Finder comes on and will not relinquish the squirrel.....now what?

[Nancy in New York]

I see this happening over and over again.

Person comes on with a squirrel and DOES NOT want to relinquish in order to get it help. They think it's cute to raise themselves...:shakehead

What are the opinions on what we as a group can do.
Do we support the decision and try to keep the baby alive?
Do we insist on trying to find a rehabber/or a qualified person and getting the squirrel to the proper place?
I am only asking because time and time again,
these finders state right up front that they want to raise and have
NO intention of relinquishing.
I have gone with my gut before, and then been accused of being a bully.
Even when I KNOW this is going to be a terrible outcome if the baby stays with them,
do you still offer suggestions?
I have pleaded with people off board,
I have sent phone numbers....and they will NOT give the squirrel up.

I am sick of stroking the finder that has no intention of doing the right thing.
They are breaking laws and we are helping them.
And on the other hand, I feel if we don't offer advice, the squirrel is going to die.
Opinions?

[lilidukes]

Nancy I was feeling your pain just last night. Kept starting to post then didn't. I was really at a loss for what to do or suggest. Could I have helped that baby if I had had it hands on......hurts my heart to wonder.:dono

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy I was feeling your pain just last night. Kept starting to post then didn't. I was really at a loss for what to do or suggest. Could I have helped that baby if I had had it hands on......hurts my heart to wonder.:dono

I know Lisa, you helped me off board, thank you! But sometimes there is nothing we can do if they are determined that they want it back or that they don't trust anyone...we've seen it over and over....:shakehead

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

There are a lot of folks on the board who are gifted in turning a squirrel around, but that doesn't mean the new member has the same ability. Refusing to surrender a baby to somebody more skilled is just plain selfish.

There have been 2 losses in a short period of time here on the board. It's very frustrating. It could be that baby was too far gone to save, but who knows for sure. If it had been handed over to somebody else that knows what they are looking at and how to treat, the chances of survival are greater.

These folks need to have the stuffings scared out of them.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Nancy...We have to understand and remember that there are always going to be people who are one sandwich short of a picnic.

I was explaining to someone about Simon and said I give him pretty much anything he wants to eat, with in reason and make sure he eats healthy veggies that I eat, not the corn they make for squirrels in the bag at the store. They only saw what they wanted to see which was " I give him pretty much anything he wants" and just ignored the rest.
It makes you want to scream and reach through the computer and just shake them.

Look how many people have animals and dont take care of them, dogs cats, horses.....
Did you know that people are abandoning their horses in the woods here, in Ocala National forest.
They just drop them off and hope someone finds them or they think they can fend for themselves.

There will always be selfish people who dont care if someone thinks what they are doing is wrong.
All we can do is try by being pleasant and gentle coaxing , we get better results with Honey than vinegar. It hard to not get angry or mad at them but that approach will never work,, they will just leave and tell others not to come here.
I feel your pain and understand fully. My approach is quietly suggest and try to draw them in.:dono

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

My approach is quietly suggest and try to draw them in.:dono

I think Nancy usually takes that kind and gentle approach. I have no problem telling them they are selfish. Somebody just let me know when this is happening again.

[lilidukes]

Perhaps we need a morbid sticky filled with pics and posts from peeps not willing to pass off squirrels. The death notice posts, there are so many. And include pics of scalded milk babies etc.

[Nancy in New York]

Perhaps we need a morbid sticky filled with pics and posts from peeps not willing to pass off squirrels. The death notice posts, there are so many. And include pics of scalded milk babies etc.

I did once tell the finder that our forum "All Squirrels go to Heaven" is filled with finders that did not relinquish....:shakehead

[Milo's Mom]

As unfortunate as it is, personally, I feel that since we are here for the squirrels we should do our best to help the squirrel. Meaning...

...strongly recommend getting the baby to a qualified trusted rehabber.
...provide the names and numbers of the local qualified trusted rehabbers.
...provide info/suggestions for the immediate care/triage of the squirrel.
...provide proper diet info to offer the squirrel the best chance of survival.
...inform the finder/keeper that it is illegal and more times than not the squirrel will wild up, will not be happy, & will most likely begin to bite people and the cage.

As we all know, at the end of the day we all do what we as individuals think is best...feed this, feed that, release or not, cage or not, nest box or fleece cube beds...

It is very frustrating and we only know this because "we have been there and done that". Yes, it is very sad when we know what the outcome will most likely be...we can see it coming...it hurts our hearts...

We are here because of our undying love for the squirrels and only because of the love a couple had for their squirrel so many years ago. The power and prayers of TSB has worked miracles before and will continue to do so. I think we need to keep that in mind when we get frustrated.

Provide the info that is critically necessary for the SQUIRREL. It's hard, it's painful...BUT how did we all end up here? We ALL at one point in time had our first squirrel and we fell in love. We did everything wrong, BUT we found TSB and we learned...through our own personal experiences we've developed and we've become a strong community...the experts. We have not seen it all and we will ALL always be learning and the best thing to do with knowledge is to share it with others.

Our theme for the last Gathering...Saving the World, One Squirrel at a Time. The finder/keeper might not be the best person, BUT it is a person and that person has at least some heart or they would not have rescued the squirrel to begin with...let's teach them, mentor them, educate them...one day they will realize that we DO know what we are talking about and they should have listened from day one...short of storming the house and taking the squirrel (which is extremely illegal), the only thing we can do is provide/share or knowledge and do our best to help that One Squirrel.

(this is my personal opinion and I do not expect everyone to agree and that's okay...I am allowed to have my own opinions and I am allowed to share them.) :peace

[jo_schmoe]

Nancy, I know this....and its tough...
Here's my opinion....for what its worth.
At some point and time...we were all new...and we came on asking for help. That in itself is a sign that the finder cares.
You all took me under your wings...and taught me. No one ever asked me to get them to someone else...there was just an outpouring of help...sometimes late into the night.
Because Im not licensed in this state...( my state is the only one out of 50 that has NO wildlife rehabs) .....I relied on TSB for help....and encouragement throughout the whole very new....very hard task that was placed in front of me.
( back then I thought two little fox squirrel were hard...boy was I in for an awakening!!!)
I sure am glad that you all had faith in me.....and I think there is a lot of other people out there that come on this board deserve the same. I understand the frustration of trying to help someone new....only to be ignored....when you KNOW that how the squirrel is being cared for is improper or lethal. Thing is....we can't stop being who we are just because of a few dimwits.
If you folks didn't have the compassion, faith and understanding that you all do....I would have given up after Rocky and Rhoada...they may have even perished from my lack of knowledge and the Esbilac that so many web sites recommend. Baby Jude would have died with a broken back at the bottom of a tree, the Reds would have been gased, and Flash would have died in a bucket of moldy oats.
Thanks for having faith in me....because of you....none of that ever happened. The love that was shown to me...was easily passed right on to them. I think its only right to show others this....even though sometimes you want to reach through your monitor and slap a few. Continue to teach....the squirrels are counting on us!!! :peace :Love_Icon

[stepnstone]

I completely understand what your saying! I've been going through a scenario myself with one I've been monitoring, not only monitoring I'm supplying it's needs out of my pocket to ensure it's getting proper nutrition. He's wild, he needs to be released. The only way that can happen is if they give him up and let someone else do what needs to be done. Calling the authorities would only be a death sentence, it's extremely frustrating to say the least.

[SammysMom]

So may good words here...a true testament to who TSB really is. :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

Sometimes we just have to wonder if we don't need a SqWAT Team to do a rescue mission now and then. :soapbox :gun2 :soapbox
Much love to all who do so much good in a not-so-perfect world...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[stosh2010]

These folks need to have the stuffings scared out of them.
We need a "sticky" of all types of SAD photos...
BITE attack photos... Scratch and blood photos....accidentally injured ( in the house) squirrels... MBD affected squirrels... property damaged items(computer wires and keyboards,furniture, etc)
maybe realizing what "MIGHT" be the end result of their TOO CUTE to be TROUBLE--baby squirrel will give them pause ?????

Also an estimated BUDGET to properly feed a baby thru 6 months...and 12 months... ( plus the cost of even one VET visit...
sometimes only the loss of $$$$$ will sink into a Thick skull_____________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

but also give them the proper advice to nourish and protect their new house member...

[island rehabber]

As always, I'm humbled and deeply impressed with the wisdom, compassion and resilience of TSB members. You are ALL correct, IMHO, every word above. And yet that leaves us with the same problem as before: what to do when we "see it coming"....the finder means well, but is incapable of doing this right. Some folks are naturals -- they get it, from minute one. Others, not so much. *sigh* I can shame-facedly say that sometimes it depends on my own mood, how I deal with this scenario. Most of the time I'm patient.....but then there are times I :Cannon.
It's such an emotional scenario....so hard to keep an even temper!

[Nancy in New York]

I find myself doing the exact same thing stepnstone. I supply formula, syringes, fleece, HHB's because if they won't surrender, at least they can stay healthy.

I am not suggesting that they should all be surrendered. I know that many rehabbers are booked up, or some wildlife centers may put them down.

I have to also say, that I appreciate everyone's input so much for this very difficult subject....there is always a fine line. I remember when you came on jo and you were so open to ANY help you could receive....your only interest was to save the babies. It's people like you, when they write, you can tell that the squirrel is in the very best of hands, you were willing to listen, took all advice, gave updates...you are the ideal finder.

I think that everyone knows when a squirrel is in danger of immediately dying, we HAVE to offer all the suggestions we have pertaining to heat, dark, quiet, MBD protocol if it is warranted.

BUT it is terribly frustrating to know that there is a person willing to take the squirrel give it the meds he may need, the steroid he may need, the vet care he may need, and the finder still insists on doing nothing more than what can be offered on the board.

It's when you see the little one in a cardboard box, on top of dirty rags, and the finder has NO money for a cage, or veggies...but they want to keep...or when the squirrel is on deaths door, and you know that help is right around the corner....those are the ones that just break my heart....and I don't know how to handle those emergencies....:shakehead

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I think we have to look at this as a teacher sees their students. There will always be some who aren't interested, but there is always one or two who drink in every word .
I was a student here only a few months ago, I had had babies before but only hydrated them and took them to a rehhaber. This baby I have now was different. Rehabbers wanted to put him down to save room for a baby who could be released. So I kept him.
Because I was selfish?..I hope not...because he didnt deserve to die because his legs didnt work.
So I learned and asked and followed directions until I felt comfortable in my position of squirrel care giver. Now I do what I feel is best . I know I am one of the few , I think we all are, but the few are growing into the many , one squirrel at a time.
Not everyone is like us and we cant expect them to be. We can only try and keep trying. and some will follow and we need to be grateful for them.

[Jackie in Tampa]

everyone has such good ideas and views..

long time ago mountain momma helped me with this very same scenerio...
in the end it was simple... we ain't the sq police..

so i try to live by example...
I try to be supportive and we all know I rant..
I lose sleep...
I love sqs...people are so so..
I am not here to make friends, that is a bonus...
I am for helping the best we can.
sending supplies and type type type...

[island rehabber]

It's when you see the little one in a cardboard box, on top of dirty rags, and the finder has NO money for a cage, or veggies...but they want to keep...or when the squirrel is on deaths door, and you know that help is right around the corner....those are the ones that just break my heart....and I don't know how to handle those emergencies....:shakehead

Nancy I'm afraid we will never be without this scene, so long as selfish, idiotic people want to 'own cool animals'. :shakehead Look at the whole exotic pet trade.....why do you NEED to own an OCELOT, for chrissakes? Or a chimp that ends up tearing your best friend's face off? But the market is there, and the money too.

We have to take it individual by individual, I think. If they're getting it, it's ok...we can suggest and guide and teach and, who knows -- we'll have ourselves a few more Milo's Moms and jo schmoes and -- yeah, etc etc! :Love_Icon And the ones that come on with arrogance (I'll never forget the jerk who started out by saying 'and don't hassle me about ordering that Fox Valley CRAP'...) will get the treatment they deserve as well: tough love and Rehabber Bluntness: If you don't surrender the squirrel, it will die. If you don't surrender the squirrel, I will have my state agency pay you a visit. What more can we do? :dono :peace

[ninjasteve]

im kind of with joe schmoe on this one....the fact the finder found this site and is looking for guidance is a big plus, it shows they have heart and want to help out...no one ever wants to see or hear about anything bad happen to our precious squirrels...if the newbies are willing to listen and try and do everything that the most experienced tsb members on here say, then why tell them they can not keep it and raise it themselves??? everyone has to start out someplace...i am thankful i found this site as im sure nutty would not have made it as far as he did...i beat myself up day after day since we had him put down, wondering if there was anything else we should or could have done for him but the end result is what it is...we miss him more than words can ever describe, but are thankful we were able to share 5 wonderful years with our baby...someday we do want to adopt again...although we are not licensed or sub permitted, we do have a lot more knowledge than we did in the past..and that special thanks goes out to this forum and everyone on here. it really is a blessing to have a tight knit community like this who tries everything they can for our little babies out there....

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy I'm afraid we will never be without this scene, so long as selfish, idiotic people want to 'own cool animals'. :shakehead Look at the whole exotic pet trade.....why do you NEED to own an OCELOT, for chrissakes? Or a chimp that ends up tearing your best friend's face off? But the market is there, and the money too.

We have to take it individual by individual, I think. If they're getting it, it's ok...we can suggest and guide and teach and, who knows -- we'll have ourselves a few more Milo's Moms and jo schmoes and -- yeah, etc etc! :Love_Icon And the ones that come on with arrogance (I'll never forget the jerk who started out by saying 'and don't hassle me about ordering that Fox Valley CRAP'...) will get the treatment they deserve as well: tough love and Rehabber Bluntness: If you don't surrender the squirrel, it will die. If you don't surrender the squirrel, I will have my state agency pay you a visit. What more can we do? :dono :peace


Truer words Maura....:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead
And I do remember that guy saying that about the Fox Valley, he is also the one that thought it was fine for his squirrel to drink chocolate milk....UGH!

[SammysMom]

Okay, something that you said just now struck chord with me Nancy. The "no money for needs..." In life, it is interesting to watch how people react in certain situations. It seems to me that very often it is those who have nothing are most likely to want to "keep". Maybe approaching this from a financial standpoint is the way to go in. I now that I have a few people in my life who have very little. Every one of them tends to hoard. Things like accepting an offer for something they have no use for simply because it's free (i.e. dishwasher soap when no dishwasher :shakehead ). Maybe the threat of the expenses is where the emphasis would be more effective? Also the thought that becoming licensed is the way to avoid fines etc might help.
NOTHING will solve it every time...but we will all keep at it when there is even a slight chance that a squirrel could be helped. We also should remember that much as we want every one to survive, their chances would be nil if they were outdoors on their own. Every one saved is one who didn't die alone and outside in the cold.
God bless all of you for always helping even when someone is not listening to your very sound advice! :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[rocky63]

I am grateful to this Board and to the members who care so much. although it is call The Squirrel Board it's more than that. We care about everyone and everything. :thankyou :grouphug
We alway hope and look for a better out come. All we can do is to offer our help.

[JFerret]

Perhaps we need a morbid sticky filled with pics and posts from peeps not willing to pass off squirrels. The death notice posts, there are so many. And include pics of scalded milk babies etc.

That is a GREAT idea!!! IR, can you do that????? It should also be a must read for the finder!!! Kinda like shoving the reality in the face of these people!!

NINY, for everyone lost, you help many more to a good life!!!! Along with many others here that go above and beyond to help squirrels!! Hopefully, the clueless will do what is best for the animal!!

Jeanne

[Nancy in New York]

This board has helped countless squirrels and I am so blessed to be a part of it.
99% of the people that come here do so with the best intentions.
It's just difficult sometimes when you know that one will not survive....
when you just know it in your heart...and there is help reaching out to them
and they push that away.
And then still give the finder the big hugs
and tell them they did their best.:shakehead

[Nancy in New York]

That is a GREAT idea!!! IR, can you do that????? It should also be a must read for the finder!!! Kinda like shoving the reality in the face of these people!!

NINY, for everyone lost, you help many more to a good life!!!! Along with many others here that go above and beyond to help squirrels!! Hopefully, the clueless will do what is best for the animal!!

Jeanne

Awe so appreciated....and YOU were one that just came on looking for help....and got the little one to the right place. Bless YOU for that! :bowdown :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[NaturesGift]

I get alot of emails off my website and I know I can't take on every baby and to me if they listen and truly want to do right by a baby i will tell them to take the kiddo to a rehabber but sometimes in their areas the rehabbers are full. I will help them all I can. But to me that single squirrel is better with a rehabber with snuggle buddies..vet care but sometimes it's not doable.

My agent knows I can get overwhelmed and will let me let someone raise kids under my supervision .

But I will not sit by and watch a baby die and my agent will call those ppl and warn them. I want to get the baby when I can have a good shot at saving it..not last minute when it dies of something caused by the finder who thought it was to cute to turn over b.c they were in love

I know there are awesome pPl out there but there are alot of idiots to.

In the end it's not the animals that burn a rehabber out its often the Ppl

[SammysMom]

Well said NG! Always the people!!!:soapbox

[I Love Lucy]

I was pondering this very subject yesterday after a supposed well meaning animal lover handed me a dead baby she wanted me to save. She had the baby since Thursday and was instructed by another rehabber to call so I could take it. Needless to say she did not and he lost his life because of it. She fed him Pedialyte only and she aspirated him, causing him to die from drowning. She kept calling my other rehab friend for advice but followed none of it. Friday night she was crying to her that he couldnt breathe and again instructed to get him to me so he would have a chance to live. She did not call because he was supposedly getting better. Finally yesterday she called me in desperation. She was not even aware he was dead. By the time she met he was cold and stiff, obviously dead for many hours. When she opened the box I said he is dead and she cried to me and knew it was her fault. It took losing a life to teach this woman not to wait and let the experienced handle it. Hopefully this baby will not have died in vain and she will not do it again and tell others not to either. I asked her for the baby and gave him a proper respectful burial while I cried unconsolably for the senseless loss

[skarabrae]

I was pondering this very subject yesterday after a supposed well meaning animal lover handed me a dead baby she wanted me to save. She had the baby since Thursday and was instructed by another rehabber to call so I could take it. Needless to say she did not and he lost his life because of it. She fed him Pedialyte only and she aspirated him, causing him to die from drowning. She kept calling my other rehab friend for advice but followed none of it. Friday night she was crying to her that he couldnt breathe and again instructed to get him to me so he would have a chance to live. She did not call because he was supposedly getting better. Finally yesterday she called me in desperation. She was not even aware he was dead. By the time she met he was cold and stiff, obviously dead for many hours. When she opened the box I said he is dead and she cried to me and knew it was her fault. It took losing a life to teach this woman not to wait and let the experienced handle it. Hopefully this baby will not have died in vain and she will not do it again and tell others not to either. I asked her for the baby and gave him a proper respectful burial while I cried unconsolably for the senseless loss

:grouphug

[Nancy in New York]

I asked her for the baby and gave him a proper respectful burial while I cried unconsolably for the senseless loss
I love you for this....:Love_Icon

[Nmichel]

I would want people to come here for guidance and not judgement. You can't control what they do with the information they receive. I am sure that hundreds of squirrels are alive today because of the help they have gotten here.

[Ghostie]

im kind of with joe schmoe on this one....the fact the finder found this site and is looking for guidance is a big plus, it shows they have heart and want to help out...no one ever wants to see or hear about anything bad happen to our precious squirrels...if the newbies are willing to listen and try and do everything that the most experienced tsb members on here say, then why tell them they can not keep it and raise it themselves??? everyone has to start out someplace...i am thankful i found this site as im sure nutty would not have made it as far as he did...i beat myself up day after day since we had him put down, wondering if there was anything else we should or could have done for him but the end result is what it is...we miss him more than words can ever describe, but are thankful we were able to share 5 wonderful years with our baby...someday we do want to adopt again...although we are not licensed or sub permitted, we do have a lot more knowledge than we did in the past..and that special thanks goes out to this forum and everyone on here. it really is a blessing to have a tight knit community like this who tries everything they can for our little babies out there....



Without TSB, Boo Boo's never would have survived with me, and I would have had to give him to a Rehabber... But, Now Boo Boo's is almost a year old and ready to be released (Couldn't earlier due to it almost being winter when he was a baby)

There's just nothing like raising a squirrel... They're amazing animals.

[Pond Luvr]

Something said above horrified me. scalded milk babies? I am new obviously, but even i know test milk at every feeding to make sure it's the right temp.

I do not know everything, but i have a knack for raising things..new born baby birds, kitty's' racoons...and now rascall (grand daughter renamed him from bubba) No she isnt allowed to play or mess with him, but she knows he's in the other room and has seen him in the clear bin.

Anyway this thread is very interesting and makes good points. I think a sticky of all the bad things that can happen and do happen and all the effort and work and cage requirements, and food and formula etc, would be useful.
I know myself after rascall is grown and gone, the next ones to ever come my way are going to a rehabber that does it all the time. I spend most of my time checking his temps, his fleeces, i set alarms to check him when i do not need to. Don't get me wrong i'm happy to of saved him, but it isnt a game or a pet thats going to become a household fixture....It's exhausting. :) all the worry over every little thing, checking the forum non stop for the best things to do or not to do. I have my son in law making cages and nesting box from plans i found on here...It's expensive doing things the right way. The right way is important though, people need to realise that.

I know for a fact people think oh how adorable i can have a pet squirrel..then 6 months down the road toss it out the door when the cuteness wears off or its sick or its biting, and it has no idea what to do out there.

Great help around here, and great people. Thank you

[stepnstone]

{cut} Something said above horrified me. scalded milk babies? I am new obviously, but even i know test milk at every feeding to make sure it's the right temp.

Pond Luvr scalded milk is a milk boiling process sometimes used as a formula, it has no real nutritional value. Squirrels that have been fed/raised on it will be extremely under weight with poor development and often die. If not corrected, basically their bodies are starved.

[skippy]

Everyone is developing and becoming aware at different times in their own life journey. It's very difficult to be the observer/witness to the ignorance that comes along with watching the evolvement of compassion, selflessness and common sense in humans when situations arise as you all speak of, when a life is on the line. We have no control over others, but we can teach with patience, support and leading by example. Knowing that most rescuers want to, and will follow the lead, but not all, is the reason to continue the work you all do in extending your help to them. Keep healing the ones in your care and reach out, planting the seeds of responsible wildlife and squirrel care when you can. You all are making a difference in the lives of the animals all around the world, every moment of each day. Teachers for sure.
:) Nice work TSB! :)
And bless all the little ones that have sacrificed their lives while we learn how to live in unity with the natural world.

[island rehabber]

:goodpost Yes, keeping our focus on the positive work we do is the right path, for sure. Soon as we let ourselves get jaded ("people suck, people are stupid", etc) we start becoming bitter, and there is nothing more depressing to be around than a bitter, burned-out rehabber. Our little fur friends sense this, as well, and cannot thrive in a negative environment with a negative caregiver. I don't know if I'm expressing this very well, but I have seen that this is true.

[SammysMom]

You expressed it beautifully IR! It is an ongoing battle with any volunteer group. I am constantly reminding V.F.W. members that they MUST lose the list they have in their heads of who DIDN'T participate in some fundraiser or other event and focus on the list of who DID! When you focus on the negative, it draws everyone's attention to the negative. Focus on the positive and it accomplishes a heck of a lot more! People want to be part of a positive group so they tend to be more likely to emulate them! :grouphug TSB:grouphug

[Pond Luvr]

Stepnstone, Thank you. That is horrible, but i am glad to hear babies are not being burned..i was really upset at that.

[crazysquirrels]

Also keep in mind that some of these post may be people fishing for a rise out of those that dedicate their lives to help our small furry friends. PLEASE DO NOT put up an section of dead animals, please do not. The rainbow bridge is hard enough.n my case I was told over and over to give my first 2 squirrels up. I tried and nobody wanted them. As some of you know the story of Jackie and Rocky I went through great lengths to help them. Even criminal. Jackie was a success and happily released back to nature. Talula, while taking forever, will be free next month at the same place. I say we help as much as we can. I also think if you offer any one person money to save a squirrels life you will have people on here just looking to sell their squirrels or trapping them for cash.

[Nancy in New York]

With the majority of people that come on here, one of the first questions I ask is do you want us to try to find help,
a person that can take the squirrel. There are many that do not want to try to raise a squirrel.
I have never suggested having the squirrel taken anywhere if the person wants to raise and they seem capable and willing,
and I can almost guarantee that I have sent them supplies, so they start off on the right track.

I also do not think that children are good candidates to make that decision,
but recently I helped a 14 year old, because she was holding on to that squirrel come hell or high water,
no talking her out of it.
I sent many supplies to her, Fox Valley, syringes, nipples, fleece, and a heating pad,
and then her squirrel's demise came at the hands of her dogs.

The other night a person came on and in one of their first post said,
“Please help I am not taking her to a vet nor a rehabber if she makes it she makes it.”
Before reading that I had put out an SOS to a rehabber on our board who in turn gave me three numbers to call,
and there was also a rehabber willing to take the squirrel that was 2 hours away.
The squirrel passed.

There are many times when I know that rehabbers are in the middle of baby season,
and wildlife centers may also be overrun, I myself welcome people who want to help with raising the squirrel.
You can walk them through most of the basics.

By NO means am I suggesting that all emergencies should go to rehabbers
if there is a finder willing to help the squirrel, learn how to do things, and release. I welcome them.
And I can only pray for the others.

[CritterMom]

I have a point to make that has NOTHING to do with baby squirrels - it has to do with human nature and something that I see happen here occasionally and it makes me want to SCREAM. I call it the "Me toos."

When someone has taken the time to come here, read through the board, figure out how it works and posts a specific question - one that shows that they have very little info about what they are trying to do, one person will (hopefully) tactfully offer to help them find someone who can help them by taking the baby, and explain that it is the best thing to do. Then a few people read the thread and chime in with a bunch of "me toos" -each one more strident than the last. By that time I am shouting at my monitor "SHUT UP!!! You are gonna run them off!!"

If you have a bunch of people jumping on one person it is human nature for them to double down - even if they KNOW they are doing the wrong thing. NOTHING will convince someone to do something they shouldn't FASTER than a bunch of people yelling that they shouldn't. Many of them have good reasons why they don't want to, and bad experiences with rehabbers is NOT uncommon. I am very leery of the ones around me because I have had bad experiences (I never medicate cat bites...whoops, sorry, forgot you dropped that cardinal off and I left it outside to freeze to death, etc.) Many are afraid that someone will swoop in and take the baby and kill it. I rememeber picking up Mister P, thinking "I can legally crush him under my boot but taking him home and saving him is against the law."

Part of what I do for a living is getting people to do things that I need them to do, and I am pretty good at it. First, ask them if they want you to help them find a rehabber that we KNOW - one that will actually help them. If that is not going to happen, I say offer to help them - with methods, sources, links, and if you wish, actual supplies. I would hate to see this place turn into a "rehabbers clique" like so many boards do, because there are lots more squirrel babies than rehabbers and "civilians" who can learn and do are a godsend...and the raw material for future rehabbers.

But if you jump on them for wanting to do this themselves, do it knowing that it will (1) do NO good, (2) will make them leave and then you get to share a bit in the likely demise of the baby, and (3) you are really only doing it to make yourself feel better, and THAT is not for the squirrels.

So take a deep breath, then another deep breath, and a shot of Rescue Remedy or something similar but on the rocks, and wade in, and remember that you were in that place once.

And if they are deliberate trolls trying to get a rise from the animal lovers, contact IR and she can delicately place her boot on their neck and apply downward pressure...:D

[Garden71]

You can walk them through most of the basics.

By NO means am I suggesting that all emergencies should go to rehabbers
if there is a finder willing to help the squirrel, learn how to do things, and release. I welcome them.
And I can only pray for the others.
:goodpost




You said it Nancy!!!!!
I had no idea about TSB until Speedy a wild was sick.[/font]
Everyone on TSB has taught me allot more then you can read anywhere!!!!!! THANK GOD FOR TSB and the people on the board!!!!![/font]
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

You can walk them through most of the basics.

By NO means am I suggesting that all emergencies should go to rehabbers
if there is a finder willing to help the squirrel, learn how to do things, and release. I welcome them.
And I can only pray for the others.
:goodpost




You said it Nancy!!!!!
I had no idea about TSB until Speedy a wild was sick.[/font]
Everyone on TSB has taught me allot more then you can read anywhere!!!!!! THANK GOD FOR TSB and the people on the board!!!!![/font]
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup




And YOU Garden71 are the model finder....:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown
And you even sent the most adorable coffee cup, which I just used this morning by the way!:grouphug

[lilidukes]

The person NINY is referring to happened just the other night. Dealing with someone with the mentality of if it makes it it makes it is beyond difficult. I was so frustrated and heavy hearted over this little squirrel that I couldn't post. But I was willing to travel 2 hours both ways to supply meds, FV etc or take this poor squee. But my help wasn't really wanted. All we could do is await the death post you could feel coming.

This depressed me to no end and I believe it did NINY too.

And the other morning when NINY started this thread it was because of the frustration over this episode. We are here and willing to help and it causes untold pain to the ones who are rebuffed. Is there an answer here? I don't really think so. And another squirrel takes a piece of our hearts.....again.

[Garden71]

The person NINY is referring to happened just the other night. Dealing with someone with the mentality of if it makes it it makes it is beyond difficult. I was so frustrated and heavy hearted over this little squirrel that I couldn't post. But I was willing to travel 2 hours both ways to supply meds, FV etc or take this poor squee. But my help wasn't really wanted. All we could do is await the death post you could feel coming.

This depressed me to no end and I believe it did NINY too.

And the other morning when NINY started this thread it was because of the frustration over this episode. We are here and willing to help and it causes untold pain to the ones who are rebuffed. Is there an answer here? I don't really think so. And another squirrel takes a piece of our hearts.....again.

Sounds like a bad one.....:shakehead
But everyone on TSB has helped me and this is the FIRST place I turn to for help and would never second quess what anyone tells me!!!!!!
Some people are just that stupit don't kick yourself!!!!!
I wish I could do more.....

[ninjasteve]

:goodpost well said crittermom
I do have to point out , it can get really confusing on here as everyone has different views and advice to give, when nutty was going through whatever he actually did have, our heads spun a few times lol..but all in all , this is a great forum with a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people that can help save our little furry friends!!!

[DipityDane]

We get calls daily that involve "hostage situations"...So much so that i have developed a pretty successful protocol. The first thing to remember is to always act like you are on the finders side no matter how insistent they are. I know this is hard but you have to remember that just as with anything else....the harder you pull the more they will also. I always start by giving the low down plain and simple....in our state it is legal to keep wildlife....it is nOT however legal to rehabilitate with the intent of release without a permit.I am sure to let the finder know that unless they plan to keep said baby for its entire life it is best to surrender it now. When they still resist I give them the info they want....that info is feeding every 2hours....ordering formula...pooping...peeing...MBD...etc etc etc....basically make them see what they really are getting themselves into and really lay it on thick. It is generally at this point the negotiation ends and I make plans to meet to get the baby :p If they still refuse I make it clear that should they change their minds I am available. In most cases I get a call within a few hours. I also have written an article that we share on our facebook page and print to keep handy for these situations. It explains our intent in a nonthreatening and friendly manner which is as follows.



"But I wanna keep it myself!"
By Erin Cooksey
General class rehabilitator
Western Arkansas Wayward Critter Connection

Many time's we get asked "Can I raise this baby myself". Our answer quite simply is "No".....The reasoning behind this is broad and involves so much more than us underestimating one's capability to keep a critter warm and feed it formula. We believe knowledge is key and education an opportunity and so have provided the following information to help finders understand our reasoning.

Every spring rehabbers all over the state see the results of "I wanna raise it myself" and spend time, effort and tears attempting to undo damages caused by honestly well meaning individuals who thought caring for wildlife "wasn't hard"...or would "be interesting". We experience heartbreaking losses that hurt even more when we know they did not have to happen. We receive adult wildlife who become a handful for their finder yet are so imprinted it may take months before they are able to "wild up" for release. And we see the affects of improper nutrition made obvious by things as simple as obesity or as complex as metabolic disorders.
As the finder you play an integral role in the ultimate goal...so much so that we consider you a part of our "team". When you come upon a baby we ask that you step back and evaluate the situation objectively before making any decisions that might mean a less than favorable outcome for your orphan. Together we can ensure that all babies who pass through our hands get the best chance possible at their right to freedom.

A few fact's about orphaned wildlife:

- A large percentage of babies WILL die within the first few days in the care of a layman due to aspiration pneumonia.

- The experience of having nursed an orphaned puppy or kitten in no way prepares one for the intricate needs of baby wildlife.

- Many of the babies that do make it past infanthood will succumb to metabolic bone disease due to improper diet which can result in death or crippling deformities.

- In many states although wildlife can be kept as pets it cannot be rehabilitated for release nor transferred to another person by an unlicensed individual. This makes you the permanent owner of a wild animal that may live 10 years or more.

- Even if you have intentions of releasing a critter on the sly you must understand that unless handled minimally, conditioned properly, and released at a specific time of year a baby will be released with very poor odds for survival.

- Most veterinarians are either non educated about wildlife or have concerns about laws and regulations which will inhibit you from acquiring medical care should your wild pet become ill.

- Although its been told and heard a thousand times before...wild animals do NOT make pleasant pets and only a very tiny percentage of the population is adequately prepared to give a wild animal what it truly needs in order to live a happy, healthy, and fulfilled.

With these thought's in mind we hope you understand that we are not evil baby snatchers and want only what we know is best for the orphan in question. We ask that you understand how helpless we feel in a hostage situation when we KNOW, and can on most levels personally relate to, what the outcome will be 99% of the time. And once again we want to THANK you as the finder for working WITH us to give orphaned wildlife the absolute best chance at a fulfilled and joyful life in the wild from whence they came.

[SammysMom]

:thankyou Thank-you for sharing that wonderful information DD!!! :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost

[island rehabber]

Very good stuff, DD & Erin. We also have a sticky here on TSB which appears in most Forums that are accessible to first-time visitors on the site:

THINKING OF RAISING THAT BABY YOURSELF?
You've found a baby squirrel, and you've found The Squirrel Board. :thumbsup
You're here in the Emergency Forum and you've read a little bit about how to keep the baby alive. Maybe you've warmed the baby up and he's starting to get active and nuzzle your hand. Maybe you've tried a little warm Pedialyte and he loved it and he looks so cute while he's slurping that syringe and when he's all curled up in a ball. And you figure, smart person that you are, that you're doing so well, it can't be THAT hard to raise this baby yourself.......

Yes, it can.

Please ask yourself the following questions:


Are you prepared to go out NOW and find goat's milk to start him on formula, followed by Fox Valley Squirrel formula that can only be ordered ON LINE and costs upwards of $11 per canister?
Are you prepared to go wherever you have to go, NOW, to get a 1cc syringe to feed this baby properly without aspirating him?
Are you prepared starting right NOW to feed this baby as frequently as required by its age and condition, including getting up in the middle of the night?
Are you prepared to use, or go out and buy NOW, a heating pad without the automatic shut-off feature? It is an absolute MUST for baby squirrels. Other heat sources will not be adequate and the baby will die.
When your baby starts "clicking" and becomes lethargic because he accidentally inhaled a bit of formula, will you be able to get prescription-only antibiotics within the next 2 hours to save its life? There are no "OTC antibiotics" available in the USA that can be used for wildlife!

Are you prepared, LATER ON as the squirrel grows, to buy or build a series of appropriate cages for the animal's age, to buy expensive fresh produce which the squirrel requires for good health, to seek out skilled veterinary help even if you are in an "illegal state", and to learn how to "soft release" the squirrel in an appropriate release site so it will have a chance to survive in the wild?
Are you prepared to resist ALL temptation to "introduce" the squirrel to your household pets, thereby giving the squirrel the delusion that cats and dogs will not kill him when he is out in the wild? Are you prepared to keep the squirrel and the pets separate for the entire life of the squirrel? If you have answered NO to even one of these questions, you need to contact a qualified wildlife rehabilitator and we will help you do that.....
NOW.
_________

Sometimes it works. :tilt

[Garden71]

And YOU Garden71 are the model finder....:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown
And you even sent the most adorable coffee cup, which I just used this morning by the way!:grouphug

Thank you Nancy....
Thank you all at TSB!!!!!!!:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown

[JFerret]

Awe so appreciated....and YOU were one that just came on looking for help....and got the little one to the right place. Bless YOU for that! :bowdown :Love_Icon :Love_Icon


NINY and I Love Lucy,

I knew I did not have the proper set up/time needed to devote to raising my little boy, never raise a singleton if you can help it!! I've not heard back on the other baby!! I will be sure to give someone some major heck for that too!!! I have NO patience for people who choose to remain stupid and wind up killing an animal because of said stupidity!! Like the person I Love Lucy had to deal with, that person would have been made to bury that baby all the while I'm tell her off!!! You rehabbers have patience of a saint to be able to deal with such things!! :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown

I greatfully appreciate the fast help I was given!!! Many prayers to all of you, and, for all the injured/sick little one's!!!! :thankyou :grouphug


Jeanne

[shellyb1018]

Recently, I heard about a man who had a squirrel around my town. I was so eager to see or meet this person.I thought..wow...maybe he could teach me something new. In my part, it is illegal and in no way "normal" to have a squirrel. The big day came, I got to see this person, as he was walking the squirrel on a leash. The squirrel was very calm, very friendly to everyone surrounding it, then, I looked in its eyes (which were real red, worse than the redness Skeeter had just gone to the vet for because we were worried), then I asked, is it a girl or boy, and get this..the owner DID NOT EVEN know, my son and I had to tell him "rocky" was a girl. At that time, I watched the squirrel, asked what it ate, and he told me everything. As much as I wanted to tell this man how to take care of Rocky, he seemed he was more interested in the excitement of everyone. I wanted snatch that squirrely up and give her the proper life like Skeeter has, I knew I could not possibly take care of another squirrel. Another cage...who knows how my girl would respond...another vet trip..who knows what is wrong and the damage that this man is doing because of his ignorance.....and another food bill. That is not to mention the time and love that have to go into it everyday.
At that point, I said to this man, "do you have the internet? he says yes. I asked him to please go to "the squirrelboard.com" my son also told him how helpful this place is for anything you need to know about Rocky.
I can only hope that this man took our advice. I was worried for days about this squirrel knowing what danger he is doing to her. After my son tells me to stop worrying and know that we are giving Skeeter a great life, we are doing whats right for her, my mind was a little bit more rested. Because I knew I couldnt do anything.
I just feel that people are wrong who think that it is just an ordinary pet.
However, I also wanted to say when Skeeter was a baby, before I found this forum, I did find enough info to at least feed her right away, and I also was blessed to find a vet that is 20 minutes away that has a lot of experience with squirrels. But the main thing I was blessed with was finding this "nut house"
I come here every day, it may only be a few minutes at a time, but would be lost without it.
SO I thank all of you here, for being here, for being knowledgeable and caring enough to share your experiences and your expertise. My Skeeter girl is lucky she found my son and I, and We are lucky to have found TSB! :grouphug :thankyou :grouphug

[Madamelipstick]

Amen to that. I visit daily and sometimes more. I am so thankful for this site, the info and the loving people. For with out this site I might also be wandering aimlessly looking for answers that might come to late. Thank you to all of you have helped Fenwick and myself. In advance thanks for the future too.

[The Jerk]

OK..... I'm new here and with my opinion I expect this post will have me quickly banned. Let me tell two stories, my encounters with "EXPERTS".

1; Many years ago..... While looking for my escaped dog I found him at the local "humane society". As I waited to get my dog out of a pen filled with at least twenty random dogs, a man approaches with a large steel tank. It had a door in the end like a submarine door with the spin-down wheel latch.

As I am standing there this guy opens the hatch and starts stuffing the tank full of dogs. "What are you doing?" I ask, he replies "Euthanasia, I am gassing these animals". He continues to stuff crying squealing terrified dogs into his tank until there is no room to move and then slams the hatch and spins it tight.

At this point I am looking for the gas spigot and find none. "Where's the gas?" I ask. He is checking his watch and says in a pained condescending voice, "It's auto generated" and turns his back in an attempt to dismiss me.

I walk around to his face asking "What? What's that mean?". In blatant contempt he blurts out "It's Co2! It's AUTO GENERATED!" It slowly dawns on me what he is saying..... The dogs are breathing up the air in a sealed tank, when the oxygen is gone only Co2 remains. The dogs are then considered "gassed".

"You mean to tell me that you intend to suffocate a dozen dogs just like that?!!!" I ask. His answer, "Not suffocate, EUTHANIZE. It's really quite painless!" I am hearing a dozen panicked suffering crying dogs, their nails continually scratching, clawing and scratching. Sure.....Painless.

Let me tell you, I got my dog and didn't let the door hit my butt leaving there. I went directly to the police dept. where they assured me that all was legal and there was nothing they could do, that what I saw happened bi- weekly every week. More often as required.

I couldn't sleep for several months. My eyes would well up with tears at inopportune moments. A grown man, even a tough hard-guy type of man, would cry in the presence of his hardassed friends for a fleeting thought of those dogs.





2; One day while I am at work a large bird takes a bad gust of wind and crashes. My wife gets it out of the bushes and sits on the couch with it until I get home.

I look it over and find a compound fracture of it's left elbow. The joint was separated and the bone ends were visible. We immediately pack it up and take it to the vet. The vet identifies the bird as a Midnight Heron. The vet says the injury isn't life threatening, that he will fuse the joint. The bird will live but can never be returned to the wild. It will have to be cared for the rest of it's long life, perhaps twenty years.

The procedure takes about 45 minutes. I pay the vet $200. The vet gives me the name and number of a local rehabilitator for advice on the state permits and the needs of this beautiful bird. On the way to see the "EXPERT" the bird becomes active. It walks, moves freely, inspects it's arm cast, checks out both my wife and me. It seems very docile curious and intelligent.

The rehab lady after about an hour convinces us to leave the bird for a while for observation, we agree and leave. It was about 6:00 pm. The next afternoon my wife called to check on the bird's welfare. The "expert" announced that upon our leaving, she immediately "EUTHANIZED" it (hmm, there's that word again) She explained that she considered that it had been free, so death was preferable to a lifetime of captivity. She had wrung it's neck before we had traveled a block away!

Soooooooooo........ These are my experiences with "experts". Tale number 1 left me with a burning all consuming bitter HATRED for the dog-catcher and all of his confederates. Tale number 2 taught me to never trust a self-proclaimed "EXPERT". There seem to be more fools taking authoritative positions than not.

Lots of these people are adherents to a death cult. They believe that in certain situations death is preferable to life. Often an "EXPERT" will chose death over life. They make decisions for other living things...... and that decision is often death. They are delusional in their believing that death is preferable to ANY sub-optimal life. Death is death. If you wouldn't choose it for yourself, how DARE you thrust it on some innocent animal. Choose LIFE for God's sake!

(Huff, puff.... Whew! I could go on and tell what I REALLY think..... but I won't.... FOR NOW)

[Rocky1]

My personal opinion: The squirrel's life should be priority #1. The rest can follow.

[gardenjewel]

Help the squirrel by any means possible.... what ever it takes.

You will lose some but alot less than if this place did not exist or if this place started to brow beat all those looking for help. I think we all understand self sacrifice in order to help these babies!! Well, part of that sacrifice is trying to help and failing...watching a baby die....then trying to help again. Being there for the next person who is holding that little life in their hands!!!

Most, given the correct info will do a great job raising a squirrel no matter if its their first and only or their 40th 'legal' squirrel. Rehabbers need finders....you can't do it all. More squirrels will be saved with a community of educated first time finders than if only legal rehabbers and those they find worthy are helped. Almost none of us are worthy at first!!!!!!

Sometimes I cry when I visit here...ok alot of times I cry when I visit here....but most often they are tears of joy for a squirrel saved and loved.

Julia

[island rehabber]

Help the squirrel by any means possible.... what ever it takes.

You will lose some but alot less than if this place did not exist or if this place started to brow beat all those looking for help. I think we all understand self sacrifice in order to help these babies!! Well, part of that sacrifice is trying to help and failing...watching a baby die....then trying to help again. Being there for the next person who is holding that little life in their hands!!!

Most, given the correct info will do a great job raising a squirrel no matter if its their first and only or their 40th 'legal' squirrel. Rehabbers need finders....you can't do it all. More squirrels will be saved with a community of educated first time finders than if only legal rehabbers and those they find worthy are helped. Almost none of us are worthy at first!!!!!!

Sometimes I cry when I visit here...ok alot of times I cry when I visit here....but most often they are tears of joy for a squirrel saved and loved.



Julia

:goodpost LOVE this post. :serene

[TubeDriver]

I think MM's post below is pretty much what I think. You can try your best to educate people, help them when possible, convince them to do what is best for the squirrel and then cross your fingers. What are the real alternatives? Not helping and letting squirrels die?

Life is not fair and people all have differing levels of expertise, ability, resources etc. Some squirrels (and pets and children etc) will not have the perfect home and parents. We should not write them off as unworthy or beyond help. Try our best to help, to point out what is best for the squirrel and to look at each instance on a case by case basis.



As unfortunate as it is, personally, I feel that since we are here for the squirrels we should do our best to help the squirrel. Meaning...

...strongly recommend getting the baby to a qualified trusted rehabber.
...provide the names and numbers of the local qualified trusted rehabbers.
...provide info/suggestions for the immediate care/triage of the squirrel.
...provide proper diet info to offer the squirrel the best chance of survival.
...inform the finder/keeper that it is illegal and more times than not the squirrel will wild up, will not be happy, & will most likely begin to bite people and the cage.

As we all know, at the end of the day we all do what we as individuals think is best...feed this, feed that, release or not, cage or not, nest box or fleece cube beds...

It is very frustrating and we only know this because "we have been there and done that". Yes, it is very sad when we know what the outcome will most likely be...we can see it coming...it hurts our hearts...

We are here because of our undying love for the squirrels and only because of the love a couple had for their squirrel so many years ago. The power and prayers of TSB has worked miracles before and will continue to do so. I think we need to keep that in mind when we get frustrated.

Provide the info that is critically necessary for the SQUIRREL. It's hard, it's painful...BUT how did we all end up here? We ALL at one point in time had our first squirrel and we fell in love. We did everything wrong, BUT we found TSB and we learned...through our own personal experiences we've developed and we've become a strong community...the experts. We have not seen it all and we will ALL always be learning and the best thing to do with knowledge is to share it with others.

Our theme for the last Gathering...Saving the World, One Squirrel at a Time. The finder/keeper might not be the best person, BUT it is a person and that person has at least some heart or they would not have rescued the squirrel to begin with...let's teach them, mentor them, educate them...one day they will realize that we DO know what we are talking about and they should have listened from day one...short of storming the house and taking the squirrel (which is extremely illegal), the only thing we can do is provide/share or knowledge and do our best to help that One Squirrel.

(this is my personal opinion and I do not expect everyone to agree and that's okay...I am allowed to have my own opinions and I am allowed to share them.) :peace

[stosh2010]

OK..... I'm new here and with my opinion I expect this post will have me quickly banned. Let me tell two stories, my encounters with "EXPERTS".

1; Many years ago..... While looking for my escaped dog I found him at the local "humane society". As I waited to get my dog out of a pen filled with at least twenty random dogs, a man approaches with a large steel tank. It had a door in the end like a submarine door with the spin-down wheel latch.

As I am standing there this guy opens the hatch and starts stuffing the tank full of dogs. "What are you doing?" I ask, he replies "Euthanasia, I am gassing these animals". He continues to stuff crying squealing terrified dogs into his tank until there is no room to move and then slams the hatch and spins it tight.



"You mean to tell me that you intend to suffocate a dozen dogs just like that?!!!" I ask. His answer, "Not suffocate, EUTHANIZE. It's really quite painless!" I am hearing a dozen panicked suffering crying dogs, their nails continually scratching, clawing and scratching. Sure.....Painless.


O.M.G. i had no idea that this "procedure" was legal & common. Barbaric. what state did this occur in ?

[nkg0404]

Just from a "newb" perspective, I've been reading tons of threads for a few days now. I've seen where senior members have been extremely kind and I've seen when you have shown "tough" love. For those who feel you guys are being to harsh....direct them to the sugar glider world, lmao. Now, that community is HARSH! I came to this thread two years ago when someone mistakenly took my Toby as a glider. He had been caught by some kind of bird (vet thought hawk by the size of the claw marks) and then dropped to concrete. Then the finder found him by stepping on him. You guys (Pappy especially) were amazing with helping me! Some were straight to the point but I never took as harsh. Just passionate. Then a few weeks ago with Binx. The first question asked was if I wanted help finding someone. There wasn't anyone. I was given contact info for a member who lives I the nest state over and she has been great. Was even able to call her when a friend (who lived near her) found a baby.

My point through all this rambling, after all the threads I've read, you guys hardly ever use what I would consider "tough" love. Maybe it's my age, but I do foster for a GA glider rescue for my area and with my experience, those who get offended my the "tough " love method, usually do so because of guilt. They know what needs to be done for the babies but instead choose what they want. I don't think you guys should feel guilty when you have to resort to it. You should all be given medals in my opinion. If the world was filled with more people like you, every living thing human and animal alike, would be a btter place. We foster for the gliders and for a local dog rescue and I assure you....you're tough love is welcomed any day!

Just my 2 measly cents worth :serene

[TubeDriver]

I am glad I did not see this, I am not sure how I would react to seeing this awful procedure?


O.M.G. i had no idea that this "procedure" was legal & common. Barbaric. what state did this occur in ?

[LaurelLynn]

OK..... I'm new here and with my opinion I expect this post will have me quickly banned. Let me tell two stories, my encounters with "EXPERTS".

1; Many years ago..... While looking for my escaped dog I found him at the local "humane society". As I waited to get my dog out of a pen filled with at least twenty random dogs, a man approaches with a large steel tank. It had a door in the end like a submarine door with the spin-down wheel latch.

As I am standing there this guy opens the hatch and starts stuffing the tank full of dogs. "What are you doing?" I ask, he replies "Euthanasia, I am gassing these animals". He continues to stuff crying squealing terrified dogs into his tank until there is no room to move and then slams the hatch and spins it tight.

At this point I am looking for the gas spigot and find none. "Where's the gas?" I ask. He is checking his watch and says in a pained condescending voice, "It's auto generated" and turns his back in an attempt to dismiss me.

I walk around to his face asking "What? What's that mean?". In blatant contempt he blurts out "It's Co2! It's AUTO GENERATED!" It slowly dawns on me what he is saying..... The dogs are breathing up the air in a sealed tank, when the oxygen is gone only Co2 remains. The dogs are then considered "gassed".

"You mean to tell me that you intend to suffocate a dozen dogs just like that?!!!" I ask. His answer, "Not suffocate, EUTHANIZE. It's really quite painless!" I am hearing a dozen panicked suffering crying dogs, their nails continually scratching, clawing and scratching. Sure.....Painless.

Let me tell you, I got my dog and didn't let the door hit my butt leaving there. I went directly to the police dept. where they assured me that all was legal and there was nothing they could do, that what I saw happened bi- weekly every week. More often as required.

I couldn't sleep for several months. My eyes would well up with tears at inopportune moments. A grown man, even a tough hard-guy type of man, would cry in the presence of his hardassed friends for a fleeting thought of those dogs.





2; One day while I am at work a large bird takes a bad gust of wind and crashes. My wife gets it out of the bushes and sits on the couch with it until I get home.

I look it over and find a compound fracture of it's left elbow. The joint was separated and the bone ends were visible. We immediately pack it up and take it to the vet. The vet identifies the bird as a Midnight Heron. The vet says the injury isn't life threatening, that he will fuse the joint. The bird will live but can never be returned to the wild. It will have to be cared for the rest of it's long life, perhaps twenty years.

The procedure takes about 45 minutes. I pay the vet $200. The vet gives me the name and number of a local rehabilitator for advice on the state permits and the needs of this beautiful bird. On the way to see the "EXPERT" the bird becomes active. It walks, moves freely, inspects it's arm cast, checks out both my wife and me. It seems very docile curious and intelligent.

The rehab lady after about an hour convinces us to leave the bird for a while for observation, we agree and leave. It was about 6:00 pm. The next afternoon my wife called to check on the bird's welfare. The "expert" announced that upon our leaving, she immediately "EUTHANIZED" it (hmm, there's that word again) She explained that she considered that it had been free, so death was preferable to a lifetime of captivity. She had wrung it's neck before we had traveled a block away!

Soooooooooo........ These are my experiences with "experts". Tale number 1 left me with a burning all consuming bitter HATRED for the dog-catcher and all of his confederates. Tale number 2 taught me to never trust a self-proclaimed "EXPERT". There seem to be more fools taking authoritative positions than not.

Lots of these people are adherents to a death cult. They believe that in certain situations death is preferable to life. Often an "EXPERT" will chose death over life. They make decisions for other living things...... and that decision is often death. They are delusional in their believing that death is preferable to ANY sub-optimal life. Death is death. If you wouldn't choose it for yourself, how DARE you thrust it on some innocent animal. Choose LIFE for God's sake!

(Huff, puff.... Whew! I could go on and tell what I REALLY think..... but I won't.... FOR NOW)

It breaks my heart to hear stories like this :-(

But not all 'experts' are equal in compassion. And we shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of others though we are all in the'rehab' field

I personally will fight with everything I have for every creature that comes to me. Sometimes that means providing round the clock care, not sleeping longer than an hour at a time for THREE WEEKS, to pull a baby through a brain infection like I did with my rainbow. ...

And sometimes it means choosing euthanasia to relieve suffering I can't heal. My worst rehab moment ever was a newborn cottontail attacked by a dog. She arrived very late at night with the leg so badly fractured, shards of bone were sticking out. She was crying in pain. I had no vet that late at night and couldn't relieve her pain. The only thing I could offer her was relief from her short tragic life. And the only method I had available to do that, was cervical dislocation. It was a horrible experience and made me physically sick. I cried for days.

And I also tried to rehab an adult wild with spinal trauma that every other facility would have euthanized upon arrival. She was in care almost a month and was miserable and terrified. She would throw herself against the cage and cause more injuries. It became cruel to continue treatment and she was also humanly euthanized because a life as a non releasable would have been torture for her

So I am one of the so called'experts' that will give everything when there's the slightest chance but I'm also an 'expert' who has taken life as well.

I know this is off topic but I wanted to respond as someone who has had to sometimes make the difficult decisions that aren't always understood by those who aren't forced to make them

[tomcics]

Thanks for your post LaurelLynn, I would not want to be in your shoes to have made those heart-wrenching decisions but I trust you 100% to have made the decision in the best interests of the creature that was suffering.