Squirrel - Head twirling, like she's drunk

[Pashen]

Female, about 6 weeks old, I've had her for 3 along with 5 others.

Had been doing okay, slightly smaller than siblings.

This morning she was not sleeping with the others and when I picked her up, she was nearly limp. I gave her some organic infant banana and Stonyfield organic yogurt, 3 cc then about 6 cc of Fox Valley.

Her limbs were shaky. I separated her. Two hours later, I gave her a couple small pieces of avocado, which she nibbled at and cheerios, which she ate.

Two hours later, she had vomited all up. That's the only time she's vomited.

I made up a quart of water with 3 tsp of sugar and 1 of salt, have given her 3 cc every hour or two.

She seems to be pooping and peeing fine but is really just not doing so well. Her head twirls like she's drunk and she acts like she's going to tip over. Once she eats, she's better. I feed her every 5 to 6 hours, have stopped giving the banana and yogurt, am sticking to the Fox Valley, 9 cc with the water between.

Every time I go to check on her, I think I'm going to find her dead. Any ideas?

[SammysMom]

I a so sorry to hear that your baby is not doing well! Is it possible that she fell and hit her head? It sounds like neurological issues.
I am not an expert, but I am sure one will be along soon! :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[Pashen]

They have been in a two story ferret cage that has a ramp between the floors. Even if she fell off the ramp, unlikely, the fall wouldn't have been far.

And she gets better after she eats -- like she's hypoglycemic or something.

[SammysMom]

Maybe smaller meals closer together? Let's see what the experts suggest!

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Have you tried rubbing some kayo syrup or molasses on her gums, she could be having low sugar issue.
What is her diet right before this happened, she should be only eating FV and nibbling block at 6 weeks

[Pashen]

Banana baby food mixed with organic yogurt, 2-3 cc and FV, 6 - 8 cc. No diarrhea. There has been apple, starting a week ago. Cheerios and rodent block in the cage. Two of the babies are 1-2 weeks older.

She has been fine on that diet for 6-7 days until this morning.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

too much fruit can cause diabetes. I would stop the fruit, baby food has a lot of sugar in it also.
Like I said she should only be on FV and block at this point. Then start offering green leafy veggies.
Not every baby is the same , what one does well on , another may not...Cherrios is not a good food either.
Please look over the nutrition thread, as far as what to do now , try just plan water a little bit at a time but ofte n to help flush her system out, then just formula

[lilidukes]

I would feed only her fox valley and nothing else for 24 hours and see if that helps. :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[Pashen]

The fruit was a minimal amount of the diet. It was just put in the cage between two feedings, once per day, either a little apple or banana. And I have put plates of greens in there. Not yesterday though.

I don't know how much of the apple or banana she actually got because she was always the last to leave their bed.

She's only had FV for the last 10 hours. And water. Then starting 7 hours ago, water with sugar/salt.

[lilidukes]

Have you put her back on heat???

[Pashen]

Yes, she's on heat.

[Pashen]

So no one has any idea about the lethargy, shaking limbs, drunken behavior?

[lilidukes]

I would leave off the water and try feeding her every 4 hours.

[Pashen]

I started with the water after she vomited. And I wasn't sure she was peeing. She is peeing. She seems to want the water when I offer it.

I thought maybe her symptoms might point to something obvious.

[lilidukes]

I'm sorry I missed the vomiting. Yes push push push the homemade pedialyte.

[lilidukes]

What do her eyes look like?
Ears up or down?
Does she feel warm?
What's her fur look like? (spiky, greasy, normal)

[Pashen]

Her eyes were droopy this morning. I thought she would die in my hand. But she's been looking better through the day. Her coat this morning looked awful. Spiky. And tonight it looks lots better but .. it had been 6 hours since she last had the FV and she was weak again.

Earlier today I thought maybe she needed to be fed more often, she's not developed quite as swiftly as her siblings. When I got her and her two sisters and one brother, she was the smallest and was eyes closed. One other sister was eyes closed too, the other two were eyes open. They were severely dehydrated and flea infested.

Got them over that after 24 hours on pedialyte then started with weak Esbilac that I had from last year. Not long after I got them on full strength, I had to purchase a new can of Esbilac and they all started with diarrhea. I almost lost three of the six at that time. It took me more than two days to get that under control. Esbilac must have changed their formula lately?

There was a separate problem with one of the boys but we got through that too. And I just breathed a sigh of relief yesterday that all were healthy and doing good finally and BAM! poor BFF was outside their bed and all but unresponsive.

I'll try feeding the every 4 hours. I'll get a weight on her next time I feed her.

[stosh2010]

PRAYERS for your little Fuzz-head.

[lilidukes]

Do you have any AB's?

Spiky fur is a sign of dehydration. You are feeding Fox Valley now right?

[Pashen]

AB?

She's had FV at 8 am, 2 pm and 8 pm. Water with sugar/salt every hour to two hours, starting at noon.

[Pashen]

What is a greasy coat mean?

[lilidukes]

AB?

She's had FV at 8 am, 2 pm and 8 pm. Water with sugar/salt every hour to two hours, starting at noon.

Ab's are antibiotics.

You said she was flea infested....possibly tape worm...easily treated with Capstar.

Just thinking out loud

[Pashen]

No. No antibiotics.

The fleas -- they were horrible. Their little bodies were crawling masses of fleas. Or lice. The insects were skinny, long and thin. Not like cat fleas.

There haven't been any segments coming from her bottom. I've had cats with tapeworm before and I think I knew they had it because of segments coming out without the benefit of medicine.

She doesn't feel hot to me although I think her breathing is faster than what it should be. There is no rattle in her breathing.

[lilidukes]

That sounds like lice. I'm still thinking she could possibly have a parasite.

I need to go feed my littlest angels. My brains dead tonight. Wish I could do more for you.

Prayers for you little one :grouphug :grouphug

[Pashen]

Do you think it's possible that she hasn't figured out to drink from the water bowl or the bottle?

Could all of this be dehydration?

Can she be that dehydrated having 6-8 ccs of FV 3xday?

What else can cause dehydration? She only vomited that once and she hasn't had diarrhea in ... a week and a half.

[Mrs Skul]

Hi Pashen
Why are you giving 3 cc of StonyField Yogurt and Baby Banana??? :dono
You should only be adding 1 tsp of Yogurt to 1 TBS FV Powder, 2 TBS Water.
Have you Tried rubbing the Molasses or Maple Syrup on her gums, or Tung? Did she act a little better? I would feed her every 4 hr and start Offering her water every 30 minutes to 1 hr in between feedings. (If she is Perking up when you feed her.
Then you need to keep feeding every 4 hr. At 6 weeks Mom would still be Nursing them several times a day. She sounds Hypoglycemic. And the Throwing Up Was from to Much Yogurt/Cow Milk and the Baby Food Banana..
She Is not absorbing the Nutritions like she need. And to answer your Question YES They can get Dehydrated with what Little Bit you were feeding. 3 Times a day for a 6 Week old, is not enough! :nono If she was as Dehydrated as you said she was.
(It sounds Like you are trying to Force ween your Babies. Let her give up the feeding when she is ready. If you do not see her Drinking from the Water Bottle or Bowel. Then You need to offer the Water to drink until you see them drinking on their own.)
They Have to Learn this. Can you post a Picture? That would help out a lot.
Little Dukes Capstar will not Kill Tapeworms! :nono That takes something special from the Vets.
PS
Have you try the Tent test on your Baby yet? You need to pull the skin between the Shoulders and base of the head up like a TENT. Then let it go. If it stays up in Place she is Dehydrated Bad! If it goes back into place quickly then she is not Dehydrated. Please Go read the Squirrel Nutrition. At the Top is all about the Esbilac changing the formula. We do Not Recommend it any more!!:nono
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=191
If you get A Chance, PLEASE Post a Picture of Her. That will help Us Help you Better. I am Praying for this Little One to Pull threw. CM918

[Pashen]

She pulled through just fine.

There was no response one way or the other to the Kayo syrup save she wasn't happy with some I got on her fur.

Yes, I know how to pinch the skin.

And she's fine this morning. The yogurt and banana were not the problem and they given that under the recommendation of my rehab mentor because of the severe diarrhea they had and have done just fine with it.

They were all gaining weight just fine with the amount I was feeding them. It wasn't until yesterday morning that there was an issue.

I believe now that she was dehydrated and will offer water with the syringe between feedings until they are older.

She was last given water with sugar/salt 4 hours ago. I just woke up, went in there, she rolled over, sat up and started cleaning herself. I will feed her in another hour and then switch back to regular water after that. I'll keep her separated from the others until tonight. If she continues to do well, I will put her back with the others.

Thank you everyone.

[Jackie in Tampa]

Weak dilute Fv is better than plain water ...even for rehydration purpose, a full belly with nutrition.
I see you know not to give too much pedi due to sodium:thumbsup
Glad she is better:)

[SammysMom]

Good morning Pashen. So glad to hear the little one did well over night! My suggestion would be that they are still pretty young and adding in another feeding over the course of their day might be a good idea. As someone else said their mom would be feeding them more often.
Good luck and best wishes for healthy babies!

[Pashen]

I was giving her water with sugar and salt in addition to her FV feeding. I never stopped that.

I will give her an additional feeding through the day. She is not as aggressive with getting food as her siblings so she probably was missing out. Not sure why she wouldn't be drinking the water in the cage, as I said, I have a bottle and a bowl so will offer syringe water in between the feedings.

Her vomiting had to do with the avocado, it was too rich for her dehydrated body though she processed the FV just fine.

It was almost like she had a 24 hour bug. BFF looks really good this morning.

Thanks again, everyone =)

[rygel1hardt]

[QUOTE]Pashen. The fleas -- they were horrible. Their little bodies were crawling masses of fleas. Or lice. The insects were skinny, long and thin. Not like cat fleas.

When I get sick, dehydrated babies in they usually are covered in little long skinny blackish bugs. They are not fleas as they squish easily. I dont know what they are but as soon as the babies are rehydrated and doing well, usually within an eight hour period of time the bugs simply vanish. I would love to know what they are. Stacey

[Pashen]

I have no idea. But one did hop so I assumed they were fleas, not lice. I believe that squirrel fleas are specie specific so figured they looked different.

I bathed them twice that first day with just some mild dish soap. Every half hour when I was feeding them their re-hydration, I changed their bedding. The insects liked the warm blanket I had over the warm cornbag I used to heat them. I tossed used bedding in a container outside until I was ready to wash it. I kept a bowl of water by the cage so when I fed them, I could hand pull them off and put them in it.

Now I keep the corn bag in a baggie after it's heated so I don't have to worry about infesting the bag.

They were gone by morning. I have no idea if they were fleas or lice and would like to know too!

[Jackie in Tampa]

that is a sq flea stacey..
I know, weird, but true...
some species have their own fleas:peace
they can hop but not like a dog cat flea..they mostly run and hops are inches at best.
Same treatments as domestic fleas..
edit, posting same time pashen, I am a slow typer.

[Pashen]

Thanks Jackie!!

What I do know is that at some point I realized that I should address the fact that the corn bag wasn't the best warmer because of pee and insects so I warmed a second bag for the squirrels, stuck it into a baggie and put the blanket on top of it.

Then took the one that I had been using outside and beat it outside against the stone side of my house, brushed it off, inspected to make sure there were no insects on it and brought it back inside to the microwave where I heated it for 2 minutes, 20 seconds until it is as hot as I use it for my lower back (for the babies I just heat it a minute 20 seconds to get it warm but not hot).

Timer went off, opened the micro and picked up my toasty corn bag AND BEHOLD!!!

there were two of those buggers running around inside the microwave!!!

Those things will be alive when it's just cockroaches left on earth! Cockroaches and Squirrel Fleas.

They were nuked for two minutes, twenty seconds and they were running around like I'd given them an energy drink!

[Pashen]

New issue!!

I fed her at 8 am and she's breathing fast and hard but not labored? and her energy level has dropped. I did give her 2 cc of the yogurt/banana, 7 cc of FV and 2 cc of water.

She's been receiving yogurt/banana for more than two weeks, discontinued it after she threw up yesterday, thought I would reintroduce it today. Could it be a sudden intolerance to it?

My plan is to discontinue the yogurt/banana for her completely and offer her water in 2 hours.

[rygel1hardt]

I have never seen these hop and they are only on sick babies. I would think fleas would still be on them since I have never treated any of them with bug stuff. If they are fleas then they have no ectoskeleton since they smash easily. Since I was a dog and cat groomer for 25+ years I guess I just assumed that all fleas had the hard outer shells. Learn something new every day. I wonder where they go once the babies get better? Stacey



that is a sq flea stacey..
I know, weird, but true...
some species have their own fleas:peace
they can hop but not like a dog cat flea..they mostly run and hops are inches at best.
Same treatments as domestic fleas..
edit, posting same time pashen, I am a slow typer.

[Mrs Skul]

She pulled through just fine.
And she's fine this morning. The yogurt and banana were not the problem and they given that under the recommendation of my rehab mentor because of the severe diarrhea they had and have done just fine with it.
Thank you everyone.

:wave123 Pashen
I am glad she is Better to day.
I thank you might have mis under stood the Yogurt information. :thinking You add the yogurt in the formula, that will help with Probotics in the tummy. You can Offer a little Plain Yogurt, about 1/2cc. Giving 3cc Yogurt and Baby Banana,
Should not be offered to a baby that Young. :shakehead (It can cause more problems.) If Diarrhea is that Bad, then you need to offer Immodium for Children or another Diarrhea control.
FoxVally now makes DIA-STAT Probotics it is to be added to the FV only when Diarrhea is happening. To much Sugar from the Fruit and Flavored Yogurt will cause Diarrhea, Digestion Issues, and other Organ Problems.
You are trying to stop the Diarrhea so the Probotic can make the Good Bacteria. Then the Good Bacteria will move into the intestines and Coat the Inflamed Lining. Then the Baby can start Absorbing the Nutrition.
I do not wont to Upset anyone, or Step on any Toes. This is how I was taught and have Never Had any Problems.
Remember all Babies go at their own Pace. If you think one is alittle slow. Then treat and feed accordingly. Good Luck with your little ones. :thumbsup

[Mrs Skul]

I have no idea. But one did hop so I assumed they were fleas, not lice. I believe that squirrel fleas are specie specific so figured they looked different.

Now I keep the corn bag in a baggie after it's heated so I don't have to worry about infesting the bag.

They were gone by morning. I have no idea if they were fleas or lice and would like to know too!

Pashen How is your Little Girl doing tonight?
:thinking Could the Bugs Be Weevils? They like Corn, and seeds. Pappy Knows All about that one. :D
Be Careful when heating the Corn and Putting it into a Baggie. The Baggie will get to hot and give off a Gas from Melting/Heating the Plastic. It can Cause all kinds of Upper Respiratory problems.
I know after Heating and Reheating Rice Buddies, the Bugs can't get anything from it. I am Not sure about Corn. :dono I do know when corn gets moist and warm. It can take on a Life of its own. The moister starts braking down the Sugar and Starches and this will create a Warming effect. Then if you seal the Oxygen off. It will get really hot on its own. :thinking Just be careful. Watch the corn Bag.

[Pashen]

I purchased Dia-Stat but that arrived along with FV after I got the diarrhea under control. At least I have it on hand now.

It was my mentor that suggested the yogurt and banana because they had been on the rehydration formula for too long and it wasn't getting better. Their poor systems took a beating from the new can of Esbilac. My mentor has been dealing with squirrels for more than 20 years now. Everyone ends up figuring out what works for them. She wanted some nutrition in them along with something soothing for the belly.

They survived that.

I still have BFF separated and I might see if I can get someone to take a look at her tomorrow. She's eating fine. Cleaning herself. But she still is breathing really fast and I'm not convinced there isn't something trying to develop in her lungs.

As for the cornbag, I don't get it hot, just warm and I leave a corner of the bag unzipped so that there is air exchanged and no build up of moisture. I will remember to keep an eye on it. The corn bags are just used for transportation anyways. I have plenty of heating pads in the squirrel room of my house.

[SammysMom]

Just as a suggestion, rice is probably a better option that corn and is great for just what you are using the corn for. It is just more of a dry consistency. Keep up the good work. :grouphug

[Pashen]

So this is no longer a life threatening issue and maybe the thread could be moved to another forum but I wanted to keep the history intact.

I moved BFF in with her siblings today. She was fine last night, this morning. She's on a good feeding schedule and is receiving just FV although there is rodent block and cheerios in the cage.

Great.

I come home after a meeting today, take her out to feed her and she's losing the fur on her face! All around her mouth, under her chin, in clumps.

I tell you, if it can go wrong with these 6 babies, it does!!

Can she spontaneous develop mites? She's been with me more than 3 weeks now. No one else has this issue. She's not been anywhere else.

Could it be a reaction to the FV?

Could it be that her siblings pulled it off of her??

[jo_schmoe]

So this is no longer a life threatening issue and maybe the thread could be moved to another forum but I wanted to keep the history intact.

I moved BFF in with her siblings today. She was fine last night, this morning. She's on a good feeding schedule and is receiving just FV although there is rodent block and cheerios in the cage.

Great.

I come home after a meeting today, take her out to feed her and she's losing the fur on her face! All around her mouth, under her chin, in clumps.

I tell you, if it can go wrong with these 6 babies, it does!!

Can she spontaneous develop mites? She's been with me more than 3 weeks now. No one else has this issue. She's not been anywhere else.

Could it be a reaction to the FV?

Could it be that her siblings pulled it off of her??
When you feed her....is there any formula on her fur around her mouth? It can dry like glue and cause hair loss....the fur will grow back.

[cuteascnb]

It's probably from feedings.....eiither the formula, yogurt, or could have been from the mollases as well....she could also have dry irritated skin a reaction from the fleas...I would use a lol a & d ointment...its good for a lot of things....I used it on one of my boys for ant bites and it worked wonders!!! Not sure if there's pics posted anywhere but would love to see ur babies!

[Pashen]

No. No formula on her face that I'm aware of but I gave her a bath, just warm water, to make sure this last time. I've separated her again.

The fleas were an issue April 14th, so I think that's too long ago to be a problem. The kayo syrup was the other night and she's had no yogurt since yesterday morning.

I'll see about getting pictures posted after I feed them next.

I'll keep her clean and dry and reevaluate in the morning. I have ... an antibacterial ointment that my Master Mentor/vet had me get before passing my inspection so I can use that if need be.

I think these little guys are really trying to break me in.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Pashen]

BFF - My daughter named her.

http://www.myrealms.net:8900/rosha/upload/14100933358091282258202024fa3701b.jpg

[SammysMom]

Oh just look at that sweet little face!!! :Welcome BFF!!!

[lilidukes]

So this is no longer a life threatening issue and maybe the thread could be moved to another forum but I wanted to keep the history intact.

I moved BFF in with her siblings today. She was fine last night, this morning. She's on a good feeding schedule and is receiving just FV although there is rodent block and cheerios in the cage.

Great.

I come home after a meeting today, take her out to feed her and she's losing the fur on her face! All around her mouth, under her chin, in clumps.

I tell you, if it can go wrong with these 6 babies, it does!!

Can she spontaneous develop mites? She's been with me more than 3 weeks now. No one else has this issue. She's not been anywhere else.

Could it be a reaction to the FV?

Could it be that her siblings pulled it off of her??

They all carry the mange mite but it will lay dormant. It can come out after an animal is over stressed, injured or ill.

Not saying this is what this is. Usually with babies it's just milk scald.

Pretty baby :grouphug

[Pashen]

Still keeping an eye on it, the fur on her stomach is thin.

My first squirrel, Bandit, she ended up with fur issues which was resolved with Vit D mashed in her food and I rolled her rodent block in wheat germ oil. Oh, she loved that!

My vet said that some ferrets have an endocrine issue that causes that.

That's how I found this board, was looking for an answer to that and the fact that she had a tail the curled to her body. That didn't start until she was ... 3 or 4 months old. A rehabber here, that was over in England, had seen it too with some of her squirrels.

Recessive gene, vet and her think.

[Pashen]

Bandit had been negative to mites.

But I didn't realize that they all carry them. Thanks!

[Pashen]

That was wrong, she received pulverized Calcium w/o Vit D. I apparently wasn't awake yet when I typed that.

Here are all six of them =)

http://www.myrealms.net:8900/rosha/upload/19313686551089719121187954fa3ed4b.jpg

[jo_schmoe]

Oh my!! What a sweet baby!!
I just noticed where you are from...Im right next door...( ND)

Any oil out your way yet?? The reason I ask.....I will be attending a 2 day class in Bismarck by Game and Fish....about the effects of fracking chemicals on our wildlife. One of the big things they are noticing is hair loss...not mange related. The coyotes and deer seem to be the worst affected.
I recently had a bald red squirrel....and I have never had a solid answer as to why....this class may shed some light on it. :dono

[Pashen]

No, no oil here. I'm just across the river from Minneapolis.

So negative on the fracking although I know someone that owns land a little west of here that discovered millions and millions of dollars of frac sand under the water table, under the limestone that's being mined on his property.

Let me know what you find out at the conference!

[jo_schmoe]

No, no oil here. I'm just across the river from Minneapolis.

So negative on the fracking although I know someone that owns land a little west of here that discovered millions and millions of dollars of frac sand under the water table, under the limestone that's being mined on his property.

Let me know what you find out at the conference!
The oil is still about 200 miles west of where I live. ( im about an hour southwest of Grand Forks)....and the wildlife right here are showing signs...this conference should be interesting. Apparently the oil co's dont have to tell anyone whats in the chemicals....nice huh?? I will be sure and let you know what I find out. :peace