good one and is being figured into the mix here.
Yes, sorry CSL, I did not mean for it to sound like I disagreed.

:sorry

On the contrary, I am a HUGE proponent of natural food sources.
Just that I know from experience in a severe case I'd have to syringe feed
or even force the life-saving vitamins and nutrients, so it needs to be in a
concentrated form that can be realistically consumed under those circumstances.

Once they are stable I plan to make them a mushroom and cheese omelet. :rotfl

[Nancy in New York]

What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...

I totally agree with the tiered approach.


One thing that struck me about this, is the fact that many people that come on with an emergency are not equipped with magnesium, calcium, or vitamin D.
Many times they don't even have tums.
We need two protocols, our current one and what?...the optimal one?


We cannot throw our old protocol out the window or we will see many more deaths.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

no But as djarenspace9 said, once the critical symptoms (paralysis, seizures) set in the squirrel is too far gone for merely a dietary change to save it.



I realize that a dietary change is not going to save a squirrel with severe MBD symptoms.

That is not my intent in posting at all.

I am thinking, okay give it a TUMS and oh, maybe it should be given an egg yolk as well.....

As part of emergency treatment, if Vit D deficient, egg yolk could be added to allow emergency uptake of calcium.

Everyone has eggs at all times in fridge.

I was trying to think of a common way to introduce Vitamin D3 into a squirrel's diet in ADDITION to the MBD protocol. Since everyone has eggs in the fridge, once MBD protocol is initiated, egg yolk COULD be recommended as an EMERGENCY treatment.

Once the squirrel eats the yolk, he now has Vitamin D in his body. This squirrel can NOW uptake calcium from the EMERGENCY PROTOCOL ALREADY IN PLACE.

This would be easier, simpler than going to the store and getting Vitamin D3 tablets.

Now egg yolk is not going to cure MBD!! But if squirrel is sick and eating, this WILL allow the emergency protocol already in place to work.

[farrelli]

What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...

I'd be fine with a multi-tier, but I'd still prefer to see the D and mag mentioned in the first tier. Most of the people that I've dealt with have had to go out to get the Tums anyway, and chances are that cal, mag, and D are also sold at that store. They're VERY common because women, in particular, are often advised to take them by their doctors due to the increased risk of osteoporosis. You can usually even find them combined into a single pill (or some variant thereof). If they happen to have cal on hand, I think that it should be advised that they administer it there and then, but that they immediately go out thereafter and get the D and mag. The initial calcium dose will be effective if they already have sufficient D and mag on board, but if they don't, that calcium is doing them no good as is, so they should go out and get what their baby needs. As we all know, MBD is time critical, so they shouldn't be made to feel comfortable about waiting until the next day. Almost everyone that I've dealt with, or have seen dealt with prior to my joining, has been DESPERATE to do anything that they can possibly do to help their baby, so I would assume that they will immediately rush out and get what's necessary. The added step of scraping some D and mag off of a human supplement is neither hard nor onerous, and so far the evidence seems to show it to be quite safe.

Garden71, I didn't say that it was always the case that people whose squirrels succumb to MBD go away, I said that they tend to. From what I've seen, most people showing up for the first time in the Emergency section for MBD have one squirrel under their care that they've rescued or somehow acquired, so if it dies, they have little reason to stay on here. I've even looked into it. If you check the profiles of the people whose squirrels die from MBD, you will see that their activity on the board almost always ceases immediately or shortly after mortality.

[Garden71]

Maybe the reason for them leaving is because they no longer have a little one to care for. :dono

[farrelli]

Maybe the reason for them leaving is because they no longer have a little one to care for. :dono

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[island rehabber]

If you check the profiles of the people whose squirrels die from MBD, you will see that their activity on the board almost always ceases immediately or shortly after mortality.

Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?


It's Your Fault.


It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.

[SammysMom]

:goodpost
Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?


It's Your Fault.


It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.

[Garden71]

Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?


It's Your Fault.


It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.



:goodpost :thumbsup

[Garden71]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Now you are twisting my words :nono
I AM DONE!!!!!

[farrelli]

Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?


It's Your Fault.


It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.



Yes, I agree. What I'm saying is that because people whose squirrels die tend to go away and the ones which survive stay, it selects for a population who would swear by the current protocol. This is known as "confirmation bias" and is something that you must be cognizant of when designing a protocol. I don't know why people seem so angry about this. Really, I'm not looking to offend.

[jbtartell]

I totally agree with the tiered approach.


Me too:thumbsup

[jbtartell]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
yes and it is not what is in place now.. and if I had to run to cvs to get tums, I could do that and would do anything to save my baby, but only if proven to help. which it has but the other is speculation.. I went and bought a vit D lamp from the pet store that I know helpedand would not hurt her, but puting something in her body to try not knowing the outcome and what the dangers are I would not do. I am by no means saying dont change it just saying let it be tested and in my opinion I think it would be a bad idea to start telling emergancys to scrape some off and give it to them.. If the baby dies it is not from our in place treatment it is because there was something else in play, basicaly to far into the mbd.. It is not going to make any difference at that point to add something to it. the damage has been done to their poor little bodies. sorta like with my little sammy.. she had a bad heart and all I was doing was keeping her alive and well eventualy the bad heart got worse and no mater what I done, it did not make it better.. when their organs get so bad no matter what we try they all cant heal they are damaged, I know what I am trying to say and I hope you all understand my rambling.. I am just trying to get it out that as an emergancy mbd treatment telling them to scrape off x amount isnt going to make the emergancy difference in the begining, just in the future after care treatment I would like to see what they come up with for that. and yes the in place protocal is fast and simple as it should be because most of us who have been in this kind of situation are not calm and collect. we are frantic and need our hand held to help us calm down as we try to save our little ones.. so we are not calm enough to get alot of directions to add more to it, plus the baby needs the fastest safest treatment right then.:thumbsup

[CritterMom]

Yes, I agree. What I'm saying is that because people whose squirrels die tend to go away and the ones which survive stay, it selects for a population who would swear by the current protocol. This is known as "confirmation bias" and is something that you must be cognizant of when designing a protocol. I don't know why people seem so angry about this. Really, I'm not looking to offend.


Farelli, you are right about our sampling of people being less than demographically perfect, because, as you point out, many people leave if the outcome of their “case” goes badly, which would indeed skew any results.

That said, you are relatively new here and have only participated in a few MBD cases. Furthermore, you are a wonk. I know a wonk when I see one – I look at one in the mirror daily. When you become interested in something you have to know everything about it, you need to research it, you need to turn it inside out. My mother always told me that I would never be happy until I could take “it” apart and put “it” back together again…which may be why I never got a puppy…:osnap

So bounding off to the store to buy D and magnesium and calcium carbonate and all manner of other supplements is second nature to you – you wanna do the job you need the tools, right? And that is where the part about not having participated in too many threads comes in.

We get teens whose parents are already PO’d about the squirrel and now are being asked to chauffer them to the local health food and Whole Foods…we get people who literally live MILES from any town large enough to have a drugstore…we get people who have almost literally no knowledge or info about nutrition…and we get people who just want an easy, cheap answer. Their eyes glaze over reading anything more than a paragraph, to the point where our existing protocol is too complex. I won’t make any comments about any of these folks because this isn’t The People Board, it is The Squirrel Board and we need a SIMPLE, easy to understand and easily available one stop shop. I am not advocating for no change, but I am saying that if we make this any more complex than it currently is we will lose a lot of people…and their squirrels will pay the highest price.

There is a variable that we can’t figure here: Why do some make it and some don’t? Why does the juvenile that has only been off formula and on high phosphorus food for a couple months die when the adult that has been deprived for YEARS miraculously makes it? Yes, a lot has to do with experience and having the right tools – hand over an MBD squirrel to Jackie and everything she needs is right in her pantry – but that doesn’t account for all the cases. Sometimes they do not get better and there is not a good reason why… Assuming it is because of Vitamin D and magnesium from Day 1 is not necessarily the answer.

[jbtartell]

Farelli, you are right about our sampling of people being less than demographically perfect, because, as you point out, many people leave if the outcome of their “case” goes badly, which would indeed skew any results.

That said, you are relatively new here and have only participated in a few MBD cases. Furthermore, you are a wonk. I know a wonk when I see one – I look at one in the mirror daily. When you become interested in something you have to know everything about it, you need to research it, you need to turn it inside out. My mother always told me that I would never be happy until I could take “it” apart and put “it” back together again…which may be why I never got a puppy…:osnap

So bounding off to the store to buy D and magnesium and calcium carbonate and all manner of other supplements is second nature to you – you wanna do the job you need the tools, right? And that is where the part about not having participated in too many threads comes in.

We get teens whose parents are already PO’d about the squirrel and now are being asked to chauffer them to the local health food and Whole Foods…we get people who literally live MILES from any town large enough to have a drugstore…we get people who have almost literally no knowledge or info about nutrition…and we get people who just want an easy, cheap answer. Their eyes glaze over reading anything more than a paragraph, to the point where our existing protocol is too complex. I won’t make any comments about any of these folks because this isn’t The People Board, it is The Squirrel Board and we need a SIMPLE, easy to understand and easily available one stop shop. I am not advocating for no change, but I am saying that if we make this any more complex than it currently is we will lose a lot of people…and their squirrels will pay the highest price.

There is a variable that we can’t figure here: Why do some make it and some don’t? Why does the juvenile that has only been off formula and on high phosphorus food for a couple months die when the adult that has been deprived for YEARS miraculously makes it? Yes, a lot has to do with experience and having the right tools – hand over an MBD squirrel to Jackie and everything she needs is right in her pantry – but that doesn’t account for all the cases. Sometimes they do not get better and there is not a good reason why… Assuming it is because of Vitamin D and magnesium from Day 1 is not necessarily the answer.
:goodpost :thumbsup

[island rehabber]

Bless you, Critter Mom.....farrelli, somebody finally understands you! :poke :thumbsup

And I represent the MEGO crowd -- My Eyes Glaze Over? That's how I know when things get too complex for the Gen Public, because I AM the Gen Public. :)

[farrelli]

... but puting something in her body to try not knowing the outcome and what the dangers are I would not do...

But that's part of my point, the science already exists, the answers to the question of D tolerances in squirrels is already known, and that's what I hope will form the protocol. The vets just have to submit their answers. From what I have found so far from the work done on using D as a means of rodent eradication, I could give a 1LB squirrel my entire D supplement and only get to the point of slight toxicity. There's a lot of room for someone to screw up. If it's known that D and mag can help and probably would, and there's little to no down side - that someone would have to MASSIVELY screw up in order to cause harm - why would anyone be against it? People on here are constantly dosing meds which can also cause harm, but they do it because the chances of helping far outweigh the chances of harming. So if the vets recommend that D and mag would create a more probable positive outcome, I really hope that we go with it. I just want to save more squirrels, that's why I'm continuing ot present my side despite the strong headwinds.

CrM, yes, I am a research heavy individual. I literally don't like going to a restaurant unless the night before I had a chance to study the menu so that when the time comes I'll be able to make the best decision based on taste, nutrition, and price. But, you don't need hours at a library to scrape off a little D and mag, and these MBD tickets tend to be highly interactive with the caretakers soliciting input at every turn. We could even put it in the protocol that they should go out and get the supplements and that if they are in any way about anything that they should ask. Part of the reason that I persist on this list despite my growing unpopularity with some of the senior members is because I'm a night person and I like to be there when people show up, needing help and are left hanging in the wind because most everyone else is sleeping. Point being, that someone is usually here to help, and though these people might be panicked, they would have to be absolute morons to not follow, say, the following:

1) Go out to the store and buy a calcium supplement, a D3 supplement not exceeding 1000 IU, and a magnesium supplement. The the dosages are clearly marked on the labels. These dosages are IMPORTANT! 2) Grind up the calcium supplement, and from the D supplement, scrape off a tiny bit, no bigger than the size of one or two grains of cooked rice, do the same with magnesium. 3) Mix these together and add them to water or juice and feed them to your squirrel. *Note, the D3 should be given on the first dose alone! Do not provide D3 in following dosages. D3 can be dangerous and can harm your squirrel if this directive is not followed!

I would think that this would be pretty clear and easy to follow. I'm not suggesting that this be the actual text, and should probably be preceded by some instruction to provide cal immediately if they don't have the other two, but a three ingredient recipe is pretty simple and hard to mess up. Even in a panic. And like I said, unless they have some reptile D or some super powerful human D3 supplement the likes of which I've never seen, there is a lot of room to screw up and still be safe. These squirrels are coming in nutritionally deprived and D isn't actually very common in most diets anyway, so I would think that it should be assumed that these guys are missing D almost as much as cal. The only reason why D could be there where cal isn't is because D is fat soluble and what little D they may have been getting would provide them with a paltry store. Moreover, of those which don't have this store, all the calcium in the world wouldn't make a difference. "Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink."

[djarenspace9]

Can't we just come up with a 'best practice' protocol,
with a few concessions for alternate products that are accessible to everyone,
and just leave it at that?

Why beat ourselves (and each other) up trying to cover all possible scenarios,
and account for the actions of people we haven't even met?

Let's face it, we cannot control the actions of those and the outcomes of their squirrels.
It's the most frustrating part of rehabilitating wildlife but something we all need to learn to accept,
so we don't lose our minds and our squirrel-loving friends over it.

:poke

[Kristin Ward]

:goodpost :D
Can't we just come up with a 'best practice' protocol,
with a few concessions for alternate products that are accessible to everyone,
and just leave it at that?

Why beat ourselves (and each other) up trying to cover all possible scenarios,
and account for the actions of people we haven't even met?

Let's face it, we cannot control the actions of those and the outcomes of their squirrels.
It's the most frustrating part of rehabilitating wildlife but something we all need to learn to accept,
so we don't lose our minds and our squirrel-loving friends over it.

:poke

[Kristin Ward]

You have the living proof. Many success stories.:) :goodpost :goodpost

I am not sure any input I have will help or have barrings here,
however...
and although,
I am not a licensed rehabber...and do not even call myself a rehabber..
I have had a couple...MBD sqs that you all know...
and love,
live thru the worst nightmare seizures...
as tough as I am...I have cried and had Leigh on the phone for many hours, many times, as I jack'ed calcium carbonate in MBD seizing sqs..

I know what I have done for years to have worked,
I have never lost a MBD seizing sq, even have released a few...
hate to seem to have a narrow/closed mind..
but I will continue using the means that I have been... clean calcium.
I have my own version of a shake that I use to suppliment as soon as sq has stablized...and I agree..we love Ensure as well.
I am a firm believer in Henry's products to maintain dietary health during and after treatment.

hands on must mean something...
it does to Kelly Brady...
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and vets are not the answer...very few will know half of what the members here do...
I am not dis'en vets.. I love a smart mind that helps critters...
just saying what I have found thru needing vet help in this exact area...MBD.
NONE have been thorough...none claimed to know a dang thing... simply made generic mentions of cal sups...
I will not use a reptile sup .....too many reasons not too.
Phooey on Rugby's and the likes... 8mg of elemental calcium in 0.3ml..that's a joke...
the fricken sugar would kill the sq thru diabeties if we were able to get enough of these type infant/children's suppliments into our sqs.
did that research already as well...


Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

and yes...rat poison kills sqs, thank you patti...
I can see those threads already..

I venture to say most MBD sqs will be pets of the age of three years and older...or worse still... young sqs that have been feed improper formula or weaned early...

I have read/researched til my eyes puked blood... for years now...
there are dangers associated with this suggested change..
and I honestly do not see where a change is needed...
but I am not medical or brilliant...and will be lurking and hoping that a good concrete, complete with evidence, answer is found...


the MBD protocool does NOT KILL SQS>>>
...bad diet and no research does.

bless the little souls that have suffered this...
and thanks to the people who will research this...

[island rehabber]

We will be re-publishing the MBD Emergency Treatment with several new elements based on all of your input as well as that of other experts. We want it accurate, we want it factual, and we want it EASY and safe. This cannot and will not be accomplished in five minutes or even five days.

[jbtartell]

I agree to the last 2 posts together.:thumbsup

[jbtartell]

Farrelli has made his/her point. Everyone just needs to ignore Farrelli's future posts. It seems as if Farrelli will never give up and has a need to be in control. This is my two cents worth.

Sorry, I am not expert in this field. Thanks for the MBD protocal we have in place and will keep a hard copy in my paper files for squirrels. Best of luck to all.
:thankyou :thumbsup :wahoo :peace

[stepnstone]

Farrelli has made his/her point. Everyone just needs to ignore Farrelli's future posts. It seems as if Farrelli will never give up and has a need to be in control. This is my two cents worth.
Sorry, I am not expert in this field. Thanks for the MBD protocal we have in place and will keep a hard copy in my paper files for squirrels. Best of luck to all.

Thank you, jfischer! I've stayed out of this discussion as I'm not one to climb on a bandwagon and argue
about where to sit, and I'll never saw on a branch that supports me unless I'm being hung from it!

My Annie is a TSB, MBD protocol success story period! If I could change anything it would simply be
to have found TSB before I lost her sibling.

[Nancy in New York]

I'm not one to climb on a bandwagon and argue
about where to sit, and I'll never saw on a branch that supports me unless I'm being hung from it!


step.....you have such a way with words,
always simply perfect!!!! :Love_Icon

[SammysMom]

step.....you have such a way with words,
always simply perfect!!!! :Love_Icon
I will use that "not cutting the branch that supports me..." line in the future if it is okay with you! I absolutely LOVE that!:grouphug

[jbtartell]

You all are too funny:rotfl and I just cant beleive this, that is all I can say now about the whole thing.. unbelievable..:shakehead but on a better thought look at all the wonderful babies that have been saved and are here and it is looking better for Kim and her Rocky.. soo maybe soon Rocky can be added to that list.:wahoo :Love_Icon

[Loopy Squirrel]

Talked to my vet today about MBD and Rory and I told him about this discussion on the board. He said that he wouldn't be against giving an initial dose of Vit D for the emergency protocol and that it was reasonable to assume the squirrel could be deficient due to its current diet even though Vit D is a fat soluble vitamin, however, the problem is dosing. He was aware that it can be toxic and he'd have to do some research to find a safe dosage. I didn't go over every detail of the protocol w/ him but he thought the board has a reasonable start to treatment.

[jbtartell]

Great job! getting as much research as we can it great..:thumbsup

[island rehabber]

Good info, Loopy. Toxicity has been our main concern in discussion here behind the scenes, as it appears to be very difficult now to find D or D3 in anything but very large doses.

[jbtartell]

Wowww this is sooo indept to get the dosage.. I love to see everyone working together..:thumbsup :bowdown

[farrelli]

Talked to my vet today about MBD and Rory and I told him about this discussion on the board. He said that he wouldn't be against giving an initial dose of Vit D for the emergency protocol and that it was reasonable to assume the squirrel could be deficient due to its current diet even though Vit D is a fat soluble vitamin, however, the problem is dosing. He was aware that it can be toxic and he'd have to do some research to find a safe dosage. I didn't go over every detail of the protocol w/ him but he thought the board has a reasonable start to treatment.

Thanks Loopy! I'm sure that this is going to save a lot more squirrels!
:thankyou

[Nancy in New York]

And like I said, unless they have some reptile D or some super powerful human D3 supplement the likes of which I've never seen, there is a lot of room to screw up and still be safe. "



So in your opinion, you would NOT use reptile D or you would?

Just for everyones information, we have been looking into the controversy of Vit. D for close to a year now.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32994

We are not scientists and must defer to the "experts".
However many of the experts disagree with the amount or even the necessity thus making it impossible to accurately change the protocol, if
it is deemed necessary.

Look it is an easy fix to add the D. BUT when, how, why, and how much is the question. And keep in mind there are potential risks, and who our typical poster is.


We have members who have used the existing protocol with great success, I dare say, close to 100% survival.

Then there was something posted about Flukers and another reptile supplement with Vitamin D which seemed to cause somewhat of an uproar.
AND which is it suppose to be, D, or D3 that we are concerned about?

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33861&highlight=Flukers

We are trying to put together something that will not be detremental to the squirrels, yet be beneficial to all.

I hope someone can come up with a doseage for a 150 gram flyer and a 3 lb. fox squirrel, because I don't think a sliver of this and a splash of that will do it. MBD comes in all shapes and sizes.

[farrelli]

So in your opinion, you would NOT use reptile D or you would?

You're soliciting my input? Well, seeing that you ask... I know nothing of reptile D other than what one poster had stated about it. Apparently it is a very high dosage, so I would NOT. I have been advocating a human D3 supplement the entire time and I have never recommended using squirrels as guinea pigs in all of this. I have remained civil and have never recommended anything other than a scientific approach guided by squirrel knowledgeable vets, so I take offense to your line, "And keep in mind there are potential risks, and who our typical poster is." I'm not some wackjob or witchdoctor, I'm recommending a medically sound, science-based approach in an effort to save more squirrels.

So far, all the science indicates that D is necessary for calcium absorption and that without it, the current protocol's effectiveness would be hit and miss and totally dependent on random chance of a squirrel having enough D to make use of it. Moreover, common sense would indicate that nutritionally deprived squirrels will almost certainly also be D deprived, something which was supported by Loopy's vet. As such, for the calcium of the protocol to be as effective and life saving as possible, D is necessary (which is most commonly available in the form of D3, which is the safest form). I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but it seemed to be the case given your previous line, "Once again a gentle reminder, folks: both Dr Emerson and Dr Pilny, who are squirrel vets, recommend D3, not D." So it would seem that we have heard from three squirrel knowledgeable vets indicating that the addition of a D3 supplement would create a more effective protocol. Is this not the case? If so, the only issue would be safe dosing.

I have been advocating that we ask this of the vets which are apparently being consulted about this, and thankfully, Loopy is on the case. From what I've been able to discern from the work I've found on using D3 as a means to eradicate rodents, I could give a 1LB squirrel my entire D3 pill that I take every day and only reach the level of slight toxicity, and would have to give four to kill. I have not recommended that we just make an assumption about this, I could be wrong, the documentation that I've found on it could be wrong, I have recommended that we confirm toxicity levels with a vet. But if it is the case that it would indeed be unlikely to harm a squirrel with the addition of D3 to the protocol, and that by doing so there is an increased (and I would argue greatly increased) chance of helping the squirrels which constantly come in with MBD, that we should do that.

[Nancy in New York]

You're soliciting my input? Well, seeing that you ask... I know nothing of reptile D other than what one poster had stated about it. Apparently it is a very high dosage, so I would NOT. I have been advocating a human D3 supplement the entire time and I have never recommended using squirrels as guinea pigs in all of this. I have remained civil and have never recommended anything other than a scientific approach guided by squirrel knowledgeable vets, so I take offense to your line, "And keep in mind there are potential risks, and who our typical poster is." I'm not some wackjob or witchdoctor, I'm recommending a medically sound, science-based approach in an effort to save more squirrels.

So far, all the science indicates that D is necessary for calcium absorption and that without it, the current protocol's effectiveness would be hit and miss and totally dependent on random chance of a squirrel having enough D to make use of it. Moreover, common sense would indicate that nutritionally deprived squirrels will almost certainly also be D deprived, something which was supported by Loopy's vet. As such, for the calcium of the protocol to be as effective and life saving as possible, D is necessary (which is most commonly available in the form of D3, which is the safest form). I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but it seemed to be the case given your previous line, "Once again a gentle reminder, folks: both Dr Emerson and Dr Pilny, who are squirrel vets, recommend D3, not D." So it would seem that we have heard from three squirrel knowledgeable vets indicating that the addition of a D3 supplement would create a more effective protocol. Is this not the case? If so, the only issue would be safe dosing.

I have been advocating that we ask this of the vets which are apparently being consulted about this, and thankfully, Loopy is on the case. From what I've been able to discern from the work I've found on using D3 as a means to eradicate rodents, I could give a 1LB squirrel my entire D3 pill that I take every day and only reach the level of slight toxicity, and would have to give four to kill. I have not recommended that we just make an assumption about this, I could be wrong, the documentation that I've found on it could be wrong, I have recommended that we confirm toxicity levels with a vet. But if it is the case that it would indeed be unlikely to harm a squirrel with the addition of D3 to the protocol, and that by doing so there is an increased (and I would argue greatly increased) chance of helping the squirrels which constantly come in with MBD, that we should do that.

Your line was confusing about the reptile calcium, so I asked a question, no hidden agenda. I even put a link to a thread where Dr. E recommended reptile supplements. Now by your answer, I see that two great minds can differ.

By typical poster I simply meant the one that comes on with the any squirrel in crisis, and many who have never been on a forum. No disrespect to any members.
I was a first time poster years ago, and I know the angst in my heart and the directions I was told to follow and some were confusing.

My point in this post is to let you know that this has been a work in progress for some time, with differing views from the experts.

That's all.

[farrelli]

Your line was confusing about the reptile calcium, so I asked a question, no hidden agenda. I even put a link to a thread where Dr. E recommended reptile supplements.

Well, he could be right. I should look into it. I just considered it to be a very marginal issue in all of this because in all likelihood, most people won't be using that. And if there is ANY question about it, I think that we could easily do away with any gambling on the matter by advising against it. D3 is super cheap and it should not be an impediment to simply ask someone to go out and get some. He didn't have any recommendations against D3, did he? If all the vets are saying that D3 is good but that there is controversy over reptile D, just advise against the reptile D. That would seem to be the easiest answer to me.


By typical poster I simply meant the one that comes on with the any squirrel in crisis, and many who have never been on a forum. No disrespect to any members.

Sorry, my mistake. Clearly there has been more than a bit of piling on of late. :)

[farrelli]

I took a quick peak at those two links and if this is what is meant by "reptile calcium", it could be just fine. I got the impression from one other poster here that it was a highly concentrated source of D, but it appears that it is D3 and not that concentrated. The Flukers product is 100,000 IU per POUND and the Nutrobal product recommended by the vet is also D3 and 150 IU per gram. So, it would seem that they are not super concentrated.

However, I think that reptile D should still be avoided. It would be easiest to advise that someone go out and get a 1000 IU D3 supplement, which seems to be the most common dosage, so that we can properly advise exactly how much to give. It would remove a lot of guess work. We can tell them to scape of something like the size of a grain of cooked rice, and that would give them some D to utilize the calcium, but as far as I've been able to figure out from the pesticide work, would be a LONG way from anything even resembling toxicity.

[jbtartell]

Your line was confusing about the reptile calcium, so I asked a question, no hidden agenda. I even put a link to a thread where Dr. E recommended reptile supplements. Now by your answer, I see that two great minds can differ.

By typical poster I simply meant the one that comes on with the any squirrel in crisis, and many who have never been on a forum. No disrespect to any members.
I was a first time poster years ago, and I know the angst in my heart and the directions I was told to follow and some were confusing.

My point in this post is to let you know that this has been a work in progress for some time, with differing views from the experts.

That's all.

Nancy, I have used the flukers calcium vita d3 powder before.. it was recomended to me by a vet. I would just sprinkle some on her food just to be sure she was getting her calcium.. but when they wont eat what do you do.. it did not hurt her and she never got mbd again but it was mainly her diet change and I just sprinkled it on her favorites so I knew she got it.. lol but it was recomended as prevention not a cure, the cure was the MBD protocal..

[island rehabber]

To further complicate an already complicated matter, we found out to our disappointment that it was not possible to get Nutrobal in the USA. THAT would have made things much easier....:shakehead

[Nancy in New York]

See this is where I get confused. I did buy what was recommended by Dr. E. only the version that we can get here in the states. Then I read something else advising not to supplement with reptile calcium with D3, so I discontinued.
Knock wood I have never had an MBD squirrel. I sometimes supplement when they become picky eaters.

And when people say to sprinkle, what is a sprinkle? When I use grated cheese, I sprinkle. When my husband uses it, he takes the top off, and still calls it a sprinkle.....:rotfl

We need a dose for the flyers right on up to the 3 lb. foxers....so what's the dose?:dono


Just a little edit here. Yes thank you Loopy for asking the vet!
Now if he can give us a safe dose.....:dono

[jbtartell]

I was told just a pinch in my figertips.. but as I said it was to prevent not cure.. but I am sure it might would help with no other options?? what are your thoughts? I am confused..:dono

[Nancy in New York]

I was told just a pinch in my figertips.. but as I said it was to prevent not cure.. but I am sure it might would help with no other options?? what are your thoughts? I am confused..:dono

Knock wood, as I said I only get healthy squirrels, never had a case of MBD.
I go by what the experts say.....whoever they are. Because I will tell you right now, the experts can become confused as well.
Even my vet consults Dr. Lightfoot sometimes about squirrels, and Dr. Lightfoot consults her about Amazon parrots.
My point being, that a great vet still does not know all of the answers.

[Nancy in New York]

On a side note. I asked Loopy yesterday how she is treating Rory her MBD squirrel. She is using our present protocol.
NOT to say that it may not need tweeking, I don't know..........just saying that Rory has problems and he is still with us. Thank you God.:)

[IrishHarps]

For prevention purposes only, I use the reptile calcium powder with D3 - I just throw one tablespoon of it in with a bag of kibble and shake it up, and then leave it out as a supplement to Momo's daily diet of veg/protein/yogurt/fruit. She is a flyer. So far very healthy :)

Anyhoo, that is what the "sprinkle" of calcium means to me.

[Loopy Squirrel]

The only dose I have ever seen is listed in my Exotic Animal Formulary and it list Vit D 200-400IU/kg SC, IM. This is a rodent dose and it is listed for all species. It does not say for what use, how often, or for how long. I have no idea if this is of any help, just letting you know it is listed as a miscellaneous agent used in rodents.

[Itchiku's dad]

This is from what I found while doing a bit of research last year.


This is what caught my attention. " Fluker's claim that it's supplement has 100,000 IU of D3 per pound of calcium carbonate. My Exo Terra D3 says 14,740 IU/lb That's one hell of a difference.

O.K, so going with those calculations nutrobal sits somewhere around 68.181 IU/lb but I'm not sure. would need someone to confirm this. Looking at the other calcium d3 supplements they seem to be between 10.000-20.000 IU/lb.

[Runestonez]

The problem with the reptile vitamins and supplements is they smell/taste crappy!
I have a girl here that REFUSES to eat anything I really want her to(no Henrys, no rodent block...NOTHING!!)...I was pulling out my freakin hair since she came to me with severe MBD!
I noticed she was looking tired and was more lethargic...so I was getting a bit desperate.

I decided to half ass it nothing ventured...etc...
So...as a treat cause she doesn't know the difference...I bought a roll of Tums...and a bottle of the childrens Vit D3 drops that you see in commercials. (you hide a drop on their food and they eat it...ta da)
So what I have been doing is tipping the bottle (it is an oil)and getting a very light coating on my finger...then tapping the top of the Tums tablet(it is absorbed in)...then I cut the tablet in 4 peices and she gets a quarter piece a day as a treat.

As far as I can tell the drops have no taste
Each drop is 10mcg/400UI
Anywho...long story shorter...it has worked really well for me...
IF I were to dilute it further for oral dosing...assuming that one drop is about .10cc...I would probably dilute it with .90cc almond oil and dose with .10cc for your average 400g squirrel. (I would break it down further for the smaller guys but it seems most MBD's are bigger kids.)

[farrelli]

The only dose I have ever seen is listed in my Exotic Animal Formulary and it list Vit D 200-400IU/kg SC, IM. This is a rodent dose and it is listed for all species. It does not say for what use, how often, or for how long. I have no idea if this is of any help, just letting you know it is listed as a miscellaneous agent used in rodents.

Well, that would line up with what I've been finding and my guestimate of dosing a scraping from a 1000 IU tablet about the size of a grain of rice (based on the tiny pill that I always see regardless of the brand) for a 1.5 LB squirrel. In any event, even if size varies, it's about a quarter of a 1000 IU tab, or a bit less. Because it's fat soluble and stays on board, I would think that it should be a one time dose.

From what I've been seeing, you'd need a LOT more than that to reach toxic levels, but I wish that the vets would chime in. I know that your vet will be weighing in, but can we get a second opinion? Nothing against your vet, it's just better safe than sorry if possible.

Isn't Little Red a vet? I think I saw that somewhere but that she's away, but does anyone know when?

[Loopy Squirrel]

Getting my vet to get the research done will be like pulling teeth. He's really busy and I know he has a tendency to forget about things so I wouldn't wait on him. He's a great guy but just has a lot on his plate. I was surprised he even gave me his input the other day.

[Nancy in New York]

Getting my vet to get the research done will be like pulling teeth. He's really busy and I know he has a tendency to forget about things so I wouldn't wait on him. He's a great guy but just has a lot on his plate. I was surprised he even gave me his input the other day.

Oh Loopy, I swear I understand. I realize this is true with most vets. They really can't do research when it is so difficult to research anything about a squirrel. There just aren't that many cases documented.

Thank you for asking him his opinion, much appreciated.