Pigeon/bird injured

[astra]

I found an injured pigeon or some other bird.
I will post pics later.
But it looks like it's whole right side is damaged.
I know nothing about birds.
What are a bird's chances of a nr-kind of potential recovery?
I think a parked car went over him or squished it while backing up or something.

What are its chances? What would be humane?
I will post pics in a couple of hours

[astra]

here are photos.

[astra]

sorry, the last four pics turned sideways, but they are supposed to be horizontal as if you rotated them right.

Can someone tell me whether there is anything I could do, or if i should bring him somewhere to be put down?

I do not want to prolong his suffering if that's what I am doing.

He is terrified and shocked.

[CritterMom]

I his foot twisted upside down?

Do you have any rescue remedy? If you do, hose his feet down. It helps with shock...and if he is going to pass it makes for a calmer passing...

[astra]

I his foot twisted upside down?

Do you have any rescue remedy? If you do, hose his feet down. It helps with shick...and if he is going to pass it makes for a calmer passing...
yes, his foot is twisted.

I don't have the remedy right now - I am in school, I found him on the way to school. I will have to stay on campus for another couple of hours.

Right now he is in a cardboard box, wrapped in my jacket, dark and quiet in our office.
He does not look like he is ready to pass. He seems to be rather alert otherwise.
When I saw him in the street, he was fluttering trying to get up/fly (i assume).
So, that makes me hope that it is just the wing and the leg that are injured and not his back?...:thinking

[CritterMom]

It is possible. God, I wonder how. Dark and quiet is good. I guess just watch and wait. You can decide before you leave whether you think he is suffering, and if so, stop at a vet's office and see if they will put him down. Poor thing.

[astra]

It is possible. God, I wonder how. Dark and quiet is good. I guess just watch and wait. You can decide before you leave whether you think he is suffering, and if so, stop at a vet's office and see if they will put him down. Poor thing.
that's what I am thinking...
I sent a couple of PMs to bird people here, too...

Looking up vets here right now...

[pappy1264]

Astra, calling Jodi right now, just got in. Keep him quiet, if you have any parakeet seed you can put some in or even some bread to pick at and water. I will see if I can reach Jodi to help you. Can you feel any breaks in the wings, do they extend normally? Can you feel his keel bone (in his chest) easily (does he seem really thin or does he have good muscle there?) I will get Jodi on. Hang tight.

[astra]

Astra, calling Jodi right now, just got in. Keep him quiet, if you have any parakeet seed you can put some in or even some bread to pick at and water. I will see if I can reach Jodi to help you. Can you feel any breaks in the wings, do they extend normally? Can you feel his keel bone (in his chest) easily (does he seem really thin or does he have good muscle there?) I will get Jodi on. Hang tight.
thanks, pappy!
I don't know - I have not touched him, because he is so terrified - you can see it in his eyes, and I was afraid to shock him even more since I don't know what I am doing or what to look for.

I have no seed right now, I put a lid filled with water and even tried to dip his beak in it, but I think he is too afraid and shocked to respond to any of that.

His left wing seems to be fine - "folded" (or however you call it when bird is sitting and not flying), but his right wing spreads out like a fan and looks like he cannot or has a hard time "folding" it.

I have not touched his leg...
I will try, just don't want to do more damage...

I have to go to class in a bit, but I will be checking here.
I might not be able to post/reply, but I will be able to read the posts.
So, please post :)

THANK YOU!!!!:grouphug

[psychobird]

hi astra, it's hard to tell exaclty what is going on from the pix
thing that is nice about piji's is you can keep them as pets so if you wanted to take him to the vet, you can and they will give them back to you
what is his other leg doing? if the other leg seems normal i wouldn't think it points to spinal trauma the road rash (if that's what it is) on his back is pretty typical in birds getting hit by a car
let him rest and compose himself for a little while, then you need to get a look at that leg
wrap him in a towel so he can't see you
he will stress out, there is no way of getting around that, just keep his face covered but take a peek here and there and if he starts open mouth breathing put him back and try again later
if you find his leg is broken, get pics so i know where the break is
check him over head to toe, lifting feathers, feeling bones in the wing, open and close them, compare to the otherside if you feel anything unusual
look in his mouth, is it pink and clear, is there any cheesy looking stuff in there? take a whiff, does his breath smell foul?
he will put his wings out to support himself

[psychobird]

check those 2 toes too, they look dark, may just be dirt though

[astra]

Thanks so much!
I am in class right now, but should be out in about two hours.
I will do as you said.

Will keep you posted later.

If you think of anything else - please post.

Thank you !!!!!!'

[psychobird]

what state r u in astra?

[astra]

I am in Montreal, Quebec Canada

[Nancy in New York]

astra you are in excellent hands...:Love_Icon
I resized your pictures a little.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo-6.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo-5.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo-4.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo-1.jpg

[astra]

astra you are in excellent hands...:Love_Icon
I resized your pictures hotos/photo-4.jpg[/IMG]
httcom/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/photo-1.jpg
Thank you, Nancy! I know, I just hope I can follow psychobird's great instructions

[psychobird]

you should also post on pigeon talk, lots of people from up your way on there
help may be closer than you think
see if i can get you a link

[psychobird]

you may need to register, try this first
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/index.php

[astra]

you may need to register, try this first
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/index.php
thanks!

I tried them and just cannot get registered - it just does not let me.
I sent a message to the administrators or whatever that link was.

I just got back.

While i was in class, s/he drank from that lid that I filled with water for him/her.

I called a few vet clinics - no one will take a wild pigeon due to viruses.

Now, all people on the phone kept scaring me with viruses that wild pigeons carry. What do I need to know about those viruses?... I remember reading that some viruses zoonotic and some aren't.
So, I will appreciate all info regarding those viruses and what i need to do not to catch them (aside from washing hands).

So, now I will muster up my courage and try to look at his leg and wing.
Please pray because I am scared: never handled a bird and don't know what I am looking at in terms of injuries.

Will report back once done.

Thank you again for all your help!!!!

[Nancy in New York]

astra when you grab him do so with your hand around/over his wings, just like you were picking up anything one handed. If you want, I can do a video....and then you carefully turn him over once he is secure in your hand. Then start to inspect him. Do one wing at a time, by gently pulling it out, looking for blood or anything unusual, then put the wing back into your grasp and check the other wing. If someone is there with you, have them cover his eyes.

[Fireweed]

:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug
Astra, you can do this. It's scary as heck the first time you handle a bird (or any animal you haven't handled before). But you are extremely sensitive and you will handle him naturally the first time better than most. :Love_Icon

Hoping his injuries aren't too bad. :grouphug

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

Thanks for rescuing Astra! Invasive viruses are a concern in Pigeons but not common for human contamination. Vets usually want NO wildlife as many viruses are contagious to domestics such as Chickens. Like the biggest carrier of avian pox is sweet little finches that can destroy Chickenfarms. So I wouldn't worry. Vets just have to be super careful. (in fact my vet is the only one in 100 miles that will take in any wildlife - she loves all creatures)
Be brave. I take in many many homing pigeons during race season and get them healthy and set them toward their homes - I love pigeons!!!

[Baxied]

:grouphug Astra, I am praying for you and your rescue.:grouphug

[psychobird]

oh that's crazy what the vets said, pigeons are no more prone to anything than any other wild bird and your much less able to catch anything they have because your a MAMMAL!
birds have a much higher temp than most mammals, the reason birds don't get rabies!
just don't put poop in your mouth! which i hope you wouldn't do anyways
common sense hygeine, really, they just are un informed
my hands are to little to hold nancy;s way, lol, i gotta use a towel
i will copy the link to this page and post for you on pt

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

Oh I hope he's ok. Pigeons are my favorite. You go Astra!! Yea, I get so many folks getting weird about birds. Don't eat the poop LOL!! exactly.
Psychobird - I have to be sure to mark your page for my bird guidance!!! Does this bird have a name???

[psychobird]

oh and you might want to use a deeper dish, they drink differently than other birds, kind of use their beaks like a straw, make sure water is at least an inch deep

[psychobird]

pji's are def one of my favorites too, i allready made the wish mistake this year wishing for babies, probably gonna get a hundred and be kicking my self in the butt for making the wish mistake

[psychobird]

i'm orignally from minnesota too nancy, musta been sumthin in the water

[psychobird]

gonna post some links to rehabbers that may be close to you, i love it when someone brings me a piji and are willing to keep them as a pet if they can't be released, just make sure you ask first

http://www.mary.cc/rehabbersoutsideus.html






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What you should do if you find a sick, injured or orphaned wild animal


Wildlife belongs in the wild. Occasionally, people will find juvenile wildlife that appears to be orphaned, sick or injured. The public should avoid handling wildlife to prevent bites and scratches. Some species can carry diseases and parasites that are harmful to humans. Injured wildlife also requires specialized and immediate care to recover and return to the wild. Under the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, a person may only keep wildlife for 24 hours to transport it to a wildlife custodian for care or medical attention or to relocate it following capture as a problem animal.

Juvenile wild animals do not make good pets because they become difficult to handle as they grow. Once used to humans, released animals are not likely to survive in the wild because they do not have the necessary skills to stay alive. They may also be attracted to people, leading to their eventual death. Wild animals can also be attracted to properties that provide shelter and/or food, resulting in conflict and property damage.

Orphaned Wildlife

Just because a young animal is alone does not mean it is orphaned. It is normal for some species to leave their offspring temporarily alone, especially during the day. For example, deer and cottontail rabbits spend much of the day away from their well-camouflaged offspring to minimize the chance of predators finding them.

An exception would be the Virginia opossum, which spend the first three months of life in the female’s pouch. If you find a juvenile opossum alone, it is safe to assume that it is in need of help.

To determine if young wildlife is truly orphaned:
Check the animal periodically for 24 to 48 hours to see if it is still around, but keep your distance.

Keep cats and dogs away from the area where the young animal is; the adult will not return if it is noisy or if predators or people are close by.

Signs of orphaning, injury or illness may include:
Blood, wounds or swelling on the body

Lethargy or coldness to the touch

Body covered in fleas

Unusual or uneven loss of fur or feathers

Vocalizing and/or following humans around

A fawn that is wandering around

Contact with a domestic cat

Difficult or raspy breathing or sneezing

A dangling leg or wing

Closed eyes

Head tucked under wing

The best approach is always to leave a juvenile wild animal alone unless you are certain it has been abandoned or it is injured.

If you find an injured, sick or orphaned wild animal, contact a wildlife custodian who can provide the specialized and immediate care necessary to help the animal. If you must handle it, seek the advice of a wildlife custodian to minimize risk of injury to yourself and to the animal. Wear protective clothing and equipment, such as leather gloves, to avoid bites or scratches, and wash hands well after handling the animal.

Diseased or Dead Wildlife

If you suspect there is a public health risk from a sick wild animal, such as rabies, or you or your pet had contact with a suspected rabid animal, contact your local Public Health Unit immediately. Rabies is fatal for humans and animals if not treated. Symptoms of rabies and several other diseases in animals can include tremors, aggressive behaviour, partial paralysis, convulsions, and loss of fear of humans.
To report a dead crow, raven or blue-jay bird contact your local Public Health Unit. To report other dead animals or birds contact the Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre (CCWHC).

Who to contact:

Provincial Wildlife Rehabilitation Centres



Nova Scotia

Saskatchewan



New Brunswick

Alberta



Quebec

British Columbia



Ontario

Yukon



Manitoba






Alberta

Province-wide: Alberta Society for Injured Birds of Prey
Tel: 780-922-3024
E-mail: asibp@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

Calgary: Calgary Wildlife Rehabilitation Society (CWRS)
Tel: 403-239-2488
E-mail: calgaryw@telus.net

Cochrane: Cochrane Ecological Institute – Cochrane Wildlife Reserve
Tel: 403-932-5632
E-mail: cei@nucleus.com

Edmonton: Wildlife Rehabilitation Society of Edmonton
Tel: 780-914-4118
E-mail: WRSE@oanet.com

Lethbridge area: Coaldale Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 403-345-4262

Red Deer: Medicine River Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 403-728-3467
E-mail: mrwrc@telusplanet.net

Southern region, Rockyview municipal district: Alberta Institute for Wildlife Conservation
Tel: 403-946-2361
E-mail: info@aiwc.ca

British Columbia

Province-wide: Wildlife Rehabilitators Network of British Columbia
Tel: 250-847-5101
E-mail: info@wrnbc.org

Burnaby: The Wildlife Rescue Association of British Columbia
Tel: 604-526-7275
E-mail: info@wildliferescue.ca

Courtenay: Mountainaire Avian Rescue Society
Tel: 250-337-2021

Delta: Orphaned Wildlife Rehabilitation Society
Tel: 604-946-3171
E-mail: owlrehab@dccnet.com

Langley: Critter Care Wildlife Society
Tel: 604-530-2064
E-mail: crittercare1@shaw.ca

Prince Rupert: Prince Rupert Wildlife Rehab Shelter
Tel: 250-624-4159
E-mail: wildlife@citytel.net

Abbotsford: Elizabeth's Wildlife Center Society
Tel: 604-852-9173

Sunshine Coast (Gibsons): Gibsons Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 604-886-4989
E-mail: gwrc@sunshine.net

Vancouver: Marine Mammal Rescue, Vancouver Aquarium Marine Science Centre
Tel: 604-258-SEAL (7325)
E-mail: rescue@vanaqua.org

Victoria: BC SPCA Wild Arc - Wild Animal Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 250-478-9453
E-mail: info@wildarc.com


Manitoba

Île Des Chênes: Wildlife Haven Rehabilitation Centre (aka Manitoba Wildlife Rehabilitation Organization)
Tel: 204-878-3740
E-mail: mwrocent@skyweb.ca

Winnipeg: Prairie Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 204-510-1855
email: pwrcentre@gmail.com
Web: www.pwildlife.ca




New Brunswick

Moncton: Greater Moncton SPCA
Tel: (506) 857-8698

Sackville: Atlantic Wildlife Institute
Tel: (506) 364-1902
E-mail: awi@xplornet.com


Nova Scotia

Colchester county (Hilden): Cobequid Wildlife Rehabilitation Center
Tel: 902 893-0253
E-mail: cwrc@cwrc.net

Seaforth: Hope for Wildlife Society
Tel: 902-452-3339
E-mail: info@hopeforwildlife.net

Shubenacadie Provincial Wildlife Park
Tel: (902) 758-2040
E-mail: visserbj@gov.ns.ca

Chester: Spruce Cove Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: (902) 275-1373
E-mail: sprucecove@bwr.eastlink.ca

Tantallon: Final Flight Aviary Wild Bird Rescue
Tel: (902) 826-7468
E-mail: schoonerview@sprint.ca

Ellershouse: Angel Wings Wild Songbird Sanctuary
Tel: (902) 798-4768
E-mail: shonna13@ca.inter.net


Ontario

Public Health Units:
call 1-866-532-3161 between 8:30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Monday to Friday, or visit www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/contact/phu/phuloc_mn.html for a list of offices.

Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre:
call 1-866-673-4781, or visit http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/toce.shtml

Ontario Wildlife Rehabilitation and Education Network (OWREN):
visit www.owren-online.org, contact info@owren-online.org or call 905-735-9556

Local Humane Society or local branch of the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA):
visit http://ontariospca.ca/, call 1-888-668-7722 or the Ontario SPCA Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre at 705-534-4350.

Ottawa: Wild Bird Care Centre
Tel: 613-828-2849
E-mail: mojo@wildbirdcarecentre.org

Rockwood: SOAR - Songbirds Only Avian Rehabilitation
Tel: 519-856-4510
E-mail: drake@sentex.net

Sarnia: For the Birds Rehabilitation Services
Tel: 519-344-3229
E-mail: jbiggs@rivernet.net

Ottawa County (North Gower): Rideau Valley Wildlife Sanctuary
Tel: 613-258-9480
E-mail: rideauwildlife@ripnet.com

Kitchener-Waterloo: Turtle Haven
Tel: 519-745-4334
E-mail: uros@sympatico.ca

Essex County (Amherstburg): Wings Avian Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 519-736-8172
E-mail: wings@mnsi.net

Toronto: Toronto Wildlife Centre
Tel: 416-631-0662

Utterson: A Wing And A Prayer, Muskoka Centre for Wild Birds
Tel: 705-385-1488
E-mail: jenright@primus.ca

Windsor: Erie Wildlife Rescue, Inc.
Tel: 519-969-3919

Quebec

Montreal: Urban Animal Advocates, Wildlife Rescue and Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 514-366-9965
E-mail: uaawildlife@yahoo.com

Southwest region, Montérégie (Hudson) : Le Nichoir Bird Rehabilitation Centre
Tel: 450-458-2809
E-mail: lenichoir@hotmail.com

http://wildlife.rescueshelter.com/ca

http://wildliferehabinfo.org/Contact_Intnl.htm#CANADA

also not sure if you can afford to pay for a vet, but you could tell them that he is from your loft and got hit when you flew your birds

[astra]

ok,

So, I tried feeling his legs:

1. He brings his left leg under him when he sits/lies there. I felt it, it seemed ok, although, fingers looked damaged and injured - the photo with the bloody dot is his left leg.

2. He cannot bring his right leg under him, so it sticks out twisted as in the photo.
Yes, some fingers are black - I think they were even cooler to the touch, which might mean they are dying or dead.
I felt his right leg - I don't know, maybe, it's just because I don't know what I am feeling, but I didn't feel any breaks anywhere...
I was trying to think of how it would be in mammals - you would feel the rupture in the bone etc. But birds are so much more delicate and their bones are so thin, that I am afraid I am not feeling the break if there is one.
But it didnt feel broken. It felt warm to touch, too.
I tried comparing both legs, and they felt pretty much the same.
But he still cannot bring his right leg under himself.

3. His right wing seems to be ok now. Maybe, it looked damaged because he cannot prop himself on that right leg and that's why he was spreading his right wing.
Because again - it felt ok. And again, it might be that I don't know what I am feeling. But it felt fine. I tried spreading his right wing and all feathers seem to be fine, too.
But I definitely, could not spread and feel as well his left wing because it is whole and he resisted me, and I didn't want to injure him accidentally by forcefully feeling it.

He even tried to flutter out of my hands.

i tried keeping his head covered, but he kept peeking out, he absolutely had to see what was going on. don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I didn't get to look into his mouth, but for all this time nothing cheesy came out (sorry, had to smile here because "cheesy" description reminded me of the living dead moving with that "cheesy" stuff coming out of their mouths - sorry, this must be a needed comic relief if at all possible, because I have been very stressed out).

So, nothing cheesy. I assume, if there was anything cheesy I'd see it somewhere.

He pooped all over my jacket (I hope that stuff comes off ;)).
Because squirrel poop never came off my tshirts awhile back.

So, now I put him in a box, dark and quiet (not too dark though, just semi-covered the box), with some dry bread, some wet bread and a lid with water.
As I said before, when I came to take him from the office, he crawled out of my jacket and was right by the lid with water, and the lid was empty. So I assume he drank some, he might have spilled some, too, but there was nothing wet in the box, so most likely, he drank most of it.

So, that's where I am right now.

I will keep calling vet clinics, but looks like no one wants to see him.

I will keep trying to register on that pigeon site, but they are being difficult with their registration process.

So, if there is anything else I need / could do - please share.

and THANK YOU!!!!:grouphug

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

Wish I could run over to help you Jodi, I'd love to learn NO ONE does birds around here - so I 'wing' it - I'm going to call you with next batch. Lots of Robins. Sorry - back to Astra's Pij!

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

i'm orignally from minnesota too nancy, musta been sumthin in the water

:wahoo

Oxbow Park by Rochester Minnesota got me started at 7 yrs old (they had wildlife camp) got me started into North American Wildlife !!!

Astra so brave!!! Wish I could help you too! Hugs!

[astra]

thanks!
Of course, I forgot to attach photos:

[astra]

oh and you might want to use a deeper dish, they drink differently than other birds, kind of use their beaks like a straw, make sure water is at least an inch deep
yes, it is deep enough.
Since he cannot prop himself, I didn't give him anything too deep - just at his beak level

[psychobird]

okay, the cheesy stuff (lol) would be in his thoat, it a common ailment in piji's especially when they are under stress
it's called trichomoniasis or canker as piji people call it
if you keep him you will need to check his mouth at least once a day, it's very treatable with flagyl
the toes make me think they have hair wrapped around them, but that wouldn't cause him to hold his leg like that
he must have a high up break
hopefully not in the hip
for now i would roll some fleece and make sort of a donut to prop him up in, hopefully he will stay put
he needs seed, bread is no good for them, will fill him up but has virtually no nutritional value
do you have any metacam???

[psychobird]

and baytril?

[psychobird]

got this from charis on pt
Originally Posted by altgirl35
do you know of any members that rehab up in quebec??
someone on the squirrell board needs help with an injured piji
here's the link
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=33419
she wasn't able to register for some reason

Quebec has been difficult. I made dozens of calls and came up with zip. I do have a veterinarian though. He may know of someone.

Dr. Sikorski
Clinique Veterinarian Villeray-Papineau
7655 Papineau
Montreal, Quebec
H2E2H1
514-593-6777
__________________
Charis




If all the beasts were
gone, men would die
from great loneliness of
spirit, for whatever
happens to the beasts
also happens to the man.
Seattle 1736-1866

[astra]

okay, the cheesy stuff (lol) would in his thoat, it a common ailment in piji's especially when they are under stress
it's called trichomoniasis or canker as piji people call it
if you keep him you will need to check his mouth at least once a day, it's very treatable with flagyl
the toes make me think they have hair wrapped around them, but that wouldn't cause him to hold his leg like that
he must have a high up break
hopefully not in the hip
for now i would roll some fleece and make sort of a donut to prop him up in, hopefully he will stay put
he needs seed, bread is no good for them, will fill him up but has virtually no nutritional value
do you have any metacam???

will do the fleece roll as you said.

i will get the bird seed tomorrow.
for now i have some millet grains - will they do?
I have no meds :(

what if the break is at the hip?... what are his chances then?... Now that you said it, it might be a break at the hip since he cannot pull his leg under himself..

Poor little guy...

I will keep calling the numbers

[astra]

got this from charis on pt
Originally Posted by altgirl35
do you know of any members that rehab up in quebec??
someone on the squirrell board needs help with an injured piji
here's the link
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=33419
she wasn't able to register for some reason

Quebec has been difficult. I made dozens of calls and came up with zip. I do have a veterinarian though. He may know of someone.

Dr. Sikorski
Clinique Veterinarian Villeray-Papineau
7655 Papineau
Montreal, Quebec
H2E2H1
514-593-6777
__________________
Charis




If all the beasts were
gone, men would die
from great loneliness of
spirit, for whatever
happens to the beasts
also happens to the man.
Seattle 1736-1866

THAN YOU!!!!
I will call this doc first thing tomorrow morning

[Scooterzmom]

There is a fantastic place for bird rehab in Quebec, but it is seasonal and I don't know if they are open yet. It's called LE NICHOIR, located in Hudson Qc, just 10 minutes from where I live. I believe they do have volunteers who will take the birds in until the refuge itself is open and they do have excellent vet services for them.

http://lenichoir.org/ and the phone number is 450 458-2809

These people are super competent, the lady who runs it is in fact the person who was called upon by the US to set up the bird clean-up/rescue for the Gulf coast oil disaster.

[astra]

There is a fantastic place for bird rehab in Quebec, but it is seasonal and I don't know if they are open yet. It's called LE NICHOIR, located in Hudson Qc, just 10 minutes from where I live.

http://lenichoir.org/ and the phone number is 450 458-2809

These people are super competent, the lady who runs it is in fact the person who was called upon by the US to set up the bird clean-up/rescue for the Gulf coast oil disaster.
Thanks, Scooterzmom,

I called them earlier today and left a message.

Well, just this very minute a woman called me, said she was given my number by this Nichoir place.

She said she could take him, BUT... she won't give him back to me.
She said that if after she examined him he proved to be non-releasable, she would put him down.

So, now I am thinking of maybe finding a vet who could look at him and tell me what his chances are.
Because if he has a chance to be a NR, then, I will take that chance.

But so far, no one except for this rehabber-lady called me back

[Nancy in New York]

okay, the cheesy stuff (lol) would be in his thoat, it a common ailment in piji's especially when they are under stress
it's called trichomoniasis or canker as piji people call it
if you keep him you will need to check his mouth at least once a day, it's very treatable with flagyl
the toes make me think they have hair wrapped around them, but that wouldn't cause him to hold his leg like that
he must have a high up break
hopefully not in the hip
for now i would roll some fleece and make sort of a donut to prop him up in, hopefully he will stay put
he needs seed, bread is no good for them, will fill him up but has virtually no nutritional value
do you have any metacam???

astra, I am just posting a picture so that you understand what psychobird meant. Excellent idea by the way, I had to do this for one of my robins that could never stand...:shakehead
I took a towel, at least 40 inches long, and folded it in half and then in half again. Then I taped the end that you see loose in the photo, you want to tape it or secure it somehow because if the bird is flailing around, it will unwind, (The towel, not the bird...:D) Then you can securely wrap some fleece around that. I found that a towel worked really well, as long as it was wrapped in fleece...Also, make sure that you don't make the donut too high so that he is unable to drink...:thumbsup
:Love_Icon
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_3927.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_3928.jpg

[astra]

astra, I am just posting a picture so that you understand what psychobird meant. Excellent idea by the way, I had to do this for one of my robins that could never stand...:shakehead
I took a towel, at least 40 inches long, and folded it in half and then in half again. Then I taped the end that you see loose in the photo, you want to tape it or secure it somehow or if the bird is flayling around, it will unwind, (The towel, not the bird...:D) Then you can securely wrap some fleece around that. I found that a towel worked really well, as long as it was wrapped in fleece...Also, make sure that you don't make the donut too high so that he is unable to drink...:thumbsup
:Love_Icon
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_3927.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_3928.jpg
thank you, Nancy!
You always have some of the best visuals :). Will do that.

Also, thank you for your previous post of describing how to hold him.

Since he started getting nervous and fluttering this time, I left him alone, and will continue my investigation tomorrow.

[psychobird]

aww, that's too bad she wouldn't give him back, but if you think it may be the hip or pelvis it's very painful and not sure what his chances are
he def could use some pain meds, can you get your hands on any anti biotics?

[astra]

aww, that's too bad she wouldn't give him back, but if you think it may be the hip or pelvis it's very painful and not sure what his chances are
he def could use some pain meds, can you get your hands on any anti biotics?
no, unfortunately, I don't have any ABs - neither human (as I don't use them) nor animal, because I don't have pets and none of my acquaintances do either.

I will ask around tomorrow for sure, but what bothers me is the possibility of the hip injury... Darn all these vets! Why can't they at least look at him, I am not asking them to take him or anything.

What would be symptoms of a hip injury?...

[psychobird]

it's not that they can't be repaired, but they are difficult to stabalize and diagnose the severity without an xray, i would tell the vets hes your pet

[redwuff]

You're doing great Astra. Praying for you and da bird.

Trysh

[Scooterzmom]

Thanks, Scooterzmom,

I called them earlier today and left a message.

Well, just this very minute a woman called me, said she was given my number by this Nichoir place.

She said she could take him, BUT... she won't give him back to me.
She said that if after she examined him he proved to be non-releasable, she would put him down.

So, now I am thinking of maybe finding a vet who could look at him and tell me what his chances are.
Because if he has a chance to be a NR, then, I will take that chance.

But so far, no one except for this rehabber-lady called me back

Maybe you can ask the lady the name of the vet they use though. I know they do have a vet who sees their injured birds and he must be from somewhere around their place (i.e. Hudson). If she won't give it to you then call the vets from Hudson and St-Lazare and Rigaud and ask them if they see birds or if they see the birds from the Nichoir... then maybe you can just take him there yourself.

[Scooterzmom]

it's not that they can't be repaired, but they are difficult to stabalize and diagnose the severity without an xray, i would tell the vets hes your pet

I was going to suggest the same - telling them he's your pet. There is a vet who does exotics in Lachine. Dr. Gauvin is his name. Don't have the number handy but you can look it up I guess. He operated on my little budgie some 5 years back... he's good. His receptionist is a real Cerberus though, so yes... do say and insist that he's your pet!

[psychobird]

I wish someone from pt Would make contact
Even someone who has a loft would be able to at least check him over
And give thier opinion, how bout seeing if you have any pigeon racing clubs in the area, or someone that does wedding releases (which I think is a terrible practice btw)

[Scooterzmom]

Decent vet care for anything else than cats, dogs and horses is PATHETIC in this province!!!! Quebec doesn't give a hoot about animals, or so it seems. I'm especially horrified always at the lack of help out there for wildlife or any "unusual" animal :soapbox

[astra]

Decent vet care for anything else than cats, dogs and horses is PATHETIC in this province!!!! Quebec doesn't give a hoot about animals, or so it seems. I'm especially horrified always at the lack of help out there for wildlife or any "unusual" animal :soapbox
yes, I noticed that...

what a disappointment! initially, when I learned that squirrels are legal in QC, I was mildly excited hoping that finding a vet to look at a squirrel would be easier (in ON - that's a total dead end). But it looks like that's not the case.

But this is a pigeon! Just an ordinary pigeon! Gosh, why does it have to be so difficult!

Anyways, I asked one more person, will wait to hear.

I will keep calling vets and yes, I will say that he is my pet pigeon.

I doubt that lady will tell him who her vet is. She was very upfront and honest with me about her view on a non-releasable adult animal.
She told me with certainty that adult animals cannot live in captivity and become miserable.
Despite her take on NRs, she sounded pretty good on the phone, and besides, arguing would be pointless anyway. But, of course, I could tell her how I know of so many adult wild animals who took to indoor life after they became NRs due to injuries or traumas.

I don't know - how far is Lachine from downtown Montreal?...
I won't have my car back until after next week.
And of course, this had to happen 3 weeks before the end of the semester- the craziest and most stressful busiest time when I have no time for anything.

anyways, tomorrow I will keep calling vets.
Hopefully, something will work out.
I will definitely not give him away to that lady tomorrow. Not yet. Not until i tried everything else.
On the other hand, I just hope I am not prolonging his misery.

[Scooterzmom]

yes, I noticed that...

what a disappointment! initially, when I learned that squirrels are legal in QC, I was mildly excited hoping that finding a vet to look at a squirrel would be easier (in ON - that's a total dead end). But it looks like that's not the case.

But this is a pigeon! Just an ordinary pigeon! Gosh, why does it have to be so difficult!

Anyways, I asked one more person, will wait to hear.

I will keep calling vets and yes, I will say that he is my pet pigeon.

I doubt that lady will tell him who her vet is. She was very upfront and honest with me about her view on a non-releasable adult animal.
She told me with certainty that adult animals cannot live in captivity and become miserable.
Despite her take on NRs, she sounded pretty good on the phone, and besides, arguing would be pointless anyway. But, of course, I could tell her how I know of so many adult wild animals who took to indoor life after they became NRs due to injuries or traumas.

I don't know - how far is Lachine from downtown Montreal?...
I won't have my car back until after next week.
And of course, this had to happen 3 weeks before the end of the semester- the craziest and most stressful busiest time when I have no time for anything.

anyways, tomorrow I will keep calling vets.
Hopefully, something will work out.
I will definitely not give him away to that lady tomorrow. Not yet. Not until i tried everything else.
On the other hand, I just hope I am not prolonging his misery.

Lachine is actually not very far from downtown. By car about10 to 15 minutes outside of rush hour. But I believe you can also take a bus to there - the 211 I believe... but if you take the address and call A-U-T-O-B-U-S they will tell you exactly what bus to take and how long it might take you.

[psychobird]

I understand that view on nr's, but not all will be miserable
Its sad to see a wild bird caged that is miserable and terrified
Some settle in just fine, and with proper care and cageing can be very content
And happy
Btw, pigeons are actually a domesticated bird, his chances of being content In Captivity are higher than most
Now on the other hand, you don't have a ton of time
If no one can be found to help you today, I think you should take him
To the Rehabber, he's in pain, and needs medication to not only make him feel better, but to get better
You only have a small window of time ( mbe 48 hrs) to splint that break before it starts calcifying in the wrong place and can never be repaired, and time is running out
He could have to live in pain his whole life and that's no life

[CritterMom]

Is there any reason this guy can't have some infant ibuprophen?

[psychobird]

Not sure if it's safe for birds, I'll check the willlowbrook book when I get home from dropping my daughter off at school

[psychobird]

no info in the willowbrook
but i found this
http://dms.dartmouth.edu/arc/arc/analgesia_anesthesia/pdf/bird_dosage.pdf
if you get some tell me the mg/ml and we can dose him

[psychobird]

looks like she was able to get a post up on pt here;s the link
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/need-urgent-help-in-montreal-qc-60365.html

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

no knowledge here, just adding my support...:grouphug

[astra]

I think I got a vet appy. I was even hesitant to post because I am afraid to blow it up. Please pray they don't turn me down when I get there and that his injuries are treatable, although I fear the worst because his little toes look black. He is alert and fluttering but again- afraid the injury might be serious.

[psychobird]

you don't have to tell us who he is, piji can survive with a couple of missing toes, so don't worry about that
its that high beak i'm worried about, crossing fingers it's treatable

[Nancy in New York]

:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[astra]

I just got back from the vet.

Will have to post later because I have to leave again for another errand.

I was very close to not coming back with the piji, but...

I am back with the piji...

Don' want to get hopes up because his prognosis is not that great, but he is still alive...

I will post more detail later

THANK YOU ALL!:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

:Love_Icon :grouphug :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

I just got back from the vet.

Will have to post later because I have to leave again for another errand.

I was very close to not coming back with the piji, but...

I am back with the piji...

Don' want to get hopes up because his prognosis is not that great, but he is still alive...

I will post more detail later

THANK YOU ALL!:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug
:) :grouphug :Love_Icon
Hurry up and get home....:tilt

[astra]

Ok,

So here it is:

1. At first, the vet looked at his legs and wing and said that the injuries were very serious and there was nothing we could really do.
He said that the right wing was broken, almost completely detached.
The right leg has multiple fractures in tibia (he even said something like 6-7 breaks in there, and given that a bird's tibia is such a fragile tiny thing, that tibia is pretty much crushed).

He went on to say that for the optimum recovery an extensive surgery would be needed, and maybe, putting a metal pin in there to replace the crushed tibia (that's how bad it was he said). And even then, there was very little chance he could fly and live in the wild again.

He also looked at the left - better leg - and it turned out to be broken, too. Not as bad as the right leg, but broken nonetheless.
It looked like it is broken at the "ankle" or whatever bird's equivalent of an ankle is. But tibia and femur must be fine since he could bring that leg underneath.

So, the injuries are extensive and very serious, just as I was afraid they were.
I started crying. This pigeon so far has been very sweet. Again, maybe, I am misinterpreting it, but the whole time when I was handling it, it never tried to peck or bite me. My assumption is that birds would try to bite just like wild mammals do. But again, I don't know.
Then, when the vet was examining it, it didn't try to bite or peck until the vet started really touching its worst leg.

I guess, because I was crying the vet said he would gas him and take a better look.
So, I waited and I thought that he would just come and just confirm his initial grim diagnosis.

But he came back with the pigeon, still a bit under the gas, but he stabilized him. What he did is he wrapped the pigeon's legs in a fixed position and wrapped the pigeon so that the pigeon cannot move its wings (I will post pics).
He said that the pigeon would have to stay like that for two weeks.
In two weeks he will remove the bandages/wrapping and see how much recovery there is.
In the meantime, I will have to feed the pigeon and clean its poop (i need detailed instructions on those things).

The vet also gave him a shot of Abs and told me to come back once a week for an injection. The pigeon will need a total of 6 injections once per week (that is if it shows some promising recovery after two weeks of being immobilized).

The vet agreed with me to give him a chance at a non-releasable life, because you can only euthanize once.

So, yes, the pigeon is still here and has a slight chance.
But everything will depend on how promising its progress will be after two weeks. Will it be able to walk at least?
The vet said that it is definite that it won't be able to fly again because of the broken wing.

So, my question is: can a pigeon be content if it cannot fly anymore?...
Is there a chance that after having a broken wing, it could fly at least within a room, or hop-fly from place to place?...
I just cannot imagine that a bird that cannot fly can be happy and content. Especially, a wild bird.
Which means I am still torn what the right thing to do would be in this situation.

Now,
1) What is the best way to clean him?... since he cannot move, I will have to clean his poop.
Do I just clean him with a wet cloth/paper towel?
Can I put his bottom in water?

2) The vet gave me some pellets. He said it was a nutritionally complete food for birds. I will need to crush a few pellets and make a pasty consistency and feed with a syringe.
What is the technique of feeding a pigeon with a syringe?
Do they aspirate like squirrels?
Do I have to use 1cc syringes only or can I use a larger one?
How do I "insert" the syringe?
How do I help him drink? - with a syringe, too? How?

3)I am thinking of setting him up in such a way for the next two weeks, as to allow him to see me and what's going on in the room. Is that ok?

He is completely immobilized right now.
when I am here, he can "entertain" himself by watching me, my computer screen etc (am I assuming too much here?).
But what else, if anything, is there that could keep him entertained?... when I am in school, he will just be sitting here in one spot all bandaged and wrapped.

4) Also, the vet told me to come for weekly ABs injection for the next 6 weeks (that is if he shows significant improvement after 2 weeks of being bandaged).
The vet said that no pain meds were needed, because eventually, through being bandaged like that, his legs will feel kind of numb and he won't feel the pain anymore.

So, this is the story.

I will post pics later.

PS Now I have to go and post on the pigeon site.
:thankyou :grouphug

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Wonderful learning experience Astra...
Don't beat yourself up too much.
When I was young ( I think I was young once) I brought in LOTS of birds. Starlings mostly, they have short tails when they are young and can not fly so many are victim to cats , kids, you know.
Anyway try as I did with Dad the DR's help most lived long enough to get strong enough to go out and then, die . We never could figure it out.
You will be fine if you don't over think everything.
Relax... be gentle... do what the DR says ..
what ever happens will be the right thing.
So good of you to try.
If he were still out side he would be hiding in the darkest spot he could find to feel safe and better. so dont worry about him entertaining himself.

[redwuff]

Astra, what a tough day. Thank goodness that you were able to find a vet, even though the news was not great. But we already new that he was in tough shape.

I am down south rooting you and piji on. It sounds very tenuous but as long as piji is drawing a breath, there is a chance.

[psychobird]

okaaayyyy! not so bad news
1st off, feeding..
remember that towel roll? set him up like that put 2 small ramekens/ custard dishes right in front of him so he can reach DOWN to eat, he probably wont' eat the pellets but you can offer
he needs seed
plus get a bit of gravel and grit make sure it's the kind that has oyster shell in it for calcium, throw a pinch or two on top of his seeds everyday, he will eat what he wants
IF he doesn't eat, then we will talk about tube feeding or pea and corn pooping, but he should eat, i had a baby i needed to immoblized like that once and he could eat no problem

next
poop... you do not want to let him get wet because of the bandages, so no baths
soo, what i would do if you can find it, is line that towel with rubber shelf liner
you know the stuff that u use to put under a slippery rug to stop it from skidding, or put your fancy glasses on in the shelf?
cut to size , it will allow the wet part of the poo to go away from him, solids will stay on top and you will need to clean him up with a damp towel to make sure his vent stays clear
till you get that stuff just put a folded piece of paper towel under his bum and change it often

[psychobird]

okay, do not syringe him, very easy to kill pigeons that way

[psychobird]

btw you can scrape the big stuff off the shelf stuff and run it thru the washer with bleach and detergent and re-use
sorry so many posts, i want to cover everything

[psychobird]

i wouldn't worry about entertaining him, he needs as little stress and as much rest as possible over the next 2 weeks
he may not act like it but he is afraid of you, piji's usually behave well and don't bite especially when they don't feel good
not to say i have never been bit, i have, but it kinda makes me laugh when they are acting bad ass after dealing with parrots, and raptors
he can't do it right now but one thing they do when they don't want you to touch them is fluff up, kinda growl and whack you with their wing, i call that WING FU!
you can make friends with him later
whether he will be content to live with you unflighted only time will tell
i have parrrots that don't get to fly but they are happy :), so don't let his wing be an issue or deciding factor
and i'm guessing he will have at least one good working leg at the end of this
i have seen wilds surving just fine with one leg so as long as he can move around he should be okay too
okay, did i forget anything?

[psychobird]

oh and the other custard dish is for water

[astra]

thanks, psychobird!!!!

So glad that I decided to wait for answers before attempting syringe feeding.

So, that gravel and other fancy stuff - do I get that at pet stores?

The vet told me to make a pasty kind of meal out of the pellets - could I put that in "dishes", too?
I am kind of glad that I don't have to syringe feed him - I think he gets very stressed out when I have to pick him up, and he feels so fragile when I hold him.

Will do with poop as you said.
Now, my concern about poop - I tried sort of cleaning it since yesterday, but looks like some of it got dried on his feathers. What's the best way to handle that?... I am afraid to hurt him if I start "scraping" that dried poop off his bottom, that's why I thought of using some water.
But since - no water, what can I do about the dried poop?

Also, so, since he does not need "entertainment" - should I keep him in his box?... or should I take him out, make a "nest" out of that towel and let him observe him in the room?...

Now, which bird seed do I get?..
I see at supermarkets bird seed for wild birds and some other kind. Will that do?... at least for the following two weeks?...

[astra]

i
whether he will be content to live with you unflighted only time will tell
i have parrrots that don't get to fly but they are happy :), so don't let his wing be an issue or deciding factor
and i'm guessing he will have at least one good working leg at the end of this
i have seen wilds surving just fine with one leg so as long as he can move around he should be okay too
okay, did i forget anything?
oh now, that wing won't be the deciding factor.:)
I know that injured animals often are very accepting of their limitations and find a way to enjoy their new life (unlike many humans).
I guess, I am asking that question, because I so want to make sure that we do what's best for him, not what I think is best for him.

And I don't even know whether it's a he or a she, but at this point - does not matter.

yes, it looks like there will be at least one working leg and one working wing (all on the left side).

[psychobird]

you can get gravel and grit at pet stores it's comes in a little box for canaries n such
also can get it at feed stores geared for chickens, also check for pigeon seed, many carry it here in the states
i would buy a higher quality seed, if you can't find pigeon and dove food, get cockatiel, may even want to mix a little canary seed in also has more vitamins dusted into it
if he does end up staying with you, you can order just about everything from a pigeon supply on line, not sure whats in Canada
i use foy's, BTW you can get just about every medication you can think of from a pigeon supply online
you can try the pellet mush but he probably more likely to eat the pellets over that, but hey give it a shot, what kind of pellets are they?
just a heads up, every pigeon i have ever met prefers a different kind of seed, he will pick and choose his favorites, so always make sure he has plenty of fresh seed everyday, and toss the uneaten stuff out to the birds outside

[astra]

it does not say on the package what kind.

He said that he orders it in bulk and it one of the best out there.

They are little rounded and greenish in color.
I will post a pic tomorrow (the light right now isn't good and it won't come out right).

Ok, will look for that seed.

I hope he can stay and find some contentment.

So, should I keep him inside the box?... or should I take him out of the box for a few hours a day?...
What's the best way to "house" him right now?

[psychobird]

I would set him up so he has light from the windows

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

I just love you guys!! Go Astra!! Go Psychobird!!!:Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

And this is yet another reason why, from the day you came on the board.....that I just love you!!!!!!!:Love_Icon

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

Astra, now you have a very still pigeon as your sketch model ! Com'on little Pigi get better for Astra!!!

[Scooterzmom]

You're really doing a super job for this poor little guy. He's so lucky he was put on your path. Praying for you and your feathered friend, sending healing vibes. Have you thought of a name for him? If not... how about Lindy? Short for Lindbergh but that way it could be interpreted as male or female :)... or just Crash ... poor thing... :grouphug

[psychobird]

:)

Hah! Did I say corn n pea POOPING back there?
Lol
Meant POPPING

[psychobird]

I was thinking lefty!

[astra]

Thank you all!!! For advice and moral support!

Don't know what that pea and corn popping is, but I hope I won't have to do that b/c it sounds scary, as does tubing.

As for name... don't know... we'll see... I get superstitious sometimes, so.... until I know for sure what his/her future is... or until s/he tells me what his/her name is...

Thank you all, again!!!!!!

Psychobird - thanks for taking the time to post so many times ;) making sure all bases are covered. This pigeon needs you!

[CritterMom]

This poor baby. He found the right person for sure.

I would bet that the food you have is Harrisons - it IS in fact the best, Greg Harrison is a vet who funds his research into a terrible parrot disease called PDD with a line of food. If he WILL eat it, it is extremely high quality stuff - most vets who see birds carry it in their practice.

[psychobird]

Btw, I think you might have a youngster
It was hard to tell in the pix, but I thought his legs looks more on the light pink side
Will need a better pic of his face
Make sure he's eating well
Pigeons are the easiest things to tube
Soooo easy, in fact if u put in how to tube a pigeon on you tube there are great videos there
Corn and pea popping is very easy to
You defrost some frozen corn and peas in warm water
Usually need to wrap them up like a birdie burrito
But your guy is allready a burrito
Open his beak put a piece of corn in near the back let him close his mouth and he will swallow it
Little more time consuming cause you have to do that till they are full, 30+ times
I think there may be vids on you tube of that too
In fact if his is a youngster you may want to do that anyways
He may love you for it, will take him a few times though

[psychobird]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU
But I use a feeding needle, curved #14 like this with an 10 or 20 cc lure lock syringe, get the o-ring they are worth it
http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/rehab-supplies/hand-feeding-supplies/stainless-steel-straight-needles.html
In fact if you end up keeping him. You may want to just go ahead and order it
So you are always ready if he goes off his food or you ever get a baby
What's nice about baby Pijis is they can take a lot of food and you don't have to feed often, I wish all baby birds were like that!

[psychobird]

Here the basic corn corn n pea popping but he's using his own bread balls
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=vvkyKtf92BM

[psychobird]

Just re reading everything, what did the vet say about those toes?
One more thing, i still think he needs something for pain and inflammation
I would call and see if he will give you some meloxicam, if not we can settle for the ibuprofen
My vet got back to me about it, and birds can have 5-10 mg/kg 2 times a day

[psychobird]

Here's another good vid on the bottom this page on corn n pea popping
http://m.pigeonrescue.co.uk/site/mobile?dm_path=%2Fcaringforababypigeon.htm&fw_sig_is_admin=0&fw_sig_time=1332594300568&fw_sig_access_token=bca2edfb8e5de9c8d7936cfd4ade77 33ca55760a&fw_sig_tier=1&fw_sig_url=http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/&fw_sig_permissions=none&fw_sig=03275ec94707611b2654d20b6619b6c6&fw_sig_session_key=675c903ee7ef63f9df9b041ff30a1dd b4968f08171328bdf20013895be53044f-51816156&fw_sig_potential_abuse=1&fw_sig_api_key=522b0eedffc137c934fc7268582d53a1&fw_sig_site=51816156&fw_sig_premium=1&fw_sig_permission_level=0&fw_sig_social=1&fb_sig_network=fw#0001

[astra]

ok,

so I've got cockatiel seed and some gravel - please approve.

Also, those are pics of his leg color - the pic color is a bit too intense, it's not as bright pink as it looks in the pic, but close.

Also, got pics of his beak.

If you can approximate his/her age that would be great!
And if you could determine its sex that would be nice, too.

I put those pellets and water - please see if that's an ok set up for now.
When I poured the water, he started kind of splashing it with his face. He didn't look like he was drinking it, more just splashing it.

I don't know how to open his beak. I tried, but looks like he was trying to "clench" it and would not let me open.

I decided to leave him in the box, thinking that, maybe, he will eat when I am not looking. And I think, I heard a crunch, like he was trying to eat a pellet or two. But when I checked it didn't look like he ate a lot, maybe, just some.

I wanted to try pellets first, instead of giving him corn and peas, so that he won't get picky.
If you approve of this seed, I will put some of this seed along with the pellets.

As I was afraid, some of his poop is stuck on his bottom feathers and one paw. I tried to wash it off with a wet papertowel, but it didn't work very well.
And yes, if I dip him in water, the bandage will get wet, too.

Also, when i tried to wash that old poop, he started wriggling, probably, doing his WING FU. So, I put him back.

As for fingers, the vet said that it's just dirt.
Again, I do not try to wash that dirt off right now because he must still be scared.

I have infant ibuprofen. 200mg/5ml oral suspension USP.
How do I administer that? They are pediatric drops. That's all they had at the pharmacy. They didn't have tablets.

THANK YOU!

[astra]

sorry, feel like a new member - don't know why the pics came out so large I did reduce them, and don't know why they turned on their side like that either.
But I don't have time to tweak them now.

[Nancy in New York]

sorry, feel like a new member - don't know why the pics came out so large I did reduce them, and don't know why they turned on their side like that either.
But I don't have time to tweak them now.

:wave123 And welcome to our new member astra...:D :poke
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0052.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0053.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0054.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0056.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0057.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_0058.jpg

[psychobird]

take one more pic of that gravel in a bowl, never heard of that kind
i def think it's a young bird, as for sex i can't help you with that, they look the same
when he's older we may be able to tell by behavior or if he is a she, she may lay eggs otherwise you need to dna
i think the splashing was prob his attempts to take a bath, he knows he's dirty
do the best you can with the poo, and big chunks you can get off by scraping with your nails and the rest with a warm damp cloth, hold the cloth on the poo for a minute or 2 to soften it
yes put seeds in
he may resist the pea n corn popping you just need to hold his head like in the vid and get a fingernail to open his mouth, put light pressure and he will stop resisting in a couple of seconds usually

[psychobird]

those pellets are too big for him to eat btw
you can crush some and sprinkle on his seed

[psychobird]

did you get a weight on him at the vet?
i'm guessing he is around 300
so 8mg/kg dosage would be 0.06 ml every 12 hrs

[astra]

How do you know if it's a young bird?

Also, I just saw that he spilled some seeds, so he is eating them.
Since he is eating them, will it be ok if I don't do the pea and corn popping?
Now, maybe he did start feeling better and less scared, he is trying to do more of a Wing Fu, wriggling and getting upset when I handle/hold him.
Since I want to try and get as much of that dried poop off him, as possible tomorrow, I don't want to stress him out more by pea & corn popping.

Also, how do I give him the ibuprofen? - open his mouth and spriz it in with the syringe?

:thankyou

[astra]

[B][I]
:wave123 And welcome to our new member astra...:D :poke
]
:D :poke Thanks for resizing Nancy - you are one of the major "resizers" for new members, actually!:poke ;)

[astra]

did you get a weight on him at the vet?
i'm guessing he is around 300
so 8mg/kg dosage would be 0.06 ml every 12 hrs
unfortunately, we didn't get a weight on him... I was not even thinking... we were so concerned with this To live or Not to live question, that I guess, we just forgot about all the usual procedures
But judging by the way I feel him in my hand, you must be just about right

[CritterMom]

Astra, I mentioned it earlier - can you get Rescue Remedy up there? It really is wonderful with birds. Spray it on his GOOD foot - it has alcohol and I don't want to hurt his other poor footie. It will calm him down nicely.

The building where I work is in an industrial park built on a swamp :shakehead and there is still a lot of swampland around, and a ton of birds. The mechanics probably bring me 6-10 a year that have flown into the building or the large trucks around the place and knocked themselves silly. I do the same thing for all of them - spray their feet with RR (I keep it in my purse) and put them in a little cardboard box in an indentation in some paper towels, close the lid and put them in my desk for a half hour or so. I have learned to NOT peek at them inside, because 9 times out of 10 they zip away. I think more often than not, the ones that don't die from actual injury die from shock, and RR stops that.

Can you wad up some tissue and wet it with warm water and tuck it under him so it is against that wad of poop and not the bandage? Just let him sit on it for a bit and then go back and clean it after it softens. If you are home, you can put tissue or TP under him and check him ever 20 minutes or so, removing the soiled tissue and replacing it. Hard to do that at work or school. Is there any way you can build up the area under him so that his back end is not resting on the ground, so he isn't directly against the poop?

[psychobird]

Use a 1ml syringe and open his mouth tilt his head back, extend his neck, I want you to look in there and you will see a hole in the back of his tongue
That is where he breathes
You need to get it past that point, you can literally fit the syringe down his throat into his crop, but for such a small amount you don't have to
I can tell he young by the color of his nares (flesh around his nostrils)
Plus adults eyes are more on the orange side his are brown
Plus you can see the feathers coming in around his beak, that's one of the last places to feather on babies
Plus his legs are light pink and brown, adult are more bright pink
I think you should try the corn n pea popping, especially since he is young and may have not been completly weaned
you need to handle him for meds anyways
I would give him about 10 pieces of corn and 10 peas
Before you feed him,, feel the area below his neck and above where his wrap is
That's his crop, feel it up good get to know how it feels
When you are done feeding him , feel it again
You should feel the difference
If he is eating seed, you can actually feel the seeds in there
Get to know that crop, it is an important tool to show you whether he is eating on his
Like I said it will be a good way to bOnd with him since he is a babe
Don't be scared, secure him well with a towel you will be a pro in no time

[astra]

Astra, I mentioned it earlier - can you get Rescue Remedy up there? It really is wonderful with birds. Spray it on his GOOD foot - it has alcohol and I don't want to hurt his other poor footie. It will calm him down nicely.

The building where I work is in an industrial park built on a swamp :shakehead and there is still a lot of swampland around, and a ton of birds. The mechanics probably bring me 6-10 a year that have flown into the building or the large trucks around the place and knocked themselves silly. I do the same thing for all of them - spray their feet with RR (I keep it in my purse) and put them in a little cardboard box in an indentation in some paper towels, close the lid and put them in my desk for a half hour or so. I have learned to NOT peek at them inside, because 9 times out of 10 they zip away. I think more often than not, the ones that don't die from actual injury die from shock, and RR stops that.

Can you wad up some tissue and wet it with warm water and tuck it under him so it is against that wad of poop and not the bandage? Just let him sit on it for a bit and then go back and clean it after it softens. If you are home, you can put tissue or TP under him and check him ever 20 minutes or so, removing the soiled tissue and replacing it. Hard to do that at work or school. Is there any way you can build up the area under him so that his back end is not resting on the ground, so he isn't directly against the poop?
Thanks, CrM!

For reminding about the Remedy - forgot about it. Still all I can think about right now - want him to heal well.

Will do with the poop as you said - great idea (as usual ;)) to put something wet and let him sit on it, because that pigeon poop hardens so fast and really hard!

I will try to think of something to keep his butt off the ground... it would probably be some kind of towel roll again...
But the problem is - he is wriggling in there and moving, even while all bandaged and wrapped... need to think...

[psychobird]

Sorry for the typos, doin this on my phOne, u get the gist right?

[astra]

Use a 1ml syringe and open his mouth tilt his head back, extend his neck, I want you to look in there and you will see a hole in the back of his tongue
That is where he breathes
You need to get it past that point, you can literally fit the syringe down his throat into his crop, but for such a small amount you don't have to
I can tell he young by the color of his nares (flesh around his nostrils)
Plus adults eyes are more on the orange side his are brown
Plus you can see the feathers coming in around his beak, that's one of the last places to feather on babies
Plus his legs are light pink and brown, adult are more bright pink
I think you should try the corn n pea popping, especially since he is young and may have not been completly weaned
you need to handle him for meds anyways
I would give him about 10 pieces of corn and 10 peas
Before you feed him,, feel the area below his neck and above where his wrap is
That's his crop, feel it up good get to know how it feels
When you are done feeding him , feel it again
You should feel the difference
If he is eating seed, you can actually feel the seeds in there
Get to know that crop, it is an important tool to show you whether he is eating on his
Like I said it will be a good way to bOnd with him since he is a babe
Don't be scared, secure him well with a towel you will be a pro in no time
thanks!!! Will try!!!

Although, sounds so scary: don't know what I am feeling and everything suddenly feels the same... but will do...

So, he is young...
the only reason I thought he might be on a younger side is that he looks smaller than regular pigeons...

ok, I will try that tomorrow in the daylight.

But WILL i see that breathing hole?...

And when you say that I have to go past that, it means I will sort of go over it deeper into his neck?
Sounds like I am going to choke him sticking that syringe in there.

Now, when I give him peas and corn - do I go past that breathing hole, or do I just put it in his mouth and let him close it?

Will definitely crush the pellets.
But back when I had my deck, my deck pigeons were swallowing WHOLE shelled almonds! And almonds are twice as big if not more than these pellets. So, is it only adults who swallow whole almonds?
I was so mad at them, because they were eating my squirrels' almonds.

OK, will follow all of your suggestions.

Tomorrow will be the "pea and corn popping" day.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[astra]

Sorry for the typos, doin this on my phOne, u get the gist right?
absolutely!

You are doing a great job if this is all typed on a phone!
I HATE typing on a phone and you are writing whole paragraphs!:thumbsup :)

[CritterMom]

You may want to tuck some things around him. When I say I tuck them into paper towels, basically, it looks like they are packed for shipping! I fold their wings in, hold my hand around them loosely so they can't get them stretched, and stuff all around them with wadded paper towels - like they are in a nest - and then close the lid. You may want to hem him in a little to keep him immobile. Struggling isn't going to help him any, and oddly, once they are all tucked in they seem to calm down.

Also, if he gets very upset struggling, just put him where it is dark or cover his container. Bird calm down very quickly that way.

[psychobird]

Throats r big n stretchy, don't worry you won't choke him
Slides right in as long as yOu extend his neck
As you witnessed with the adults swallowing the almonds
I don't think he will recognize those big things as food

[psychobird]

With the peas and corn you just put it near the back and let him close and swallow

[Nancy in New York]

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/beakanatomy1.gif http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/crop-gull.jpg


For birds, there is an increased risk of aspiration pneumonia because the opening to their airway (called the "glottis") is located at the base of their tongue. NEVER put any liquid inside the bird's mouth. The best method for providing a source of hydration is by using thin slivers of peeled fruit. The fruit must not contain any peel, because certain species of birds may not be able to digest them. Fruits that contain a low acidity level and are high in water content are best: grapes, watermelon, plums, etc. Tiny slivers of scrambled eggs are also acceptable, but the moisture content is low and should be alternated with slivers of peeled fruit. This should be repeated every 30 minutes until the bird can be transported to a wildlife rehabilitator.

Each piece should be placed at the rear of the bird’s right side of the mouth. Pay careful attention to ensure that you go above and behind the glottis (see photo). Avoid letting any food or liquid particle get near the glottis, otherwise the bird will develop aspiration pneumonia. Allow the bird to close its beak and swallow. If the bird is reluctant to swallow, gently stimulate the base of its beak and throat. Sometimes setting the bird down will encourage swallowing. If the bird refuses to open its beak or is incapable of swallowing, do not attempt to pry or force it open. The delicate structure of the beak (similar to cartilage) can easily be permanently damaged.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/crop-wood-pigeons.jpg

Not only is the crop used to store food, but in pigeons and doves it creates food for squabs as well! Crop milk is produced “by a sloughing of fluid-filled cells from the lining of the crop” according to Birds of Stanford and has “more protein and fat than does cow or human milk.” Young pigeons and doves feed on the crop milk, which is produced by both male and female birds, for the first several weeks of life. Above is an image Charlie got of a young Wood Pigeon feeding on a parent’s crop milk.

[psychobird]

Thank you Nancy!
You can see he puffy crop of the piji with his mouth open too

[Nancy in New York]

Thank you Nancy!
You can see he puffy crop of the piji with his mouth open too

And his little eyes are closed....awe.:grouphug

[psychobird]

Here's some more
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_(anatomy)
Here's a baby you can really see the full crop
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Baby%20Pij%20&%20Dove%20Feeding/Maddie%20full%20crop.jpg
Here's a drawing
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/7000/7018/pigeon_7018_lg.gif

[Fireweed]

Astra, I've been following and trying to stay out of the way... but just had to tell you: You. Are. Awesome. :bowdown Love to you and your new friend. :grouphug

[psychobird]

Fooey that first link didn't work
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_(anatomy)
How bout this one

[astra]

ok, so the crop it is sort of where our chest would be (the "breastplate" area).

Also, how will I stretch his neck so that I don't wring it accidentally?
Do I just gently pull it up a bit?

Another question: I watched that video with the guy doing pea&corn popping (although, he was feeding his homemade bread). And it looked like he was really shoving that morsel into the pigeon's throat. Looked like the guy's finger disappeared up to his first knuckle.
The reason I am confused is that in the info that Nancy posted it says that one should avoid placing anything where the "breathing hole" is.
But how can the guy push that morsel of bread so deep when he cannot see where the glottis is?

Here is what I think I will do and please correct me:
I will take a thawed pea, put it into his mouth (not the beak, but a bit farther than the beak, it will be sort of in his "head" part where the beak starts) and will let him close his mouth and swallow.

When I have to give him ibuprfen, I will open his mouth and look for the glottis (hopefully, I will see it and recognize it and won't confuse it with anything else) and will direct the syringe with the meds above and beyond/behind the glottis, into his throat.

This is how i understood it all,
Please correct me as needed.

Now, I just need to be able to open his beak.

[astra]

Astra, I've been following and trying to stay out of the way... but just had to tell you: You. Are. Awesome. :bowdown Love to you and your new friend. :grouphug
Thanks for following, FW, but... don't know about the Y.A.A thing...

I am still terrified of handling him because he feels so fragile and delicate (that's how i think about birds) and I am afraid to squish him too tightly or do something or handle feathers the wrong way...

AFTER I successfully administer him the ibuprofen without aspirating the poor guy,
AFTER I can do the pea-corn popping scary procedure without choking him
AFTER I can clean all the dried poop (and will use CRM's suggestion, of course)
AFTER he is still alive and ok after two weeks,

THEN, maybe, I can say that maybe I made my first baby step towards YAA.

UNTIL then, Psychobird is the YAA, his angel and life-saver, along with her pigeon site and patience with my repeated questions, and all of you, guys, who are sending good thoughts and prayers his way because he SO needs them. So, it is all of you who are Y.A.A.:grouphug

[astra]

For birds, there is an increased risk of aspiration pneumonia because the opening to their airway (called the "glottis") is located at the base of their tongue. NEVER put any liquid inside the bird's mouth. The best method for providing a source of hydration is by using thin slivers of peeled fruit. The fruit must not contain any peel, because certain species of birds may not be able to digest them. Fruits that contain a low acidity level and are high in water content are best: grapes, watermelon, plums, etc. Tiny slivers of scrambled eggs are also acceptable, but the moisture content is low and should be alternated with slivers of peeled fruit. This should be repeated every 30 minutes until the bird can be transported to a wildlife rehabilitator.
.
THANK YOU NANCY!
As always - your visuals!
This helps a lot!:thankyou :grouphug :Love_Icon

[astra]

Here's some more
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_(anatomy)
Here's a baby you can really see the full crop
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Baby%20Pij%20&%20Dove%20Feeding/Maddie%20full%20crop.jpg
Here's a drawing
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/7000/7018/pigeon_7018_lg.gif
ok, in the drawing it looks like the crop is right at the base of his neck, above the "breastplate" bone.... I think, I am getting it...

[blessedbeingmom]

Astra, I've been following and trying to stay out of the way... but just had to tell you: You. Are. Awesome. :bowdown Love to you and your new friend. :grouphug

I second this!

[psychobird]

RIGHT!
You don't have to worry about the aspirating unless it's fluid
And even the small amount your giving him in his meds is very unlikely to aspirate him
When I was little my brothers got a bunch of pIgeons and built a little loft by our garage
They gave me a baby to raise and I did it with bread balls, and white bread, I have no idea how that bird managed to grow up healthy and beautiful but she did
She was white and red, i of course being a tomboy at 9 and wishing and always playing that i was an American Indian instead of a swede named Her redfeather


ok, so the crop it is sort of where our chest would be (the "breastplate" area).

Also, how will I stretch his neck so that I don't wring it accidentally?
Do I just gently pull it up a bit?

Another question: I watched that video with the guy doing pea&corn popping (although, he was feeding his homemade bread). And it looked like he was really shoving that morsel into the pigeon's throat. Looked like the guy's finger disappeared up to his first knuckle.
The reason I am confused is that in the info that Nancy posted it says that one should avoid placing anything where the "breathing hole" is.
But how can the guy push that morsel of bread so deep when he cannot see where the glottis is?

Here is what I think I will do and please correct me:
I will take a thawed pea, put it into his mouth (not the beak, but a bit farther than the beak, it will be sort of in his "head" part where the beak starts) and will let him close his mouth and swallow.

When I have to give him ibuprfen, I will open his mouth and look for the glottis (hopefully, I will see it and recognize it and won't confuse it with anything else) and will direct the syringe with the meds above and beyond/behind the glottis, into his throat.

This is how i understood it all,
Please correct me as needed.

Now, I just need to be able to open his beak.

[psychobird]

Oh and you are awesome, and you will be ready the next time a piji comes your way! And they will

[Scooterzmom]

Astra I must say I'm in awe of all you are doing for this poor feathered baby. :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown Keeping him & you in my prayers. :grouphug

[astra]

So, for today:

1. Just finished the "popping." He didn't make it easy.
Sometimes, I was able to put the pea/corn/piece of soaked pellet "behind" his beak, where his head starts; other times, I was able to put it deep into his beak, under his "nose" part and he would swallow it himself.

2. I tried feeling the crop, but this time I didn't feel anything: everything feels soft and mushy, and because he is so bandaged up, it's hard to tell whether the crop got bigger, or it's just that he is all bundled up like that.
But at least, now I know what to keep looking for.

3. I tried cleaning his poop and looks like one of the bandages - the leg that's bad - is really "poopy." There is no way i can clean it because that would mean soaking the bandage.
He was VERY upset when I started the cleaning

4. My biggest concern is his bad leg.
While I was cleaning him, he was kicking with his better leg, keeping it under him; he did not move the bad leg at all.
Even his toes on his bad leg didn't seem to have any feeling in them.
What if his nerves are damaged?...
What if this is not just the broken bone?...
What if he can never use that leg again?...

5. There was no way he would let me look into his mouth to see glottis to put ibuprofen. He was wriggling and I am afraid I will accidentally wring his neck.
I was only able to kind of keep his head more or less in the position for me to pop food in his mouth, but I do not see how I can even extend his neck to look inside to notice glottis and then insert the syringe to put some ibuprofen.

6. I popped 5 peas and 5 corn kernels and about 5-10 broken and soaked pieces of pellets.
How often should I "pop"?
My schedule is inconsistent: some days I come back early, but there are two days when I don't come back till after 4pm. And I am always rushing in the morning.
So, the popping won't be consistent from day to day. Is that ok?

7. Also, I have got not a certain amount of pellet mush - I thought of making some "boo-balls" out of it, but not sure what to use to thicken it (it's really mushy right now). Could I use some bread to make it all stick together?

8. As I was typing, I kept thinking about the ibuprofen thing.
What if instead of sticking the syringe into his mouth, I will put this med inside of a pea or maybe, soak a piece of pellet in it?

Right now he is resting from all this morning trauma of me opening his mouth and inserting food, and then cleaning.

But I am really, really, really, really worried about that bad leg...
Even if the bone grows, if there is nerve damage, he won't be able to use it...

[psychobird]

you can just put the syringe in, a 1ml syringe is too big to go in the glottis
i would get up early (sorry) and feed him at least 20 pieces of corn and peas
and do the same in the evening
you won't know what his leg is like until the bandage comes off, so try not to cross that bridge till you get to it
as for the poo just do the best you can, the most important place to keep clean is his vent so the poo doesn't build up and block him from eliminating

once the pellets are soaked they are only going to be good for a couple of days stored in the fridge, toss after that

[psychobird]

is he eating on his own at all? you may need to bump that up to 30 or more if he is not

[psychobird]

i think it's very important to get that ibuprofen into him, i'm sure he has a lot of swelling under those bandages and must hurt like a son of a
just do it!! it's okay, such a small amount it will be okay i promise!

[astra]

is he eating on his own at all? you may need to bump that up to 30 or more if he is not
yes, he is constantly pecking the seed - I can hear it, buT as soon as try to watch, he stops.

Yes, I will have to get up earlier in the morning to pop.
I am thinking, if I pop about 20pcs of peas/corn and 10 pellets (broken up, of course), that might be enough. What do you think?

[astra]

i think it's very important to get that ibuprofen into him, i'm sure he has a lot of swelling under those bandages and must hurt like a son of a
just do it!! it's okay, such a small amount it will be okay i promise!
ok, I will take your word for it ;).

This is what i will do: I WILL try again looking for the glottis, but if not,
I will just do what I did with popping: put the med drop in his beak/mouth/where his head starts and let him swallow that.

[astra]

is there such a thing as overfeeding him?

What if his crop fills up and I don't know it (I do keep feeling, but it's hard, especially, when he fluffs up doing his Feather FU or something)?

[astra]

Ok,
this is what I have just done:
I filled up 0.06 of ibuprofen in a syringe, opened his beak (with a struggle, of course) and spritzed the med into his "mouth" - it was on the "border" between his head and where his beak starts, sort of "under" his nose.
Nothing spilled, it all went into his mouth, so he must have swallowed it.

As for his poop, what I did right now, I put extra tissue between his bum vent and his legs, maybe, that will help to keep his legs more or less clean from the poop.

His vent does not seem to be clogged.

[psychobird]

yes you can over feed him, thats' why i want you to learn how his crop feels
he should never be so full that it is tight and hard, should feel like a nice big marshmallow in there
and that amount is sounds great, glad he is eating
and congrats on the meds!

[Busysqrl]

Oh Astra! I haven't been on for several days. You poor dear, what you've been through. God bless you honey! You are so caring and sweet to help that baby. And God bless Crittermom, Phsycobird and Nancy for helping you. Those visuals are incredible Nancy and I'm sure very helpful. They would be to me. So glad you were able to find a caring vet. It sounds like he's doing pretty well. Just the fact that he's eating anything on his own I think is wonderful! I know NOTHING about birds. I'm sure praying for you and your baby. You're doing FABULOUS!!!!!

[astra]

I know NOTHING about birds. I'm sure praying for you and your baby. You're doing FABULOUS!!!!!
Thank you, Busy!
i know as much as you do, that's why I feel so nervous.
Yes, please - pray so that I do not do any harm to him and that he heals well and can walk again.

Jodi, I have another question:

how long on average does it usually take for the crop to empty?...
I am still learning how to feel the crop, but I still have a hard time telling if it is full or not. I know that you can feel the food in there, and I kind of feel something, but I don't know whether I am feeling the food or his bones/muscles.
And now, that he is all bandaged, it's hard to tell just by looking.

I will keep feeling the crop, but it would help to know how long it might take for the crop to empty if I give him about 6-1o pellets and 10-15 peas corn kernels per meal?
I dip pellet pieces in water before I give them to him.

[psychobird]

Well it will depend on how much he is eating on his own
The bandage is below the crop
Mbe pull his food tnite in the morning it will be empty
Then as you feed him in the am give him a quick feel here and there
Maybe feed him just a little extra this time so you can feel his full crop well
Otherwise what your feeding sounds good to me, especially if he is eating on his own

[astra]

ok, two more things:

1. as you could see, he is set up so that there are two containers in front of him: one with seed and the other one with water.

as I said before, he often repositions himself (CrM - even when I "tuck" him in), he kind of moves closer and closer to the containers.
My concern is this: what if he moves too close and ends up falling into the water container head first when I am not here?... he will drown that way.

So, will it be ok if I take the water container out when I am not here?... will he do ok without water until I come back?...

on the pigeon site someone said that pigeons don't really drink that much, and that they can get water with food (defrosted peas, corn and if I dip pellets in water).

What do you think?

2. Another thing I observed: since I popped the food in him, he started eating less seed. Before, he kept pecking and pecking all the time, but since I popped him this morning, He has not touched the seed all day.

Can that be an indication that he is full and that the amount of popped food is sufficient?

THANK YOU! :grouphug

[Scooterzmom]

ok, two more things:

1. as you could see, he is set up so that there are two containers in front of him: one with seed and the other one with water.

as I said before, he often repositions himself (CrM - even when I "tuck" him in), he kind of moves closer and closer to the containers.
My concern is this: what if he moves too close and ends up falling into the water container head first when I am not here?... he will drown that way.

So, will it be ok if I take the water container out when I am not here?... will he do ok without water until I come back?...

on the pigeon site someone said that pigeons don't really drink that much, and that they can get water with food (defrosted peas, corn and if I dip pellets in water).

What do you think?

2. Another thing I observed: since I popped the food in him, he started eating less seed. Before, he kept pecking and pecking all the time, but since I popped him this morning, He has not touched the seed all day.

Can that be an indication that he is full and that the amount of popped food is sufficient?

THANK YOU! :grouphug

Wanted to let you know how much I admire you for doing all that you do for this little guy.

Just wondering... is there a way you could wrap the water container in hardware cloth, so he could poke his beak through but be safe from having his whole face submerged in it if he falls forward into it?

[psychobird]

I wouldnt take his water, we need him to drink as much as he wants
Can try sc moms idea or just use a smaller dish
But I think he's to big to drown in that one, mighty just spill it and make a mess
The fact that he was constantly pecking the seeds tells me he wasn't getting enough to eat before and he not completely self feeding
You may want to feed him 3 times a day until your sure what his crop feels like
We don't want the baby to go hungry

[astra]

hardware cloth I don't have and I won't be able to buy such a tiny piece.
And as far as I remember, most h. cloths are too stiff to be wrapped around such a tiny container.
So, I will have to look for smth smaller.

My other question is:
how will I know if he starts feeling unwell?... since he cannot move himself, I won't be able to tell by his level of activity.
So, what will be the signs that he is not feeling well?

[astra]

so for breakfast at 9am he had 10 peas/corn + 10 pellets (broken up);
for lunch about 3-4pm he had another 10 peas/corn + 10 pellets (broken up).

I always dip a pellet piece in water before giving him.

How long will it take for crop to empty with a meal like above?

Given the two meals above, what will be a good dinner/supper?...Same? Or just 20 pcs of peas/corn?

Also, again - tried to feel his crop, but not sure what I am feeling. Feels like his little breastplate bones or something. At one point, I think I felt like something was sort of rolling in there - I guess, that's food?

My other question:
How do I tell if he aspirated?...
He often splashes water, looks like he is not so much drinking, as just dipping his beak and splashing it around.



Do aspirated pigeons click like squirrels? think, I heard some sounds today that I have not heard before from him. Not regular, occasional, but still.
I started getting worried that, maybe, I was doing something wrong during popping, or aspirated him with my wet fingers, or who knows what else I might have done. So, just want to know what to look for if anything.

Also, since I dip pellet pieces in water, my fingers get wet and I touch his beak. I try to dry my fingers on a tissue, but still, often get his beak wet and aren't there nostrils?... so I am worried that he will inhale water.

Also, as I was popping food today, he started ducking his head, as if he didn't want anymore. So, I thought, that maybe, his crop is full and he is not hungry.
BUT
then, he started trying to peck pellet crumbs that were on the towel, in which he was wrapped for feeding. So, I assumed that meant that he was still hungry, so I kept on feeding. Is that a correct assumption?
How do I know when he does not want to be fed?

In addition to the aspiration, what are other signs I need to be on look out for?... In case, he starts feeling unwell?...
I just want to be prepared and catch it early.

[psychobird]

his breathing can would sounds moist and clicky
sometimes birds make like a click or a clunk when they are upset(like when we grab them :)
try not to get water in his nostril dab the excess moisture off before feeding
i want you to go buy a whole chicken i think
when it's on it back like the way you would roast it, you will see the keel bone and the breast meat on each side
there is a little v at the top at the end where head used to be, or where the wishbone is
the crop is above that going towards the head
see what the bones feel like, right there where the wishbone is, thats the clavicle
if you can easily feel those bones he is far from full
if you over feed him it will start coming back up, i think that small amount would empty out in 3-4 hours
i actually think your underfeeding, that's why the crop is being elusive for you
tnite before bed, give him a BIG meal 40 + pieces of peas and corn
no pellets this time, just cause if he is very full it will digest quickly and he wont be uncomfortable long
here's some skel pics

[psychobird]

see the wishbone, can you find that on him?

[psychobird]

birds are the master of disguising illness and even injury
it helps them survive until hopefully they get better or heal
i have had gulls come in with their wing hanging by a string a leg nearly gone and they stand there looking pissed and fight me as hard as they can
then they will still eat a huge meal, tough bastards they are
lethagy, moist clicking, gasping, open mouth breathing are all bad signs

[astra]

ok, so for dinner he had 30 pcs of peas/corn and then he started nipping me and turning his "nose" up, and at one point, he started making this movement that looked like something was stuck inside his neck. Then, he stopped.
Or, maybe, that was another way to try and get away from my evil fingers that were opening his beak.

What I do throughout "popping" is that I gently press/feel where I think his crop is just in case something "stuck" (the guy in the vid did something like that, so that's why I decided to do that). I think, it helps.

Thanks for the drawings.
That's what i thought where the crop is but on a live bird everything is so different.
However, when I feel what I think is his crop, I do not feel bones.
I do feel like there is something "bumpy", maybe peas and corn and pellets, but definitely, not bones. So, maybe, I am feeling the right spot after all.
It's just that bird's bones are so tiny and delicate that it seems to me that it can easily feel like a pea.

He has become much more active - he keeps pushing with his better leg and crawl out of the "tucked" in area. And he is very persistent.
I just feel like asking, just where he thinks he is going.

As I said, he crawls out and ends up in his food dishes. At one time today he kept rustling so I came up to see what's going on and he crawled and was lying in his seed container, pooping into the water container because it ended up right under his bum.
The only thing that limits his crawling is when I put him to face a corner/wall box tightly - this way he has nowhere to crawl ahead of him.
I really want him to be still and let those bones and wing heal.

[astra]

Here are two videos.
Could you please look at him? Does he look healthy to you?...

The first video is right after popping. Does he look ok?... are his eyes bright enough?...
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/th_IMG_0061.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/?action=view&current=IMG_0061.mp4)

The second video is a bit later. I started stroking his little head and looked like he was getting sleepy, dosing off. Then, he heard something, and then, he saw my phone camera.
So, is it ok to stroke him like that?
I started doing it to calm him down after he got so upset with my popping food into him.
Does it look like he is scared when I stroke his head?...
Or is he really getting sleepy, which might mean it is soothing?
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/th_IMG_0062.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/?action=view&current=IMG_0062.mp4)

If there is anything else in the vids that you see that I don't see - please tell me.
Also, his feathers on top of his head are a bit ruffled after the popping - I think, he hates me for opening his beak and forcing food in there.
He even tried to nip me at one point today, when I tried feeling his crop.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

video didnt post............

it looks like this

<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid940.photobucket.co m%2Falbums%2Fad242%2Fastrazk%2FIMG_0061.mp4">


oh ok I see them now

[tomcics]

Just found this thread Astra, hope everything turns out well for your new feathered friend.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I think from his eyes, he looks like he likes it, yes soothing him. If he didnt he would be trying to peck at you, twisting his head away .

[astra]

also, here are two pics:

one is of the gravel that i bought. How do I give it to him?

the other one is that spot on his back, where the car must have run over him.
He's been losing feathers in there and now it's that bare spot.
Will it heal on its own?... is that normal for car injuries?

THANK YOU!

[psychobird]

I can't seem to get the vid on my phone, I will watch in the morning on the puter
If he is relaxing and closing his eyes when you scritch him, he must like it :)
Yeah, sounds like he is not cooperating by staying in his bed, bad boy, not much ya can do
Mbe put him in the corner and put water on one side and food on the other
Fresh little goofballl
You must be feeling the food! Bones are not round! Keep feeling it, you can really squish it around, should feel like a marshmallow and just about the same size just roundish
Sounds like you filled him up nice, he musta been happy and relaxed after having a nice full crop
What day does he go back to the vet?

[astra]

we have to go back for another ABs shot this Friday.
Is there anything I need to ask the vet?

[psychobird]

Yes it will regrow feathers, don't worry bout that
I had a red breasted merganser who lost all the feathers on his back when he got hit by a car, but he had bad road rash too, was a bloody mess
That doesn't look irritated in any way
I would put a teaspoon directly on his seed in a little pile, he can pick what he wants
Normally I give it in separate dish but I don't think he can reach 3 seperate dishes
Glad to know he has one good working leg, even if he is exploring unwantinly

[astra]

Yes it will regrow feathers, don't worry bout that
I had a red breasted merganser who lost all the feathers on his back when he got hit by a car, but he had bad road rash too, was a bloody mess
That doesn't look irritated in any way
I would put a teaspoon directly on his seed in a little pile, he can pick what he wants
Normally I give it in separate dish but I don't think he can reach 3 seperate dishes
Glad to know he has one good working leg, even if he is exploring unwantinly
glad to know that he will regrow those feathers.

As for putting it on the seed, well, since I started popping, he stopped eating the seed altogether. He does not touch it at all. Just falls into the dish while trying to crawl around.
How else can I give it to him other than putting it on the seed?

[psychobird]

I would ask vet to show you the crop and how to look in his mouth
You should keep checking to make sure he doesn't have trichomoniasis/canker
Be nice if he would do a fecal, but that might be pushing it, you'll have to feel what kind of vibe you get from the vet
I wonder if he is going to rebandage him, you may want to let him know he is a juvie, so there may be some growth going on still

[psychobird]

He doesn't need it if all he is eating is the pellets and veggies
I would sprinkle it on his seed anyways and leave it available to him at all times, otherwise he will never wean

[astra]

I would ask vet to show you the crop and how to look in his mouth
You should keep checking to make sure he doesn't have trichomoniasis/canker
Be nice if he would do a fecal, but that might be pushing it, you'll have to feel what kind of vibe you get from the vet
I wonder if he is going to rebandage him, you may want to let him know he is a juvie, so there may be some growth going on still

So, that "cheesy" stuff is the canker? will try and look for it.
How do they get canker?...

i could ask for fecal, but I am not sure I can afford it right now.
In fact, I cannot really afford a vet at all (that's one of the reasons why i do not have any pets and do not wish for them, either ) and that's why I was really hoping to find someone here who could take him ... so I will have to figure something out... what can a fecal show?....

I was thinking about asking to rebandage him because of the poop.
BUt that will mean another charge, so I was thinking of, maybe, waiting for another week, as the vet said. . But then, if it is needed, I will do it.

[psychobird]

Fecal to check for parasites
Canker is a prozea he would have got it From hIs parents
Very very common in pigeons to have it, can grow out of control when they are Ill, stessed, or injured
Can really bring them down fast

[psychobird]

I thought you were keeping him if he couldn't be released?

[astra]

I thought you were keeping him if he couldn't be released?
yes, now I will keep him, but initially, I tried to find someone who could take him and give him a forever home because of my financial situation.
But I could not find anyone.
So, yes, now I am keeping him. There is no other option: there seems to be no one in Montreal who will take him as a NR and I am not putting him to sleep if he can have a good NR life. So, what's left - I will keep him.
Just need to figure out how I will pay for the vet.

It's just I am trying to see if I could prioritize vet visits: right now, AB shots and his bandages are the priority. It will be 6 shots altogether + initial visit + other charges here and there... so that will add up. If I do fecal now, it will add up to about a $1000. 00 and I cannot pay off that much in one month.
So, I was thinking to finish Abs and bandages first, and then, worry about other things.

[astra]

Fecal to check for parasites
Canker is a prozea he would have got it From hIs parents
Very very common in pigeons to have it, can grow out of control when they are Ill, stessed, or injured
Can really bring them down fast
does canker manifest itself in other symptoms?...
wouldn't that cheesy stuff be oozing out of his mouth, at least sometimes?

[psychobird]

No it would be in the back of his throat and down further where you can't see it, it's thick like hard cheddar , sometimes they get a white slime in the corners of their mouths, but u would see the white stuff in the back first
Okay, well u def need help with bandaging from him
But, I would tell him you can't afford that many more visits
Ask him if you can give him Baytril orally instead or whatever abs he recommends
I like using Baytril if injuries involving bone
Mbe vet didn't feel confident in your dosing abilities at the time of the visit, but you have it down now

[psychobird]

Here's a pic of a pretty severe case of canker, you wanna catch it before it gets this bad
http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/canker.jpg

[tomcics]

Astra, so very lovely, your new friend, I think for sure he enjoys the affectionate head stroking. Glad Psychobird is providing so many good suggestions.

[astra]

thank you, Tomcics, I hope I am not doing more harm... because I don't know what i am doing... if not for psychobird...

Jodi, I looked into his throat this morning, he would not let me open the mouth really really wide to look dip into it, but whatever I got to see (kind of looked like that drawing Nancy posted with the glottis), I don't think I saw anything cheesy.
I think, if it was there, I would see it clearly, right?

[psychobird]

yes, just give a quick look before you feed

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

That cheesy mouth you guys are talking about........
is that like a yeast infection? If you can not open the birdo's mouth could you smell anything ??
When I had birds, especially ones that had problems, I would always clip their wings. It was like they knew they could not fly and became more dependent on me , which is what I needed at the time, again every bird is like every mammal, all have different personalities , clipping his wings would help with handling him also, they will not get in the way and cause more damage and hurt. Just a thought.
Watching and learning ...

[Busysqrl]

Hi Astra, just checking in to offer support. You are doing such a wonderful job.

We rescued a bandtailed pigeon from our backyard last Fall. It was just sitting in the ground feeder at dusk when it should have been gone. It came back the next day and looked like it was trying to eat, but couldn't seem to get it down and was very lethargic. So I caught it and took it to our local bird society rehab facility. They confirmed that he had this 'canker' that is being referred to. They kept him and treated him and he seemed to be doing better and then died. It is very serious stuff and like has been mentioned, they said very common and very contagious to other birds. Hopefully he doesn't have that.

You are doing a great job honey! Many prayers still going up for you and your little featherball :grouphug :grouphug

[psychobird]

piji's are different than keets,tiels and parrots
i wouldn't clip him
canker is different that yeast, yeast poses another issue, it's possible he could get that too from the anti biotics, but most don't

[astra]

ok,

today was a bit different.

I got concerned because he seemed less active than usual.

After I fed him his lunch, he started looking a bit sleepy.
He would try to crawl out of his spot pushing with the better leg, then, he would start dozing off and being all sleepy. Then, he would perk up for a few minutes, but would get all sleepy afterwards again. I have a few videos but there is something wrong with the stupid photo bucket.

He literally started falling asleep and had these sleepy eyes.
So, he kept perking up for a few minutes and then, falling asleep again.

He was also making this motion with his head/neck as if something in the neck was bothering him. He wasn't making it a lot, just sometimes.
He did the same thing when I was feeding him.
So, I thought that, maybe, something didn't go all the way down or something.
So, one minute he'd be active, the next minute he'd be sleepy.
I have never seen him so sleepy and drowsy looking.

So, I called the vet and rushed for an emergency appointment.
Of course, when I got to the vet, he looked fine.
I explained to the vet my concerns, but he just shrugged his shoulders and said that looks like the pigeon is healing well and his legs feel stronger, so I don't need to worry about anything.
He did show me the crop. That's what I kind of thought.

The crop is still full, so I am thinking not to feed him anything in the evening.
Maybe, I gave him too much and that's why he was so sleepy and less active.

In am I gave him broken up 10 pellets and about 20 pcs of peas and corn. Actually, since pellets are larger, when I break them up their pile is the same size (and even a bit bigger) than the 20-30 pcs of veggies.

During lunch, 4 hours later, I gave him about the same amount of food.

So, I am thinking he ate too much today.

So, I am going to not feed him anything tonight and see how he does tomorrow.

Again, I looked into his mouth and didn't see anything cheesy.

I asked the vet about canker but I don't think the vet knows much, because the way he replied didn't sound like he knew much about it.
So, I will try to keep checking for it myself.

I will try to upload some videos if it let me.

[astra]

this one is very short, so you might have to play it several times, but in the first split second he is in the middle of making that motion with his neck.

I tried recording it, but as soon s he sees my phone camera, he pays attention to it and does not do much except watching ithttp://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/th_IMG_0063.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/?action=view&current=IMG_0063.mp4)

Here on 0.17-20 seconds he is sort of making that neck movement.
I am not sure if it's something that's bothering him in the neck or in his throat, or if he is just trying to get out.http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/th_IMG_0064.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/?action=view&current=IMG_0064.mp4)

He looks a bit tired and sleepy to me here. His eyes are not fully open and he looks like he is not feeling too well.
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/th_IMG_0065.jpg (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad242/astrazk/?action=view&current=IMG_0065.mp4)

Is this something to worry about?
Is it normal for pigeons to nap during the day?

I stroked him again and he literally closed his eyes and dozed off for a few minutes and kept doing that.

After we came back from the vet, I put him in a "tucked in" spot and he napped some more.

[psychobird]

yup prob just a little too full
so now you know what the crop feels like
i wouldn't feed him more than 3 times a day at his age

morning, midday between 2-4 and right before bed 10-11

if he still has food in his crop midday i would go to 2 times a day

you want to encourage self feeding, when his crop is empty, peck at the seeds with your fingers like a bird would, dip the tip of his beak in water
i see the little movements your talking about, just keep an eye on his throat

[astra]

yup prob just a little too full
so now you know what the crop feels like
i wouldn't feed him more than 3 times a day at his age

morning, midday between 2-4 and right before bed 10-11

if he still has food in his crop midday i would go to 2 times a day

you want to encourage self feeding, when his crop is empty, peck at the seeds with your fingers like a bird would, dip the tip of his beak in water
i see the little movements your talking about, just keep an eye on his throat
will "peck" the seeds ;-).
The thing is, before I started feeding him, he was trying to peck at the seeds, but I don't think he really knows what he is doing now.
The reason I doubt he is good at self-feeding is that the other day, when I was feeding him, there were a few pellet crumbs left on the blanket, in which he was wrapped. He tried to pick those crumbs, pecked them, but could not pick them up. As if he was missing them, or wasn't opening his beak wide enough to pick them.

Ok, will start teaching him to peck.

As for water - he dips his beak in it. I hope he drinks it, too.
Sometimes, I am worried that he dips his beak too deep and will get water in his nose. It's as if he were playing - dipping his beak and splashing water.
So, he seems to know what to do with water.
Just need to work on seeds.

His crop is still full, so I will not feed him tonight.

I was thinking, that maybe, because he is not active right now, not moving etc, his crop gets emptied slower?... since he is expending less energy...

I just hope that's nothing serious with the throat or neck, I hope, I didn't hurt him accidentally while "popping", but I try to touch him very gently, which makes it often difficult because he "gets out" of my fingers.

[psychobird]

nah, i highly doubt you hurt him
let him chill tnite and start over in the morn
he's young it takes them a while to figure out how to eat the seeds
you will know when he figures it out, he will really eat a lot :)

[tomcics]

Astra, he really has such beautiful eyes, really a deluxe kind of sweetie. I seen the motion you referred to but I sometimes see similar head movements by the doves from time to time, hope he is OK. In one video, it looked to me like he was just trying to get you to stroke his head again, he looks so cozy and content being there with you. Your bird friends are just like your squirrel friends, always the best looking ones.

[astra]

Astra, he really has such beautiful eyes, really a deluxe kind of sweetie. I seen the motion you referred to but I sometimes see similar head movements by the doves from time to time, hope he is OK. In one video, it looked to me like he was just trying to get you to stroke his head again, he looks so cozy and content being there with you. Your bird friends are just like your squirrel friends, always the best looking ones.
thank you, Tomcics - s/he is a beautiful pigeon and very sweet, too.
And I enjoy stroking his little head, probably, more than he enjoys having his head stroked :).

[astra]

So, everything is pretty much the same. I did go a bit lighter on food today.
But it's hard to feel his crop because he is bandaged up there, so his crop area is "puffier" as a result. And it feels squishy.

He tried to peck at seeds, and I "pecked", too, with my finger.
He dips his beak in seed and then, his entire beak/face is covered in seeds because before that he would dip his beak in water.

The only thing is that he is still a bit less active.
he mostly sits and naps.
I am trying to make a positive guess: could it be because he is less afraid of me, so he does not feel like he has to "go" anywhere?...

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I am trying to make a positive guess: could it be because he is less afraid of me, so he does not feel like he has to "go" anywhere?...


sounds like a good guess to me:D :thumbsup

[astra]

I am trying to make a positive guess: could it be because he is less afraid of me, so he does not feel like he has to "go" anywhere?...


sounds like a good guess to me:D :thumbsup
Gosh, I really hope, but I am getting more and more worried.

He just sits there by the dishes, occasionally pecking, but mostly, sort of napping. He has not tried to crawl out of his spot for the last 3-4 hours now.


So, my question is:

is this activity pattern - of a few minute-perkingness and then sleepiness/quietness - something to be concerned with?

Is he getting sick and i don't know it?

Or, did he stop crawling around because he is not afraid of me anymore and does not feel like he has to run away from me?

I did check his mouth (against his wish) and I didn't see anything "cheesy" inside.
I listen to his breath and he does not sound like he is clicking.
Although, sometimes, I hear some kind of sounds - for instance, when I force feeding him, sometimes he sounds like he is snorting or something.
But most of the time his breath is soundless.
No open mouth breathing.
No gasping
No labored breathing of any kind.

He tries to peck at seeds and dips his beak in water.

But I am just worried about him getting so quiet.
I force-fed him Sun and MOn and then on Tuesday he got "quieter", so again, I am trying to find a "positive" explanation that, maybe, by Tuesday he realized that I wasn't going to eat him and actually feeding him, so he just relaxed more?

Do pigeons nap during the day?

Gosh, I am getting more and more worried.:shakehead

[astra]

does he need to be on a heating pad? he is not a baby, but I don't know what else to think.

Although, when I first found him, I put him right next to my warm radiator (in the box, of course), and after a while he must have gotten too warm, because he kept trying to move away from it.

When I am here, I position him in a spot where he can see me - just a few feet away from me, low and I am sitting on the floor on the same level. And as I am keeping an eye on him, he is just sitting there, dozing off, half asleep.

[tomcics]

Good luck there Astra, hope this is just normal healing behavior. It is always encouraging if they make it through first couple days. Doves around here seem to nap or rest most of the time. Only seem to fly and move around when their hungry.

[psychobird]

Hey astra, try not to worry, your doing everything u can for him right now
Your still goin to vet tmrw right?
Prob time to rewrap and get a look at things under those bandages
It might be time to stop the ibuprofen
Can be rough on the tummy

[Nancy in New York]

Oh astra....I know your heart, and I know you are worried. There is not one member here that would do a better job than you....You are so concerned and asking all the right questions. God, I just love your heart....:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
I hope so much that everything turns out well....you are an amazing girl...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[astra]

Hey astra, try not to worry, your doing everything u can for him right now
Your still goin to vet tmrw right?
Prob time to rewrap and get a look at things under those bandages
It might be time to stop the ibuprofen
Can be rough on the tummy
no, the vet appointment is on Friday at 2pm.

I will ask for rewrapping.

[astra]

Oh astra....I know your heart, and I know you are worried. There is not one member here that would do a better job than you....You are so concerned and asking all the right questions. God, I just love your heart....:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
I hope so much that everything turns out well....you are an amazing girl...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
oh, Nancy, thank you for all your kind words...:Love_Icon :grouphug :Love_Icon
I am already attached to this little one and it's a torture to sit and think that he might not be well and I don't know it and wasting time, letting the problem get worse.
I just hope it is nothing serious.

Maybe, it is the weather?... it's been cold and rainy/snowy, so, maybe that affects his activity level, too, as it does in some other animals?...

[astra]

Good luck there Astra, hope this is just normal healing behavior. It is always encouraging if they make it through first couple days. Doves around here seem to nap or rest most of the time. Only seem to fly and move around when their hungry.
thanks, Tomcics.
I remember that my deck pigeons would sit on the roof for quite long, but... I just want to know for sure that he is ok

[Nancy in New York]

oh, Nancy, thank you for all your kind words...:Love_Icon :grouphug :Love_Icon
I am already attached to this little one and it's a torture to sit and think that he might not be well and I don't know it and wasting time, letting the problem get worse.
I just hope it is nothing serious.

Maybe, it is the weather?... it's been cold and rainy/snowy, so, maybe that affects his activity level, too, as it does in some other animals?...

Well if you think about it too, there's really not much for him to do being wrapped up like a little sausage....:)
I think that if psychobird suspected a problem, she would make the suggestion to get him to the vets....BUT I do know that it's difficult not to worry about a little creature....I know.:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Being calmer is a good thing, he is no longer panicking it seems.
Meds , full tummy and a little more comfortable will help him sleep .
Sleep is the ultimate healer , so let him sleep.
Continue your patience and caring, that's a good healer too.

[astra]

Well if you think about it too, there's really not much for him to do being wrapped up like a little sausage....:) :)

I think that if psychobird suspected a problem, she would make the suggestion to get him to the vets... .that's what i am holding onto right now

BUT I do know that it's difficult not to worry about a little creature....I know.:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :grouphug

[astra]

Being calmer is a good thing, he is no longer panicking it seems.
Meds , full tummy and a little more comfortable will help him sleep .
Sleep is the ultimate healer , so let him sleep.
Continue your patience and caring, that's a good healer too.
thanks, SSM!:grouphug

that's true - he is not panicking anymore... maybe, it is him being calmer.. Gosh, really hope so

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Don't forget to get some sleep for yourself too..
You are no good to anybody with out it :D
not even yourself

[psychobird]

You r doing a good job :)
Full tummies make Pijis very happy n cozy
I'm a day off! Lol, I'm turning into a birdbrain!
You still feeding 3 times a day or 2?

[astra]

You r doing a good job :)
Full tummies make Pijis very happy n cozyI hope that's the reason

I'm a day off! Lol, I'm turning into a birdbrain!
You still feeding 3 times a day or 2? :)
2 times a day + he is trying to peck at the seed

meals are: 10 pellets broken up, each pellet breaks up into 2-3 pieces the size of a pea or smaller + 10-20 peas and corn

[psychobird]

Okay, just keep on keepin on
Hopefully he has just surrendered to your care
And is starting to cooperate
Don't forget to ask vet if you can dose him orally instead of the abs shots
Btw, don't think I have ever had a birds on abs longer than 3 weeks
All wounds should be healed up and closed and closed by then
Never have had to keep a wing or leg wrapped longer than 2 weeks either
Birds bOnes heal very rapidly
I want to know what he is using for an antibiotic too (the injection)
Maybe if you can skip those future visits you can afford a fecal instead

[astra]

Okay, just keep on keepin on
Hopefully he has just surrendered to your care
And is starting to cooperate
Don't forget to ask vet if you can dose him orally instead of the abs shots
Btw, don't think I have ever had a birds on abs longer than 3 weeks
All wounds should be healed up and closed and closed by then
Never have had to keep a wing or leg wrapped longer than 2 weeks either
Birds bOnes heal very rapidly
I want to know what he is using for an antibiotic too (the injection)
Maybe if you can skip those future visits you can afford a fecal instead
yes, I will ask about oral Abs

yes, the bandages will have to come off in two weeks (well, actually, in a week since this week has almost passed). So, not this coming Fri, but the Fri next week the bandages will come off.

Will ask about the injection

[tomcics]

Thinking of your Pigeon friend, hope all is well.

[psychobird]

Me too, and hoping vet finds good healing under those bandages tmrw

[redwuff]

Sending lots of healing vibes for Piji and Astra.

Trysh

[Scooterzmom]

Hoping all goes well for Piji tomorrow and you get all good news :Love_Icon

[psychobird]

hows piji astra?

[astra]

Busysqurl, Reduff, Scootersmom, Tomcics, Nancy, Jodi and everyone who is lurking - thank you for your concern and good thoughts.

Just came back from the vet.

The vet said that injection ABs are more potent than the oral, and it is a sure way to ensure he gets it all and nothing gets accidentally spilled if I tried to administer it orally.
It is doxycycline. The vet says that it covers not only possible infection from injuries, but also takes care of possible ornithosis, which is zoonotic. He said he had one woman with parrots (he treats parrots in addition to cats and dogs), who rescued a wild bird, brought it home and everyone - she and both of her parrots - ended up with ornithosis stuff.

He looked him over and said he looked well.
He decided not to change the bandages so as not to put him under anaesthesia. But the bandages are coming off next week anyway.

I asked about the fecal - he said we could do it later. He said it is not very common for birds to have parasites like other animals do.
He says that ABs injections are more important, at least for right now.

I saw two tiny specks of blood on paper towel that i put under the pigeon (they weren't there this morning, I saw them when I came back from school and took him to go to the vet).
The vet looked him over and didn't find any possible source of those specks.
He thinks that the pigeon might have just scratched himself accidentally while trying to use his better leg.
That might be the source, indeed, because the specks are right under his better leg.

Overall, the pigeon is doing ok, from what I can tell, at least for today.
I feed him (he is trying to peck at the seed right now), sometimes he tries to peck at the pellet crumbs that fall on the blankie in which he is wrapped, but he does not seem to know how to swallow them: he picks a crumb with his beak, but then, loses it, does not get it into his mouth.

Yesterday, I washed poop off his legs and some feathers, and since he was wet, I put him on a heating pad wrapped up in a blankie (I was reading different things on the pigeon site and remember reading something about wet pigeons getting pneumonia, That they need to be warm and dried up well). So, he sat on a heating pad for a couple of hours till he was all dry and warm.

As for his activity level - same pattern: he sit really, really quiet, then would perk up briefly, then sits quietly. And I tried to watch him during his quiet moments: he is not lethargic or anything, he just sits there quietly...
So, I don't know what to think...
maybe, he did stop panicking, stopped being afraid, relaxed a bit and just "accepted" his situation for now.

Although, when I take him out to feed - he starts wriggling and wiggling and kicking with his better leg, and tries to get out of the blankie.

So, that's the update for today.

Every morning and every time I come back, I am a little bit afraid to look into the box - afraid to lose him. So, taking one day at a time.
So far, he's made it through one week.

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

:grouphug :Love_Icon

[psychobird]

okay, only thing i disagree with is parasites, wild piji's are very prone to them, as are crows, bluejays, robins, gulls and many others
but especially crows, gulls and piji's
the struggle when you take him out is normal
try not to worry so much, i don't think you are going to lose him at this point
it's just a matter of healing and keeping him fed

[psychobird]

i don't even bother getting fecals done on them anymore, i just automatically deworm

[astra]

i don't even bother getting fecals done on them anymore, i just automatically deworm
I think I have capstar somewhere. Can I use capstar to deworm pigeons or do they have their own dewormer?

Will it be better to wait with deworming so as not to overtax his system with ABs and deworming?...

don't even remember right now - does capstar help with deworming?....

[astra]

okay, only thing i disagree with is parasites, wild piji's are very prone to them, as are crows, bluejays, robins, gulls and many others
but especially crows, gulls and piji's
the struggle when you take him out is normal
try not to worry so much, i don't think you are going to lose him at this point
it's just a matter of healing and keeping him fed
ok, if that's the only thing you disagree with, then, I feel better already :)

[tomcics]

:goodpost and excellent update Astra, so glad Psychobird is on board to review what vet says too. You have done a super great job there Astra.

[psychobird]

not sure about the capstar
might wait to deworm
i use this for them
http://www.thebirdcottage.com/s-pigeonbantam.asp

[Scooterzmom]

So glad to hear that piji iis slowly pulling ahead. He's being spoiled, in a way, and definitely loved and I'm sure he's feeling that - which may contribute to his feeling calmer now. Peace and quiet is good, he needs that for a good recovery and you're doing an awesome job. :Love_Icon

[astra]

thanks, Nancy, Tom and ScooterzMom,

I hope, everything is as ok as you think it is.

Jodi,

I was wondering what the nutritional requirements for pigeons are.
Right now I have those pellets in addition to the veggies.
But I just thought that if I didn't have pellets, wouldn't feeding just peas and corn be nutritionally insufficient?

Also,
Interesting: now when I start feeding him and put my fingers on his beak to open it - he opens it himself! So cute!
And then, towards the end of the feeding session he starts resisting me opening his beak, and even starts wriggling his head, like toddlers when they don't want to eat anymore and start dodging a spoon.
Should I stop feeding when he starts doing that?...
or should I finish the meal for the day?
Some meals i finished it and he was fine.
But tonight he was really dodging my fingers with food, so I stopped. I guess, he was full.

Now I am thinking of how I will be handling him and force feeding when the bandages go off next week:eek: :eek: He is feisty as it is when I have to pick him up to feed, but when he is completely free to wing fu and kick?

[psychobird]

If you didn't have the pellets you would need to feed him seeds or parrot hand feeding formula
Sounds like your turning into his mama in his eyes:)
The acting full incantation really say without feeling his crop
There is a way to make a seed shaker
I'll try to explain it with pics tmrw
As far as being a wiggle monster you just wrap him up in the towel nice n tight with his little head out

[psychobird]

If you didn't have the pellets you would need to feed him seeds or parrot hand feeding formula
Sounds like your turning into his mama in his eyes:)
The acting full i can't really say without feeling his crop
There is a way to make a seed shaker
I'll try to explain it with pics tmrw
As far as being a wiggle monster you just wrap him up in the towel nice n tight with his little head out
*** I CAN'T instead of incantation, lol
Stupid spell check

[astra]

*** I CAN'T instead of incantation, lol
Stupid spell check
:rotfl i know, the auto spell check

[tomcics]

How is your new friend doing this weekend?

[astra]

How is your new friend doing this weekend?
thanks for checking in, Tomcics!

He is ok.

Today is the first day when he squeaked - I put him in a very tight spot, burritoed, so that he could not move. I am sure, it is utterly boring and I would go crazy, too, if I had to sit/lie all day. So, he started pushing with his better leg out of there.

I went to pick him up to re-install him and he squeaked very loudly.
Now, he is back in that tight spot. He looks sleepy, but I think, it's because there is nothing else to do when you cannot move, and not because he is not feeling well.
When I take him out to feed, he gets all restless and feisty, pushing and kicking with his back leg.

I am dreading this Friday - the bandages will go off and I cannot even imagine how I will be picking him up to feed :eek:

[tomcics]

I imagine 'squeaking' is a good thing, he is speaking up for himself. Yes, that sounds very boring 'sitting still in tight place', hope things can keep improving for him, I look forward to reading about his progress.

[astra]

ok, now I am worried again.

I don't like the way his leg looks.
Does it look swollen to you?... and i think, there is a tiny spot that bleeds - that must be where the blood specks came from.

If they give me an appointment tomorrow, I won't be able to take anything earlier than 6pm (if they are even open that late).
I have classes and I won't be able to excuse myself b/c these are my finals weeks.

What can I do if anything to lessen his discomfort if his leg is swollen?

I think, the bleeding spot appeared as he tried to use his leg- the bandage is hard like a cast and as he is trying to move his leg, he is rubbing it against the cast - created this friction spot that bleeds.

But I am not sure - does the leg look swollen to you?... it looks swollen to me.

[Scooterzmom]

Poor little guy. I too think it does look swollen :( I wonder if maybe the bandage might be too tight and with being immobile it could have aused the swelling.

I wonder if it would help maybe to massage his leg VERY delicately, :thinking just to help the circulation get going, ya know? Not having seen the poor guy - and I'm no bird expert, for sure - but I'm just thinking that for humans, being immobile and bandaged tight can cause swelling for lack of circulation and a wound can get bad that way... but for a birdie, sheesh that's a tough one. :dono If he can't peck his own leg I might try putting some polysporin on the bleeding art at least until getting to the vet tomorrow... so it doesnèt get infected or worse.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I agree it looks like the bandage is too tight, can you rerap it ? septic stick or powder will help stop the bleeding.

[psychobird]

Yup, looks too tight, damn I knew he should have rewrapped
If his foot is cold it needs to come off tnite
Is his foot cold?

[astra]

Yup, looks too tight, damn I knew he should have rewrapped
If his foot is cold it needs to come off tnite
Is his foot cold?
no, it isn't cold, it's warm

should I massage it?

if necessary, I can try to cut through the bandage, but if it is warm, maybe, I'd better have vet do it tomorrow
I only noticed it now - it was fine before

[psychobird]

HOw many has has it been since it was wrapped?
Can u use little scissors and just put a slit in it so it's not so tight down at the bottom?

[astra]

HOw many has has it been since it was wrapped?
Can u use little scissors and just put a slit in it so it's not so tight down at the bottom?
it was wrapped last week on Friday afternoon

yes, I can try and cut a slit

[psychobird]

Okay, try that and see if that helps, poor guy

[Scooterzmom]

I definitely would loosen it. Loosening it will surely bring him some welcome relief.

I remember when I had badly injureded a foot and they had wrapped the bandage too tight. It swelle and swelled and the pain became so unbearable I could have screamed. Showed up at the hospital in tears, begging them to take that thing off.

[astra]

i am trying to cut it , but it is so tight that I am afraid to cut him along the way, and he is kicking like crazy.
I covered his face with a blankie and sprayed with Rescue remedy, but still.

should I give him some ibuprofen to lessen the pain at least?

[psychobird]

Here's a link to making a splint with tape
I use this wrap a lot, if your feeling brave
And have help with holding you could remove that wrap
And rewrap
http://www.lbah.com/avian/fxtibia.htm
One thing I do is use paper tape first, when it comes time to remove
I just wet it down and it comes off easier
Then I use the heavier tape
It has been 9 days, I usually remove wraps at 10
Then I keep then confined for at least a few more days to week
He did have multiple fractures in that leg though, so it might need to be rewrapped

[psychobird]

Yea to the ibu
Try just snipping a couple layers at a time
Wrap him good, hold him against your body on ur lap
Kinda use ur belly to hold him down

[astra]

i won't be able to rewrap it :( - I have no one to hold him for me, it's just me and the pigeon. And the way he is kicking and stressing out - I won't be able to rewrap.

I did cut some more, at least around the bleeding spot.

Of course, it had to swell today, on Sunday, and not just on Sunday, but right now - late at night.
It could not have swollen on Sat when I had the time to go to the vet.

Now, I have my finals weeks and it had to swell during my finals weeks.
I just hope they can see me tomorrow.

Should I give the ibuprofen?

[psychobird]

Yes, might even feel good for him to ice it a bit
Use frozen peas, for no more than 20 minutes once an hOur
Your doing so good, I know it's stressful and scary
Breath...
Take your time
It will be okay

[psychobird]

If vet can't see tmrw, you should take that wrap off

[astra]

If vet can't see tmrw, you should take that wrap off
yes, that's what I thought - if they can't see me, I will have to take it off. I hope they can see me.

Just gave him ibuprofen and massaged legs a bit and stroked his little head, so he calmed down and ready to sleep. Maybe, Rescue Remedy started working, too.

Ok, just as I typed that he calmed down, he is trying to get out of his spot again, pushing with that leg... maybe, ibuprofen started working and he feels he can move again...

ok, will post tomorrow

[psychobird]

wondering whats goin on with him today?

[astra]

wondering whats goin on with him today?
just came back from the vet (15 minutes ago).

He took the bandage off the swollen leg. He said that leg healed, so he didn't re-wrap it. However, he did leave the other leg (the worse leg) and the wing bandage. Those will go off on Friday.
So, right now the pigeon is quietly resting

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

You are doing great!!!:thumbsup
At least from where I am sitting :D

[psychobird]

awesome, hes gonna really wiggle around now
*gentlemen start your engines!

[tomcics]

Friday/Saturday should be most interesting days :alright.gif

[astra]

Thanks, SSM and Tomcics - yes, Fri/Sat will be "most interesting" all right.:thinking :)

Jodi, he is SUPER quiet since we came back from the vet. He didn't even want to eat a lot.
I assume that now, that the tight bandage is off and he must feel much more comfortable, he is just resting. If the bandage was tightening up leading up to yesterday, he must have been very uncomfortable. And if that's how he felt, then, now, that the bandage is off, he must feel very relieved and that's why he is so super quiet.
He is not lethargic or anything. Just super quiet (or is it calm-before-the Fri/Sat storm?)

[psychobird]

Must feel better, his leg still gonna be achy n stiff for a while
He will be so happy to get the bandages off on fri even if things didn't heal perfect
I'm excited for him

[redwuff]

Just got caught up on your thread Astra. You are amazing, Woman. What you have been through with Piji....:bowdown

Keep hanging in there. We are behind you.

[astra]

Just got caught up on your thread Astra. You are amazing, Woman. What you have been through with Piji....:bowdown

Keep hanging in there. We are behind you.
thank you, Trysh...:thankyou :grouphug

[astra]

ok, another concern.


Jodi, could you please look at these pics.

this is the spot where the bleeding originally started.
When the bandages went off, it was just a tiny blood spot (like when you'd scratch yourself).

Now, it looks like there is an actual hole in it. Looks like skin ripped a bit where the bleeding spot was.
My guess is that when it was swollen the skin got tight and just popped.
It's not bleeding or inflamed or any of that.
It's dry, "healthy" and looks like healing.
But I am concerned - does it need to be stitched?... or am I overreacting?
Will it just heal on its own and close up on its own?...

If there is a way to avoid going to the vet today, that would be great, b/c I have one term paper due tomorrow and I am barely half the way through, sat all night yesterday. The vet trip takes at least 2 hours, which is a lot for me when I have a huge paper to write.
so, if there is anything i could do myself, I'd rather do it myself till Friday.

But if he has to go to the vet, I will go, just need to know.

[psychobird]

no, doesn't need a stitch, looks like there could be infection under there
you may want to try to soak it, 1/2 hour or so and soften it up a bit
wounds like that i flush with dilute chlorhexadine twice a day (you can get it at walgreens here in the states, not sure up there)
i use a squeeze bottle and really squirt it in there good
you could get some bactracin, or even good ole lube and keep it lightly bandaged to soften it up
then when you go to the vet on friday and can debride it a bit
don't want to usually close up those wounds, want it to heal from the inside out
is he using it?

[astra]

no, doesn't need a stitch, looks like there could be infection under there
you may want to try to soak it, 1/2 hour or so and soften it up a bit
wounds like that i flush with dilute chlorhexadine twice a day (you can get it at walgreens here in the states, not sure up there)
i use a squeeze bottle and really squirt it in there good
you could get some bactracin, or even good ole lube and keep it lightly bandaged to soften it up
then when you go to the vet on friday and can debride it a bit
don't want to usually close up those wounds, want it to heal from the inside out
is he using it?

oh, thanks for replying so fast, Jodi!

I will ask for that stuff at our pharmacy. Hopefully, they will have it.
If they don't, will just rubbing alcohol do for now, till Friday? It will disinfect it at least.
I, too, thought of bandaging it lightly.
Sorry, do you mean oil by "ole lube" ? :)

It does not really look like there is an infection. Don't infections usually result in puss, inflamation etc?... this one is really dry and doesn't look like there is anything inside of it.:thinking

He is kicking with it, and he tried to crawl out of blankies again, but now i am keeping him in blankies even more b/c the bandage is off and I don't want him to overuse his leg.

I think that he tried to use it too much right after the bandage went off and that's why that hole popped like that

[psychobird]

nope, i mean good ole lube, the kind you find next to the condoms:D

looks to me like there might be puss under that scab, it's swollen

alchohol is really really drying and painful to use
if you cant get the chlorhexidine, maybe dilute some peroxide 1/2 n 1/2 with water and just dab it
peroxide is drying too

[astra]

nope, i mean good ole lube, the kind you find next to the condoms:D

looks to me like there might be puss under that scab, it's swollen

alchohol is really really drying and painful to use
if you cant get the chlorhexidine, maybe dilute some peroxide 1/2 n 1/2 with water and just dab it
peroxide is drying too
ok, this is what I am going to do:

1. I will soak his leg for about 1/2 hour
2. Apply chlorhexidine or diluted peroxide
3. then, should I bandage it lightly or let it air?

I thought that the puffiness was from the previous swelling:thinking
Will he be ok till Friday if i keep flushing it?

Should I flush it every day twice a day or today only?

[psychobird]

soak once a day in soapy water, flush twice a day
let air dry
use lube, or antibiotic ointment then keep bandaged lightly
goin out now, will check back later tnite

[psychobird]

he will be okay, he is already on abs

[psychobird]

could be swelling from before, but lets treat it as a wound for now

[astra]

could be swelling from before, but lets treat it as a wound for now
sure.
I am at school right now, will stop by the pharmacy on the way back and follow your instructions:thankyou :grouphug
Please bear with me if I don't report soon enough - I have this paper due tomorrow and I am only half the way through:shakehead

[tomcics]

Good luck Astra with your friend's wound and that term paper, so much stress from school sometimes. I remember it took years (after college years) to stop dreaming about overdue assigmments, test, papers, etc. In that respect, a pigeon's life is much easier.