Rat Poisoned Squirrel!

[daniellenc]

One of my neighbors squirrels just ate rat poisoning- crawled right in the rat box and went to town. My son saw her go in and nudged the box to scare her out but it was too late she had a huge chunk. I tried to grab her but she was already up the tree so i squirted her with the hose hoping she'd drop it- no dice it is eaten. I have read activated charcoal and vitamin K- I have both but how much do I administer and what are the odds of it working??

And now mine will not be getting out ever btw:soapbox

[mdyoung216]

If the person is going to put out rat poison blocks then need to use the right bait station. Those have metal rods that the bait slides on that keeps the rats from running off with the bait.

[Cleo_13]

I don't know how to help the squirrel who already ate the poison, but if this happened once, it can happen again. Can you see if you can get whoever put the poison out to remove it? Otherwise, more squirrels will be in danger. (I also wish it would be removed for the rat's sake- from what I hear, poisoning is a really painful way to go).

[daniellenc]

These aren't traps we have control over- we live in a neighborhood where the home owners association has actually screwed the boxes into the ground somehow:( I just spent the last 2 hours blocking all the holes since we can't remove the boxes and am probably awaiting some sort of fine:D :osnap We have tried to trap these guys but only got 1 of her 3- the other two are MIA. At nightfall they will go to their nesting box and we can safely trap them all at that time, but I need more info on dosing K1 in a squirrel. It is too late for charcoal apparently and while I have the K1 and syringes to dose I have no clue how much per squirrel- she's treating all three since we don't know which one ate it:( I have read thanks to Nanci treatment will be twice a day for 4-6 weeks oy and that won't prevent any neurological side effects even if the one makes it:( Anyone have a way to get me a K1 dosage on a 300+gram squirrel??

[mdyoung216]

These aren't traps we have control over- we live in a neighborhood where the home owners association has actually screwed the boxes into the ground somehow:( I just spent the last 2 hours blocking all the holes since we can't remove the boxes and am probably awaiting some sort of fine:D :osnap

If the bait boxes are Protecta brand, I can give or send you a key to open them if you want to remove the bait. I live in Baltimore County, you near there?

[SammysMom]

You Rock MD!!!:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

If the bait boxes are Protecta brand, I can give or send you a key to open them if you want to remove the bait. I live in Baltimore County, you near there?

[Jackie in Tampa]

what is the poison? warafin?
I am searching dose info...
hard to find rat dose

[mdyoung216]

If it's those green blocks, it probably either diphacinone or bromadiolone.

[daniellenc]

See Jackie that's the other major problem....we don't know the exact poison they use in their bait boxes just know it's blue and granular looking. I looked online but quite a few are blue and we called our rodent company but no one has called back yet. I called my vet and she says to treat like an anticoagulant because most are- she won't do blood work on the squirrel for my neighbor even if i do the blood draw here and bring the sample:( This isn't one of mine and I am losing my mind here:soapbox

and my dumb butt wanted to let mine out to roam today:poke yeah I'm stupid what can I say:(

We will get an exact weight tonight after capture, but they all are over 350 grams as of 2 weeks ago when she allowed them out- too much K1 will kill so hopefully we can get accurate weights on all three since they are very wild at this point.

[Margie]

According to Kirk and Bistner's Handbook of Veterinary Procedures and Emergency Treatment give whole blood transfusions (probably not an option) and administer IV a stable infusion of Vitamin K1, in dextrose, 5 %. Dosage ranges from 10 mg to 25 mg. Repeat 2 to 10 mg every 12 hours for 3 to 4 days and then use oral vitamin K for 5 days. Death by Warfarin takes 1 to 10 days. Since a squirrel is so small use the low dosage.

[Margie]

I found some more info in Merck's Manual on dosage. Vitamin K1 .25-2.5 mg/kg given SC with the smallest needle possible in several locations to speed absorption. Again it doesn't differentiate dosages between species so go with the lowest. Also says after the first day you can switch to oral vitamin K3 if responding to treatment.

[daniellenc]

Well still no squirrel.....not for lack of trying and trying, but they are blocked in the nest box that is nailed into the tree and can not be removed unless the door to said box is open. We have tried nuts in a bag over the hole- no squirrel fell for that, we have grabbed, and flailed, and nearly had our faces taken off, and are losing this battle miserably. I know by morning it is too late, but capturing 2 loose squirrels is nearly impossible in the dark. No vet will see them and while I can give an injection I need a dosage in cc's and the squirrels to cooperate with their capture. I have also read oral dosages must continue for 4-6 weeks??

[daniellenc]

Margie that I can work with I have insulin needles here though are those small enough?? Have a NICU nurse friend who can get me a pediatric needle but not sure if those are any smaller?

[Margie]

Insulin needles are about the smallest you can get. What is the concentration of the Vitamin K you have mg/ml?

[daniellenc]

Gave the bottle to my neighbor will have to check in the morning but they are gel tabs. Figure we can pierce them and squeeze it out which is better than crushing and dissolving, but I am going nuts tomorrow that poor baby may be dead. I just don't even see how it squeezed it's way into that box. It is the kind where the rat would climb in and have to actually turn a corner to get to the bait......supposed to be impossible for a squirrel to get into.:thinking

[mdyoung216]

This what the box looks like?

http://tinyurl.com/8mk3tob

If it does, they shouldn't have put loose poison in there. Should used blocks with the metal rods.

[daniellenc]

Yes it is very similar to that one and the same color stuff inside.

[rocky63]

Go to home depot and buy cans of Great stuff. It is spray foam insulation in a can. follow the direction on the can on how to use and fill the holes on the traps.!!! this is the best way to stop squirrels from entering the trap :D

[CrazySquirrelLady]

you could smash em with a sledgehammer, but not as quiet... lol

blow em up with M80s..

[Margie]

The Vitamin K1 should be a bottle of liquid to be injectable. I don't know how you will get the contents of a gel capsule into a syringe and it is usually in a form that is not absorbable in SQ form. It will probably just sit under the skin and form a painful lump.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

The Vitamin K1 should be a bottle of liquid to be injectable. I don't know how you will get the contents of a gel capsule into a syringe and it is usually in a form that is not absorbable in SQ form. It will probably just sit under the skin and form a painful lump.
wouldn't think you would need a prescription for injectable Vitmin K, ask pharmacist for it.

also can find it in newborn nursery at hospital, Vitamin K baby's first shot.

did you know Codeine laced cough syrup is legal here without prescription? you have to ask pharmacist... amazing how that works. illegal to have codeine, but not in cough syrup.. lol. what a country we live in.

[stepnstone]

Reading this just makes me ill, poor baby...:shakehead

[jfischer]

I got this phone number from a TBS Member some Syears ago. You could try calling it. Had other information, but can't find it. Still looking.

Pet Posion Control - 1-800-213-6680.

[Garden71]

Go to home depot and buy cans of Great stuff. It is spray foam insulation in a can. follow the direction on the can on how to use and fill the holes on the traps.!!! this is the best way to stop squirrels from entering the trap :D

:goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost

[daniellenc]

I love great stuff used it on many home made vivariums in my reptile days...bet I have some in the shed, but the problem is that would be a permanent seal and I think my HOA would charge me for the removal and replacement of every box here....which would be 12, lol.

The vitamin K I have specifically says K1- it's from GNC. Are we sure it's not the right stuff??

I told my neighbor she should wait to let them venture out, but she worked at a rehab facility for years and they release even younger than she did. I raised my guys very differently than she did- she went to school to work with animals and does things her way- I have no control over her squirrels or how she handles their exit to the wild. It's just one of those things I can only sit back and help when she needs it like now. I have been feeding them HHB's instead of her block though since they've been out, but I can't go squirrel napping them to do it my way.....heck I couldn't if I wanted to wild squirrels don't exactly make catching them easy unless they are hurt or sick.

[Jackie in Tampa]

agree with Margie. if you do not have injectable, do not inject it.
Is the sqs bleeding out? then doubt he ate rat poison.
Sub Q with saline and oral hydration..
go to the vet.

[Jackie in Tampa]

Table 1
Values for Warfarin ToxicitySpeciesToxic Level Single DoseToxic Level Repeated DosesRats50 - 100 mg/kg1 mg/kg x 5 daysDogs5 - 50 mg/kg5 mg/kg x 5 - 15 daysCats5 - 50 mg/kg1 mg/kg x 5 daysSwine*3 mg/kg0.05 mg/kg x 7 daysRuminants 200 mg/kg x 12 daysPoultry50% of BW of feed containing 0.1 mg/kg

[Garden71]

Do let them know your doing it. My condo had put a rat trap out and we don't have rats:dono :soapbox . So the next day puff they disappeared :dono .
They can point fingers all they want but can't prove it. :thumbsup

[Jackie in Tampa]

Absorption of warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()) is rather complete but occurs slowly, with peak plasma levels seen after 6 - 12 hours. Most of the warfarin is bound to plasma protein, but high concentrations are also found in the liver, spleen, and kidney.
Metabolism of the coumarins occurs in the liver and involves mixed function oxidase enzymes. Inactive hydroxylated metabolites have been found in the urine. The acute toxicity of the coumarins is reduced when phenobarbital (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=phenobarbital';displayProd()) has been given to induce the hepatic enzymes. Vitamin K does not appear to enhance the rate of disappearance of the anticoagulant.
The anticoagulant rodenticides are eliminated at various rates, depending on the compound and the amount ingested. The compound may accumulate with time, as in the case of an animal ingesting small amounts over several days. The half-life of warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()) in dog plasma is 14.5 hours. The half-life of diphacinone is 15 - 20 days in humans, which compares to a mean of 48 hours for warfarin in humans. The half-life of brodifacoum is yet to be reliably determined, but it is assumed to be at least as bioaccumulative and persistent as diphacinone. These differences in residual half-lives have very important implications when considering treatment of poisoned animals.Predisposing Factors

Animals may be of increased susceptibility due to various factors such as: 1) a high dietary fat intake [fatty acids displace the plasma protein bound anticoagulant increasing the free (active) fraction in the plasma so that more reaches the liver]; 2) prolonged oral antibiotic therapy (decreased synthesis of vitamin K by intestinal bacteria); 3) biliary obstruction and liver disease which presumably reduces metabolism and excretion of the anticoagulant and reduces clotting factor synthesizing ability.
Plasma proteins (albumin) play a significant role in the patient's response to an anticoagulant. Warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()) is over 90% bound in canine plasma. The plasma proteins therefore constitute a great reservoir for warfarin. Warfarin cannot be excreted as long as it is in the tissues or bound to plasma proteins.
Like fatty acids, certain drugs displace warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()) from the albumin and shunt it down a concentration gradient into the tissue (liver), unless the tissue is already equilibrated, then the warfarin will be free to be excreted in the urine. Drugs known to displace warfarin from albumin in the blood, include oxyphenbutazone (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=oxyphenbutazone';displayProd()), phenylbutazone (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=phenylbutazone';displayProd()) (also decreases platelet integrity), diphenylhydantoin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=phenytoin';displayProd()), sulfonamides, and adrenocorticosteroids.
Uremia also causes decreased binding of the anticoagulant to serum proteins and may slow excretion of the unbound fraction.
Aspirin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=aspirin';displayProd()) interferes with platelet function. Other drugs generally contraindicated include promazine-type tranquilizers, local anesthetics, nitrofurans, antihistamines, anabolic steroids and epinephrine (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=epinephrine';displayProd()).
Although evidence is very limited, there is some reason for concern regarding transmission of anticoagulants to young, perhaps via the milk. Because neonates tend to be hypoprothrombinemic, they may be particularly susceptible to anticoagulant exposure.Mechanism of Action

Interference with normal blood clotting as a result of reduced concentrations of clotting factors II (prothrombin), VII, IX, and X, due to competitive inhibition of the enzyme vitamin K epoxide-reductase. (See the section on Coagulation of Blood and the Function of Vitamin K (http://www.ivis.org/advances/Beasley/Cpt20/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1#vitamink).)
There does not appear to be any direct hepatotoxic damage from warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()). Hypoxia and anemia, however, can lead to hepatic necrosis.Signs

Although signs have been observed within 1 day of ingestion, there is usually a lag period of 3 - 5 days between exposure and appearance of clinical signs.
Onset of death may be acute, without the presence of other clinical signs. This is most common when hemorrhage occurs in the cerebral vasculature, abdominal cavity, pericardial sac, mediastinum, or thorax. Outward signs of hemorrhage may not exist in these instances.
More often, the animal may be initially only depressed, anorexic, and anemic. Pale mucous membranes, dyspnea (due to hypoxia or pulmonary hemorrhage), hematemesis, epistaxis, and bloody or "tarry" feces are common soon thereafter. The animal may be febrile and display nonlocalized abdominal pain. Scleral, intraocular, conjunctival, nasal, oral, urogenital, and subcutaneous hemorrhage may be noted.
Staggering or ataxia can be observed with severe blood loss.
The heart rate may be irregular, and the pulse weak.
Extensive external hematomata may occur at pressure points or traumatized areas.
Swollen, tender joints are common, especially in pigs.
Abortions have been noted in cattle.
Animals experiencing prolonged toxicosis may be icteric from breakdown of impounded blood.Lesions

Generalized hemorrhage, especially in the thoracic or abdominal cavities, mediastinal space, periarticular space, periarticular tissues, subcutaneous tissues, and subdural space. There may also be hemorrhage in the gut.
The heart is often flaccid and hemorrhagic.
Centrilobular hepatic necrosis may result from anemia and hypoxia.Diagnosis

History is very important. Question the owner.
Clinical signs may vary, but there should be an indication of hemorrhage or swellings.
Examine the patient carefully.
Laboratory evaluation of clotting parameters:
An elevated prothrombin time (PT) shows up first (24 - 48 hours postingestion) due to the involvement of factor VII (which has the shortest half-life [6.2 hr] of the K-dependent clotting factors [II, VII, IX, and X]). This is followed soon thereafter by an elevated activated partial thromboplastin time (APTT). Platelet count will generally be in the normal to low-normal range.
Consult your local hospital if you need help. Send in a citrated blood sample (bright blue stopper) from a "normal" dog to help with the interpretation.
Clotting parameter times are suggestive if prolonged beyond 25% of the normal value.
Chemical detection of specific anticoagulants in biological fluids, vomitus, or baits.
Antemortem or postmortem sample of choice is whole blood (refrigerate).
Another postmortem sample of choice is liver. Specimens should be wrapped in foil, well identified, sealed in plastic, and frozen during storage and shipment.

[Jackie in Tampa]

Patient is presented with clinical complications:
Correct low PCV and/or hypovolemia and provide clotting factors as needed using transfusion of fresh whole blood.
Handle affected animals with care; sedate (promazine (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=promazine';displayProd()) contraindicated) if necessary.
10 - 20 ml of fresh, whole blood/kg BW, IV; first 25% of the dose relatively fast, and the rest by slow drip.
Vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) (phytonadione, phylloquinone) is the most effective form of the various forms of the vitamin. It is similar to the natural form of the vitamin and works rapidly (begins to reverse the situation in about 30 minutes provided the animal is not anemic and/or hypoxic). Oral vitamin K (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) is faster acting and more effective than the parenteral form. It is absorbed from the GI tract and transported directly to the liver via the portal vein. It should be given with food to enhance its absorption. Use the oral form unless contraindicated (e.g., concurrent administration of activated charcoal (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=activated_charcoal';displayProd()), GI hemorrhage, severe depression, etc.). When the injectable form is required use the smallest possible needle and carefully wrap the leg to prevent hemorrhage.
Dogs: 3 - 5 mg/kg (lower dose in larger animals), SQ or IM. IV administration may cause anaphylaxis; if you use the IV route, be sure the product is approved for this route and administer over 20 minutes with continuous monitoring; dose may be divided into 2 daily doses if preferred.
Cats: 15 - 25 mg, total dose, SQ or IM.
Recommended oral doses of vitamin K (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) for dogs and cats range from 0.25 - 2.5 mg/kg/day for warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()) toxicosis and 2.5 - 5 mg/kg/day for long-acting rodenticide toxicosis.
Pigs: 2 - 5 mg/kg (lower dose in larger animals), SQ/IM.
Note - Vitamin K3 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=menadione';displayProd()) (menadione sodium bisulfite), feed-grade, should be added to all swine rations at 20 g/ton of feed as a good preventative management tool because of the common idiopathic, vitamin K-responsive coagulopathy of swine.
Horses: Vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) at not over 2 mg/kg, SQ/IM; use aseptic techniques for injection.
Note - Do not use vitamin K3 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=menadione';displayProd()) (menadione) in Equidae. Deaths have occurred from use of injectable menadione at manufacturer's recommended dosages. Mechanism of toxicity is unknown, but acute renal failure is observed.
Ruminants: Vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) at 0.5 - 1.5 mg/kg, SQ/IM, not more than
10 ml/injection site. Vitamin K3 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=menadione';displayProd()) is reportedly of little or no value.
Duration of therapy.
Warfarin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=warfarin_na';displayProd()).
Daily administration is recommended for 10 - 14 days, depending on the amount ingested and severity of the symptomatology.
Bromadiolone.
Daily administration for 21 days.
Diphacinone, brodifacoum (and others).
Suggested daily administration for 30 days.
Follow in 5 - 7 days after end of treatment period with a prothrombin time (in severe cases, very young, or debilitated patients, continued vitamin K (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) therapy may sometimes be necessary).
Pasture and green forages provide some vitamin K (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) and may lessen the need somewhat for prolonged treatment of anticoagulant-exposed herbivores. Note: If patient is symptomatic at presentation, it is usually advisable to use a whole blood transfusion and vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) injectable, the latter, for the first 1 or 2 days of treatment, or until stable.
If dyspnea continues, a thoracic radiograph may be indicated. Thoracentesis to remove extravasated blood may be indicated to save the patient's life, but extreme caution must be exercised to prevent further hemorrhage.
Oxygen may be beneficial in severely dyspneic animals.
Keep patient warm and still until stabilized. Minimal rates of balanced electrolyte solutions may be used if needed for extra fluids and only after sufficient clotting factors (generally whole blood) are on board.
Once stable, the patient can be sent home and dosed with oral form of vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()). Client education is very important to ensure that the medication is continued as directed.
Avoid elective surgery.
Avoid protein bound drugs as much as possible.
Contraindicated drugs during recovery period include corticosteroids, sulfa drugs, antihistamines, phenylbutazone (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=phenylbutazone';displayProd()), epinephrine (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=epinephrine';displayProd()), aspirin (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=aspirin';displayProd()), others (see the section "Predisposing Factors (http://www.ivis.org/advances/Beasley/Cpt20/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1#Predisposing_Factors)").
Owner take-home instructions:
No large volumes of fatty foods (table scraps, etc.).
Restrict exercise for duration of therapy.
Strict attention to daily medication, even if patient looks and acts normal. Clinical relapses have occurred with premature withdrawal of medication.
Patient is presented asymptomatic within several hours of a suspected or confirmed exposure:
Induce emesis if within 3 hours of ingestion with apomorphine (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=apomorphine_hydrochloride';displayP rod()) (dog), syrup of ipecac, or xylazine (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=xylazine';displayProd()) (cat), or 3% H2O2 (either species). Do not induce emesis if patient is depressed or recumbent or if other contraindications are present.
Activated or superactivated charcoal (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=activated_charcoal';displayProd()).
Osmotic cathartic (sorbitol (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=sorbitol';displayProd())). Alternatively, a saline cathartic may be administered after being mixed with at least 5 times as much water. Administer via stomach tube or orally. Effective for as long as bait is in the gut.
Decision to begin vitamin K (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) therapy will depend on the situation, i.e., amount ingested, effectiveness of emesis procedure, time since ingestion. In cases of suspected low dose exposures (i.e., < 1/8 of the LD50), may elect (after emetic and activated charcoal (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=activated_charcoal';displayProd()), etc.) to give an injection of vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()), and send patient home with instructions to observe the animal closely for 10 - 30 days, depending upon the compound involved.
Vitamin K3 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=menadione';displayProd()) has the disadvantage of not being as effective as vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()). Do not use vitamin K3 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=menadione';displayProd()) alone in symptomatic or highly exposed small animals: use vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()).
Adverse effects related to vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) therapy generally stem from IV administration. Anaphylactoid reactions occur quite often, including cutaneous manifestations such as urticaria. Large doses (10 mg/kg) of vitamin K1 (javascript:fileName='http://www.ivis.org/products/product.asp?PN=vitamin_k';displayProd()) have been associated with Heinz body anemia and hemolysis.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Beasley/Cpt20/images/k20.gif Vitamin K1

Prevention

[Jackie in Tampa]

Prevention
Client and pest control operator education. Differential Diagnosis

Poor response to vitamin K1 therapy is helpful in ruling out anticoagulant toxicosis, provided that the animal is not anemic or in liver failure in addition to being poisoned by an anticoagulant.
Autoimmune thrombocytopenia (AITP):
Initial presentation: petechial to ecchymotic hemorrhages on mucous membranes, sclera, skin are characteristic; due to lack of platelets.
Platelet numbers will be low (generally below 20,000) unless there is a functional platelet disorder, then numbers may be normal.
Otterhound, Foxhound, Basset Hound are predisposed.
DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation).
Important to identify a primary disease such as neoplasia, pancreatitis, heat stroke, sepsis, chronic active hepatitis, etc. Involves a careful history and physical workup or necropsy.
Hematology to confirm: AT III, fibrinogen, plasminogen are decreased.
Fibrin degradation products (fibrin split products) are present in blood; kits are available to test in clinics.
Hereditary diseases (not as common).
Von Willebrand's disease.
Hemorrhage is often less severe than with anticoagulant toxicosis.
Deficiency of a key component (von Willebrand factor) of the coagulation factor VIII, which is itself functional. The defect affects platelet function.
Analysis for factor VIII-C and factor VIII-RAg.
Scottish Terriers and Doberman Pinschers are predisposed.
Hemophilia A.
Factor VIII deficiency.
Irish Setter, French Bulldog, Cairn Terrier, Greyhound, Poodles, others.
Intrinsic pathway is defective in coagulation . . elevated APTT.
Liver disease.
All coagulation factors except factor VII are synthesized in the liver.
Severe liver disease usually occurs before coagulation is significantly disrupted. Liver enzymes may indicate damage or, if chronic, may be normal.
Portal hypertension may cause a backup and redistribution of platelets to the spleen, resulting in a deficiency in the circulation.
Lack of bile secretion into the gut. Required for absorption of fat-soluble vitamin K. Biliary function tests indicate obstruction.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I tried to read this, I took my time, it is very complex and from the vet web,
when I do research and find myself lost in the content, that means it is time for a vet.:D I surrender and go!:thumbsup
Had I had a sq here that I thought was poisoned I would have gone immediately..
as for the traps, I am with you...stuff them with steel wool!
and pour human urine on them!

[daniellenc]

Jackie if it were me I'd drive to Florida to get a vet to see them- we're in an illegal State. My vet who I have worked for won't even run the labs if I do blood collections because she uses an outside lab- she can't say it's a dog or cat and would be risking her practice. She loves me, but not that much. It's frustrating because I wouldn't have given up last night, but my neighbor had 4 kids to get in bed and an irritated husband that works out of State and is only home 2 days a week to contend with. My own husband had to cook us dinner, fold 3 loads of laundry, and clean the kitchen because I was trying to help and he worked 13 hours yesterday....imagine his pleasure in serving me because the squirrels were more important:D He's used to my crazy animal antics and knows where he stands against an animal so he complied quietly:D Her husband isn't as pliable she messed up on the training process a decade ago and it's an irreversible condition now:rotfl

If anyone here is close and experienced enough to catch them and get them care I will pay out of pocket, but a blood transfusion is out of the question since we can't do that ourselves. I have been reading articles half the night and all afternoon yesterday- we're not fairing well in our position. I have rags stuffed in every trap around, but the rodent man comes once a week and will simply remove them. We also have a rat problem being so close to the woods, a lake, and a shopping center with yummy dumpsters to dive in. One neighbor already removed my rag from her's but I promptly replaced it last night. She can't win that battle with me and will give up soon, but a squirrel can easily get that rag out if it wants.

There was no reason for the one to go in as it is. They have platforms of food all over- it had to be curious seeing as they look like little nest boxes:( I won't be able to prevent mine from checking them out either honestly. The wilds don't do this so I am perplexed on what my long term solution will be to keep mine safe come spring. I have to hope I get them so fat they simply can't fit in there. IDK any ideas??

[Jackie in Tampa]

yep Fred too, however I do get tired of grilled cheese!:D

Steel wool is not cheap, moth balls spread all around the traps will keep everything away from the traps..that maybe choice, they'll disolve and the smell will still be there..

I say the best deterient is to Chain the neighborhood outside cats to each trap....
then they will be good for something..

[daniellenc]

I have moth balls though not enough for 12 traps and the rodent guy opens and checks each box once a week so even that will get expensive. Our best bet is to contain these guys until spring but my neighbor is not keen on that idea. I have an extra cage right now so I could keep them I suppose except my two and her three do not get along. Mine already see this house as their's and don't take their daily visits very well. Miranda hides and Niko tries to kill them through the cage. Oh yeah and how do I catch 3 wild squirrels?? Seriously thought it would be easier to do yesterday but 3 hours later we managed 1:shakehead . I am off to take my son to school and see if they managed to get out of the nest box cause I know our seal wasn't sturdy and we couldn't drill it in since they were in there.

[daniellenc]

No good news to report. When my neighbor went in yesterday morning to try and snag them they got out. Not sure why she didn't call me to help I am up at 6:(. Rat boxes were still blocked last night and 2 of her's did come back for dinner. The smaller one Katie is MIA and the one we believe got into the box. She is the one who hangs in my yard all day and drives my squirrels nuts. I have grown a bit found of her so I am taking this hard. I have a cage set up with food and water in my backyard with the door open. I am hoping she's alive and comes by today so I can trap her myself. Not sure what else we can do right now and feeling pretty crappy about this.

My neighbor and I even talked about the rat boxes before any of this happened, but concluded the holes were too small for a squirrel to get into. We've never seen a wild go near them and thought they must just know better somehow:(

[CritterMom]

I second what JIT said. Start peeing in a jar and bring that out and pour it over the traps. The rodent guy will not be able to tell so he won't make any changes to the traps but the squirrels sure will. Spray bottles and super soakers will give you distance if it is needed.

[daniellenc]

Seriously squirrels hate the smell of human pee?? Well uh I can do that but lol wow will that be fun to explain if I am caught:D I guess today I'll be filling cups with pee and getting a squirt bottle out- do I spray it in the boxes or on and around??

[Milo's Mom]

Seriously squirrels hate the smell of human pee?? Well uh I can do that but lol wow will that be fun to explain if I am caught:D I guess today I'll be filling cups with pee and getting a squirt bottle out- do I spray it in the boxes or on and around??

Collect as much as possible and douse the boxes, the surrounding ground...cover as much area as possible!

[Garden71]

Maybe he is putting something else in the traps to attact them to it to it :dono

[daniellenc]

Ok I ran outta pee....can't believe I am typing this. I got 4 boxes inside and all around the perimeter. I am currently chugging coffee now for round 2. How often do I need to repeat this process btw??

[rainrshine]

I say the best deterient is to Chain the neighborhood outside cats to each trap....
then they will be good for something..

:jump

[Garden71]

Ok I ran outta pee....can't believe I am typing this. I got 4 boxes inside and all around the perimeter. I am currently chugging coffee now for round 2. How often do I need to repeat this process btw??

You have to repeat every 30min. around the clock...:sanp3 .

Only kidding sorry I could not help it. I would imagine every few days as long as it does not rain :dono . Hope it works and you find the other little one Katie :Love_Icon :grouphug .

[mdyoung216]

Ok I ran outta pee....can't believe I am typing this. I got 4 boxes inside and all around the perimeter. I am currently chugging coffee now for round 2. How often do I need to repeat this process btw??

Have you know everyone in my office is laughing right now. LOL

[CrazySquirrelLady]

Ok I ran outta pee....can't believe I am typing this. I got 4 boxes inside and all around the perimeter. I am currently chugging coffee now for round 2. How often do I need to repeat this process btw??
maybe you can go to the fire dept and get them to pee in something for you... lol

Tell them you need pee to pour on rat traps... :rofl4

[daniellenc]

Lol I feel super naughty doing this but I did manage 3 more boxes and have had enough coffee to keep me up for days. No one has seen me yet that I know and I pray it does not rain anytime soon cause this is slightly gross....I lack the right appendage to pee in bottles effectively:D Did catch little Katie in a tree though so she is alive and the other 2 have visited my yard and severely peeved Niko....I need them to stop visiting the way he screams at them is not okay.

I keep hoping she just shredded it and didn't ingest enough to kill her, but I am probably reaching on that notion:(

[mdyoung216]

I lack the right appendage to pee in bottles effectively:D (

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Girl-Female-Urination-Lavender/dp/B003BEDUS6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1350056915&sr=8-3&keywords=female+urinal

[mdyoung216]

So what coffee goes good with peeing on rat bait stations? Don't use Green Mountain Hazelnut, or it might attract squirrels. LOL

[daniellenc]

Well this is Folgers dark blend and has me shaky which is not helping the collection of urine campaign at all:D

And no urinals for me, lmao can't believe they even have those for us ladies geez, lol

[mdyoung216]

And no urinals for me, lmao can't believe they even have those for us ladies geez, lol

Come on, buy one and then review it on Amazon. LOL

[daniellenc]

Almost tempting, lol but think I'll pass:D I can't even understand making those I wonder if any women buy them and when they would actually use them??

[mdyoung216]

Almost tempting, lol but think I'll pass:D I can't even understand making those I wonder if any women buy them and when they would actually use them??

Winter time, you can write your name in the snow. LOL

[rainrshine]

Maybe you could put a sign in your yard that reads "Free Beer". I'm sure you could get enough male recruits to drink and then go pee where they need to without worrying about collecting anything! Give each one an assigned trap! LOL.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

So what coffee goes good with peeing on rat bait stations? Don't use Green Mountain Hazelnut, or it might attract squirrels. LOL


:rofl4 hahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[daniellenc]

Call this crazy but we have continued to see all 3 squirrels and everyone is seemingly healthy?? Is it possible she shredded it and didn't ingest because everything we can find indicates she'd be deathly ill or worse deceased by now?

[CrazySquirrelLady]

It's a TSB miracle !!! Yippie!

you know Mdyoung 216 offered you the KEY to the trap...

You could just OPEN the traps and take out the poison on the down low........?? thought you might have missed that... sounds easier and they gonna keep putting out poison...

They will just think the rats ate it all and refill it... but you could have the KEY.....

[jfischer]

Clorex would be a good product to use for those Rat Traps. All animals hate the smell of clorex. You could get the cheap kind from the dollar store. Just a suggestion.

[stepnstone]

It's a TSB miracle !!! Yippie!

you know Mdyoung 216 offered you the KEY to the trap...

You could just OPEN the traps and take out the poison on the down low........?? thought you might have missed that... sounds easier and they gonna keep putting out poison...

They will just think the rats ate it all and refill it... but you could have the KEY.....

:goodpost I'd do it!! At least until the sques got to big to get in them.

[Garden71]

:jump :jump :jump :thumbsup

[daniellenc]

I would remove it except the guy comes once a week to open it and replace as needed so I would need to do this weekly. I did order fox urine though Russel suggested that and it's sure going to be easier and less messy:D And clorox is a fabulous idea I have tons of that.....yay fox pee clorox combo is in the works!!

I hope I am right and one of them is not slowly dying but she was here again yesterday wild as ever.

[Nemehoto]

Straight Ammonia usually works as a deterrent as well... You could mix a little in with your collection of peepee and ease up on the coffee a little. :dono

[Garden71]

Straight Ammonia usually works as a deterrent as well... You could mix a little in with your collection of peepee and ease up on the coffee a little. :dono


Sorry to thread jack….
I have been using ammonia by a “have a heart trap” that my neighbor put out it hasn't worked as I had to let a little one out the other day. Next the trap WILL just disappear!!!!!! :dono

[Pointy Tale]

Ammonia, Urine (human and/or dog) do NOT deter rodents (mice, squirrels, rats, chippies) or other critters (skunk, rabbits, groundhogs, small birds). I speak from experience. Do NOT waste your time.

A cat will deter rodents.

Possible ideas for deterring from bait box
—Steel wool (but you’ll get caught)
—Foam insulation (but you’ll get caught)
—Rock over or as close to the Opening of bait trap (it will look natural)
—Check the traps daily and empty the bait (put all bait in a sealed glass jar and dispose of (how I don't know)

Sadly, the only way to stop it would be is if a person’s pet or small got a hold of the poison.

Daniellenc— I hope you can save the ones infected. You’re in my prayers. Takes a lot of dedication and time to fight stupid and you don’t always win. The animal(s) ALWAYS lose. Sad way to die.

[Garden71]

Ammonia, Urine (human and/or dog) do NOT deter rodents (mice, squirrels, rats, chippies) or other critters (skunk, rabbits, groundhogs, small birds). I speak from experience. Do NOT waste your time.

A cat will deter rodents.

Possible ideas for deterring from bait box
—Steel wool (but you’ll get caught)
—Foam insulation (but you’ll get caught)
—Rock over or as close to the Opening of bait trap (it will look natural)
—Check the traps daily and empty the bait (put all bait in a sealed glass jar and dispose of (how I don't know)

Sadly, the only way to stop it would be is if a person’s pet or small got a hold of the poison.

Daniellenc— I hope you can save the ones infected. You’re in my prayers. Takes a lot of dedication and time to fight stupid and you don’t always win. The animal(s) ALWAYS lose. Sad way to die.

:goodpost
Stupid isn't the word I would say it but....I think eveyone knows :soapbox

[Squirrel Girls Mom]

Daniellenc! I just thought of something, looked it up, and found that I am correct. It is against the law in all states to poison game animals. It is a violation of Federal law to use rat poison in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. If the gardner guy is somehow, inadvertantly or not, enabling squirrels to obtain the poison, he is violation of state and federal law(s).

[Nemehoto]

Sorry.... I have used ammonia before and it worked against foxes squirrel coyotes, a few rats and rabbits... I thought it would work but I guess I am wrong... sorry I suggested it.

Any news on the squirrels that may have ingested it?

It's good news to know that it unlawful to poison squirrels.

[Garden71]

Nemehoto the ammonia I used the first time might have worked.:dono This time I used a different brand maybe that's why. :thinking

[daniellenc]

She just left with an HHB hanging out of her mouth and still seems normal, and the other 2 were here for lunch looking fine, eating, playing, and driving my two nuts. These traps have keys and get replaced weekly or at least checked so removing it would be futile and I would get caught. I am already getting flack for the pee and they don't even know it was pee just that I was doing something suspicious by the traps- I said I was spraying for ants, lol.

I read the law, but rat traps will be exempt sadly in this case because you need intent for it to be illegal. Their not there to intentionally kill squirrels and we (our community) employs them to keep them here so they are not responsible......technically I would be:( Without intent and ownership of the poison there is nothing I can legally argue and I can't prove she ate it. I saw it with my own eyes just isn't enough, and even if she dies and I could find someone to do an autopsy I couldn't prove she ate poison out of our traps. So annoying:(

[Garden71]

Daniellenc! I just thought of something, looked it up, and found that I am correct. It is against the law in all states to poison game animals. It is a violation of Federal law to use rat poison in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. If the gardner guy is somehow, inadvertantly or not, enabling squirrels to obtain the poison, he is violation of state and federal law(s).

:goodpost

Thank you.
Good to know. :thumbsup

[Margie]

What about putting some cat fur around the traps? If you don't have any cats, you could probably get some fur from the local vets and groomers.

[daniellenc]

I have a Maine Coon....she is pretty furry, lol think it will help??

[SammysMom]

I have a petsitting customer who was setting rat traps. She put overturned milk crates over them so that nobody except the rats could or would go into them. If you advise them that you're concerned about your pets having access to them, it might help. Are the things something that would fit under a milk crate?

[daniellenc]

The issue is people besides me actually want the traps here- the rats are abundant, lol and while I don't like them either I want the babies safe for another few months. If I put something noticeable over them people will just remove them:(