4 babies and a couple questions

[SD Soccermom]

First, I want to say thank you! It's been 26 days since I took my babies in and while I am not a rehabber, I must say, I know more about squirrels from this forum alone than I ever thought possible. on a 50 degree really windy day back in April, during the 5 minutes I was outside, I heard screeching and watched a mother squirrel freaking out 30 feet up in one of our evergreen trees. I then heard the familiar squeak i had heard 4 years ago when Sami fell out of his tree. Although Sami was completely furred and it only took a couple weeks to help him become an independent squirrel outside on his own, i wasn't prepared for this. Pink and cold babies.....3 of them on the ground and 1 stuck on a tree branch. I warmed them immediately and over the next 4 days desperately watched a tree and took them one by one outside under the tree laid them on the ground and waited for mom to come get them....the problem was both the weather and possibly a new mom....neither cooperated...I couldn't leave them out longer than 5 min or they would freeze...anyway, after 4 days passed, I couldn't believe the mom would have any milk left I gave up and now fast forward to today....now on Fox Valley formula and correct syringes, they are growing and i think looking pretty good.
here are my questions. 1. how long do I keep the heating pad on the bottom of the cage? till they get hair or no longer want to snuggle between the t-shirts? 2. One baby is half the size of the other 3....should I be concerned? She's eating 2-3cc's each feeding and she doesn't act sick...and my last question, how old? I'm guessing 5 weeks...their eyes look like they could open any day and their backs are getting quite dark and the tails are looking more like fur...by the way 3 girls and 1 boy. the boy has a nick on his head (i'm sure the fall did it) and he'll probably always have it until you can't see it anymore when he is fully furred. again THANK YOU...you have amazing posts which help tremendously.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/DSC_1551.jpg

[Nancy in New York]

I made your picture smaller, what an adorable little baby!

[stepnstone]

QUOTE=SD 1. how long do I keep the heating pad on the bottom of the cage? till they get hair or no longer want to snuggle between the t-shirts? 2. One baby is half the size of the other 3....should I be concerned? She's eating 2-3cc's each feeding and she doesn't act sick...and my last question, how old? I'm guessing 5 weeks...

:wave123 Cute little baby!

As long as you have the heating pad only half under the cage so they can move off if they get to warm I would leave the heating pad. They still need it for now.
Not unusural to have a runt in a litter, can you get a weight on them? The rule of thumb is they should be eating 5-7% of their body weight at each feeding.
The eyes opening at 5 weeks is almost like clockwork for greys, I would say they are close.

[SD Soccermom]

it's now way more serious. the little one is lethargic and not eating anymore. she is showing ribs and all i can get down her is pedialyte. she had a bout of diarreha and dark brown 2 days ago, did a round of pedialyte and the poops were back to soft and like the 3 others but lighter than theirs, assuming that's now because of less formula and pedialyte. it is Fox Valley, but she doesn't want that anymore.

[Milo's Mom]

Is the formula warm enough?

She's got to get some calories.

Does she still have diarrhea? How long has she had it?

How much does she weigh?

[SD Soccermom]

i warm the formula but not avail and I don't know how much she weights. i have a postal scale but it's not digital and I'm not sure how to read it.
and no the diarrhea has stopped. it's firm now just like the other 3. it was really only 1 time where it was really liquid"y".

[Nancy in New York]

i warm the formula but not avail and I don't know how much she weights. i have a postal scale but it's not digital and I'm not sure how to read it.
and no the diarrhea has stopped. it's firm now just like the other 3. it was really only 1 time where it was really liquid"y".

I am moving your thread to the emergency section. Hopefully it will get more attention.

[Nancy in New York]

How often do you feed them? Try feeding the weaker one more often if she is only taking small amounts. Not sure if you answered this, but how much at each feeding does she take, and how often do you feed?
If that is a recent photo of one of your babies, they probably are more like 4 weeks. I am just guessing the weight to be no more than 60 grams.
Can you weigh them on a postal scale and tell us what you get?
Keep them on the heating pad on LOW, half under the container and half off. Do you have lots of fleece in with them, they love to snuggle/borrow into it.

[SD Soccermom]

she was up to 2.5 to 3cc's about 2 days ago, now I force at least 2 cc's down her of pedialyte. the rest of them are averaging about 4 -5cc's.
the scale is old school and it looks like 1.75oz. if that is correct her sister is 2.5oz. and I might be reading this entirely wrong. I am feeding about 5 -6 times a day. sorry, I know that i push them too long but I also work full time and maybe i'm screwing them up...I feed in the early am, come home at lunch, feed right after work and then at night it's every 3 hours with the last feeding at midnight so they can go the 6 1/2 hrs while I sleep. it's 5 hrs between the early am, lunch and off work....now that school is out, I'll have more help with regular feedings.

[Milo's Mom]

she was up to 2.5 to 3cc's about 2 days ago, now I force at least 2 cc's down her of pedialyte. the rest of them are averaging about 4 -5cc's.
the scale is old school and it looks like 1.75oz. if that is correct her sister is 2.5oz. i might be reading this entirely wrong.

How long have you been giving her the Pedialyte?

1.75 oz is 49.61 grams
2.5 oz is 70.87 grams

As long as you read it the same way every time, it is providing a number for us to gauge from...gaining or loosing day by day.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

The little tyke with the big belly looks to be in critical condition! Is she peeing and pooping OK? She looks severely bloated.

what kind of formula are you feeding and how are you mixing it up? How much water and how much formula powder?

[SD Soccermom]

i had just forced 2 oz. of pedialyte down her before the picture. she just pooped at noon and peeing is not much. she's been on pedialyte since midnight last night.
32/40 Fox Valley formula and stirring with hot water, not shaking.

[Milo's Mom]

Just to make sure...are you mixing the FV formula 2 parts water and 1 part powder?

Does her belly normally look like that?

Is her belly hard or is it soft?

Can you take another pic of her with her belly facing the camera and post it. This looks like bloat...which is not a good thing.

[SD Soccermom]

her belly is soft. I just went back to the 1cc syringe and forced 1cc of formula down so she could get some calories. Yes I mix the formula 1 part formula to 2 parts water.

[Milo's Mom]

I am not trying to ask you dumb questions, I am just covering all bases and do not want to take anything forgranted.

You are stimulating her to pee and poop, right?

Is she staying nice and warm?

[SD Soccermom]

no problem..I should know these questions since I've been reading this forum for the last 4 weeks :) Yes...gone through a box of 500 q tips since we started and half a bag of cotton balls. the other 3 pee so much they need a cotton ball, but not her so much anymore. I do have to shake out the t-shirts in the cage every night because I still see dried poops in there..
and yes, the heating pad is been on constantly for the last 4 weeks and leaving 1/3 of the cage without it...
should i soak her in warm water if it is bloat? would she be bloated from not peeing enough?

[Nancy in New York]

She looks really bloated to me. How are her poops? Do you have infant gas X?
You can give her a couple of drops of that, and no more feeding until that tummy goes down.
When was the last time that she pooped? And what was the consistency?
Sorry if I am asking questions that you already replied to, baby season, and everyone's time is limited, and it's difficult to read everything that you wrote.

[Nancy in New York]

I took this off of the Squirrels and More Site


Bloat
This is not normally seen on arrival but may occur if an animal has been fed an improper formula or overfed. Be sure to follow the feeding instructions closely and the improper formula will not be an issue. If the baby does bloat, don’t feed or offer water until its resolved. You can offer a few drops of human baby gas drops (simethicone) to ease the gas. You can also soak the baby’s lower half in a warm water bath while you massage his tummy. Do this for 5 minutes or so, then dry the baby and let him rest in a warm spot for 15 minutes and try again. Your goal is to get the baby to pass stool, gas or urine, and relieve the bloat.

[Milo's Mom]

Do NOT feed her anything else for now. NOTHING.

I am going to go with the bloat theory until proven otherwise.

In a small container of VERY warm (not hot) water, submerse the baby's lower half (not the head) and firmly but gently rub downwards on her belly.

Do NOT allow the baby to get chilled.

Go to the store and get some infant simethcone and give her 1 tiny drop.

Bloat is caused by babies not digesting the formula and it is all backed up in their system.

The belly needs to go down and things need to get moving before more food is given.

Make sure the baby stays warm. The warmth will help get this moving. Coldness or being chilled will slow it down.

[SD Soccermom]

her poops were small but solid..but she hasn't pooped for 4 hours. I will run to the store for the infant gas x...that is not something I keep on hand. how much for her - we're guessing her weight at roughly 50 grams.

[Milo's Mom]

Per the post from Nancy, which came from Squirrels and More...

You can offer a few drops of human baby gas drops (simethicone) to ease the gas.

I would start with 2 drops.

[Nancy in New York]

her poops were small but solid..but she hasn't pooped for 4 hours. I will run to the store for the infant gas x...that is not something I keep on hand. how much for her - we're guessing her weight at roughly 50 grams.

You can actually do two small drops to start.:thumbsup
Edit: Just saw your post MM...:D

[SD Soccermom]

ok..we have movement....she started crying then pooping alot! but it's soft and almost a white/gray color...is that good or bad? do i give her pedialyte or plain water to keep her hydrated while we flush her out? it started soft then a whitish almost diarreha texture. is that non absorbed formula? Now I'm worried that I can't notice bloat...if my other 3 are gaining weight and really active during feeding, is there a chance they could have it too? or as long as they poop and pee after each feeding and it's firm and brown color, do i consider those fine?

[Milo's Mom]

white grey poop is over feeding/undigested formula

brown/golden poop is good

I have not personally dealt with bloat first hand so I am going to leave that to our experts, my knowledge is from other posts and members and from reading books. I do not know how soon you can start feeding again. I would think that when you do, you'll want to start with a slightly watered down formula. Again, please allow our experts to advise you on this.

Has her belly gone down in size?

Does she seem more active?

Did you give her the water bath or the gas x or both?

Pee and poop with each feeding is good...they gotta go, you just have to figure out if they like to go before eating, in the middle of eating, or after they are done eating.

[Nancy in New York]

ok..we have movement....she started crying then pooping alot! but it's soft and almost a white/gray color...is that good or bad? do i give her pedialyte or plain water to keep her hydrated while we flush her out? it started soft then a whitish almost diarreha texture. is that non absorbed formula? Now I'm worried that I can't notice bloat...if my other 3 are gaining weight and really active during feeding, is there a chance they could have it too? or as long as they poop and pee after each feeding and it's firm and brown color, do i consider those fine?

Awe poor baby. I would put a little bit more water into just her formula. You can do in between feedings with warmed pedialyte to keep her nice and hydrated, and more hydration should keep her on track. You can even do a little bit of apple juice watered down in between feedings, again warmed. They digest better if formula and hydration fluids are warmed. If she doesn't poop at least every other feeding....then I would give her more baths, and get her moving again.
Keep us posted and if you want to post more pictures, that would help too.:)

[SD Soccermom]

Update: my baby is still alive but wasting away. She feels like I will break her when I pick her up. Sat. I had to give her some formula so she had some calories so I watered it down and she was pooping a light yellow color (very light yellow)...so I continued with only about 1.5cc of formula at a time. by Sunday I was up to full strength.still only 1.5cc's because I didn't want to over feed and lose what I thought I was gaining..did a couple feedings of watered down apple juice, but seems to give her diarreha....I thought we were making progress...her poop was consistant but always very light compared to her brother and sisters....tonight all white again.It's firm but white and seems to be alot more than the others ..I'm going to try to upload a current picture, but my computer crashed Friday night.so trying to figure out how to compress the picture so it fits...I bought a digital scale and she is 35g today...sorry it was estimated on Friday when this all started. her brother is 59g, and her 2 sisters are 60g and 65g...so she's half their weight. what do I do? any ideas? I have some Danon all natural yogurt, is that something I should try?

[Nancy in New York]

Oh God....I have no idea what is going on. Up until a couple of days ago, this little one was fine, just smaller. Sorry, I didn't go back and read the whole thread.
Do you have a vet that will see her? I'm not sure of any members that we have in your area.
I feel so helpless. Keep her warm, love her, hold her as much as you can, in a warm fleece blanket. When you put her down occassionally when you go by her reach in and give her reasurring touches.
Maura believes in humming to the little ones.....almost like a purr. Place her up to your neck so that she can feel and hear the vibrations.
I wished I had more to offer you, but I am just stumped.
I'm wondering if you should just put her on the goat mild formula....something is going on where she is not digesting this well I fear.:shakehead

[Nancy in New York]

I am just reposting the GM formula. Is this a different can/package of formula that you are using? Do you keep it in the freezer or the refrigerator?

I would try the GM formula....this one does not look well, and something is going on with her digestion.
One of our senior members who posts as Jackie in Tampa uses an excellent temporary substitute, and it can be assembled from locally purchased ingredients:

3 parts goat’s milk
1 part heavy whipping cream*
1 part vanilla yogurt

Formula will last 48 hours in refrigerator.

Goat’s Milk
This can be purchased at natural food stores such as Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods, and at most health food stores that sell groceries. It is a product for humans. Do not substitute commercial formula made for baby goats or other livestock sold at feed stores.

Goat’s milk is available fresh in a carton; evaporated in a can; and as a powdered milk. If you purchase either the evaporated or powdered versions, please blend them with water according to the package directions before using to make the formula.

Heavy Whipping Cream
This is found in small cartons in the grocery store near the coffee creamers and half and half. Regular heavy cream may be substituted if it is unavailable, but the heavy whipping cream has the highest fat content, and is preferred.

Yogurt
Yogurt has beneficial bacteria in it that soothes and settles digestion. Full fat yogurt is best, and a good choice that is very widely available is Stoneyfield Yobaby yogurt. However if it is unavailable, a low fat vanilla yogurt may be substituted. Avoid those that have artificial sweeteners in them. Vanilla and banana are both popular flavors, and the sweet taste of the yogurt helps to convince the baby to accept it.

It has been recently discovered that very small pinky squirrels may do better digestively if, instead of being given Fox Valley formula straight, mix the Fox Valley 50/50 with the Goat’s Milk Formula assembled WITHOUT the heavy whipping cream.

*It is recommended that when just starting to feed a new baby that the first feedings be made without the heavy whipping cream. This will give their digestive systems a chance to acclimate from mama’s milk to our substitute without the harder-to-digest whipping cream. Once they accept the formula and are eliminating properly, the whipping cream can be gradually added in.

[SD Soccermom]

I had all 4 of them on this goat's milk formula while I waited for shipping of the Fox Valley so I know how to make this... if you are asking how I store the formula, I make just enough to last 2 days and store in the fridge...both the bag of dry fox formula and the made up stuff...I'll go back to the Goats milk for now on just the small one...I'll keep you posted.

[skippy]

I had all 4 of them on this goat's milk formula while I waited for shipping of the Fox Valley so I know how to make this... if you are asking how I store the formula, I make just enough to last 2 days and store in the fridge...both the bag of dry fox formula and the made up stuff...I'll go back to the Goats milk for now on just the small one...I'll keep you posted.

Hi Soccer Mom.
Just reading your thread. I don't see anyone has posted in reply to this but if I'm reading this correctly, you are keeping your Fox Valley 32/40 for 48 hours before mixing new? I use FV. I always remix a new batch every 24 hours. GM formula may last longer but I have never kept FV for more than 24 and sometimes less if their are green stools.

I use very warm bottled water and mix in a portion of the water I will be using to my FV. I use a whisk to stir it up into what looks like a paste when you make gravy. Nice and smooth without any lumps, then I slowly add the remainder of my water to the mix, stirring after each bit. This makes a nice smooth liquid.

I have often had litter mates that were smaller than the others. I have 3 grays now, one was very small compared to the siblings but he has grown up just fine. The only thing with him is he could never tolerate the FV 20/50 and has had to stay on the 32/40 but now that he is almost weaned he is able to tolerate the higher fat content that is in the 20/50.
You just have to care for them individually and don't worry about where the other siblings are. She just has special needs and has a good chance of surviving if you if you hover over her with extra attention and care until she stabilizes.

I see you are doing your best with the feeding schedule and your work schedule. It's very important to keep their feedings on a consistent schedule with no more than a variance of 30 minutes if necessary. They need to have at least 3 to 3 1/2 hours between their feedings if you are 5 to 6x a day. I have found that with the Fox Valley formula, it carries them further than when we used to use Esbilac which you don't want to use as it's no good for squirrels any more. One of the grays I have now was fine on 2:1 and then started in with the white poop, which is digestion problems. I had to dilute her formula down to 3:1 for a few feedings then 2 1/2 :1 for a few more. I also use a product called Nutri-cal I get at my pet store. It's for dogs and cats. I pull up some in a 1cc syringe and just give them a dab on their lips or you could put a dab in with the diluted formula. It is a high calorie diet supplement. This has helped my weak ones when they were struggling and were needing extra calories without giving them too much liquid.

Another fantastic supplement is DMG used for exotics. It will help boost their immune system. Just a dab for each 100 grams is all you need. Again, pull it up into a 1cc syringe and keep it at your feeding area.

Are you using any probiotic such as LA-200 in their formula? You can get that from Fox Valley. I use 1/16 t for every tablespoon of FV. Keep it refrigerated as they are living organisms.

Sorry if this if long and overwhelming, I just wish I could do more. :Love_Icon

[skippy]

Here are the links to some information on the DMG and the LA200 if you are interested. Good Luck.:)

Information on DMG.
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/dmg.html

Link to FV LA-200 product.
http://foxvalleynutrition.com/prod/pricing.asp?CID=8&PLID=11

Do you have a local rehabber that could take over the care of the baby girl for you?

[jo_schmoe]

Ive been staring at this pic for about 20 mins now....and I can't help but think that it almost looks as if her bladder is swollen.
How much is she urinating??

The stiffness is a sign of pain....something is hurting.
Keep her on heat as much as you can......
I don't know about your chances of a vet....but she needs one...ASAP.
I know its not always possible....but please try. In the meantime....just listen to the folks here....( great info from Skippy)....and we will try our best to help you.
I know a few rehabbers in SD.....if your interested. :grouphug

[jo_schmoe]

the other 3 pee so much they need a cotton ball, but not her so much anymore.
I just saw this....
Try and get her to pee.....sometimes it just takes awhile.....:grouphug

[skippy]

Soccer Mom: Another thought here.

I was also wondering if perhaps she may have sustained an injury during the fall that has damaged her organs.
I had a 4 week old gray that fell from a nest recently. She had a swollen abdomen on one side when I hydrated or fed her, another rehabber suspected a hernia and we took her to the vet, the x-rays showed the hernia with her bladder protruding through it. I've also heard of some babies having an umbilical hernia creating life threatening problems too.
Is there a vet you could get her to tomorrow?
She may need more help than just a formula fix.

[Nancy in New York]

Please just clarify. Did she start out on Goat's milk and then switch to FV. It seems that you have had them for a while now, so while I am not concerned about her size, the bloat and her other problems trouble me. If she was on straight GM and switched, and THEN started these new problems.....I would go back to what was working in the beginning, gradually.:dono

[SD Soccermom]

Thanks for all your help but my baby girl died on Wednesday. She hung on for a long time. It's been a tough week, as i lost my second girl yesterday to pneumonia...there was alot of clicking and losing weight fast. we have only 1 vet in this town that will see small animals of this sort (at least they didn't make it sound like I was crazy when I called) and they couldn't get me in fast enough...she went downhill in 2 days..that is rough without antibiotics. Today marks 5 weeks that I've had these 2 little ones that are left and their eyes are just ready to open, so I must have gotten them within a day or 2 of their actual birth. I look at it as if I gave the first 2 - 4 1/2 weeks longer of life than what they would have had. I'm so amazed at how attached one becomes and how hard it is to lose not just one but two... so now I'm concentrating on my boy and girl that I have left and they are full of spunk and energy. Eating really well and now I need to find some next step foods as they are searching for something to chew on. I love this forum, you guys are wonderful for trying to help and no one thinks your nuts for spending hours feeding, pooping and holding such cute little animals.