URGENT request for help: Lethargic 2 yr old grey

[Tara]

I've had Little Girl since she was a couple of weeks old. She has had lethargic spells for as long as I can remember. I went back and found posts from 4/22/11, 7/19/11, 8/2/11, 9/13/11 and she's done this many more times that weren't even posted on TSB. She's been treated before with SMZ, Metro, Capstar, Tramadol for pain, maybe others...I've treated her with calcium for MBD, even though I don't think that's what it is...

For the past week, she will be VERY lethargic for an entire day, and fine the next. This has been happening every other day for a week. I think she needs an antibiotic to knock this out-at least for now.
The only difference between her past spells and this one is that she has very watery eyes. It almost looks as if she's crying. She still has the light whistle from her nose too.
I have a few different meds leftover from the past, but our refrigerator went out for an entire week and I'm not sure if it's usable.
Someone please give me some advice. I have to do something to help my LG. :(

[skarabrae]

Very strange... hopefully an expert will be on soon to help you puzzle this out!

:grouphug

[Milo's Mom]

How are her teeth? Do you have to trim them?

[skarabrae]

How are her teeth? Do you have to trim them?

Good point! Her teeth could have punctured through the roof of her mouth causing the whistle... and could potentially be infected.

Any discharge from her nose at all?

[Jackie in Tampa]

Tara...what makes you think she needs ABs?
lethargy?
Does she eat HHBs?
gosh mine just arrived and my kids were so happy...they love them..
thank goodness..
what would she have infection from?

[Tara]

Every time she's gotten sick we've given her abs and it's gotten better in the past. This time, we did not give anything and it's been every other day for almost a week and she's still lethargic.
I don't know what else to do. I thought maybe she was getting a bad pecan or something, but I haven't given her another one since she was sick the first day.
There aren't any signs of MBD that I can tell, and she gets plenty of calcium.
We are out of blocks, but I'm giving them the monkey biscuits right now.
She hasn't eaten in two days. Now she's refusing to drink. I'm going to have to go in there in a minute and syringe feed her just to get fluids in so she doesn't get dehydrated. Her urine is clear. Her eyes are watery but clear. Her poop seems fine.
What would you do? I don't know at this point...I'm willing to try anything. I just went and got some fresh SMZ and am just getting back in.
Any ideas? Would the metro still be good? Or should I go with the SMZ? I tried to pack her up to have her looked at but she was flipping out. Friend gave me a carrier and I can take her to vet on Monday if I have to, but have read that fecals are very expensive and most don't do them anyway.
Teeth are fine as far as I can tell. They're long, but always have been. I looked in the roof of her mouth and don't see any punctures from bottom teeth.

[jbtartell]

Hows lill girl tonight? Hope she is fine.Let me know how she is.. you can text orcall iff you like..:poke :wave123

[Milo's Mom]

I am not sure if this means anything or not, but I was giving Ellie Monkey Biscuits and HHB's (alternating them). Primarily she got the HHB's but here and there she got a Monkey Biscuit and she did eat them. Then I noticed she was spending a lot of time in bed and not playing and running around her room like normal. I watched and monitored for a few days and gave her only her veggies and HHB's. After a few days she was herself. I kept up with the veggies, took out the HHB's and gave her Monkey Biscuits, she went back to not playing and staying in bed. I went through this process twice just to make sure that it was not just a coincidence...she did the exact same thing. I have not given her anymore Monkey Biscuits.
I know that more than a few of our rehabbers do feed Monkey Biscuits and they have never had a problem. Ellie was raised on Zupreme products and with the biscuits being from Zupreme...did not think there'd be an issue.

She was never lethargic, and she always drank water and ate her other items...she just spent more time in bed for days in a row.

Again, not sure if this has anything to do with Little Girl, but Ellie seemed to have an issue with them. I stopped and now the only block she gets is HHB's.

[pappy1264]

I have stopped feeding monkey biscuits as I had read there had been some issues with aflotoxins (of course, I can't remember when I read it, but I know that was why I had stopped using them.) I would stop giving her the monkey buscuits, as this does seem (timewise) to correlate to her eating them.

[Tara]

Just went in to give her pedialyte and she refused it. She did sit up long enough to eat half of a leaf of romaine. I tried my best to get her weight-- it's around 700 grams. Not sure what my next step will be...

[Skul]

I'm a bit puzzled by this.
I know you have watched her diet in the past.
Just one thing comes to mind.
Has she had any animal type protein lately?
Mealworms, cooked chicken, cooked chicken bone, egg?
If "no". please consider it.

[Milo's Mom]

Tara, how is Little Girl doing? If she is not liking the Pedialyte how about just a plain hydration fluid? (1qt warm water, 3 Tablespoons sugar, 1 Teaspoon salt) Maybe she did not like the flavor of the Pedialyte.

Has she stopped drinking from her regular source totally? Does she have a bottle or dish normally?

When Ellie seems to be drinking less than normal, I take her bottle and scrub the living heck out of it in water that is so hot I can barely put my hands in it. Then I soak it in a bleach/water solution for about an hour. Then I scrub it with hot water and soap again, then rinse very well in cold water. I do clean her bottle regularly with soap and hot water, but sometimes I find that when I do a super cleaning she drinks her normal amount.

Also, I have noticed that if her water gets warm and has some condensation on the inside top of the bottle (the area where water would be, but is not because she drank it) she will drink less. This could happen the day after I clean her bottle or several days later...just depends on the weather and the amount of sunshine coming into her room. When I see this condensation, I empty the bottle, rinse it with very hot water then fill it with fresh cold water. Again, she seems to drink more of it.

Basically what I am saying with all of these variables is that on average every other day I am doing something to the water bottle in one fashion or another.

Hope Little Girl is feeling better today.

[crazysquirrels]

Perhaps a bad allergy to something in the biscuit or something else she is eating?

[skarabrae]

How many times has she been on antibiotics? I know there are side effects that come with frequent antibiotic use (which is why we should only use them when we know absolutely that the problem is an infection)... I'm not experienced enough to be able to tell you whether this is in any way related though.

[Jackie in Tampa]

tara...we need update...:grouphug

[Tara]

Sorry for the delay...LG doesn't feel well. I took her out of the inside/outside cage because she went out and we had to take the cage apart to get her back in the house. I was afraid she would overheat while so sick and lethargic.
Anyway, she's sleeping in my dresser drawer and she hasn't come out unless I pick her up and remove her. I have to hand her her food. She hasn't been eating well at all, or drinking much.
She's off the monkey biscuits, I went and bought the kaytee forti diet block for now, until I can get the HHB's. She won't touch them-even with almond butter.
I did start her on the SMZ. She's on her 2nd day of that. She won't eat her yogurt with the almond butter...I took away the peanut butter. She normally loves her yogurt w/ peanut butter.
I've checked her teeth and mouth as well as possible, and don't see any punctures...which would explain the whistle.
Her eyes stay almost closed all day. They're both very watery. Her poop seems darker today and her urine is still clear, but seemed to be a whole lot more than usual.
Her diet usually consists of romaine, cucumber, squash, green beans, snap peas, cauliflower, broccoli(either/or) , sometimes an artichoke or brussell sprouts, and a fruit. She ate a few bites of kale today also. Of course, they have antlers, rocks, sticks, etc... as well. Nuts are usually pecan or almond.
Any ideas? Her eyes look so sad. It's really breaking my heart to see her feeling so bad.

[Nancy in New York]

Hydration is key. If she is not drinking, she will not feel like eating. Are her poops hard? If so this is another indication of dehydration. Do you know any rehabbers that can subq if it is needed? UGH....you have to wait until Monday to see a vet? Is this vet squirrel friendly?
If you had her outside, can you check her body for ticks, any little bump under the skin, inspect it, to rule these out.
skarabrae asked how many times she has been on abs., they can build up a tolerance to them.

[Tara]

Hydration is key. If she is not drinking, she will not feel like eating. Are her poops hard? If so this is another indication of dehydration. Do you know any rehabbers that can subq if it is needed? UGH....you have to wait until Monday to see a vet? Is this vet squirrel friendly?
If you had her outside, can you check her body for ticks, any little bump under the skin, inspect it, to rule these out.
skarabrae asked how many times she has been on abs., they can build up a tolerance to them.



She's drinking very small amounts of water. I think I will make more homemade pedialyte for her. She is eating more than she's drinking at this point. She loves her romaine. I'm concerned a bit about forcing the sugar/salt/water solution because it's so thin and she's been fighting me so hard to get anything down. She has that little whistle in her nose and possibly chest. I've been trying to listen, but just can't really tell.
I do have a rehabber less than an hour away. I have everything I need to subq if absolutely necesssary. I've never done it before though.
I went and met up with rehabber Thursday. Tried to get LG packed up so she could check her out, but she was so sick and I decided not to stress her anymore than she already was. I did make several attempts, but she was going wild. She's not used to being locked up. She has run of the room most of the time. Vet is squirrel friendly, and recommended by a member, but had Fri, Sat, Sun off.
I've checked her entire body as well as possible, and haven't found any lumps or bumps or spots. Their outside cage is actually on a wooden deer stand (yes, you might be a redneck if.....lol---don't laugh-we had to make do with what we had) and attached near the top of my window. The top window is let down several inches with pipe wrapped with caging material coming through the window to their indoor cage. Wood and caging blocks the rest of the window so it isn't open all the time, and I just lay a piece of fleece over the pipe at night so they can come back in if they want to. Basically, their cage is probably 10 ft in the air or so. We have copperheads and I don't want them stuck on the ground with those-or the racoons, possums, coyote....etc! I would think that a spider bite is more likely than a tick based upon their location, but I could be wrong. I haven't found evidence of either.
In response to the number of times antibiotics have been used...I would guess at least five times. Possibly more.
Poops aren't soft, but didn't notice anything more than them being darker than usual today...and stuck to her bottom because she's not getting up to potty. :(

[Tara]

What else could cause the watery eyes? She's keeping them halfway closed most of the time. And the whistle? She lets me open her mouth and look at her teeth and gums pretty good...I can't see any redness or wounds in her mouth. Allergies is an option I guess? What else?

[Tara]

What else could cause the watery eyes? She's keeping them halfway closed most of the time. And the whistle? She lets me open her mouth and look at her teeth and gums pretty good...I can't see any redness or wounds in her mouth. Allergies is an option I guess? What else?

UPDATE: I've been giving her fluids via syringe (by mouth) all night, little bits at the time. She's fighting me every step of the way. I think I may have caused a sore/ulcer to come up on the inside of her cheek. :(
Now her mouth is sore and she's only licked a tiny bit of yogurt this morning. She actually bit me last night she was so mad. She normally only nips when playing or getting my ankles.

Thanks for everyone's help. Anyone know the answer about the eyes? They're so watery and now she's getting the stress tears as well. :(

[Nancy in New York]

UPDATE: I've been giving her fluids via syringe (by mouth) all night, little bits at the time. She's fighting me every step of the way. I think I may have caused a sore/ulcer to come up on the inside of her cheek. :(
Now her mouth is sore and she's only licked a tiny bit of yogurt this morning. She actually bit me last night she was so mad. She normally only nips when playing or getting my ankles.

Thanks for everyone's help. Anyone know the answer about the eyes? They're so watery and now she's getting the stress tears as well. :(

UGH....do you have any windows open? I don't know what would cause the watery eyes other than allergies, or teeth. I am going to direct a few people to this thread, perhaps they can shed more light on this....:dono

[Nancy in New York]

Go to this thread and start with Post #95. I have to run for a while, this will give some suggestions as to what may be going on....:dono
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26403&page=5

[Kat762]

This sounds so much like the problems my Andi has had,5 or 6 years ago was exactly as you describe, would not eat or drink.Took her to vet & told him I felt it was a mouth problem.Twice he looked in her mouth & said he saw nothing.I INSISTED he look again so, exasperated, he told a tech to get a scope and looked in her mouth with a scope.He said " Now I see why she wont eat, her throat is so swollen she cant eat " She had such a bad infection it took months to cure her,the only thing she would eat/lick was watermelon.Please get Tara some seedless watermelon and offer her that, it hydrates them, and flushes their kidneys and is cleansing.At least that would be something til she gets to the vet.Insist they look in her mouth/throat with a scope, and give her fluids.
If she is hard to medicate they can use Wedgewood Phjarmacy in NJ to compound meds into a cream to rub on her ears (Dont know where you are, maybe you have one closer to you ) http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/

I know what you're going through, have been there, and am there again right now, just try and keep her hanging on til tomorrow, I will pray for Little Girl and you:grouphug and WATERMELON.:Love_Icon
Kat

[Jackie in Tampa]

tara...can you switch to baytril/cipro? or metro?
let's expedite bacteria warfare.
SMZ-TMP is a slow to show med...
yogurt and cipro, lots of fluids..
I may give some benedryl as a sedative...not a knock out dose, just give her some peace, making 'her comfy' dose.
:grouphug

[Tara]

Little Girl is pitiful. Worse than ever before. She's mad with me because I continue to force fluids. Now she's going to a different drawer hoping I can't get to her. Teeth chattering. I know her mouth is sore-my fault-I'm pretty sure. It's on the side I keep putting the syringe. Next time I'm going to chance attaching one of those slim clear nipples to the syringe to try not to hurt her mouth...she's not sucking anyway, so pray it doesn't go down her throat. I'm only getting small amounts in at the time.
Eddie is here now helping me. She's had her SMZ for today.
I have metro (3 pills) and half a yellow pill ? and two halves of a large white pill with 00 on one side and a single something on the other that looks like a G maybe) (can find out what it is but Jackie may know), and but was in fridge and fridge went out for over a week. Both are in pill form. Shouldn't they be okay? If so, need dosing for approx 700g squirrel please and let me know which to use.
Only baytril was a small syringe and I'm assuming it should be thrown away. I've had it and a syringe of dex for two years.
I also have tramadol that was prescribed to me. It's fresh.
NOW I'M AFRAID IT MAY BE ODONTOMA (however u spell it)...!!!!!!!!!!!???????
I don't know!
HELP MY GIRL! PLEASE!!
MORE MEDS........and i have BIOSOL (NEOMYCIN SULFATE) 200MG/ML AND ALBON (SULFADIMETHOXINE) 50MG/ML

AND WHILE I'M THINKING ABOUT IT THANKS FOR EVERYONE'S HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jackie in Tampa]

tara, are the tablets from lisa?
use metro, can someone look in wildmammel babies and get the reco'd dose, i am not home. i think it is 50mg/kg

[Jackie in Tampa]

tara,see if anyone on has wild mammel babies and can find me the metronidazole dose info..
your tablets, are they from lisa recently? or long time ago? the fridge incident is okay.
but if they are from along time ago, we'll staret with them and we'll get freesh
i will go home...let me get packed...
willck back in a few minutes too.
on a lap top, not used to it..sorry sloppy.

[Nancy in New York]

tara, are the tablets from lisa?
use metro, can someone look in wildmammel babies and get the reco'd dose, i am not home. i think it is 50mg/kg

I will send Tara the info in a pm.:thumbsup

[Jackie in Tampa]

I will send Tara the info in a pm.:thumbsup tell me what the mg/kg is right above the chart, i need to dilute it and then dose for 700gram, ty niny
or pm me if you do not want to post on open board, ty

[Nancy in New York]

tell me what the mg/kg is right above the chart, i need to dilute it and then dose for 700gram, ty niny
or pm me if you do not want to post on open board, ty

I just pm'd you Jackie.
Tara clean out your mailbox.

[Jackie in Tampa]

no pm..lezaving be home in 45 minutes

[Nancy in New York]

no pm..lezaving be home in 45 minutes

I just resent Jackie. I think because Tara's box was full, it didn't go to you either,....:dono Should be there now.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I am wondering if something on the menu was old or bad and upset her tummy. When mine doesnt drink the amount I want him too I give him some water melon, very juicy!!:D
Also I give fresh coconut to loosen up hard stools. It is a special treat and dont give but a small amount , the size of my finger nail.

[Tara]

EMPTIED PM'S. SORRY. Just got off phone with Lisa and she said she would do cipro and metro with tramadol for pain...and she said I need to subq her. :(
Cipro because of respiratory I think she said...with her sneezing (poofing) this morning and she has had bit of a runny nose today. Not even sure if I posted that here. So sorry.
Thanks for your help! Lisa doesn't have computer and can't get to her books for dosing, so if y'all wouldn't mind shooting me a msg I'd greatly appreciate it. :/
:thankyou

[Tara]

tara,see if anyone on has wild mammel babies and can find me the metronidazole dose info..
your tablets, are they from lisa recently? or long time ago? the fridge incident is okay.
but if they are from along time ago, we'll staret with them and we'll get freesh
i will go home...let me get packed...
willck back in a few minutes too.
on a lap top, not used to it..sorry sloppy.

Jackie, metro should be fairly fresh. one half of cipro is fresh and the other I couldn't say. tramadol was recently filled for me.

[Tara]

UGH....do you have any windows open? I don't know what would cause the watery eyes other than allergies, or teeth. I am going to direct a few people to this thread, perhaps they can shed more light on this....:dono

have about a 4 inch hole open through the window for the boys to tunnel through.... I've looked and looked behind those top teeth-had her head all the way back, mouth wide open, almost upside down and don't see any issues behind those top teeth.
She's the squirrel that's been through all of the drama with the tree falling and knocking down their release cage-she's afraid of storms-been released a few times and keeps getting lethargic spells. Ended up on 21 days of meds and figured out that at that time she was pregnant, but don't think her sickness was due to that because it continuously happens. Boys were born inside and are in the process of getting acclimated for release now.

[Nancy in New York]

Jackie, metro should be fairly fresh. one half of cipro is fresh and the other I couldn't say. tramadol was recently filled for me.
Tara what strength is the metro?

[Tara]

Tara what strength is the metro?

I don't know...we'll have to ask Jackie. Hopefully, she will know. I have them in a plastic ziplock bag labeled metro. :/ Pill is white, fairly thick, round tablet with 851 on one side and 93 on the other.

[Tara]

JACKIE......!!!!!! WHERE R U?

[Jackie in Tampa]

just got in...
just sent pm..
I am working on the best dilution..small amount will be easier..brb

[Tara]

UPDATE: Just came in from vet's office. He didn't do any major tests, but did review my notes, which included date, problem, meds administered and for how long...and he said that he thinks she has pasteurella aka "Snuffles". I'm flipping out because I once read that it was killing large populations of squirrels in other areas. That makes sense because if LG would have been a wild, she would have never made it. I think it's also spread very easily. He said that she's probably had it since she cut her first teeth. Wonder why?
He gave her azithromyacin 20mg orally, and a shot of dex which was half a mg. He gave me another dose of azithromyacin to give her Friday. He said the dex will make her feel better tomorrow. He made it sound like it was simply a sinus infection, and when the word pastuerella came out I realized it wasn't good. He said that the meds he gave her should clear it up-does that mean "forever"?
So, should I be flipping out? I am going to have to really research this. The boys seems fine...he just said to watch them. I'm trying to acclimate for release...now I'm not sure what to do.
OH, and I didn't cause an ulcer in her cheek forcing fluids...she was born with it. LOL! It's how they cram so much food in their mouths...which mine have never done to the point where their cheeks were chubby. Can't remember what he called it.
AND, he says she's not too dehydrated and to continue to offer fluids.
Vet visit was not at all what I expected. I went in trying to eyeball what needed to be moved before we got her out of the carrier in case she went wild. She didn't even try to bite him! WOW!
AND...he has another office that's only 35 mins from me! :)

Okay, u guys post and tell me what u think. If I disappear for a bit it's because I slept less than 2 hrs last night and less than 10 in four days...ugh!

[Jackie in Tampa]

well that came outta no where...
and you were worried with her teeth...
I have no experience to weigh in with any advise or info...
PLEASE keep this thread updated with as many details as possible..so we can all learn too, TY.
:poke research reserach research...

hoping someone with experience can come and share :grouphug
knowing is half the battle...sending good vibes:Love_Icon

[Tara]

what do u all think about those meds?

[Jackie in Tampa]

THIS WAS TAKEN FROM RAT MEDICINE CHART

AZITHROMYCIN

BRAND: ZITHROMAX
PFIZER
4 to 8mg/lb BID-SID, PO
.1 to .2cc/lb BID for the first 14 days, then .1 to .2cc/lb SID for another 14 days, if needed
Bacteriostatic, broad-spectrum antibiotic. Good for respiratory infections. Has been shown to have excellent results on younger rats, but is less effective on chronic, older rats. Use in combination with Doxycycline for better results in these cases. (Caution: there have been two reported cases of stroke using this combination, although they have not been definitively connected to use of either drug.) Does attack mycoplasma specifically. Cherry flavored — most rats love it. Expensive. Prescription needed.

[Tara]

Knew I had read something on it...found this in one of my posts from 8/2/11.

Tara
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: in my own little bubble
Posts: 580
Re: URGENT**RELAPSE-LETHARGIC W/ RUNNY NOSE
spoke to a fairly local rehabber (don't know her) who told me to look this up...said it sounded like this may be the problem. pm if any suggestions/opinions...
Pasteurella multocidaFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
Pasteurella
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Bacteria
Phylum: Proteobacteria
Class: Gamma Proteobacteria
Order: Pasteurellales
Family: Pasteurellaceae
Genus: Pasteurella
Species
Pasteurella multocida


Pasteurella multocida is a Gram-negative, non-motile coccobacillus that is penicillin-sensitive and belongs to the Pasteurellaceae family [1]. It can cause a zoonotic infection in humans, which typically is a result of bites or scratches from domestic pets. Many mammals and fowl harbor it as part of their normal respiratory microbiota, displaying asymptomatic colonization.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Disease
3 Virulence, culturing, and metabolism
4 Treatment
5 References
6 External links


[edit] HistoryPasteurella multocida was first found in 1878 in fowl cholera-infected birds. However, it was not isolated until 1880, by Louis Pasteur - the man in whose honor Pasteurella is named.[2]

[edit] DiseaseSee: Pasteurellosis
P. multocida is the most common cause of infection from animal injuries (pneumonia in cattle and pigs, atrophic rhinitis in pigs and goats, and wound infections after dog/cat-bites.) A high leukocyte and neutrophil count is typically observed, leading to an inflammatory reaction at the infection site (generally a diffuse localized cellulitis).[3] It can also infect other locales, such as the respiratory tract. In more serious cases, a bacteremia can result, causing an osteomyelitis or endocarditis. The bacteria may also cross the blood-brain barrier and cause meningitis.[4]

[edit] Virulence, culturing, and metabolismA bacteriophage encodes the toxin responsible for most P. multocida virulence factors. This toxin activates Rho GTPases, which bind and hydrolyze GTP, and are important in actin stress fiber formation. Formation of stress fibers may aid in the endocytosis of P. multocida. The host cell cycle is also modulated by the toxin, which can act as an intracellular mitogen.[5]
P. multocida will grow at 37 degrees Celsius on blood or chocolate agar, but will not grow on MacConkey agar. Colony growth is accompanied by a characteristic "mousy" odor due to metabolic products.
Being a facultative anaerobe, it is oxidase-positive and catalase-positive, and can also ferment a large number carbohydrates in anaerobic conditions.[6]

[edit] TreatmentThis bacterium can be effectively treated with beta-lactam antibiotics, which inhibit cell wall synthesis. It can also be treated with fluoroquinolones or tetracyclines; fluoroquinolones inhibit bacterial DNA synthesis and tetracyclines interfere with protein synthesis by binding to the bacterial 30S ribosomal subunit. Despite poor in vitro susceptibility results, macrolides (binding to the ribosome) also can be applied certainly in the case of pulmonary complications. Because P. multocida is most often acquired as a result of an animal bite (primarily by cats), infections are frequently polymicrobial and involve anaerobic bacteria. As a result, amoxicillin-clavulanate (a beta-lactamase inhibitor/penicillin combination) is seen as the treatment of choice.[7]


and here's a bit more she told me to read....white stuff in eyes is one of LG's symptoms...stess...but there...runny nose too

Pasturella multocida, also refereed to as Snuffles, is a highly contagious respiratory disease most common in domestic rabbits. According to a research article by Julian naturalist, Clint Powell, it is characterized by sneezing and snorting and a yellowish to whitish discharge from the eyes or both. The infection can apparently extend into the middle ear resulting in wry neck, head tilt and loss of balance. Needless to say, loss of balance would be catastrophic to the high flying Gray Squirrel. Since approximately 1990-95 the Gray Squirrel population in Cuyamaca and Julian has plummeted to virtually no sightings reported. During this period Gray Squirrels have abounded on Palomar Mountain. As recently as 1998, squirrels were an everyday sighting in the forests. Since the start of the 1999 school year till the present, I have seen only one Gray Squirrel in the State Park or the rest of the mountain for that matter. It was a sickly individual sitting on the roadside one day.

Apparently this bacteria can be hosted by rodents as well as rabbits and is found in the nares of the nose. It is passed through direct contact from one individual to another. The bacteria count rises when there is increased stress levels in individuals. Who knows what stress factors could be coming into play here?

[Jackie in Tampa]

was she cat caught baby?

[Tara]

was she cat caught baby?

No. She (and Big Girl and Papa) came out of a tree that eddie cut down and mom didn't come back to get them.

[Jackie in Tampa]

how is LG?

[Tara]

LG is doing very well...thank you! :) As I was preparing for the vet visit, I searched and found all of the posts where little girl had been sick. You wouldn't believe how much that helped.
11/9/10-LG approx 2 weeks old
11/21/10-amox for aspiration
4/10/11-tree fell on release cage
4/25/11-lethargic, diarrhea, wheezing pushed fluids, questioned coccidia and giardia, gave metro, smz, and tramadol
Somewhere between May and July 2011 LG and her siblings were released to be free in the trees. Papa left and never looked back. Big girl nested near creek. No sightings for a while now.
7/19/11 LG back inside house. Lethargic, Slightly watery left eye and nostril. Questioned worms, teeth, mbd Treated with Calcium, Capstar, and 7 days of metro.
7/30/11 LG still inside, realized she was pregnant
8/2/11 Relapse-lethargic with runny nose/distressed breathing, slight wheeze, white tears in eyes. Also slightly watery left eye this time. Questioned Bordatella and Pastuerella aka snuffles. Pushed fluids and yogurt(every time she was sick) syrup on gums, calcium, ensure. Treated with metro for 6 days and SMZ for 21 days.
8/14/11- BABIES were born inside in nest box! Such a good mama squirrel!
9/13/11-Lethargic, folded ears, foul, brown poo, dragging bottom. Questioned giardia and treated. Couldn't find what we used....but most likely metro or smz...

9/2011-6/2012...several incidents same as above. Main thing was that she was always so lethargic. I could pick her up and she would just flop. No record of sicknesses on board. I was dealing via phone, email, facebook with friends. Still had a few lethargic spells, and was treated
6/7/12- I honestly thought she would not make it. Lethargic, watery eyes, wheezing in nose, poofing or sneezing, dragging bottom, not getting up to potty, after a while her ears were folded, she wasn't eating or drinking unless I forced her.....and one I missed....wiping nose with paws...like they do when they're cleaning themselves...started treating with metro cipro tramadol and yogurt. lots of fluids. She got so bad that we stayed up all night trying to push her to drink and eat. Horrible...poor girl!
6/11/11- took LG to vet. he said pastuerella (sinus infection is also what he called it), and said to stop other meds and he gave her a 1/2 mg shot of dex, and 20 mg (went to about .2 mark on 1 cc syringe for 700 g squirrel) azithromycin orally. She had improved the next day. Today, she is back to her usual self. :) Giving her another dose today.
He also said that she needs to take another 2 doses of azithromycin 30 days after today.
I hope this helps if anyone has anything similiar going on. Thanks..Tara

[Jackie in Tampa]

:thumbsup :jump :jump :jump :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :wott

:thankyou
Love you LG!:Love_Icon

[Tara]

:thumbsup :jump :jump :jump :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :multi :wott

:thankyou
Love you LG!:Love_Icon


Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou

[Jackie in Tampa]

AZITHROMYCIN

BRAND: ZITHROMAX
PFIZER
4 to 8mg/lb BID-SID, PO
.1 to .2cc/lb BID for the first 14 days, then .1 to .2cc/lb SID for another 14 days, if needed
Bacteriostatic, broad-spectrum antibiotic. Good for respiratory infections. Has been shown to have excellent results on younger rats, but is less effective on chronic, older rats. Use in combination with Doxycycline for better results in these cases. (Caution: there have been two reported cases of stroke using this combination, although they have not been definitively connected to use of either drug.) Does attack mycoplasma specifically. Cherry flavored — most rats love it. Expensive. Prescription needed.




I have never been prescribed this med...so keep us in the loop how she reacts and does..
I am always trying to learn...gotta keep the knowledge updated!:D
thanks tara for letting us know that she feels better, amen.

[astra]

I have not been posting because I have no experience to share, but I have been lurking and I am so, so glad she is doing better:grouphug :grouphug

[island rehabber]

I have taken Zithromax myself, for an ear infection that was so bad it affected my eye on that side, as well.....Zithro knocked it right out. It is a BIG GUN AB. I did not know it could be used on critters as well. :thumbsup

[jbtartell]

Tara whats going on girly.. glad to see dr robbie did good for lg.. call me.. tell lisa to call also..lol

[Tara]

Hi and thanks everyone!

IR, I agree, it's definately a big gun ab. I was very concerned when I left the vets office because I've never heard of anyone else using it. I hope it's okay, and knocks it out of her for good. Concerns me that the regular abs didn't work, especially since we did the metro for 6 days and then the smz for 21 days straight and never missed a dose!

I wonder if he would have used a regular ab had we not already tried the smz and metro?

He used the zithromax for Laura's Sam too. She said it has been working for her. Btw-jbbartell-I'll let lilidukes know to call u when she can. I'm crashing for the night, but maybe we can catch up over the weekend. Everything okay over there? :)

Anyway, I just wanted to point out the main symptoms that LG had so everyone will know what to look for. There were no tests done to confirm the diagnosis, but it is definately a very bad sickness!

[Tara]

HELP. LG is NOT doing well today AT ALL.

I'm not sure if it was in her urine, or poop, but when she urinated there were very soft, white, jelly like pieces when she moved. For a second, I thought it was maggots or something! After further inspection, I see no signs of it being a creature of any kind..but could be wrong. I checked her bottom to see it was her poop, but it's dark... not white. Which makes me really think it came from passed through with her urine. Is that possible? I've never seen it before...and it's noticeable for sure!

Yesterday she was doing great. :(

Gave 2nd dose of meds (azithromycin) on friday. She's back to her drawer and she's only been out of it when I have picked her up and tried to get her to eat and/or drink. Her hind legs work fine, no signs of mbd.

She was laying on my chest and she's wheezing/whistling through her nose. She's also sneezing and both nostrils are runny. She's not drinking or eating well at all. Also, her eyes are very watery again and lids are sticking together.

Any ideas?

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Is it like mucus??
Could be kidney stones
bladder infection
or bowel infection

[Tara]

Is it like mucus??
Could be kidney stones
bladder infection
or bowl infection

yes, I think it could be described as that.... :thinking

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

If at all possible, put white paper towels in her cage, or drawer, and see what color her urine is. Try to determine if it is cloudy or dark or has an unusual odor to it .

[Tara]

If at all possible, put white paper towels in her cage, or drawer, and see what color her urine is. Try to determine if it is cloudy or dark or has an unusual odor to it .

It was a little darker than usual last week, but when we went to vet LG actually pottied on my shirt and he said it was good.
I just tried to absorb urine from earlier...although it was on the couch...but nothing but white pieces remained. They are shrinking by the way... drying out I guess. :(
I do not think that it's dark though, because she's been going to one corner on the desk and I have paper there to keep an eye out.
Will check next time to be sure though.

will also check to see if cloudy or odor...

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Kidney stones would be dark yellow and foul smelling

dark urine can first mean not drinking enough water..then infection, which starts in the bladder then moves up into the kidneys if not treated. Sometimes the urine will just look a little darker, or even pinkish or reddish because of blood in the urine.

Just mucus in the urine and the urine looks and smells normal can mean a bowel irritation of some sort, the mucus membrane is always present in the intestines, keeps everything moving through. If there is a infection, there could be an excessive amount and can trickle down through the urethra causing mucus to be present when one urinates but does not necessarily come from the bladder or kidney.

Unusual amounts of urine with mucus present can also mean a tumor in the
bladder.

[Tara]

Kidney stones would be dark yellow and foul smelling

dark urine can first mean not drinking enough water..then infection, which starts in the bladder then moves up into the kidneys if not treated. Sometimes the urine will just look a little darker, or even pinkish or reddish because of blood in the urine.

Just mucus in the urine and the urine looks and smells normal can mean a bowel irritation of some sort, the mucus membrane is always present in the intestines, keeps everything moving through. If there is a infection, there could be an excessive amount and can trickle down through the urethra causing mucus to be present when one urinates but does not necessarily come from the bladder or kidney.

Unusual amounts of urine with mucus present can also mean a tumor in the
bladder.

doesn't sound like kidney stones based on info above. there was an unusual increase in urine output prior to her getting sick...
I just don't know. :shakehead My poor girl.
and I just dozed off sitting straight up while typing! OH DEAR...

[island rehabber]

I'm wondering if the antibiotic itself is causing strangeness in her poop.....
The sneezing and watery eyes bothers me though...could she be allergic to it, and having a histimine reaction? I would ask the doc tomorrow if that could be possible and if you should stop or switch to yet another med.

[Tara]

I'm wondering if the antibiotic itself is causing strangeness in her poop.....
The sneezing and watery eyes bothers me though...could she be allergic to it, and having a histimine reaction? I would ask the doc tomorrow if that could be possible and if you should stop or switch to yet another med.


The antibiotic may be causing that. I'm pretty sure it was in with her urine though.
She's had sneezing and watery eyes pretty much throughout her sickness, At least 3 of the episodes anyway.
I will call the vet Monday morning to see what I should do.
I went ahead and gave her some tramadol for pain. She's pitiful.

Thanks!

[island rehabber]

Tara, does this sound like what's been going on with her?
http://www.thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7222

[Jackie in Tampa]

I did research this med more, early this AM..
alot of side effects and mostly in the digestive tract...


http://www.drugs.com/sfx/azithromycin-side-effects.html
yet nothing seemed to jump out and scare me wicked.
Yes, mucus in the poop and melena[blood}, but the precentages are very low..

I say if it doesn't appear she is getting better, take her back and ask that something else be tried, and I would try to get as much yogurt in her as possible, the AB does strip the intestines of all bacteria..
be careful what meds you mix, there is a chance that some meds will counteract this medication in conjunction with...just a heads up..
research before adding stuff that the vet did not prescribe..:peace

I hope she has a better day today! you too!

[Tara]

This sounds very much like her. She does have runny nose and watery eyes though. Sometimes folded ears and drags bottom. Poop smells often...to the point of when she's on my shoulder and potties, I smell it before I see it. Not all of the time, but majority. She's been treated for giardia or coccidia before too. I've also noticed that she often rubs her face with her paws. Last night, she had her paw placed on the left side of her face where her whiskers start. I went to rub her and she held my finger to her face for me to rub.

When reading this below, it scares me so much! I know that if the wilds get this, they would most likely die. They become very lethargic so suddenly! LG can be fine one day and down doing absolutely nothing, afraid she's not going to make it through, so sick the next. :( Will it ever go away? She was treated for 21 days with smz and 6 days metro. What will it take? I'm guessing this will always be present in her nasal cavities and symptoms may happen throughout her lifetime? Is that right? Does it cause her lots of pain? She doesn't cry, but she's pitiful. I feel so bad for her.
Stressors I cannot figure out. She does HATE the vacuum...so much that I will not vacuum when she's sick. Her boys may be stressors? They are older now and have even started the real quarreling every once in a while. They have decided that they want to sleep in the nestbox in the outside cage. LG goes sometimes, but often to her drawer. There's a huge empty nest box in the inside cage that they haven't been using.
No one other than eddie and I go into her room (sometimes there are exceptions). I've been gone a good bit lately. I found a part time job that takes 12-13 hrs of my day 1-4 times a week, depending on schedule. I load them up with food and let them play for at least an hour outside of cage every morning. Most of the time they are still up when I get home, so I give them a treat and let them out to play until they decide to go to bed...whether it be in my "shredded up" bra drawer or their outside nestbox.LOL! LG has her own drawer with her fleece in it.
Kids could be a stressor. Mine are 13 and 20, and my 13 yr old feeds the dogs and gives them water. The water hose is fairly close to them.Also, my nephews ages 3 and 5 come over a good bit...NONE of the squirrels like the noise from that. LG used to panic when they shot pool, so I boxed up all of the pool balls and they don't play anymore. (The things we do for our squirrels). Anyway, I'll keep thinking...

Tell me more...will it go away? I have to work from 8-8 all week except Thursday. I'm not quite sure what to do. What about the boys? I'm trying to get them ready for release. Will they be okay or get bordatella or pastuerella when released? You guys tell me what to do. I've cleaned and cleaned.


Bordetella in Squirrels

Some rehabilitators in Northern California have reported that some squirrels in rehabilitation died rapidly and unexpectedly during the past two months with few symptoms and no obvious or common causes such as trauma or aspiration. Recent suspicions that Bordetella might be responsible for some of these deaths were confirmed by lab tests, but more tests are needed because other conditions also should be considered. This info sheet was prepared so that Bordetella might be considered a possibility when rehabilitators notice potential contagious squirrel respiratory conditions and discuss the cases with their veterinarian.

Bordetella bronchiseptica is a gram-negative bacterium, commonly found in the respiratory system. In its non-pathogenic form, it is part of the normal respiratory flora. Its virulent or disease- causing form can be activated by concurrent disease ?, or by the presence of stressors such as overcrowding, transportation, poor ventilation and other factors. Bordetella is a highly contagious bacterium to many animals, sometimes across species (but not currently described as zoonotic). I keep the door closed, but window open for them to come in and out. First started 15 days after tree fell and knocked their cage down. She was pitiful and hiding in the nest box terrified. We had to unscrew it to get to her. Major stressor there. As far as poor ventilation, I am a bit concerned about the urine smell. It seems the boys urine is much stronger than girls...and I cannot get rid of it. I wipe down everything with bleach and water and scrape the wood bottoms on their cage with a putty knife after it's soaked for a while to remove everything I can. However, I do have carpet. I'm sure they've went there too.

A sample of the symptoms described by squirrel rehabilitators with these recent sick animals in care include:
- Rapid onset of symptoms. MOST DEFINATELY
- Lethargy and weakness. MOST DEFINATELY
- Often refuse to eat and/or fight attempts to feed. MOST DEFINATELY
- Profuse, frequent urination, sometimes involuntary. I DID NOTICE THIS LAST TIME THAT SHE WAS URINATING A GOOD BIT. I MEAN, IN MY DESK CORNER, SHE URINATED A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT SPREAD OUT IMMEDIATELY TO ABOUT 5-6 INCHES IN DIAMETER. THAT'S A LOT FOR HER. (Note that while profuse urination often is described in the current cases, it is not a common Bordetella symptom in most species and may be a secondary condition or another disease.)
- Rapid and significant dehydration and weight loss, likely due to profuse urination and difficulty eating. HONESTLY, I DON'T KEEP UP WITH HER WEIGHT VERY OFTEN, SO I CANNOT CONFIRM THAT, BUT HER SKIN IS MUCH LOOSER NOW, IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE.
- Moderate fever. I DON'T KNOW. WHAT IF I MISSED IT? I'VE NEVER REALLY NOTICED A FEVER ON ANY OF THE SQUIRRELS I HAVE CARED FOR THAT I CAN REMEMBER. SHE DOES SEEM TO GET CHILLS WHEN SHE'S SICK. SHE LIKES TO STAY SNUGGLED UP ALL DAY IN HER BOX OR DRAWER.
- A variety of respiratory conditions, which can include sneezing, audible breathing and gagging or coughing. Although respiration difficulties are not uncommon with juvenile squirrels that might have aspirated, the profuse urination that has often preceded the respiratory symptoms has been very different. YES TO SNEEZING, AUDIBLE BREATHING (I'M ASSUMING THAT MEANS I CAN HEAR IT? THE WHISTLE OR WHEEZE I KEEP TALKING ABOUT) NO GAGGING OR COUGHING THOUGH.

Antibiotics, particularly Bactrim (e.g., TMP, SMZ), have been effective with Bordetella in rodents when used for 14-21 days. SCARY! WE TREATED HER FOR THIS WHILE SHE WAS PREGNANT. SHE HAD METRO FOR 6 DAYS, AND THEN SMZ FOR 21 DAYS STRAIGHT. NO MISSED DOSES AT ALL. Supportive care also is essential, such as limiting activity by keeping in a small cage, providing supplemental heat, ensuring good nutrition, and minimizing stressors such as noise. Use effective hydration protocols with isotonic fluids to avoid dehydration. Due to its highly contagious nature, follow strict quarantine and sanitation protocols. Some rehabilitators also have used homeopathy and reported positive results, especially with the homeopathic remedy Phosphorus. As always, consult closely with a veterinarian on diagnostics and treatments.

[Tara]

I did research this med more, early this AM..
alot of side effects and mostly in the digestive tract...


http://www.drugs.com/sfx/azithromycin-side-effects.html
yet nothing seemed to jump out and scare me wicked.
Yes, mucus in the poop and melena[blood}, but the precentages are very low..

I say if it doesn't appear she is getting better, take her back and ask that something else be tried, and I would try to get as much yogurt in her as possible, the AB does strip the intestines of all bacteria..
be careful what meds you mix, there is a chance that some meds will counteract this medication in conjunction with...just a heads up..
research before adding stuff that the vet did not prescribe..:peace

I hope she has a better day today! you too!

I will do that. She hates to travel though. I gave her some tramadol last night and this morning. She seems to be doing much better today (so far)...do u think the tramadol is alright? Her ears were a bit folded and I really think her face hurts, like ours when we have sinus infection. :(

[jbtartell]

Oh my. sam is doing fine same old sam.. suburn and well sam..lol sounds to me like she may have asperation newmonia. If she is weezing and all have you tried to call dr robbie? you need to call him.. I wish I could see her I know what that is and sounds like. Tara you need to take her back to dr robbie and let him look at her again and like jackie said dont mix the meds with not prescribed meds it could hurt her. I hope she is ok. call me if you need me..:poke :Love_Icon

[Tara]

Oh my. sam is doing fine same old sam.. suburn and well sam..lol sounds to me like she may have asperation newmonia. If she is weezing and all have you tried to call dr robbie? you need to call him.. I wish I could see her I know what that is and sounds like. Tara you need to take her back to dr robbie and let him look at her again and like jackie said dont mix the meds with not prescribed meds it could hurt her. I hope she is ok. call me if you need me..:poke :Love_Icon

Hey! Robbie checked her lungs and said they sounded fine, that it was only in her sinuses. Aspiration pneumonia is with the clicking in the chest, right? It's not that. I will have to call him tomorrow. My only day off this week is Thursday (unless the schedule changes at the last minute-which happens often). I just recently started babysitting job-doesn't even pay min wage, but better than nothing-it's hard to find a job around here, so I'm just thankful to have a little money coming in for bills and kids.
I was thinking about taking the kids with (if their mom will let me)...they're almost 1 and just turned 2...but LG stresses OUT when she's caged up! Much less with kids whining! She gets nervous when my nephews come over and they stay upstairs or outside! She doesn't even like to hear them! Not quite sure what to do about that.
I would have to drive 40 minutes to get kids ...pack them up, then drive 40 mins back to my area, and 35 to 40 to his office in totally opposite direction. May not be in that office...so may have to drive over an hour to the other office and then all the way back again. OH DEAR!
Have to work on that...right now not sure if LG is alright today, or if she's just tired and resting. Will update later.
Haven't tried to call Robbie, assumed he wasn't available on weekends. His card only has office numbers listed, no emergency or after hours numbers. hmmm....

[jbtartell]

yes the officehere is open every day they can contact him if needed. he will let them know what to tell you. I just hope she is ok, that is just weird. gave sam some dex this morning she was acting sore. she dose not like the heat pad cut off during the day either..lol but I turn it on at night. she is spoiled..

[Tara]

Update: LG is doing well as of today and yesterday. Called vet today and he said that the white mucus in urine is most likely the viral infection coming out of her system.
I also asked if it was okay to give her the tramadol. He said that I could, but he would rather I did not right now because he wants to make sure that she is doing good on her own and that the pain meds aren't covering up her sickness.

[Tara]

:wahoo :alright.gif :crazy GREAT NEWS! LG has been hopping, jumping, rolling, and wrestling with me and her boys all morning! Plus she's trying to get out of her room for almonds! LOL!
I hope this med works and gets rid of this nasty thing for good. I'm concerned that if it remains, eventually she will build up a tolerance to the meds and they will no longer work. Especially since this is such a strong antibiotic.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this?
What about her boys...should I release them? What if they have it too? What's the right answer here? Vet said to just watch them. I've been acclimating them for release. I don't want to release just for them to go out and die. :( :shakehead :thinking

[CritterMom]

I would keep her on the antibiotics well past when she appears to be just fine and make sure that you kick this bugs a%% this time so it can't come back. As long as she is tolerating the meds well, speak to your vet about this. We had an older squirrel with an issue like this a year or so ago and it wound up being fine - AFTER about a month plus of SMZ-TMP instead of the 7-10 they had been doing.

I would hang onto her babies for another week or so and see if there are any issue.

[jbtartell]

I agree with crittermom, tara I am soo glad lg is fine.. yayyyy keep me updated..:wott

[Tara]

I would keep her on the antibiotics well past when she appears to be just fine and make sure that you kick this bugs a%% this time so it can't come back. As long as she is tolerating the meds well, speak to your vet about this. We had an older squirrel with an issue like this a year or so ago and it wound up being fine - AFTER about a month plus of SMZ-TMP instead of the 7-10 they had been doing.

I would hang onto her babies for another week or so and see if there are any issue.

Yes, she only had two doses of the azithromyacin. He said it would last 30 days. I have to go back in a month to get 2nd round of the two more doses.

That squirrel from a year ago was probably my Little Girl. :/ We've fought this for a long time. She did well for a while with the 6 days of metro followed by 21 days straight of smz....but we have had the same issues pop up here and there since... :/

The boys are still acclimating (well-they come inside when it's hot) to the temps outside. LOL! I am hoping that works well enough for them to get used to everything. I'll be keeping them for a little while longer for sure. :)

[Tara]

I agree with crittermom, tara I am soo glad lg is fine.. yayyyy keep me updated..:wott

ME TOO! She's my sweetheart! Not as near as nice and cuddly today as she has been though...hahaha! Either way, I love that squirrel! :jump

[lilidukes]

Hey Tara finally found a minute to get all the puters connected up. Using my phone sucks for internet usage.:shakehead

ask your vet if it would hurt to dose the boys too. I have fresh azithromyacin you can have. just a thought.

I know that LG feeling better has got to be making you feel lighter:grouphug

talk later:grouphug :grouphug

[Tara]

Hey Tara finally found a minute to get all the puters connected up. Using my phone sucks for internet usage.:shakehead

ask your vet if it would hurt to dose the boys too. I have fresh azithromyacin you can have. just a thought.

I know that LG feeling better has got to be making you feel lighter:grouphug

talk later:grouphug :grouphug


HEY! :wave123 Glad you're back online! lol! I'll ask him about that. :) I think that I've decided as long as they don't come down with the symptoms while they're here, I'll release them to be free. They love their outside cage, and have been sleeping in it every night except for last night.
I think it's very close to release time... :tilt