Bad stages of MBD!!

[AJandJR]

I really need some guidance. My wife and I took a squirrel from someone who no longer had time to care for it. Around 16weeks of age she started showing symptoms of MBD. Through this website, we got her back to excellent shape and thought we were in the clear. She is now approximately 24 weeks. We were giving her the dosage of calcium recommended through this site. We have been feeding her 2-3 henrys blocks each day with oranges, cucumbers, lettuce, bananas, meal worms in between. We were dusting the blocks with Flukers calcium powder. We ordered some blocks last week and ran out Thur. We started feeding her veggies, fruits and meal worms dusted with calcium. Saturday night when we got home she was hunched over and not doing good at all! We put a uv lamp over her and was giving her calcium like we had in the past. She was doing really well yesterday but we were trying to keep her calm as possible. Well today she is about in the same shape as saturday night. NOT GOOD AT ALL! When I get back home, should I give her another dose of 600mg? Is there anything that I can do that I'm not doing? I've been giving her the calcium mixed with a small amount of yogurt. I've been giving her plenty of veggies etc.

[stepnstone]

What type of squirrel, is this a flyer?? :thinking

[Ghostie]

I really need some guidance. My wife and I took a squirrel from someone who no longer had time to care for it. Around 16weeks of age she started showing symptoms of MBD. Through this website, we got her back to excellent shape and thought we were in the clear. She is now approximately 24 weeks. We were giving her the dosage of calcium recommended through this site. We have been feeding her 2-3 henrys blocks each day with oranges, cucumbers, lettuce, bananas, meal worms in between. We were dusting the blocks with Flukers calcium powder. We ordered some blocks last week and ran out Thur. We started feeding her veggies, fruits and meal worms dusted with calcium. Saturday night when we got home she was hunched over and not doing good at all! We put a uv lamp over her and was giving her calcium like we had in the past. She was doing really well yesterday but we were trying to keep her calm as possible. Well today she is about in the same shape as saturday night. NOT GOOD AT ALL! When I get back home, should I give her another dose of 600mg? Is there anything that I can do that I'm not doing? I've been giving her the calcium mixed with a small amount of yogurt. I've been giving her plenty of veggies etc.


Eeep, I'm not sure, sounds like you're doing everything right! Maybe too much calcium? But that doesn't sound right to me...


Someone who knows more will be here shortly, I'm sure, just hang in there!

:Love_Icon

[Jackie in Tampa]

:Welcome Hi and welcome, sorry you are having these issues...
can you help us with more info?
What formulas?
what is her weight?
what blocks are you using?
we need as much info as you can give..it will help us help you:grouphug

[astra]

well, if she is has been eating blocks and dusted Cal for 8 weeks now she should not really have any acute MBD symptoms.

MBD is a long term illness, and relapses are common if the diet is not followed, but in your case, it should not happen.
Unless she injured herself.

Hunched over is not always an MBD symptom. Hunched over is when they are not feeling well and/or in pain.

1. she might have injured herself if she has MBD history her bones are still fragile. Does she get to jump a lot?.. what is her set up? what are her daily activities? Is there any possibility that she could injury herself?

2. Could you describe in detail the last couple of meals directly preceding her hunched over moment?... Exactly what she ate and in what amounts/
Is there a possibility that she could ingested something bad?...
So, please try to recall what she ate.

3. Do you give her out of cage time?... is the room where she gets out of cage time squirrel-proof?
COuld she have any access to:

a) house plants
b) cosmetics (lotions etc)
c) human vitamins, supplments etc
d) markers etc (they like to gnaw on them and there is a risk of ingesting the potentially harmful stuff)
e) are there other pets?... could she have access to other pets' toys?
d) cords?... wires?... that she could have chewed?

So, please try to describe everything in detail in terms of her daily routine, meals etc. because this may not be MBD.

Someone experienced will be here soon.:grouphug

[astra]

:Welcome Hi and welcome, sorry you are having these issues...
can you help us with more info?
What formulas?
what is her weight?
what blocks are you using?
we need as much info as you can give..it will help us help you:grouphug
Jackie, I think it says that she is eating HHBs - 2/3 daily

[AJandJR]

Its a grey squirrel. The only thing I wasn't too sure about was the Flukers... When I pick her up she just lays there hunched over. Her eyes look real sad and she doesn't like when you pick her up at all because she crys. I know mbd causes a lot of pain so I only have picked her up to force her to take calcium. Like I said, yesterday she was doing great! This morning she was just the same as saturday night. I received my blocks today and she didn't even want it, which is very different. She only ate a few bites of the cucumber I put in there. I noticed there was even half of a pecan left in her bed which NEVER happens. How much yogurt is too much? I was mixing the calcium with the yogurt and putting it on cucumbers.

I pray my little girl is still alive when I get home :(

[Jackie in Tampa]

Jackie, I think it says that she is eating HHBs - 2/3 dailyhow could he run out in a week?:dono
they are sold in a bag with a months worth..that's how mine are shipped...

[AJandJR]

:Welcome Hi and welcome, sorry you are having these issues...
can you help us with more info?
What formulas?
what is her weight?
what blocks are you using?
we need as much info as you can give..it will help us help you:grouphug


I'm using the growth formula blocks from henrys. As far as weight I don't know exactly.

[Nancy in New York]

how could he run out in a week?:dono
they are sold in a bag with a months worth..that's how mine are shipped...
Jackie I think he meant that he ran out of blocks last week and ordered more.:)

[Nancy in New York]

I just skimmed this thread, but I would stop the Fluckers. If she is eating that number of blocks plus additional calcium you are over supplementing in my opinion.

[AJandJR]

well, if she is has been eating blocks and dusted Cal for 8 weeks now she should not really have any acute MBD symptoms.

MBD is a long term illness, and relapses are common if the diet is not followed, but in your case, it should not happen.
Unless she injured herself.

Hunched over is not always an MBD symptom. Hunched over is when they are not feeling well and/or in pain.

1. she might have injured herself if she has MBD history her bones are still fragile. Does she get to jump a lot?.. what is her set up? what are her daily activities? Is there any possibility that she could injury herself?

She is in a bird cage 52"L 18"W 40"H... She has a branch that runs from the top corner tothe bottom corner. She jumps all around her cage. I bought material Saturday to build her a large cage outside Sunday. That's on hold but hopefully she will one day get there :/

2. Could you describe in detail the last couple of meals directly preceding her hunched over moment?... Exactly what she ate and in what amounts/
Is there a possibility that she could ingested something bad?...
So, please try to recall what she ate.
We had ran out of blocks so I will start from Thur. 6am half block, 2 meal worms, carrot. 11am half block, cucumber, orange. 4pm lettuce, banana, orange. 10pm half block meal worm, carrot, mustard greens. Then from Friday it was 6am 2 meal worms, cucumber. 11am orange, lettuce, carrot. 4pm meal worms, cucumber. 11pm lettuce, yogurt.

All of the blocks and meal worms were dusted with Flukers.


3. Do you give her out of cage time?... is the room where she gets out of cage time squirrel-proof?
COuld she have any access to:

a) house plants
b) cosmetics (lotions etc)
c) human vitamins, supplments etc
d) markers etc (they like to gnaw on them and there is a risk of ingesting the potentially harmful stuff)
e) are there other pets?... could she have access to other pets' toys?
d) cords?... wires?... that she could have chewed?

She gets out time twice per day and does not get into any of the above. She has grabbed a few pieces of dog food here and there. She did get under my stove a few times last week and grabbed some unidentifiable pieces of food that was cooked weeks or months ago.


So, please try to describe everything in detail in terms of her daily routine, meals etc. because this may not be MBD.

Someone experienced will be here soon.:grouphug


Thank you all so much for your time and help!

[AJandJR]

Nancy, your post made me think about something else. She has been drinking a bit more as well. I'm lost and confused now. Should I stop giving her calcium supps or should I give her a dose when I get home? I don't think any vets around here will take her in for a checkup. Any way that I can find out if she has a major abundance in her system? Maybe through urine?

[Jackie in Tampa]

Stove wire is 220, it would have killed her.
Make sure there are no roach baits under there,
by removing the drawer.
Not sure about how long they are poisonous??
You are getting great help..
thank you for finding TSB..
I am going to stay outta the way..good luck to you both:grouphug

[AJandJR]

I have no designed poisons or any types of traps in my house. Cleaners and lotions etc. are inside of cabinets.


Thanks!

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy, your post made me think about something else. She has been drinking a bit more as well. I'm lost and confused now. Should I stop giving her calcium supps or should I give her a dose when I get home? I don't think any vets around here will take her in for a checkup. Any way that I can find out if she has a major abundance in her system? Maybe through urine?

When did you first start treating her for MBD? Does she have the blocks right now? She is NOT eating though, is that correct?
I just don't like the sound of it that you started Fluckers and now she is like this....it could be nothing at all related, but we need to get to the bottom of this. What state are you in? Just the state, no city.

[fire-eyez]

What about diabetes?....excess water drinking and based on what you describe you are giving lots of fruit in fact you are giving more fruit than veggies also mealworms are high on phosphorus.....I would cut Back on the fruit and give more nutritional foods which are more veggies....my boy gets 4 pieces of fruit every three days

[fire-eyez]

Cucumbers are also high in phosphorus ...just a thought

[ninjasteve]

cucumbers are high in phosphorous?? nutty use to eat them all the time before he was laid to rest last week... im wondering if flukers isnt too good for squirrels? maybe there is other stuff in it besides calcium and D3?? only because NINY just said something about it..... we gave nutty that stuff for maybe 4 or 5 days before we stopped ca all together..then the issues really began..not sure its related ,it very well may not be.. good luck with this one though...hope everything turns out ok, there is alot of helpful people on here!! :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

I to set the record straight, I have never recommended Flukers. It could be good it could not, I have no knowledge.
I did mention that Dr. Emerson recommended Nutroball another good source of calcium/D3.
And since it is so difficult to find she suggested as a substitute Exo Terra Ca and D3.
And it would be just a pinch sprinkled directly on food daily.
I use this as a calcium supplement every couple of days.
My squirrels are great veggie eaters, but the blocks....they need coaxing, so I supplement.

[AJandJR]

When did you first start treating her for MBD? Does she have the blocks right now? She is NOT eating though, is that correct?
I just don't like the sound of it that you started Fluckers and now she is like this....it could be nothing at all related, but we need to get to the bottom of this. What state are you in? Just the state, no city.

I treated her for the first time approximately 6-8 weeks ago. We received the blocks this morning and tried feeding her one today at lunch. She was not interested.
I hate this and have no clue what to do at this point. I'm in LA...

Also, she had a small scratch above her eye about 2 weeks ago and then another one in the center of her head that scabbed over. They looked to be nothing serious but that's because nothing was apparently wrong at the time. Maybe it's related?

Should I try to take her to the vet even though they are not allowed?

[Nancy in New York]

It would be far better off if we had a trustworthy member that can recommend a vet to you. IF you go to a vet, make sure it is an exotics vet. Let me see if we have any members in that area that can help.

[Nancy in New York]

I just sent you a pm with some information. Hope it helps.

[ninjasteve]

yes it was recommended with the nutrabol... but they dont have it here..its apparently only in the UK... so we were told(not by you NINY) to get the flukers, as its pretty much the same thing as what Dr E recommends..there was someone on here(dont remember who offhand) saying D3 is super important with absorption/digesting of the calcium, so that is why we went out and got it... i was just starting to wonder if that stuff is truly good for them, again not saying it was the end result of nutty...thats all...and no one knows how much ca is in a pinch either.. at least that is what i can interpret..because it says per pound of food ...hard to measure it seems.
good luck with this little one...hope its ok!!!! :)

[AJandJR]

yes it was recommended with the nutrabol... but they dont have it here..its apparently only in the UK... so we were told(not by you NINY) to get the flukers, as its pretty much the same thing as what Dr E recommends..there was someone on here(dont remember who offhand) saying D3 is super important with absorption/digesting of the calcium, so that is why we went out and got it... i was just starting to wonder if that stuff is truly good for them, again not saying it was the end result of nutty...thats all...and no one knows how much ca is in a pinch either.. at least that is what i can interpret..because it says per pound of food ...hard to measure it seems.
good luck with this little one...hope its ok!!!! :)

I did read the Dr. Emerson report and that is what turned me onto the flukers. I have a bearded dragon and had it on hand so I thought how perfect it would be.

The way I was adding the calcium was taking 5 blocks out of the freezer at a time and taking a pinch and putting them in a ziplock bag and shaking. The calcium was not pilled up on the blocks but lightly coating the blocks. When I get home should I put her out in the sun for 30 minutes or so or do you think that may be a bit exhausting? The weather today is very nice and breezy with a 70°ish temp.

[AJandJR]

I just sent you a pm with some information. Hope it helps.

Replied!

[AJandJR]

So now I'm really just thinking it may be a lack of calcium. She was completely fine while we were feeding her the blocks daily. When we ran out and had to cut back for a few days and then to none we continued to feed her the mealworms and fruits and veggies. I did not know that the cucumbers were high in phosphorus, I did not know that the worms were high in phosphorus. With the higher phosphorus and reduced calcium it seems that it was immediate that she started going downhill. It's just crazy that it would start within 3 or 4 days... Almost doesn't seem right.

I do know that she did not get into anything poisonous because I watch her closely because she is NUTS when she is loose. She goes straight from the couch to the countertops and the floors roaming lol. But hopefully she will get past this!

[SammysMom]

You are in the BEST hands with Nancy helping you!
The only thing that I might humbly add is to give her lots of water. If by chance this is caused by something she ingested then water will help to dilute it and flush it from her system. You can't go wrong with hydration!

[patjones]

I have been asking about Flukers with D3 in the nutrition thread and never got any answers but I found and article on a dog MD web site that says rodent poison uses vitD to raise the calcium level in rodents to a toxic level causing them to die and what to do if your dog eats one of these dead rodents. If I am wrong great but if not I don't want someone to loose a squirrel I got rid of my Flukers with D3

[SammysMom]

Wow Pat! I will be looking that up for sure!
I just spoke to Nancy and she wanted me to suggest that offering heat under part of her cage might be soothing. Also, can you run your hand over all cords that she had access to? Just a small jolt may have caused some of this. Do you have a heating pad that has no automatic shut-off? If so, put it under half of her cage on low. Under so there is no chance that she can get the wire. Half of the cage so she can get off of it if she is too warm.

[AJandJR]

You are in the BEST hands with Nancy helping you!
The only thing that I might humbly add is to give her lots of water. If by chance this is caused by something she ingested then water will help to dilute it and flush it from her system. You can't go wrong with hydration!

I've been loading her up on the water as much as possible! I turned her cage on it's side so she would not be able to climb very high. With her cage on it's side she has not really gone to her water jug very much so I have been bringing it to her where she lies. Usually when she sleeps she curls up on her side wrapping her tail around her body. Lately she has been on her back feet just leaning forward with her face in the pillow...

I just got word that she ate her blocks today and she was moving around a bit more. She was climbing all over the place yesterday and acting like nothing was wrong almost all day yesterday. You could tell that after a while she would fatigue but it wasn't alarming like Saturday night and this morning.

It's kinda a hard deal because I don't know if she has too much calcium, not enough calcium and possibly even toxic substances from the flukers. Right now I'm at a cross to where I'm not sure if I should give MBD treatment or halt. Maybe I will hold off on the calcium and see if she continues feeling better. Lets pray that she does!

Thanks for all of the feedback and please let me know if you think of anything else!

[AJandJR]

Wow Pat! I will be looking that up for sure!
I just spoke to Nancy and she wanted me to suggest that offering heat under part of her cage might be soothing. Also, can you run your hand over all cords that she had access to? Just a small jolt may have caused some of this. Do you have a heating pad that has no automatic shut-off? If so, put it under half of her cage on low. Under so there is no chance that she can get the wire. Half of the cage so she can get off of it if she is too warm.

I don't have a heating pad but I can definately go pick my baby one up! Right now I have her under an infrared (reptisun night light) uv light.

She hasn't gotten into any wires (I don't think!) but I will double check.

[SammysMom]

The first thing that I see is that HHBs have everything she needs in the without adding calcium so I'd hold off on that. So glad she is doing better!!! Eating is a great sign. You just can't give her too much water so keep offering it to her as often as possible. Hydration is the answer to a whole lot of questions! Keep up the good work and Nancy will be back here in a little while. Until then though, do check those cords. The "scratches" are a bit concerning and just might be electrocution marks?
Anyone else got any ideas to add here? It is an odd scenario for sure.

[SammysMom]

Those lights are not great for squirrels. If you have some uncooked rice you can put it in a sock and tie it off. Then microwave it for 30 seconds at a time until it is good and warm. Squish it around to be sure there are no "hot spots" that could burn your baby. Then put it in with her in some fleece or tee shirts so she can cuddle up to it and warm up if she wants to.

I'd get the light off of her for now.

[Nancy in New York]

Thanks SammysMom :grouphug and anyone else who has suggestions, please.....we are open to anything.
How long have you been feeding the meal worms and is this a different batch from before. Did this happen shortly after the Flukers?
I did see on your post after re reading that the marks on her head and above her eye, happened two weeks ago, so now I'm not thinking so much that.
You can put her outside, but make sure that it is never too hot, and that she always has shade that she can get into. I usually put mine half in the sun and half in the shade, only if the weather is permitting, and when it's NOT hot and humid.
Still looking....:thumbsup

[Jackie in Tampa]

not enough calcium IMO would not be sitting with head down..that is sick/pain..
low calcium will not sit on their spine/will have seizures and lethargy laying down usually
she needs heating pad, at least the rice buddy Sammy spoke off..
she needs fluids, lots of plain water...
nothing in the water bottle but water..offer a bowl also.
are her ears flat against her head?..
I would not feed anything but fresh veggies or some yogurt..and water til it is diagnosed what may be the issue.
no additional anything.
I am going to try to read thread and catch up:grouphug

[astra]

I hope you can get a trustworthy vet - that will be best.

But if she was off HHBs for a few days with an unidentified amount of calcium (and not even sure about the suitability), given her previous MBD history only 8 weeks ago, relapse is quite possible. MBD is one cunning disease and recovery takes very long, often up to a year and beyond.
So, if this is MBD, it won't be surprising.

and as someone said, if she had HHBs daily, she didn't need any supplements b/c HHBs provide everything they need. Many squirrels were raised on HHBs for many years without any supplementation (unless squirrels are poor block eaters ;))

YOu are in some of the best hands with all the people here
.:grouphug

[Jackie in Tampa]

no outside..too stressful, she needs calm and quiet, she is sick, she needs hydratiion and warmth..
what formula was she on? when did she wean?
any history will help

[Jackie in Tampa]

will she move at all? what does she do when you hold her?
does she appear sore?

[AJandJR]

not enough calcium IMO would not be sitting with head down..that is sick/pain..
low calcium will not sit on their spine/will have seizures and lethargy laying down usually
she needs heating pad, at least the rice buddy Sammy spoke off..
she needs fluids, lots of plain water...
nothing in the water bottle but water..offer a bowl also.
are her ears flat against her head?..
I would not feed anything but fresh veggies or some yogurt..and water til it is diagnosed what may be the issue.
no additional anything.
I am going to try to read thread and catch up:grouphug

I just got home and she drank for a minute straight! I had to wake her up to get her to go get water. Her ears have been flat against her head. I did notice that! When you say give her nothing, that includes the blocks as well correct?

Thank you so very much!!

[AJandJR]

no outside..too stressful, she needs calm and quiet, she is sick, she needs hydratiion and warmth..
what formula was she on? when did she wean?
any history will help

She was weaned EARLY we knew that when we had gotten her! We would lay formula out and she did not want it. We put it in a bottle and no luck. Tried the syringe and she would keep her mouth shut tight. She was weaned at the latest 6 or 7 weeks old. she was being fed peanuts and pecans when we got her. Definately what led to the MBD...

[AJandJR]

will she move at all? what does she do when you hold her?
does she appear sore?

She was moving around all day yesterday like LET ME OUTTA HERE!!! This morning was more like God please let her be alive when I get home!

When she is the way she was this morning she will grunt and cry when you pick her up (which made me think MBD). The only reasons I was picking her up was to force her to drink water and to give her calcium.

[AJandJR]

I hope you can get a trustworthy vet - that will be best.

But if she was off HHBs for a few days with an unidentified amount of calcium (and not even sure about the suitability), given her previous MBD history only 8 weeks ago, relapse is quite possible. MBD is one cunning disease and recovery takes very long, often up to a year and beyond.
So, if this is MBD, it won't be surprising.

and as someone said, if she had HHBs daily, she didn't need any supplements b/c HHBs provide everything they need. Many squirrels were raised on HHBs for many years without any supplementation (unless squirrels are poor block eaters ;))

YOu are in some of the best hands with all the people here
.:grouphug

I had intentions to give her calcium sups for a long time and it was sad because more than anything I want her to have a happy life in the tree tops but I knew that she would have to show signs of recovery for a long time! We were going to build her an outside cage this weekend but this happened! It was going to be the beginning of a slow and soft release :(
Now I'm just hoping that she pulls through this ordeal!

[ninjasteve]

can i ask how long you were using the flukers for in total?? was it a full month or? im having a hard time wondering if this stuff is bad and ended up ending our beloved nutty's life..or contributed to his death?? i sure hope not...any insight about this would be appreciated.. i hope she is doing better.. it saddens me when they become ill or have problems...again, your in good hands here!!

[AJandJR]

Thanks SammysMom :grouphug and anyone else who has suggestions, please.....we are open to anything.
How long have you been feeding the meal worms and is this a different batch from before. Did this happen shortly after the Flukers?
I did see on your post after re reading that the marks on her head and above her eye, happened two weeks ago, so now I'm not thinking so much that.
You can put her outside, but make sure that it is never too hot, and that she always has shade that she can get into. I usually put mine half in the sun and half in the shade, only if the weather is permitting, and when it's NOT hot and humid.
Still looking....:thumbsup

Meal worms have been apart of her diet 3 or 4 times a week, as a snack. When I would feed my dragon and I would give to many I would take one or two out and give to her. That amount increased also when she ran out of blocks... Along with the fruits and veggies. I was dusting her blocks with flukers for a month.

[AJandJR]

Those lights are not great for squirrels. If you have some uncooked rice you can put it in a sock and tie it off. Then microwave it for 30 seconds at a time until it is good and warm. Squish it around to be sure there are no "hot spots" that could burn your baby. Then put it in with her in some fleece or tee shirts so she can cuddle up to it and warm up if she wants to.

I'd get the light off of her for now.


Light is off and will be headed for a heating pad shortly! I wanted to make sure my girl was doing ok first! She drank a BUNCH of water as soon as I got home! :thumbsup

[AJandJR]

can i ask how long you were using the flukers for in total?? was it a full month or? im having a hard time wondering if this stuff is bad and ended up ending our beloved nutty's life..or contributed to his death?? i sure hope not...any insight about this would be appreciated.. i hope she is doing better.. it saddens me when they become ill or have problems...again, your in good hands here!!

It was a full month. She showed ZERO signs of ailment the entire time up to this weekend. It's crazy though because the first go round she was a typical crazy squirrel. All of a sudden one day she was on our couch and was falling as she was walking like she had gotten into the liquor. at first I said well maybe she just fell and is a bit woozy. Then she was having seizures and thats how I found you guys! So here we are again, out of the blue she's having major issues. So I have experianced the perfect squirrel going down in seconds. I just hope she bounces back like a squirrel could, AGAIN!

[AJandJR]

I checked her cage to make sure she didn't have any food in there and noticed that she did eat half of her block. She appears to be feeling a little bit better as she is at least awake and has came out of her bed onto the branch to see what was going on.

I tried to put the rice sock in there and all she wanted to do is chew the sock and get the rice!

[SammysMom]

I can't say enough that you should offer water frequently! If she drinks like that once, she will do it again and it doesn't take too long to be thirsty again. I really almost lost Sammy and it was because he did not drink water from the 2 bottles that were hanging in his cage! Please offer her water often even if it seems like she should be okay. Can you post a picture of her here? One that shows how her fur looks?

[patjones]

I have been doing some more looking and the chemical name for the Vit D3 in the flukers is Cholecalciferol is a form of vitamin D, also called vitamin D3 or calcitriol
Turns out that is the name of the rat poison it is used in rodents are for some reason especially suceptible to D3 and that is why they use it as a poison. I don't know how much is toxic I just want some of the more medical minds here to be aware that it looks super great in the pet store and would they please check into this for us.
I am praying your baby gets better soon.

[AJandJR]

I can't say enough that you should offer water frequently! If she drinks like that once, she will do it again and it doesn't take too long to be thirsty again. I really almost lost Sammy and it was because he did not drink water from the 2 bottles that were hanging in his cage! Please offer her water often even if it seems like she should be okay. Can you post a picture of her here? One that shows how her fur looks?

She's getting aggrivated with me shoving the water in her face but she will thank me one day!! I'm staying on top of her with the water lol! I will get a pic as soon as I'm able. I just cleaned underneath her cage and am in the process of putting her heating pad underneath her cage once it dries. She is climbing her cage and currently laying on her branch. Her fur actually has been shedding a bit and has gone from soft soft to kinda corse and almost looks like shes blowing her coat. This happened around the same time her scratch on her eye and forehead appeared.

[AJandJR]

I have been doing some more looking and the chemical name for the Vit D3 in the flukers is Cholecalciferol is a form of vitamin D, also called vitamin D3 or calcitriol
Turns out that is the name of the rat poison it is used in rodents are for some reason especially suceptible to D3 and that is why they use it as a poison. I don't know how much is toxic I just want some of the more medical minds here to be aware that it looks super great in the pet store and would they please check into this for us.
I am praying your baby gets better soon.

Oh wow! That doesn't sound good at all... I hope it hasn't affected all of her little organs :(

I almost wonder if it is suitable for my reptile...

Thanks for digging into the supplement and sharing. The Flukers hasn't been used since Saturday morning I believe. Maybe even Friday... Will be the last time for sure.

[SammysMom]

Her coat sounds just like Sammy's when he got dehydrated! He has soft fur like a bunny, but it was coarse and sorta spiky when he was dehydrated. Dehydration causes listlessness, lethargy and lack of appetite. Sound familiar?:thinking Nancy and I both thought Sammy was suffering MBD relapse or some other mysterious ailment. However, as soon as he was rehydrated it totally cleared. Let her crab about it but keep offering that water! :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

Just another question, when you started the MBD protocol what calcium were you using?

[jo_schmoe]

I just wanted to add something here.
MBD is a complicated disease. The first thing that is usually thought to be deficient is Calcium....and thats usually the case. BUT....there are other times when the animal is receiving the proper amount of Calcium but is deficient in other important things like Magnesium and Vit D...things that essential in the uptake of calcium in the bones. Without these things in balance with the calcium...the calcium does not absorb....leading to MBD.
If you are feeding HHBS...they are complete and you don't need to supplement.
You can try to give a bit more magnesium.....pine nuts are full of it!

[Jackie in Tampa]

I just wanted to add something here.
MBD is a complicated disease. The first thing that is usually thought to be deficient is Calcium....and thats usually the case. BUT....there are other times when the animal is receiving the proper amount of Calcium but is deficient in other important things like Magnesium and Vit D...things that essential in the uptake of calcium in the bones. Without these things in balance with the calcium...the calcium does not absorb....leading to MBD.
If you are feeding HHBS...they are complete and you don't need to supplement.
You can try to give a bit more magnesium.....pine nuts are full of it!pine nuts are loaded with phosphorus..:nono
Long term diet should have D and phosphorus and magnesium...but all in the correct ratios.
Pine nuts are a staple in high metabolism reds...but ideally not captive sqs.
Phosphorus stops absorbtion of calcium.
In high levels it interferes and will contribute to the causes of MBD.

[sdreamcatcher]

No advice, but I remember how worried I was about my boys, especially Butchie. Joey recovered fast; they had also gotten into something and with Butch it triggered MBD. He was soo sick for a few days I didn't know if he would pull through. He did, and is healthy and, well, let's just say "stocky" lol. They eat the hhb's now too. I hope your sweet girl pulls through; she is in my thoughts and prayers (you are too; I remember all too well the anxiety)!!

[AJandJR]

Just another question, when you started the MBD protocol what calcium were you using?

Calcium carbonate no D

[AJandJR]

No advice, but I remember how worried I was about my boys, especially Butchie. Joey recovered fast; they had also gotten into something and with Butch it triggered MBD. He was soo sick for a few days I didn't know if he would pull through. He did, and is healthy and, well, let's just say "stocky" lol. They eat the hhb's now too. I hope your sweet girl pulls through; she is in my thoughts and prayers (you are too; I remember all too well the anxiety)!!

Thanks so much! I hope that we get past this soon! I was a walking zombie todday at work...

[Milo's Mom]

She's getting aggrivated with me shoving the water in her face but she will thank me one day!! I'm staying on top of her with the water lol! I will get a pic as soon as I'm able. I just cleaned underneath her cage and am in the process of putting her heating pad underneath her cage once it dries. She is climbing her cage and currently laying on her branch. Her fur actually has been shedding a bit and has gone from soft soft to kinda coarse and almost looks like shes blowing her coat. This happened around the same time her scratch on her eye and forehead appeared.

The above is a sign of dehydration. As people have been saying, get that water into her.

If someone already said this, I am sorry to duplicate.

When they shed their coats change in appearance but they do not stand on end and get all pointy.

[island rehabber]

The above is a sign of dehydration. As people have been saying, get that water into her.

If someone already said this, I am sorry to duplicate.

When they shed their coats change in appearance but they do not stand on end and get all pointy.

Ditto! :goodpost

[ninjasteve]

i hope your little one is doing a lot better... i pray for a full recovery.. :)
and i agree with patjones..if anyone has any input about the flukers, please let us know.. i just hope it didnt contribute to nutty's condition where we had to put him down... i will be devastated...

[jo_schmoe]

pine nuts are loaded with phosphorus..:nono
Long term diet should have D and phosphorus and magnesium...but all in the correct ratios.
Pine nuts are a staple in high metabolism reds...but ideally not captive sqs.
Phosphorus stops absorbtion of calcium.
In high levels it interferes and will contribute to the causes of MBD.
Jackie....that depends on what pine nuts you are feeding.
Different types have different ratios.
Here is a basic breakdown of a pinyon nut
The high amounts of magnesium balance out the phosophorus. Also...the calcium helps as well.
They are not meant for every captive squirrel....but essential in the health of my guys.
I will say that when Flash was having a hard time with his bones.....( and I KNOW he was getting plenty of Calcium)...adding pine nuts helped his movements and energy level. ( it was the magnesium folks.)

Calcium, Ca mg 8.000
Iron, Fe mg 3.060
Magnesium, Mg mg 234.000
Phosphorus, P mg 35.000
Potassium, K mg 628.000
Sodium, Na mg 72.000
Zinc, Zn mg 4.280
Copper, Cu mg 1.035
Manganese, Mn mg 4.333

[AJandJR]

The above is a sign of dehydration. As people have been saying, get that water into her.

If someone already said this, I am sorry to duplicate.

When they shed their coats change in appearance but they do not stand on end and get all pointy.

Not a problem! I was just under the impression she was drinking plenty. Her water consumption has increased by 1.5x prior to all of this. It seems there is something causing this increase in water consumption. I cut the Flukers out and will not be supplementing any calcium other than what is in the HHB's. I assumed wrong when I gave her additional calcium supps with the blocks.

I put a shallow dish of water in her cage on top of her normal bottle. I have been forcing her to drink more than I ever have.

I am only feeding her veggies and yogurt right now.

[ninjasteve]

so she seems better then??
I know when we gave ours a big dose of calcium one day, and it wasnt flukers, the next day he was very lethargic and couldnt even hold himself up to eat..wanted to go right back to bed...we stopped the supplemental ca and by the next day he was alot better and dragging himself around...and then he pooped white not too long later.. so we kind of figured he had too much that day...just throwing that tidbit of info out there.. not sure yours poop is white or anything.

[Nancy in New York]

Not a problem! I was just under the impression she was drinking plenty. Her water consumption has increased by 1.5x prior to all of this. It seems there is something causing this increase in water consumption. I cut the Flukers out and will not be supplementing any calcium other than what is in the HHB's. I assumed wrong when I gave her additional calcium supps with the blocks.

I put a shallow dish of water in her cage on top of her normal bottle. I have been forcing her to drink more than I ever have.

I am only feeding her veggies and yogurt right now.


Sounds good, like she is on the right road. Keep up the great work, and I'm so happy that you found us.:grouphug

[AJandJR]

so she seems better then??
I know when we gave ours a big dose of calcium one day, and it wasnt flukers, the next day he was very lethargic and couldnt even hold himself up to eat..wanted to go right back to bed...we stopped the supplemental ca and by the next day he was alot better and dragging himself around...and then he pooped white not too long later.. so we kind of figured he had too much that day...just throwing that tidbit of info out there.. not sure yours poop is white or anything.


She seems better right now but I'm not backing off! I have been monitoring her bathroom habits and her stool is brown and sometimes black. Her urine hasn't really been any thicker than usual. Sometimes the smell is a bit stronger than other times... I went home for lunch to check on her and she was nonstop in her cage! From one side to the other climbing on the top upside down like nothing ever happened... I just hope she continues to move forward.

[ninjasteve]

awesome.. i hope she keeps moving forward too .. :)
i emailed dr emerson about the flukers..im hoping to hear back from her.if i do i will let you know what she says...
nutty only had the white for a little bit in his poop...at one time his poop was black looking, but we ruled out blood in it...and then his poop had been light brown but always harder..never really soft or diarrhea... and his urine was pretty clear most of the time.from what we could see anyways...my wife had brought a sample of his to the vet last week and it was just about clear...

[Jackie in Tampa]

need an update please.:grouphug

[AJandJR]

Update!
She seems to be her normal super energetic self yesterday and today! She is all over her cage from one side to the other hanging upside down and just being a squirrel. I gave her a half of HHB and she sat down (like a couch potatoe) normal for the first time and ate it up! She sits way back with her but on her bed legs out in front almost like she is eating ON her belly!! The cutest little stance when eating really!

What I have done to get here. With all of the great advice that I have received, we have...

*Cut her calcium supplementing out completely for the last few days.
*Forced her to drink plenty of water and was fed nothing but veggies.
*Gave her a little heating pad under her cage to keep her comfy!

Starting today she was given veggies for bfast, half a block for lunch and more veggies later. I will increase her a 1/4 of a block tomorrow and friday getting her up to 1 block. I will probably hold her at 1 block for at least the first week or two and then increase 1/4 of a block at a time if needed.

I will try to collect some urine in the morning and bring it in for a urine analysis. Maybe that will give us a pinpoint on the issue at hand.

It really seems that the route we are taking is working and we are so thankful for all of your efforts in getting us through this! I cannot say that enough!

To everyone that responded :thankyou !!

[Nancy in New York]

Update!
She seems to be her normal super energetic self yesterday and today! She is all over her cage from one side to the other hanging upside down and just being a squirrel. I gave her a half of HHB and she sat down (like a couch potatoe) normal for the first time and ate it up! She sits way back with her but on her bed legs out in front almost like she is eating ON her belly!! The cutest little stance when eating really!

What I have done to get here. With all of the great advice that I have received, we have...

*Cut her calcium supplementing out completely for the last few days.
*Forced her to drink plenty of water and was fed nothing but veggies.
*Gave her a little heating pad under her cage to keep her comfy!

Starting today she was given veggies for bfast, half a block for lunch and more veggies later. I will increase her a 1/4 of a block tomorrow and friday getting her up to 1 block. I will probably hold her at 1 block for at least the first week or two and then increase 1/4 of a block at a time if needed.

I will try to collect some urine in the morning and bring it in for a urine analysis. Maybe that will give us a pinpoint on the issue at hand.

It really seems that the route we are taking is working and we are so thankful for all of your efforts in getting us through this! I cannot say that enough!

To everyone that responded :thankyou !!


This really is a wonderful update. Just do everything that is suggested by the person that is helping you and know that you are in the very best of hands.

[ninjasteve]

way to go...awesome update :).. very nice to hear...
just for your information... I received an email back from Dr Emerson last night... if you search for her on here you will see a thread about her and the whole ca/d3 supplementing.. she confirmed to me that using the flukers did NOT contribute to nutty's ailment nor did we poison him at all, she is 100% of that...another person on here figured out that a pinch of flukers has approx. 100 IU of D3 in it...so its not a ton...Dr Emerson also said the common vitamin D they use in rat poison is vitamin D2 actually..and its in really high levels... so that was a relief.. I now feel better about our little baby, and that we didnt do anything wrong trying to help him... may he rest in peace.
again, great update , hope she keeps making great progress!!! :)

[AJandJR]

:D :thumbsup :crazy :thankyou :wahoo :alright.gif :jump :flash3 :multi :wott

I'm extremely happy that she is bouncing around her cage and playing with my hands again!! I still have her cage on its side so she can't climb to high. I'm excited but still very cautious and understand that she still has a long way to go!

The flukers may not have been bad without the blocks but it seems I may have been giving her too much calcium.

When she first had the original episode I started her out with the 600mg initial dose. After that it was 100mg every 3hrs=600mg per day. I kept her at 600mg every day for the first week then tappered down 100mg each week for the next three weeks. I had also started feeding her the blocks at the same time. I found out about Flukers on week 4 and started dusting her blocks while stopping the calcium carbonate. The UA should tell me exactly what was going on.

[island rehabber]

I'm oging to happily -- and cautiously -- move this thread into Non Life-Threatening Help Needed. Good work, AJand JR, keep it up! :thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

UA???urine analysis?? sorry not sure i know what you mean...
yea i just wanted to let you know about the flukers...i emailed island rehabber about it and she said she was going to get the word out..hope i didnt step on toes by saying this now on here..
when we were giving nutty his flukers, he wasnt eating his blocks...he had no interest in them anymore..kind of odd as he use to love them...so that was less vitamins/minerals and calcium he was getting in the day....we gave him a big dose on april 4th i think it was, around 500mg of calcium carbonate as we were advised to try putting him back on the mbd protocol and the next day he was literally a zombie and couldnt even hold himself up to eat his block or anything..poor little guy, he scared us to death...so we stopped the calcium all together and by that night he got a little better and by the next am he was moving about his cage good and ate his veggies etc...and later he pooped some white, we kind of surmised that was too much calcium for him...of course a couple different times in the past it was a roller coaster with him and at times we felt as if we never knew what was really going on with him..:( but dr emerson said it herself that it seems to her as if he had other issues going on with him...
congrats on her doing so well though...i hope she continues this:thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

:D :thumbsup :crazy :thankyou :wahoo :alright.gif :jump :flash3 :multi :wott

I'm extremely happy that she is bouncing around her cage and playing with my hands again!! I still have her cage on its side so she can't climb to high. I'm excited but still very cautious and understand that she still has a long way to go!

The flukers may not have been bad without the blocks but it seems I may have been giving her too much calcium.

When she first had the original episode I started her out with the 600mg initial dose. After that it was 100mg every 3hrs=600mg per day. I kept her at 600mg every day for the first week then tappered down 100mg each week for the next three weeks. I had also started feeding her the blocks at the same time. I found out about Flukers on week 4 and started dusting her blocks while stopping the calcium carbonate. The UA should tell me exactly what was going on.

We are currently looking for a vet in your area, or there abouts that will treat a squirrel. It's always nice to have a back up so that if things start going "south"....you can get to the problem immediately.
Great update. :grouphug

[AJandJR]

Sorry for the long delay but I wanted to update everyone that helped!

Our squirrel is doing absolutely great and has been acting like her regular self for a while now! The advice that we received here seems to be spot on and probably saved our little girls life! :multi

We are so greatful for this site! :thankyou all sooooo much!!!

[island rehabber]

What fabulous news! It's posts like yours that make every minute of every day we all spend here, helping and laughing and crying, SO WORTH IT!! You've made my day. Smooch that beautiful girlie for me, ok? :alright.gif

[Jackie in Tampa]

:D :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

Sorry for the long delay but I wanted to update everyone that helped!

Our squirrel is doing absolutely great and has been acting like her regular self for a while now! The advice that we received here seems to be spot on and probably saved our little girls life! :multi

We are so greatful for this site! :thankyou all sooooo much!!!

Thank you so much for taking the time to update on your little one.
This makes it so worth everything that we try to do;
when you know that you've made a difference in just one squirrel's life.:wahoo
And thanks to you following the protocol....you baby is on the road to recovery.:bowdown

[patjones]

Great news I am so glad your baby is doing well.