Bloat protocol

[MiriamS]

It took me longer than it should have to notice this was going on but Truffle is bloated. She came in and had a few feedings of Pedialyte, then diluted FV, started pooping and I thought everything was fine and worked her up to regular FV/heavy cream formula. I stupidly remarked on how adorable her "buddha belly" was forgetting how much babies her size should be pooping. She's 153g and would make four tiny poops at every feeding.

It took seeing how much :poop a few pinkies produced for it to hit me that something was wrong. The pinkies were on UDoWhat's goat's milk/FV combo and Truffle was on FV with heavy cream formula. I gave her a warm water bath and massage, stopped formula and switched to 6cc warm Pedialyte with 0.3mL of infant simethicone every three hours.

After twelve hours of this, I was quite relieved to see that she pooped on her own and her tummy seemed squishier. I thought things had started properly moving again so I gave her diluted goat's milk/FV combo. Her tummy went back to feeling bloated again she's still only producing four tiny poops. She's lethargic and when I massage her tummy I know it hurts her and I think I can even feel bubbles. I've stopped feeding her formula and gone back to Pedialyte.

Do we have an exact protocol for treatment of this mysterious bloating? Am I administering enough simethicone? How often do I subject her to the warm bathing? Is there anything else I should be doing? I've read quite a bit about this on the board but nothing says "do this, then this, then this, this much, for this long." I'm not panicked and I'm giving her cuddles but I am concerned. I want her to feel better and get back on nutrients again.

:thankyou

[redwuff]

In acupuncture, stagnation is the cause of many ills. Seems the same in squirrel raising. Hugs to you Marian and your little charge.

Trysh

[cuteascnb]

I would feed her less at feedings...I heard some where that when they have bloat...if its serious it can cause their tummys to kinda rupture....I would fill a cup with warm water....put only her bottom half above tummy into the cup or bowl...if the water cools....get more warm water, I would do this for 10 min before/after each feeding depending when it seems worse! I hope she gets to feeling better!

Not positive but what about gripe water???

is she still on a heating pad? If not put her on it....or if she is maybe make it a little warmer (but keep an eye on it) warm=good digestion!

[Rhapsody]

This is the basic protocol I personally follow with bloat.

1. Infant Gas X Drops (1 drop per hr)
2. Warm Water Soak (10 mins) - Rub Tummy & Sides
3. Hold Formula - Push Pedialyte (as long as bloat does not become worse)


.......... Repeat all steps as needed

.......... Some times it is best to hold fluids until bloat is gone.

[cuteascnb]

Completely agree with the above! ^^^^^^


ARE U ADDING ANYTHING TO THE FORMULA? I WAS TOLD BY JACKIE AND MRS. SKUL TO ADD YO BABY YOGURT, AND THE BOYS DID WONDERFUL ON IT, REALLY HELPS WITH DIGESTION!

[stosh2010]

Prayin' for POOPS...lots of them...

[CritterMom]

Miriam, why heavy cream? It was a necessary evil with Esbilac because the fat content wasn't right for squirrels, but I think that a lot of time it is just too rich.

[MiriamS]

Thank you squeeps :wave123

Sounds like I need to administer Gas-X more often. Will do that. :thumbsup

Rhapsody, how often do you recommend the warm baths?

I know that not everyone adds heavy whipping cream to the FV and maybe I will stop now. It's the formula I started out with a few years back and I've never encountered this problem. I think it was to help the babies put weight on?

Now I understand that if you add heavy cream you need to add yogurt to aid in digestion, though the heavy cream seems to adversely affect some baby squirrels more than others. I don't know, I may just go to straight FV once this is all sorted out.

[cuteascnb]

Thank you squeeps :wave123

Sounds like I need to administer Gas-X more often. Will do that. :thumbsup

Rhapsody, how often do you recommend the warm baths?

I know that not everyone adds heavy whipping cream to the FV and maybe I will stop now. It's the formula I started out with a few years back and I've never encountered this problem. I think it was to help the babies put weight on?

Now I understand that if you add heavy cream you need to add yogurt to aid in digestion, though the heavy cream seems to adversely affect some baby squirrels more than others. I don't know, I may just go to straight FV once this is all sorted out.


I dont use the heavy cream just yogurt...I had a bad expieriance with ranger adding the heavy cream....but the yogurt has been great!

[MiriamS]

I dont use the heavy cream just yogurt...I had a bad expieriance with ranger adding the heavy cream....but the yogurt has been great!
This is very interesting. Was Ranger a pinky when you had the bad experience? I'm wondering if there's a correlation between age and intolerance of the heavy cream.

[cuteascnb]

This is very interesting. Was Ranger a pinky when you had the bad experience? I'm wondering if there's a correlation between age and intolerance of the heavy cream.

no he was about 4 weeks old...it was right after the conferance...when he got pnemonia....it was the same day that I started adding heavy cream...he got pnemonia and was bloated just a little...went away on its own...stopped it after one day! but continued with the yogurt...ONLY YO BABY!


however like with the flyers I add heavy cream with yogurt every feeding! they dont mind it!

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

got my girls at 2 1/2 weeks they still now at 7 weeks do better with the yogurt (yobaby apple and sweet potato ) have gone from 32/40 to 20/50 and back to the 32/40 ( I like it better)and they like it better.
Poop is better consistency and easier for then to pass alone, they do suck down the occasional air bubble, it cant be helped I try to get it all out of the syringe but they still can get a bubble , I think the yogurt helps with any stomach issues. No Bloat and they are gulping little piggies:D :D :D :D

[cuteascnb]

got my girls at 2 1/2 weeks they still now at 7 weeks do better with the yogurt (yobaby apple and sweet potato ) have gone from 32/40 to 20/50 and back to the 32/40 ( I like it better)and they like it better.
Poop is better consistency and easier for then to pass alone, they do suck down the occasional air bubble, it cant be helped I try to get it all out of the syringe but they still can get a bubble , I think the yogurt helps with any stomach issues. No Bloat and they are gulping little piggies:D :D :D :D


good point....I never switched them from 32/40! Its better for them I feel! Even now, thats what I add to their yogurt...as well as the flyers! They do love the apple and sweet potato....if you cant find it....banana and vanilla are just as good!

[quagmire]

I read that apple juice acts as a laxative because it is pasturized. I have used it in this manner a few times in the past and it seems to work. Can anyone second or confirm this?

Good Luck.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I have read this I Think in Stosh's Cruiser thread. Apple juice helped make poop.
I also read some where a drop or two of prune juice cant hurt either, havent had the pleasure of trying this except on myself, works great !!

[MiriamS]

no he was about 4 weeks old...it was right after the conferance...when he got pnemonia....it was the same day that I started adding heavy cream...he got pnemonia and was bloated just a little...went away on its own...stopped it after one day! but continued with the yogurt...ONLY YO BABY!


however like with the flyers I add heavy cream with yogurt every feeding! they dont mind it!
Wow, rough day for Ranger :hissyfit

I've heard different things about "only Yo-Baby" and now I'm mixed up. Some have said any full-fat plain yogurt works fine.

Yup, that must be where I started adding the heavy whipping cream, three years ago when I got Cocoa and Chip. It didn't bother the grey squirrel babies Cookie and Fudge but now I wonder about the Irene babies that I lost.

Curious thing....how do I get Truffle moving like Redwuff suggested which i think is a good idea....when the warm bath totally puts Truffle to sleep :thinking


OH SCORE! Neighbor with baby had apple juice. How much? How often?

[island rehabber]

Miriam, sorry I missed your call -- been hovering over my own problem kids tonight and didn't hear the phone :( .
Keep it as simple as possible, is my advice. NO formula or Pedialyte until the bloat subsides. That's Rehab 101 Bloat Rule. You know I use FV straight up, or with Ultra Boost for failure to thrive kids. No dairy add-ons, but that's just me. Gotta tell you -- I have never had a bloated baby squirrel. Right now I have Sneezy, Dopey and Gimpy on my hands but I've never had bloat :D so this straight FV thing may be the right way to go.
Remember when you add cream to 32/40 all you're doing is making 20/50 :poke I don't know how you guys even get your squirrels to take the formula with yogurt; I have yet to have a baby who would touch the stuff :dono I just feel with some babies the cream and maybe even the yogurt could be the problem.

[MiriamS]

You know I use FV straight up, or with Ultra Boost for failure to thrive kids. Remember when you add cream to 32/40 all you're doing is making 20/50 :poke I just feel with some babies the cream and maybe even the yogurt could be the problem.

NP, I know you've had your stuff to deal with. And it was worth the wait because "Sneezy, Dopey and Gimpy" just made me lmao. :rotfl :bowdown

Yes I've been thinking of you and your FV straight-up (shaken not stirred) rule this whole time. It doesn't make any sense that we say don't ever give cow's milk to babies but then we use heavy whipping cream. They're not cows, so no cow milk! Seems so simple. Doesn't make sense if all that gets us is 20/50 duh! There are no cooks in my kitchen and too many in my head. :dono

With Truffle being older, I didn't think it would be a problem but now I'm wondering if that could indeed be the problem. Or if it's something else entirely because the bloat is really not resolving. I'm starting to wonder if I'm imagining it and that she's just fat. :eek: But she really is lethargic and not pooping nearly as much as the pinkies.

I am trying to develop a plan for the rest of the night. This is a challenge given that the cooks in my head are fighting with the mothballs from inconsistent sleep. Oh and maybe the Lunesta I just took (I NEED MY DUH! SMILEY)

Truffles had her regular-bad-scary-never-use-again-formula exactly 24hours ago then I realized something was wrong. She had the new FV/GM formula at 2:30pm when I thought she was on the recovery road enough to get formula in her. Just those two doses of anything nutritional, combined with lots of Pedialyte to keep her hydrated and I gave her 6cc of apple juice about an hour ago. Now I see not do I just sit and wait? Give hourly Gas-X? Water? There probably won't be much poop in her without the formula feedings so should I keep stimulating and listening for little tiny baby farts? (I know, I am serious)

[cuteascnb]

I only add a little yogurt....not much....I think its good to start them on it so as they wean themselves they still like yogurt....the boys go crazy for it....I mix the 32/40 fv with the to baby....they look like kids Im an ice cream shop and its gone in seconds...lol!

To each his own though, I guess u gotta find what works best for you....ranger was under weight...still is much smaller then Shiloh....I truly think he's a dwarf...

Truly any full fat yogurt is fine...yo baby has no added anything....all organic, which means their not getting filled up on things they don't need.

Yogurt is not a necessities for squirrels, since they can not naturally obtain it in the wild....but it does aid in digestion especially for hand raised babies whose diets are usually a little different then wild babies...!

[Fireweed]

How's the little Truffs doing, Miriam? :grouphug

[MiriamS]

How's the little Truffs doing, Miriam? :grouphug
Oh hi there! I meant the other thread but now I see you'd already discovered it. Sleep-deprivation is so much fun. You never know what you're going to get.

Truffle is a little more energetic this morning, waving her crazy long tail around. But still bloated and not pooping. I remain concerned and confused.

[MiriamS]

six tiny poops....it's a start

[island rehabber]

:wahoo:poop:poop:poop:poop:poop:poop:alright.gif

[Jackie in Tampa]

on a serious time frame..
cow's milk is not poison...we say to not use it because there is not enough nutrition in it.
Sqs die if fed only cows milk, they starve to death and major diarrhea til they do.

any yogurt, I have always used Dannon All natural Vanilla..it is not full fat, however it is not lite or no fat, not sugary.
I feel very proud of my sqs physically and mentally,I use both heavy ream and yogurt.
Bloat is human error.
Can be caused by alot of things, re heating formula, sour formula, pushing air, not allowing FV to fully dissolve before feeding may be an issue also.
Cold formula too. Cold baby will not digest properly eithr, I am not suggesting you did any of these..just sharing what I have learned along the way.
I am all for the warm water soak.:thumbsup Rice buddy and kisses.
Canned pumpkin and/or apple juice can be used to tweak digestion issues, better than OTC products imo.:peace

I agree with Isalnd, no food until things are working normal.
and then dilute formula alittle. I would use yogurt, but wait to add the heavy cream for 24 hours..after you are positive no more bloat on the horizon.:thumbsup

poops are good! yeah!!!

[MiriamS]

Thanks Jackie for explaining all of this. I respect the people that swear by the heavy cream and yogurt. You and Mrs. Skul have each saved my squirrels and the formula is doing great for the pinkies I have. They're like, POWER PINKIES! With power poops.

I'm thinking maybe Truffle's bloat was because she wasn't warm enough. She always climbed to avoid the heat, even though it was a delightful "low." Or maybe she just has an intolerance to cow products.

The great news is that after a couple of apple juice feedings, she is fully pooping now. Yippeee :wahoo lots and lots of :poop :poop :poop :poop :poop :poop Gosh I feel like I've been waiting for these poops all my life. She is more active but how can I be sure the gas is gone? Would it all have been expelled in order for her to poop? Should her tummy be totally squishy?

The big question is do I start her on dilute FV or GM formula or a dilute version of the combo formula? Minus the heavy cream.

[jo_schmoe]

Thanks Jackie for explaining all of this. I respect the people that swear by the heavy cream and yogurt. You and Mrs. Skul have each saved my squirrels and the formula is doing great for the pinkies I have. They're like, POWER PINKIES! With power poops.

I'm thinking maybe Truffle's bloat was because she wasn't warm enough. She always climbed to avoid the heat, even though it was a delightful "low." Or maybe she just has an intolerance to cow products.

The great news is that after a couple of apple juice feedings, she is fully pooping now. Yippeee :wahoo lots and lots of :poop :poop :poop :poop :poop :poop Gosh I feel like I've been waiting for these poops all my life. She is more active but how can I be sure the gas is gone? Would it all have been expelled in order for her to poop? Should her tummy be totally squishy?

The big question is do I start her on dilute FV or GM formula or a dilute version of the combo formula? Minus the heavy cream.
GREAT NEWS!!! Poop is GOOD!! :D ( only squirrel peeps truly appreciate the power of the almighty golden nuggets!!)

I had this same problem with the Reds...each and every one of the bloated on full strength FV....a product which I STILL have the upmost faith in. Ive seen with my own eyes the powers of FV....so seeing my guys bloat up was discerning. They were warm...so was the FV....fully dissolved after 12 hrs in fridge...so I know those things were not the problem.
I ended up adding goats milk to the mix...about 1/2 and 1/2 fv to gm for a few days....then up to 3/4 fv and 1/4 gm.
It worked wonderfully for them....great poohs....nice soft bellies....and lots of golden nuggets.

[MiriamS]

I ended up adding goats milk to the mix...about 1/2 and 1/2 fv to gm for a few days....then up to 3/4 fv and 1/4 gm.
Hi Jo! It's reassuring to know that others have encountered this and been surprised. Your mixing the GM is basically UDoWhat's "magic formula" that seems to work especially well with pinkies. I think it's what I'll start using to get Truffle back up to speed. Maybe just diluted GM, then add straight FV one step at a time to make sure each goes smoothly.

[Fireweed]

:poop :poop :poop
Happy dance, happy dance!
:grouphug Truffle :grouphug Miriam :grouphug



Oh hi there! I meant the other thread but now I see you'd already discovered it. Sleep-deprivation is so much fun. You never know what you're going to get.

Sleep-deprivation, fun! :alright.gif Yes, I knew what thread you meant but my connection has been slow and not allowing me to upload pics, so I wait. But not very patiently because I. Want. Photos. Of. Truffs. NOW!! :hyper

[jo_schmoe]

Hi Jo! It's reassuring to know that others have encountered this and been surprised. Your mixing the GM is basically UDoWhat's "magic formula" that seems to work especially well with pinkies. I think it's what I'll start using to get Truffle back up to speed. Maybe just diluted GM, then add straight FV one step at a time to make sure each goes smoothly.
I think that sounds absolutely perfect!!!
Can I be a bother....and ask for a pic of the babes....since my guys are all full grown *beeps* and have no respect for the woman that saved their lives...:thumbsup
I'll even take poop pics....anything at this point....:thankyou

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I'll second that JO:worthless
me myself personally, go with yogurt or goats milk.
Don't like cows milk, they do too much to it, cows are given so many nasty drugs growth hormones and who knows what, they leave goats alone for the most part,( I hope) and there are good cultures in yogurt.
Even though yogurt is from cows milk it is not the same molecular setting. Thus easier to digest.

http://www.stonyfield.com/healthy-people/our-yogurt/what-exactly-yogurt

[MiriamS]

You three crack me up. :Stooges You're like addicts jonesing for baby pics.


Pics of Truffle here:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33380


I'm still posting pics of the Irene babies and Twitch, though obviously they're from a long time ago but if you really need a fix :D

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29992&page=20

[Rhapsody]

Rhapsody, how often do you recommend the warm baths?
Sorry I logged off before you posted again..... I basically soak them in warm water as I see their little belly is beginning to bloat again, or after I give them another dose of their hourly gas x. (so at least 1x an hour during the bloat)

[MiriamS]

First feeding post-bloat was a few hours ago, and Truffle would only take 5cc of goat's milk/yogurt/water formula (3:1:1) (she weighs 150g). She has been pooping in her container but I noticed some of it is yucky mushy. Is this to be expected? Is it because the formula is too diluted? I thought I'd start out really easy. Does she need the FV to provide whatever makes the poop firm?

We're coming up on four hours so I'm thinking about the next feeding and wondering if I should use the same formula only offer less/more often/different ratio, etc.

[jo_schmoe]

First feeding post-bloat was a few hours ago, and Truffle would only take 5cc of goat's milk/yogurt/water formula (3:1:1) (she weighs 150g). She has been pooping in her container but I noticed some of it is yucky mushy. Is this to be expected? Is it because the formula is too diluted? I thought I'd start out really easy. Does she need the FV to provide whatever makes the poop firm?

We're coming up on four hours so I'm thinking about the next feeding and wondering if I should use the same formula only offer less/more often/different ratio, etc.
What it your ratio......FV to GM?

[MiriamS]

What it your ratio......FV to GM?
Two feedings so far of only goat's milk. I wanted to start simple in case I needed to pinpoint one ingredient if Truffle starts to bloat again. I used 3 parts GM, 1 part yogurt and one part water to dilute it, which might have been overkill. 5cc at the first feeding produced bright orange mushy poop but 3cc at the second feeding has produced no messes.

For all I know, this could be the apple juice still at work. What's great is that Truffle has been pooping consistently with stimulation all day and there was just some mess in between that caused me to ask "what now?"

[cuteascnb]

Two feedings so far of only goat's milk. I wanted to start simple in case I needed to pinpoint one ingredient if Truffle starts to bloat again. I used 3 parts GM, 1 part yogurt and one part water to dilute it, which might have been overkill. 5cc at the first feeding produced bright orange mushy poop but 3cc at the second feeding has produced no messes.

For all I know, this could be the apple juice still at work. What's great is that Truffle has been pooping consistently with stimulation all day and there was just some mess in between that caused me to ask "what now?"



thats great news miriam!!!

[MiriamS]

I just don't understand this. After a few really basic, diluted GM feedings, Truffle's poop became mushy and bright orange, like candied yam. It's been really slow and I'm so puzzled as to why her system isn't working the way it should. She seems bloated again so I put her back on the Gas-X and apple juice. Poor girl is HUNGRY. Any advice would be welcome.

Would smaller feedings more often kick her GI tract into gear? Would the FV help regulate at this point? Should I abandon the basic GM formula?

:thinking :help

[Fireweed]

*BUMP*

Did you get some help yet, Miriam? :dono

Hope Truffle is doing better... :grouphug

[cuteascnb]

I just don't understand this. After a few really basic, diluted GM feedings, Truffle's poop became mushy and bright orange, like candied yam. It's been really slow and I'm so puzzled as to why her system isn't working the way it should. She seems bloated again so I put her back on the Gas-X and apple juice. Poor girl is HUNGRY. Any advice would be welcome.

Would smaller feedings more often kick her GI tract into gear? Would the FV help regulate at this point? Should I abandon the basic GM formula?

:thinking :help



aww...miriam I know your busting your butt with this one! I don't know what to tell you honestly. If it were me I would probably give her just FV...maybe try making it a little warmer? I would do less formula at feedings...maybe 2 CC's every 3 hours...and see how that works...its better for her to be a little hungry then really bloated.

Im no expert, I just dont know what else to tell ya to do...I think that an over kill of diff things(gasx, apple juice....) may be harming more then helping right now. another thing you could do is feed her really slow...maybe shes eating to fast and sucking in extra air...

PLEASE UPDATE US!

[island rehabber]

:goodpost

Miriam I think the diluting of whatever formula she's been getting is what makes her poop mushy. Now that you've given her GM I wouldn't switch back to FV immediately, but if she were mine I would gradually change her over to straight FV. JMO. We started with constipation, which you described as bloat but she WAS going a little bit so technically it was not life-threatening. What you wanted to do was loosen up her poops, which you succeeded in doing. The diluting may be the problem. Also, and I will divert from cuteascnb's post above (:peace) , I would space out her feedings more. You are going every 4 hrs -- at her age I would be at every 6 at the most. :grouphug

[cuteascnb]

:goodpost

Miriam I think the diluting of whatever formula she's been getting is what makes her poop mushy. Now that you've given her GM I wouldn't switch back to FV immediately, but if she were mine I would gradually change her over to straight FV. JMO. We started with constipation, which you described as bloat but she WAS going a little bit so technically it was not life-threatening. What you wanted to do was loosen up her poops, which you succeeded in doing. The diluting may be the problem. Also, and I will divert from cuteascnb's post above (:peace) , I would space out her feedings more. You are going every 4 hrs -- at her age I would be at every 6 at the most. :grouphug



like i said im no expert....LOL! Miriam said she was so hungry...even with, I believe she said 5cc's every 4 hours....so thats why i made the suggestion of the smaller amount of formula every few hours....Most of you have had WAY MORE expieriance then me with babies....I just hope everything is good with little truffles....


Miriam HOW IS SHE DOING?

[MiriamS]

You are going every 4 hrs -- at her age I would be at every 6 at the most.

Thanks for checking in IR. I feel like nothing's working and poor Truffle is hungry and losing weight. Luckily she was a chunkster to begin with. She's been on apple juice for most of the day so I think I will start moving her towards FV now. Ug, with nothing added!

Can you please clarify whether you think every 4, 5 or 6 hours between feedings is best? She's five weeks and 150g.

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. You can move us to NLT. Truffle was super bloated and I wasn't sure how threatening that was. I got these pinkies who were pooping four times what Truffle was producing and they were 1/3 her size. (I was also very tired)

[island rehabber]

Thanks for checking in IR. I feel like nothing's working and poor Truffle is hungry and losing weight. Luckily she was a chunkster to begin with. She's been on apple juice for most of the day so I think I will start moving her towards FV now. Ug, with nothing added!

Can you please clarify whether you think every 4, 5 or 6 hours between feedings is best? She's five weeks and 150g.

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. You can move us to NLT. Truffle was super bloated and I wasn't sure how threatening that was. I got these pinkies who were pooping four times what Truffle was producing and they were 1/3 her size. (I was also very tired)

no problem Miriam, let's leave her in LT for the night just so you can get quick answers if you need them. At 5 wks I would start every 5 hrs and work up to 6, or 4 feedings per day. That's pretty much where I am with babies that age. FV can sometimes have a slightly constipating effect on some babies, so right now that would be a good thing since she's mushy. Keep it simple, and we're all here with ya :grouphug

[MiriamS]

Miriam HOW IS SHE DOING?
:thankyou for staying with me Cute. I've been juggling feedings and work and sleep but I really appreciate the constant support. I'm happy to report that Truffle just gave me four nice little poops. Sweet-potato-colored but well formed. The last time she had any formula was midnight and since she bloated again, it's been apple juice and gas-x all day. I'm really crossing my fingers that when I feed her diluted FV formula, it goes okay.

[cuteascnb]

:thankyou for staying with me Cute. I've been juggling feedings and work and sleep but I really appreciate the constant support. I'm happy to report that Truffle just gave me four nice little poops. Sweet-potato-colored but well formed. The last time she had any formula was midnight and since she bloated again, it's been apple juice and gas-x all day. I'm really crossing my fingers that when I feed her diluted FV formula, it goes okay.

:thumbsup:thumbsup :thumbsup

thats great news...feed her slowly and watch her belly!!! Hope all goes well, will check back in later!

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

what is the possibility that FV just isn't for her?
Certain formulas aren't for all babies, we need to keep trying until we find the one that fits.
I know this is going against the grain ,but we weren't all weened on the same formula, why would we think squirrels can be??
Have you tried the goats milk formula??
Goats milk has been a universal formula for any and every type of baby before all these fancy formulas were even invented.
Sorry, just trying to help, if one thing keeps failing maybe its time to try something else, that's all.
One of my children had a terrible start in life because i was told to give this formula and that formula I couldn't nurse enough and the baby needed more,
after many failed attempts I gave goats milk, worked like a charm. you never know.
One of my baby girls has a problem eating, so i go real slow and make sure there are NO air bubbles in the syringe, which is no easy task, I have to keep taking it away and checking it which she doesn't like , she gags, and chocks and it comes out of her nose often, may have a cleft plait, not sure, have also seen blood on the nipple 4 times, I thought it was teething the first time, now i am not sure . They can really scare you.

[MiriamS]

SSM, if your baby is an enthusiastic eater or frustrated because you're taking the syringe away and then giving it back, she is probably biting her cheek or tongue while nursing. One of my first squirrel babies, Fudge, was such a voracious eater that he left blood on the nipple a couple of times. It does scare the dickens out of you.

And yes, I'm totally wondering if it's some sort of allergy and maybe it would be better to go to solids sooner rather than later.

[MiriamS]

Survey says.....Fox Valley makes Truffle bloat. Unequivocally.

Next stop, goat's milk.

[island rehabber]

Then you've got the proof. Maybe a combo of GM and MultiMilk.....or (gasp!) GM and Esbilac? I know a couple of rehabbers who are doing such combinations and could ask them for you...poor Truffle!

[Nancy in New York]

I agree, you need to start trying something else. I believe last year some members started having a problem with their little ones bloating on FV. I didn't have any of the tiny ones last year, so I never saw it myself....but....you should never stick with something that is just isn't working. If you're doing everything right, and they bloat....CHANGE.:D

BUT, not sure I would go with the MultiMilk:nono ....I sent this to SR&BT a couple of months ago, I knew she used it in the past, and just wanted to keep her up to date:
http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Replacers/MultiMilk%20Lot%20H1730U.htm

:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[MiriamS]

From what I understand, everyone started having problems with FV last year and though it hasn't been confirmed by me, there might have been a change to the formula that would explain it. Has anyone tried Zoologic 33/40?

[jo_schmoe]

Maybe we should talk to Nick....
From my dealings with him....he is honest and hard working and has no problem answering any questions....

For what its worth....I found that a combo of FV and GM was next to perfect...and this was last year.

[Nancy in New York]

From what I understand, everyone started having problems with FV last year and though it hasn't been confirmed by me, there might have been a change to the formula that would explain it. Has anyone tried Zoologic 33/40?
Not sure about this, but contact SR&BT I know that she has in the past....:)

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

SSM, if your baby is an enthusiastic eater or frustrated because you're taking the syringe away and then giving it back, she is probably biting her cheek or tongue while nursing. One of my first squirrel babies, Fudge, was such a voracious eater that he left blood on the nipple a couple of times. It does scare the dickens out of you.

And yes, I'm totally wondering if it's some sort of allergy and maybe it would be better to go to solids sooner rather than later.

Actually she is my calm quiet one, the panic eater never bled:dono
How are you guys doing to day?

[Nancy in New York]

MiriamS....I have had blood on the nipple sometimes, but it's from their teeth (teething), scares the heck out of you the first time you see it....:shakehead Wonder if yours could be from the teeth also?

[Jackie in Tampa]

I love GM

[MiriamS]

I love GM
We know Jackie. I think you need to tattoo it on your forehead! :D That's what I'm feeding Truffle right now.



MiriamS....I have had blood on the nipple sometimes, but it's from their teeth (teething), Wonder if yours could be from the teeth also?
None of my squirrels are doing that now. I was just responding to Sweet Simon's Mommy.

[Nancy in New York]

None of my squirrels are doing that now. I was just responding to Sweet Simon's Mommy.

Do you think it would help if I read what you wrote first, before responding....:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :dono :poke

[patjones]

I will be watching to see how it goes with the GM hope that does the trick.

[MiriamS]

Do you think it would help if I read what you wrote first, before responding....:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :dono :poke
eh, that would be so much work:dono

[Nancy in New York]

eh, that would be so much work:dono

You're right.....I'll just keep throwing out comments and hope that one sticks.....:rotfl :rotfl :poke
:Love_Icon

[stosh2010]

Team Costa Rica is PRAYING for a flat, squishy belly---soon.

[stosh2010]

You three crack me up. :Stooges You're like addicts jonesing for baby pics.


Pics of Truffle here:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33380



For those who can't wait....Here's a collage.....

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I love it when Stosh does that!!!

You see the difference in her face, lot calmer now M, that's a good thing.

[MiriamS]

You see the difference in her face, lot calmer now M, that's a good thing.
:rotfl not exactly SSM. Those photos were all from before she got bloated and before she opened her eyes. That's why she looks so calm. I still feel like I can see discomfort on her face....and I hate it.

[Nancy in New York]

:rotfl not exactly SSM. Those photos were all from before she got bloated and before she opened her eyes. That's why she looks so calm. I still feel like I can see discomfort on her face....and I hate it.

Miriam, sometimes what I do, if you have the time..... Sit with her and pat her back like you would a baby. Try kneading her tummy too, lightly, then pat her back. I usually do this for about 20-30 minutes to try to alleviate the gas. When I have babies that see uncomfortable, that really seems to help.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

:thinking oops

[MiriamS]

:wahoo SOFT TUMMY SOFT TUMMY ALERT :wahoo :alright.gif


:jump :jump :jump
A day of goat's milk formula with only yogurt added and Truffle is so much better. She's SO SUPER excited to get to drink formula again that you'd think she was a crack addict. Her little arms shake when the syringe empties. She has energy and is acting more like a squirrel her age should be acting. :alright.gif Climbing up my lap right now and she spent a while napping around my neck. I was cleaning off her chin and she wiggled until I was giving her underarm scritches. I've never had a squirrel request arm scritches! I'm in WUV. :love

Ironically, we're almost back to square one with the poop. She started out doing perfect little yellow poops but only four at a time. Then it was no poops then mushy bright red stuff. I've been giving her infant Imodium and today she graduated to four red poops at a time of decent formation. Hopefully that keeps improving but as long as she keeps eating and growing, we're on the right track. She has a little sneeze that I'm watching but I'm excited to abandon this thread.

[Nancy in New York]

:wahoo SOFT TUMMY SOFT TUMMY ALERT :wahoo :alright.gif


:jump :jump :jump
A day of goat's milk formula with only yogurt added and Truffle is so much better. She's SO SUPER excited to get to drink formula again that you'd think she was a crack addict. Her little arms shake when the syringe empties. She has energy and is acting more like a squirrel her age should be acting. :alright.gif Climbing up my lap right now and she spent a while napping around my neck. I was cleaning off her chin and she wiggled until I was giving her underarm scritches. I've never had a squirrel request arm scritches! I'm in WUV. :love

Ironically, we're almost back to square one with the poop. She started out doing perfect little yellow poops but only four at a time. Then it was no poops then mushy bright red stuff. I've been giving her infant Imodium and today she graduated to four red poops at a time of decent formation. Hopefully that keeps improving but as long as she keeps eating and growing, we're on the right track. She has a little sneeze that I'm watching but I'm excited to abandon this thread.

Miriam this is wonderful news. Can you share what formulation you are using now? Are you adding GM and FV or just GM?
Glad things are back on track.....now you can breathe a little easier....:grouphug
edit: OK I just read the answer to my question in your other thread....GM and yogurt, right? What kind of GM, is it the powdered?

[MiriamS]

I'm using canned Meyenberg evaporated GM, which isn't actually powder but you need to add water in a 1:1 ratio. Then I'm using 3 parts GM with 1 part yogurt. Keeping it super basic right now until Truffle is really thriving. Her poops are better but still not as prolific as I think they should be. And bright red! Is that ever normal?

[island rehabber]

Absolutely normal. One of my kids' poops are a lovely brick red right now....and he's on straight FV. The only colors you need to worry about are white (overfeeding) and grey/green slimey (coccidia).

[MiriamS]

Well, it seems I just can't win. Truffle went from pooping moderately formed red poops to liquidy yellow-green. I thought of what IR said about coccidia but it would have shown up before now right? I mean, her first poops before THE BLOAT were perfect and yellow. I'm giving her infant Imodium, which is what is causing the green I'm sure but is borderline diarrhea to be expected on a straight GM diet? Should I try the FV again? I feel so badly for her. Though she's acting totally normal for her age and is bright eyed and alert. I think kind of wondering why the squirmy peachies won't play with her.

[astra]

Well, it seems I just can't win. Truffle went from pooping moderately formed red poops to liquidy yellow-green. I thought of what IR said about coccidia but it would have shown up before now right? I mean, her first poops before THE BLOAT were perfect and yellow. I'm giving her infant Imodium, which is what is causing the green I'm sure but is borderline diarrhea to be expected on a straight GM diet? Should I try the FV again? I feel so badly for her. Though she's acting totally normal for her age and is bright eyed and alert. I think kind of wondering why the squirmy peachies won't play with her.
is it possible to check her for parasites?...

as far as I remember (and correct me if I am wrong), a certain number of parasites can peacefully live inside without causing any problems until the squirrel becomes compromised in some way, its immune system weakens and that's when parasites flare up, sort of like mange.

So, I think it is possible that she had some and they only started showing themselves now after her GI problems...:thinking

[MiriamS]

Thanks Astra. Just what I wanted to hear. :hissyfit

I think you are correct about parasites being able to lie dormant. But I also just remember that I treated her with Capstar when she came in so that might have taken care of certain nasties, but not others. :thinking

[astra]

Thanks Astra. Just what I wanted to hear. :hissyfit

I think you are correct about parasites being able to lie dormant. But I also just remember that I treated her with Capstar when she came in so that might have taken care of certain nasties, but not others. :thinking
sorry, just trying to think here...
i don't think capstar takes care of cocchidia if that's what it is:thinking :dono

[MiriamS]

Yeah, you need AB for coccidia, though I'm still hoping it isn't that. How do I tell the difference between irritable bowel and coccidia? It's not especially gross or smelly. Just went from decently formed red to decently formed yellow to runny yellow to runny grey/green but the last color change could be the Imodium. Where's Jackie? She's the :poop expert.

[skippy]

Yeah, you need AB for coccidia, though I'm still hoping it isn't that. How do I tell the difference between irritable bowel and coccidia? It's not especially gross or smelly. Just went from decently formed red to decently formed yellow to runny yellow to runny grey/green but the last color change could be the Imodium. Where's Jackie? She's the :poop expert.

Just treated my 3 new intakes with Baycox for coccidia. Very pungent smelly pudding consistancy poop. Its 3-5 days of treatment. Alot shorter than Albon. Lots of laundry and baths to keep them kissable. :)

[skippy]

I'll second that JO:worthless
me myself personally, go with yogurt or goats milk.
Don't like cows milk, they do too much to it, cows are given so many nasty drugs growth hormones and who knows what, they leave goats alone for the most part,( I hope) and there are good cultures in yogurt.
Even though yogurt is from cows milk it is not the same molecular setting. Thus easier to digest.

http://www.stonyfield.com/healthy-people/our-yogurt/what-exactly-yogurt

Just reading about the yogurt many seem to like to feed with their FV. Just a thought to share:
To get the pro-biotics without the dairy, I use LA200 in my formula mixture. 1/16t to 2:1 FV. It's Lactobacillus Acidophilus in a powder which is what you find in the yogurt and it's kept refrigerated as they are live bacteria. Friends use if for their bunnies too. I also use benebac if I have to administer AB's as they kill off all the good intestinal flora. I take the capsules nightly myself. (Lactose Intolerant).
Just a thought in case you may want an option to cow's milk products.
:)

[skippy]

Fox Valley carries the LA200.
Plenty to share with friends.

[island rehabber]

:goodpost good reminder of a great product! I took it myself for 3 weeks when on a huge dose of doxycycline for Lyme disease -- worked perfectly. :thumbsup

[CritterMom]

Speak to your pharmacist. I can purchase foil pacs of refrigerated LA at my CVS pharmacy. It is NOT on the floor - you have to ask for it.

[island rehabber]

Miriam I am pretty sure the off-color is from the immodium. I use Kaopectate and it makes for some bizarre colored poop as well. Ask JIT about GM side effects; she's used it for prolonged periods of time and would know.

[jo_schmoe]

Mir....I would look into coccidia....but also giardia.
Coccidia is most commonly passed from the mother to the baby....while giardia is a bit easier to get.
Both can lay "dormant" in the system. Its not really dormant...just being fought off by a healthy immune system. When you see a flare up...its usually a sign that the immune system is lowered...and the parasite is "out of control" so to speak.
Maybe try a good immune booster...:peace along with a good AB.

Have you tried a ratio of FV to GM???

[MiriamS]

(PMd to Jackie)

After Truffle had her big bloat, I put her on a simple diet of 3 parts GM and 1 part yogurt. After the bloat cleared, her poop was quite normal looking but then it got mushy red. Then it started to take on a decent consistency, still red. Then it started to turn a nicely formed yellow color but suddenly went to runny yellow to runny grey/green. After a few episodes of runny yellow, I started Imodium, which is likely the cause of the green color.

However, I'm wondering if:
a) extended feeding of GM causes the runs
b) if I should start her on AB for coccidia or giardia
c) try adding FV slowly to see if it balances out the poop consistency

Truffle is alert, happy and healthy otherwise. I'm the tired lethargic confused one.

[MiriamS]

Skippy and Crittermom, I'll totally go out and get some Lactobacillus Acidophilus! I'm curious to see what it might do for my own stomach, which is fickle. I'll see what I find at the pharmacy or Whole Foods and get back to you for the dosing.

Truffle was a plump older healthy baby when she came in. What happened? :dono :hissyfit Do the older babies have a harder time with formula because they've been drinking their mother's milk for so long?

[Nancy in New York]

To MiriamS:
Your mailbox is full....167226

[MiriamS]

Just cleared it.

[Nancy in New York]

Just cleared it.
Just sent it....:thumbsup

[skippy]

Skippy and Crittermom, I'll totally go out and get some Lactobacillus Acidophilus! I'm curious to see what it might do for my own stomach, which is fickle. I'll see what I find at the pharmacy or Whole Foods and get back to you for the dosing.

Truffle was a plump older healthy baby when she came in. What happened? :dono :hissyfit Do the older babies have a harder time with formula because they've been drinking their mother's milk for so long?

Good Morning MS: Make sure it's refrigerated. The stuff they sell on the shelves is no good as these are living bacteria that need to be kept cold. I'm sure you'll find relief for yourself as well. :)
We get ours in a bag from FV and share it with a group. I'd have to look at the data on their website for that product and compare the parts per million to what you end up finding locally. Love whole foods.
Good Luck, will check back later.

[skippy]

:goodpost good reminder of a great product! I took it myself for 3 weeks when on a huge dose of doxycycline for Lyme disease -- worked perfectly. :thumbsup

Ugh! Yes, those heavy doses of ABs kill off all bacteria, even the good ones!
Simple solution to build them back up and get rid of all the gastrointestinal side effects.

[Jackie in Tampa]

if it were giardia...your house would smell like a morgue.
nasty..giardia is more mucusy also...
giardia requires metronidazole/flagyl..not sulfa base ABs.
Use the SMZ-TMP and we'll see what happens..

[MiriamS]

SMZ-TMP is not a dyslexia friendly medication. In writing I keep mixing it up and pretty sure TMZ is going to show up at my door with cameras expecting to see some famous wrapper or porn star named Truffles.

[Jackie in Tampa]

SMZ-TMP is not a dyslexia friendly medication. In writing I keep mixing it up and pretty sure TMZ is going to show up at my door with cameras expecting to see some famous wrapper or porn star named Truffles.:rotfl :osnap
the poopa raazzi!

[island rehabber]

:jump:jump:alright.gif:jump:jump

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

:rotfl :flash
:rotfl :osnap
the poopa raazzi!

[MiriamS]

:rotfl :osnap
the poopa raazzi!
ROFLMAO :rofl4 :rofl4 :rofl4 :rofl4

[MiriamS]

Okay, I need a reality check. Is all of this talk of coccidia for nothing and I'm overfeeding Truffle?

She weighs 160g and gets 9cc formula every five hours.

I'll feel so dumb if that's the problem.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

how old is she??
Mine are now 8 weeks I feed formula between 7-8
veggies at 12-1 formula with baby fruit and yogurt 7-8

[MiriamS]

SSM- 7-8 AM/PM or times a day?

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

7-8 am formula
12-1 veggies, salad block and apple
7-8 pm formula
I gave them 7grain wheat bread soaked in formula this afternoon, Peaches just tries to suck it, Zuzu loved it
that will be dinner tonight.
Keep Maurzi block in the cage at all times for them to chew on and HHB they just knd of break it up into sawdust
Peaches doesnt eat anything, just her formula:dono

[island rehabber]

Okay, I need a reality check. Is all of this talk of coccidia for nothing and I'm overfeeding Truffle?

She weighs 160g and gets 9cc formula every five hours.

I'll feel so dumb if that's the problem.

9cc is just right for her weight. Every 5 hrs might be too often, though. My boyz are barely 4 weeks old and go 5 - 5.5 hrs between feedings...if I try sooner they are not hungry and sleep right thru it :D,

[MiriamS]

9cc is just right for her weight. Every 5 hrs might be too often, though. My boyz are barely 4 weeks old and go 5 - 5.5 hrs between feedings...if I try sooner they are not hungry and sleep right thru it :D,
This is the confusing thing. Truffles is ravenous. Always. Maybe PTSD from her day of Pedialyte and no formula?

IR, I am pretty sure you jinxed us with the mention of green slime :yuck. Truffle has been pooping and leaking it for maybe two days now. I feel awful for her. First the baths for her bloating. Now baths to clean her off. Her tushy is swollen and sore so she keeps rubbing it against the fleece which only makes it worse. And well, it's just all around gross.

It must be coccidia, and I started her on SMZ but then a local rehabber gave me Baycox, which is supposed to work more quickly. The slime has turned from green to yellow which I suppose is a step in the right direction. Otherwise she's alert and growly when I bathe her but cuddly the rest of the time.

She's still on formula, though I've been introducing her to block food, thinking the substance of it might help firm up her poo. Any other advice is welcome. Do I give her Imodium? Baby banana food? I want to a) make her feel better and b) stop the grossness

:help

[jo_schmoe]

This is the confusing thing. Truffles is ravenous. Always. Maybe PTSD from her day of Pedialyte and no formula?

IR, I am pretty sure you jinxed us with the mention of green slime :yuck. Truffle has been pooping and leaking it for maybe two days now. I feel awful for her. First the baths for her bloating. Now baths to clean her off. Her tushy is swollen and sore so she keeps rubbing it against the fleece which only makes it worse. And well, it's just all around gross.

It must be coccidia, and I started her on SMZ but then a local rehabber gave me Baycox, which is supposed to work more quickly. The slime has turned from green to yellow which I suppose is a step in the right direction. Otherwise she's alert and growly when I bathe her but cuddly the rest of the time.

She's still on formula, though I've been introducing her to block food, thinking the substance of it might help firm up her poo. Any other advice is welcome. Do I give her Imodium? Baby banana food? I want to a) make her feel better and b) stop the grossness

:help
If its coccidia....thats a tough one. It takes time. Just keep up with the Abs...finish them all....and give her some yogurt or benebac. Oh...and lots of love and kisses....:Love_Icon
Keep her very clean....and maybe keep a barrier between her fur/skin and the pooh....I used silvadine on Flash...and bathed him regularly.

[island rehabber]

If it's cox, NOTHING is gonna firm up her poops until it's gone. As jo schmoe said, keep up the AB's and keep her clean -- and Silvadene is a miracle cream for everything what ails your skin. :thumbsup Pooooor Truff!

[MiriamS]

So the Baycox worked wonders and after the two doses, Truffle's green slime started to turn to a nicer "yellow paste" and improved from there. The interesting thing about Baycox is that you're supposed to give one dose per day for two days and then five days later another dose once a day for either one or two days. The rehabber that gave it to me said different people had different feelings about the second round and whether it should be just one dose five days later or the same two dose/two day thing.

I'm thinking maybe it should be one day. Cutest sound I had never heard before and then felt horrible once I realized what it was....Truffle throwing up. Smells like sour formula, just like when human babies throw up. :yuck I'm assuming it's from the antibiotics but I'd given her some new veggies which I immediately took away just in case. She's acting completely normal otherwise, climbing the walls and nibbling her food. I was actually going to send her to live with someone else who has other squirrels her age so she can have space and playmates.

The only noticeable difference is that she doesn't have much of an appetite for formula and it would be awfully soon for her to wean off it. I'm guessing she knows it won't sit well but she likes to nibble apple after puking. I assume it helps the taste in her mouth. Right now she's snoozing in a fleece burrito on my belly. My poor Truffies!

Does anyone else ever feel like they're doing everything they can to make it worse? :thinking :hissyfit

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

So the Baycox worked wonders and after the two doses, Truffle's green slime started to turn to a nicer "yellow paste" and improved from there. The interesting thing about Baycox is that you're supposed to give one dose per day for two days and then five days later another dose once a day for either one or two days. The rehabber that gave it to me said different people had different feelings about the second round and whether it should be just one dose five days later or the same two dose/two day thing.

I'm thinking maybe it should be one day. Cutest sound I had never heard before and then felt horrible once I realized what it was....Truffle throwing up. Smells like sour formula, just like when human babies throw up. :yuck I'm assuming it's from the antibiotics but I'd given her some new veggies which I immediately took away just in case. She's acting completely normal otherwise, climbing the walls and nibbling her food. I was actually going to send her to live with someone else who has other squirrels her age so she can have space and playmates.

The only noticeable difference is that she doesn't have much of an appetite for formula and it would be awfully soon for her to wean off it. I'm guessing she knows it won't sit well but she likes to nibble apple after puking. I assume it helps the taste in her mouth. Right now she's snoozing in a fleece burrito on my belly. My poor Truffies!

Does anyone else ever feel like they're doing everything they can to make it worse? :thinking :hissyfit
Oh yes I know that feeling with Simon, you are not alone, sometimes I think we over think and try too hard .:poke

[skippy]

I'm glad you were able to get a hold of some baycox. If it's coccidia it does clear it up quickly. So nice when the odor leaves and the gold stool appears again. We give it for 3 day-5days, 1x per day. If after 3 days it's cleared up then we stop. It does taste terrible so I always try to give it part way through a feeding and "chase" it down with some more formula.

I understand about the trying so hard and getting nowhere feeling.

I have 2 voles right now that just keep losing weight even though they are being fed every 2 hours 8x a day. Failing to thrive. Having to resort to sub q
LRS on a 4 gram rodent feels like doing micro surgery. But, if it wasn't for us who care enough to rescue and help, these little babies wouldn't have made it this far. We just have to do the best we can and be grateful for the turn arounds when they appear and the opportunity to help when it was needed.:Love_Icon

[MiriamS]

But, if it wasn't for us who care enough to rescue and help, these little babies wouldn't have made it this far. We just have to do the best we can and be grateful for the turn arounds when they appear and the opportunity to help when it was needed.:Love_Icon
:bowdown

[MiriamS]

Update: Truffle had small bouts of vomiting for about two days. I'm 99% sure it was from the Baycox but I had also introduced some veggies so I immediately took all of that away. I thought her stomach had calmed last night but found a little white mess this morning. Not cottage cheese but still concerning. 12 hours of hourly Pedialyte to rehydrate, then switched to water before switching to goat's milk diluted 50% with water.

FINALLY she is keeping everything down and seems to be feeling better. She's been nibbling block food the whole time and I figured it would be the equivalent of toast for a nauseous human. At this point I think I'm just going to work back up to regular goat's milk. I'm really thinking this baby might have an allergy. As with human toddlers not feeling well, it's made her especially cuddly. That part I like.