Sibling Bullying problem.

[justplainnutz]

Hi guys!
I've got a little problem that I'd like some advice on. I've raised Daisy & MoMo from bottle-feeding days. And now they're about 1 year old. When they were young, Daisy was the leader and MoMo was the timid one, always following his sister around or snuggling up to me for safety. And until today, he's always been the more affectionate one.

But the last couple of months, he's been bullying his sister and hogging the food. Even after he's had his fill, he chases her away from the food or darts at her when she sticks her head out of the box during feeding. Sometimes they eat side-by-side no problem during their evening salad. But he keeps her away from the bowls where I keep their blocks, and she's lost weight while he's gotten fatter. They still sleep together and groom each other and if I separate them, they both seem eager to get back to each other and happy to reunite. But he just bullies her, especially when she comes near me or the food. I don't know whether he's being possessive or protective of her or of me or what. Yesterday, while working on their new cage, I let her in it to play while I worked and they were apart most of the day. She seemed fine on her own, but he was antsy. They both seemed happy to reunite in their old cage at the end of the day.

Today, when I put my hand in the cage he licked it the way he always does, until she came near and I petted her. Then he chased her off, and charged/grabbed my hand several times (never bit me but made a lot of threatening gestures) and started chattering his teeth, flailing his tail, and making groaning sounds. He still took seeds from my hand and sat at my fingertips to eat them, but he made growling sounds the whole time. And when I went in the garage, I could still hear him sassing her. I think maybe he's mad at us for leaving him out yesterday. He's never behaved aggressively to me before and it kinda hurt my feelings. There have been times when he's chased her away from me, but I always thought it was because he thought I was giving her a treat and he wanted it.

I know a lot of you have raised siblings before. What should I do here? The new cage is almost finished, so it's possible to separate them to make sure she gets enough to eat and some peace, but they've never been apart and even though he bullies her, he apparently has some serious separation anxiety. I don't want her to lose any more weight, but I don't want him to lose his mind. I love them both so much and it breaks my heart to see this change in him today.

[Kristal]

Hmm, seeds, what kind? Some members find that sunflower seeds make squees anxious and aggressive. I cut them out at JiTs suggestion and found that my anxious, little Babe was a bit more manageable for it. I have never had any aggression problems with my four, however.

What species are they? How big is their cage? Do they get out of cage time? How often and for how long? Have you tried cutting food up into smaller pieces and putting it in more than one bowl/place in their cage? Have you tried putting out some food for them while they are out?

They do get territorial about their stashes, mine do that, too. So are you allowing them to make stashes? Are their stashes inside their cage?

[SquirrelRefuge]

Different species of squirrels have different social behavior and most tree squirrels are pretty solo except when rearing their own young and around breeding time (and even then it’s not what I would call a romantic interlude).

It sounds like perfectly normal squirrel behavior with a little bit of brattiness thrown in. Squirrel survival depends on finding and keeping food so this is a pretty strong instinct.

You probably do want to separate them so you don’t end up with little squirrelets and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesnt become a real pill as he matures sexually. Females aren’t in estrus for more than a day at a time but it’s going to be hard for you to know when she is in a breeding state (although, I guarantee, he will!).

On any account, I have observed this behavior among siblings around the feeding station with released squirrels. He’s not trying to be mean and it doesn’t make him a bad squirrel, its just part of being a squirrel.

Can you provide food in an area large enough for them to maintain normal social distance (that doesn’t allow him to easily ‘guard’ all the food) or make sure she has ample time when he isn’t around to fill up? Like Kristal mentioned, they need lots of room and lots of places where they can hide food. Each will want to do their ‘scatter hording’ thing and will return for snacks.

Do you have a ‘squirrel room’ where they can exhibit this normal behavior? Having lots of room should also reduce aggression. Plus you can always leave extra food around for them to hide. As long as they are getting exercise and nobody becomes a Fatty McFatPants, no harm done.

As for the jealous behaviors when you’re loving on the girl… he probably is just being a brat. I would just try never reward any behavior I didn’t want to keep seeing… so maybe wait til he settles down before giving treats, but always give him lots of love and reassurance.

There’s not a lot you can do to change a squirrel’s natural temperament and these behaviors are probably why his wild ancestors survived long enough to make him.

[rusty's mom]

Are you planning a spring release, sounds to me they are ready to claim their place in the outside world. They could easily become aggressive to you it's their only way of saying I don't want to live my life in a cage.Squirrels are a wild animal so unless there is a special reason they want outside and a tree.:)

[justplainnutz]

Ok, I think I know the problem now. He's started making sounds he's never made before. I think he's calling for a mate. He's licking his willy a lot and making these prolonged duck-quacking sounds that I've heard the squirrel in the back tree make. And I've read that Feb is mating season.

Are you guys SURE they don't breed in captivity with siblings or cagemates? I've read that over and over again, but his behavior today is making me nervous. He's never acted anything like this before.

P.S. They are greys. Their current cage is about 5' x 2' x 5'h. The new one is 14' x 4' x 6'h. both are on the back patio.

My fear is that if I separate them"
1)they'll get too cold at night
2)they'll forget each other and become rivals (whereas they've always been pals.)
3)he'll never forgive me for separating them and he'll be too lonely. (They've never been apart for more than an hour in their whole lives until yesterday.)

[Kristal]

My guys flirt - even sometimes rather insistently, but no, my girl did not go into season. I think some practising is normal. That's why they playfight, too, after all.

If they are always or even very often in that cage, then that is your problem. They need space, end of sentence. If they don't get it then they are going to go pretty crazy and probably wind up with long term problems, either physical or psychological. Try to arrange for them to have free range of a room 24/7 and then let them out for more freedom as they need the mental stimulation and exercise. I am sorry, but keeping older squirrels in such a small space is mistreatment. Pardon me for putting that roughly.

My experience is that they are very social, playful and cuddly. My guys fight, but only occasionally and never seriously. I don't interfere with their social interactions at all since they are never dangerous for any of them. Looking at my wilds, I would say that they are pretty social even when they don't live a life of leisure like mine do. At least around my porch where they come together to browse they are quite social. Basically, Eastern Greys need others of their kind. I think it is a mistake to separate them unless you have to do it to save a life or for health quarantine.

Adjust the situation to make it more mentally healthy and look at diet, I guess. Plenty of people on this board swear that sunflower seeds or even other kinds of seeds make their guys crazy. Also, the penis licking is normal. They pull the whole thing out of its pouch to clean it. It looks like a big worm and is much bigger than you would think :)

[justplainnutz]

If his behavior had changed gradually, Kristal, then that would make sense. But he hasn't exhibited any signs of nervousness or anxiety or even restlessness (except for the brief times they've been separated) until today. But I don't think he just woke up today after a year of acting perfectly content in his cage and decide "today I'm going to go bonkers".

Besides, he didn't start acting this way today until I started working on the new cage again and then petted his sister. Then is when he started showing aggression. And three times today he's behaved like his normal sweet self (including right now) and gently licked my hand like always. I just realized few minutes ago that all three of those times were when his sister was sleeping in the box. Also, even when he was being aggressive with me a while ago, my mom walked up to the cage and he acted fine with her. I think it's a protectiveness/possessiveness thing. Cause he's acting perfectly normal when his sister's in their box. I don't know if it's because he's hot to trot and she's the only female around for him to lay claim to, or if it's because I separated her from him for most of the day yesterday and he thinks I'm trying to take her away.

I love to let them come in the house and run free in the big room, but my housemates/landlords object, so I only get to do it when I know they're both going to be gone for several hours (need time to clean up too), which is seldom. If I lived alone, I'd just squirrel proof the whole house and let them live with me. As it is, I plan to release them in the Spring and cross my fingers that they'll stick around and take up residence in the Chinese Chestnut tree or Pecan tree in the back yard.

[Kristal]

Oh yea, and regarding stashes, my guys seem to have each staked out a corner of their room, more or less. If another squirrel goes digging in their area and they have something in there, they get pretty cranky. I figure that they need their territory and just leave them to it since it is not a major problem. Stashing is normal and healthy behaviour. Probably they need enough room to do it, and the other squee needs enough room to stay away from it. Otherwise there are going to be confrontations, so that could be part of the problem, too.

[Anne]

Squirrels can and do mate in captivity. It doesn't happen often fortunately. Female greys mature around 1 year of age , males are a bit slower. Food aggression can be a part of growing up, use 2 bowls spaced a part if necessary. Food hiding,etc. goes up here just before a cold snap/change of weather. I would think that it will possibly calm down in a week or so and things will return to normal. If not, the change to a larger unknown cage may have a good effect.:)

[Kristal]

I love to let them come in the house and run free in the big room, but my housemates/landlords object, so I only get to do it when I know they're both going to be gone for several hours (need time to clean up too), which is seldom. If I lived alone, I'd just squirrel proof the whole house and let them live with me. As it is, I plan to release them in the Spring and cross my fingers that they'll stick around and take up residence in the Chinese Chestnut tree or Pecan tree in the back yard.

Uggh, landlords! How sad that yours lives near enough to surveil you :( That really sucks... Mine does not know, fortunately. I hope he nevereverever finds out, either :shakehead