Flukers Calcium With D3

[patjones]

Has anyone used or have any opinion about Flukers Calcium with D3 for reptiles. I bought it on the spur of the moment when I was looking at hammocks for squirrels. I have an adult grey who I do my best to feed a balanced diet but he ignores his yogurt most of the time if I dust things with Fox Valley he turns his nose up at them so I was planning on dusting his almond treats with it He will eat them that way. The container says Calcium Carbonate and vitamin d3 suplement not less than 36% calcium and 100,000 d3 IU per pound

[Rhapsody]

I used the product on crickets for my sons two bearded dragons and it worked GREAT!! - but I am not sure what others are going to say about using it with squirrels. :dono

[patjones]

As I scanned it quickly it said for mice also so I though ok rodents right? but on closer inspection it said to dip the back half of the mouse in it LOL I did not realize the mouse was the food right away:thinking

[sassysquirrel]

Are you having trouble with Nougie eating?????

[patjones]

Oh he eats great gaining weight even but he is very picky about what he eats. Usually ignores his yogurt and blocks completely I have tried boo balls flyer blocks I had left over and HHBS and Kaytee blocks no dice. Eats vegies during the day while I am at work but the only food he will take from me and eat right away is nuts. He gets about four or five almonds or pecan halves per day and I was thinking about dusting those since he does not get a lot of sun and I want to make sure he gets enough calcium. Nothing specific so I thought I would get some opinions from the nutrition gurus. Preventive maintenence I guess. I could cut out the nuts all together but it is such a bonding thing he knows when I get home it is love and treats time the first thing I do when I walk in the door from work is open his cage and he is right on top of my shoulder happy and playing.

[sassysquirrel]

He will be soooo mad if you cut out the nuts -are you giving him the yobaby (vanilla) yogurt????He would normally eat that here with some fruit baby food beside it - Have you tried adding more nuts to booballs and maybe more almond butter???? I think he is probably ok - he has always been very healthy - maybe someone else will have some suggestions

[ninjasteve]

we actually used it on our nutty...wasnt for too long..maybe 4 days??? didnt notice much with it....we got it becasue there was a thread on here from dr emerson about nutrabol i think...so our rehabber said to go with the flukers as its almost identical to that stuff which is apparently only available in the UK?? and we only gave him a pinch a day... we were told its detrimental to get the d3 so thats why we got it..well needless to say we stopped his calcium all together after last friday as we feared he was getting too much calcium...so i just wanted to let you know we tried it, but not for long, cant say much on it.
RIP Nutty...we miss you lots.
on happier note....we have some hhbs left and some of nutty's snacks..we are feeding our outdoor squirrels...told them from nuttys heart to yours.. they were happy :) good luck with this..hope it works well for you.

[patjones]

Thanks Ninjasteve I followed your storey I was so sad for your loss. I have cried more for lost squirrels than any person I have ever lost there is just that something about them but you already know that.

[patjones]

I found this on some dog MD page as I was trying to research this on my own. I wish someone with some medical background was here so they could make sense of it all. Steve it looks to me like this stuff was designed to kill squirrels and the symptoms described sound like some of the ones you had. I think I will be giving the Flukers to the trash can and if it turns out that this is really bad for them maybe we should warn against using it. Of course I could be wrong and throwing a perfectly good suplement away I just don't know for sure so I guess better safe than sorry





"Hypercalcemic Agent Poisoning in Dogs




Hypercalcemia is defined as abnormally elevated calcium levels in the blood. Of the various types of substances that are poisonous to dogs, there are those that include hypercalcemic agents. Hypercalcemic agents contain vitamin D, medically known as cholecalciferol, which works by raising the calcium content in blood serum to high toxic levels, resulting in cardiac arrhythmias, and then death. Hypercalcemic agents are popular for use in rodent poisons, since rodents do not have resistance to cholecalciferol. In most cases, poisons containing cholecalciferol must be directly consumed by an animal for it to fall ill, however the exception to this is when a dog eats a poisoned rodent.



Dogs that have consumed hypercalcemic poisons typically will not show immediate symptoms. Signs of poisoning may show 18 to 36 hours after the cholecalciferol containing poison was consumed. Left untreated, a dog can die from cholecalciferol poisoning and the resulting hypercalcemia. If the dog does survive, it will have elevated calcium levels for weeks after the poisoning, and this excess of calcium can lead to secondary health problems, like renal failure.


Symptoms



Fatigue
Vomiting
Increased thirst
Frequent urination
Generalized weakness
Seizures
Muscle spasms
Elevated blood serum calcium
"

[skarabrae]

As I scanned it quickly it said for mice also so I though ok rodents right? but on closer inspection it said to dip the back half of the mouse in it LOL I did not realize the mouse was the food right away:thinking

HAH! :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

I can't stop laughing... that's hilarious!

[ninjasteve]

hi there pat...i didnt notice you replied this past weekend... you really think that stuff kills squirrels???? now im really upset and concerned....

[patjones]

I am not sure but it kind of makes sense since we are always stuffing calcium into squirrels and then we add the one thing that could cause it to become toxic, Wikipedia says that rodents for some reason are especially succeptible to vit d3 the rat poison is actually called the real name of vit d3

"Cholecalciferol is a form of vitamin D, also called vitamin D3 or calcitriol

Rodents are somewhat more susceptible to high doses than other species, and cholecalciferol has been used in poison bait for the control of these pests. It has been claimed that the compound is less toxic to non-target species. However, in practice it has been found that use of cholecalciferol in rodenticides represents a significant hazard to other animals, such as dogs and cats. "Cholecalciferol produces hypercalcemia, which results in systemic calcification of soft tissue, leading to renal failure, cardiac abnormalities, hypertension, CNS depression, and GI upset. Signs generally develop within 18-36 hr of ingestion and can include depression, anorexia, polyuria, and polydipsia."[17]'
When I search the board for Flukers most of the results are suspected MBD cases so I am just trying to put the pieces together right or wrong it is very suspicios that your squirrel and the one currenty in the help section share the flukers and some of the same symptoms. This stuff was made for reptiles so I was just guessing when I bought it for Nougie because the flyer folks use the reptocal on worms for them I thought another reptile type must be fine. Looks like Vit D3 is just too risky for me to use on my squirrel especially since in higher doses it is something that is used to target kill rodents since they are singly sensitive to it and that makes it safer for other animals that may come in contact with them.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

HEY Pat:wave123
I use Repto-cal with D3, same thing. The girls who rehab squirrels for about 12 years in DR Emersons office use it. Simon loves his corn on the cob and since I am a believer of enjoying life I let him eat corn on the cob BUT it always has repto-cal on it to balance out .

[ninjasteve]

ok pat , thanks for the info.. i can tell you we only gave nutty 1 tiny pinch , once a day at lunch and it was only for 4 or 5 days in a row..then we stopped calcium all together in fear of him perhaps getting too much...so im not so sure the flukers contributed to his death or killed him..i may try and get in contact with dr emerson to ask that question....as i said, someone else on here was stressing to get d3 in him as they supposedly need it for absorption of ca etc?? so we got that..and i see sweet simons mommy uses repta cal and i believe its the same stuff pretty much??? just very alarming and concerning to me, i would be devastated to find out we did this to him in the end :(

[Jackie in Tampa]

I have never seen a reptile with a bushy tail:shakehead

Please private message 4Skwerlz Pat, she will help you decipher your research.

The ready made suppliments, either human or avian/reptile have ratios geared to those species.
All species require different percentages of D and calcium..

I know what has worked for me many times..
I use calcium to treat MBD and will continue to do so.

To prevent MBD, a correct diet would include D, but it needs to be balanced with all the other vitamins and minerals...FOR SQS.

[Jackie in Tampa]

G, your box was full, but not anymore!:thumbsup

[patjones]

I have never seen a reptile with a bushy tail:shakehead

Please private message 4Skwerlz Pat, she will help you decipher your research.

The ready made suppliments, either human or avian/reptile have ratios geared to those species.
All species require different percentages of D and calcium..

I know what has worked for me many times..
I use calcium to treat MBD and will continue to do so.

To prevent MBD, a correct diet would include D, but it needs to be balanced with all the other vitamins and minerals...FOR SQS.

Thanks Jackie I sent a detailed message so she can understand what my concerns were. I know I was originally looking for a shortcut since I am weak and let him have nuts every morning and every night when I get home. I don't put them in his vegie dish but he knows when he jumps on me I will give him an almond or a pecan half. for a 500 gram squirrel what do you think is a safe amount of nuts for treats I am at work all day so he has to eat some of his good food but he will not eat any kind of blocks I have made boo balls ordered flyer blocks HHBS and the new wild blocks he ignores them all

[sassysquirrel]

Have you tried the picky eater blocks?
Have you tried putting peanut butter or almond butter on the blocks? sometimes that works
Someone on TSB - talks about soaking blocks in peanut butter - somehow melting the peanut butter in the microwave - that might be worth a try
From your pics he looks like he has gained weight - he still looks very healthy - so he has to be eating something that is good for him

When Nougie was younger - I would cook the broc/caul/carrots in a pan with some water - until very soft - they put in the blender - add a little Fox Valley and feed it to him in a syringe - I don't know if he would take that now - I know he does not like Fox Valley in anything - but maybe just feed him the veggies

When Hank eats his blocks - Is Nougie anywhere close???? Maybe if he sees Hank with his - he might want to take Hanks or maybe want some himself - I just dont now - Im out of suggestions

[redwuff]

Pat, I came on this board as the quintesntial inexperienc ed person and had fed my squirrel everything but the only thing that she wanted to eat was nuts. I was afraid of her starving to death so I continued feeding nuts, all the while despertely trying to eat better stuff. By now I knew what better stuff was. Folks set me straight in that the nuts had to totally go until Buffy was eating very reliably a healthy diet. It was agonizing to watch her hold out, but it was also agonizing knowing that unless she got on a better diet, she was going to die an awful death. Many months later, she eats HHB's and some other concoctions that have rodent block in them. She MIGHT get 3 nuts a week, but mostly the nuts are ground up in other things. I feel elated when I see her munching on her HHB.

What I am trying to tell you is that you have to get tough with nougie and cut out the nuts. Read the write-up that 4skerwls has on getting picky eaters to eat. That was the turning point for me.

Trysh

[island rehabber]

What I am trying to tell you is that you have to get tough with nougie and cut out the nuts. Read the write-up that 4skerwls has on getting picky eaters to eat. That was the turning point for me.

Trysh
:goodpost:bowdown:goodpost:bowdown:goodpost

This says it all. If you are going to have a healthy NR or pet squirrel you MUST grow up and get tough and not 'be weak'. The life of your squirrel depends completely on YOU. You have removed him from his natural habitat, now only YOU can create a healthy habitat for him. Unfortunately, jobs and kids and weekend plans and budgets and other stuff you'd rather be doing MUST take a back seat to the needs of the squirrel until the squirrel is stabilized. (Yes I know this is not normal.....it's why we don't recommend that most people keep squirrels, right? Who would want to live like this?:crazy) But if you want to do it right and not have the squirrel go down with MBD -- this is how it is. :peace

[Jackie in Tampa]

Pat, I came on this board as the quintesntial inexperienc ed person and had fed my squirrel everything but the only thing that she wanted to eat was nuts. I was afraid of her starving to death so I continued feeding nuts, all the while despertely trying to eat better stuff. By now I knew what better stuff was. Folks set me straight in that the nuts had to totally go until Buffy was eating very reliably a healthy diet. It was agonizing to watch her hold out, but it was also agonizing knowing that unless she got on a better diet, she was going to die an awful death. Many months later, she eats HHB's and some other concoctions that have rodent block in them. She MIGHT get 3 nuts a week, but mostly the nuts are ground up in other things. I feel elated when I see her munching on her HHB.

What I am trying to tell you is that you have to get tough with nougie and cut out the nuts. Read the write-up that 4skerwls has on getting picky eaters to eat. That was the turning point for me.

Trysh this is soooo true...
Tough Love or BUST!
Pat..I do feed nuts..
I alway have...
but for the sqs that do not eat their blocks (Central is HHB crowd),
NO NUTS!
NO CHEATING..
until you have watched a sq die in seizure, you have no clue why I am 100% tough love.
I have been brought sqs that seized violently for hours.
4skwerlz will explain why you need to feed correctly thru her research, I will tell you the hands on...)PS, some of my cases were part of her research...she has been on the phone many times while I was triaging serious cases, it took both of us many times to get a sq outta the woods)

sqs will not die if you dont give them nuts, they will pout.
they will get hungry
they will eat veggies and HHBs if they do not have nuts.
Once good habits are established with every sq in your house...you can feed a few nuts and sleep well!

otherwise you are going to find yourself here one day getting seizure advise...
let's not go there!
Love ya buddy, learn fast, save more!:Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

if anyone finds anything out about this flukers stuff, please do let me know as we fed nutty it for like 5 days I think..he got a tiny pinch once a day...i just want to make sure that stuff didnt contribute to him being like he was and then us having to make that god aweful decision on having him put down.
thanks everyone...

[SammysMom]

Can someone who has Flukers please look at the bottle and see what the sodium content is? I keep going back to the fact that dehydration seems to be part of this problem with these squirrels. Is it possible that it is higher in sodium as it is for reptiles?:thinking

[ninjasteve]

im at work right now, but will look at it when i get home... i know nutty did drink a lot of water in one day at one time.. just cant remember if it was during the time we had given him the flukers or not.. :(....
i did personally email Dr Emerson about this..i sure hope she gets back to me with answers..in the meantime, if anyone else finds out anything, please do share.
thanks

[island rehabber]

There are a number of unanswered questions here, and I don't believe anyone active on TSB right now has the expertise needed to adequately answer those questions. I fear widespread panic SO...I am closing this thread for now. ninjasteve, when and if you get a response from Dr E could you please share it with us? Just PM me, and I will re-open the thread at that time.

:peace