One of my squirrels losing weight - slowly

[spamrestricted]

Hi,

Maybe I'm being over concerned, but if there is something wrong I want to catch and take care of it immediately. I have three squirrels - 2 female and 1 male and they are about 6 months old now - all from same litter - fell out of tree that was cut down in August.



Anyway, I weigh them each week and since end of October, they have pretty much stabilized, with gaining or losing less than an ounce each time. But Hope, who was the biggest squirrel and the one first to develope (her eyes opened first, etc). Well, on 10/22 she weighed 20.7 and since then she started dropping a little at a time, each week went to 20.4, 19.8, 19.2 and today was 18.5.

She is acting fine and eating fine so if I wasn't weighing I would have no idea of anything.

There is something she does that the other two don't. She will stretch herself along the log or the rug (I think she loves the rug for this), but she will stretch her whole body along what she is laying on. She doesn't seem uncomfortable and we actually think she looks really comfortable, but I've never seen the other two do this. I don't have a picture of her doing this, but I attached other pictures of her and then one with all three to compare.

I feed a full block of henry's to them in morning and then free feed the other blocks (kaytee and monkey biscuits) during day with giving them fresh veggies at lunch and then at night, I will cut up a henry's block into three pieces for each. She/Hope is eating all the time and eats like a champ.

Thanks,

Gia

[spamrestricted]

The other thing, I don't think it's important, but want to provide this info in case it is. When we started to care for them in August, Hope's tail's end was black (we think it got damaged in the fall) and eventually the black piece fell off - about 1-2 months after. Well, the tail never really grew fully and it has a hard ball on the end - you may be able to see this in the picture of her.

[SammysMom]

Oh my goodness are they ever adorable! I will leave your question to experts, but had to say how cute they are. Love the one of all three eating! :thumbsup

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Are they eating ALL the food you give them? Foxers tend to fatten up over the winter and will eat a ton in the fall. They do slim down in the spring, but yours don't have the chunky look, so I don't think that's what's going on. Do you give them any nuts or anything? Or just vegetables and the blocks? My foxers usually weight at least 700-800 grams over the winter then slim down to maybe 650 in the spring.

I wouldn't worry about the weight loss too much, but maybe provide a few extra fattening treats like walnuts in the shell or something like that. Avocado is good too. If all their food is gone that means they're probably still hungry :).

[lizharrell1]

The squirrel on the left looks like he tasted something bad:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

[spamrestricted]

Thanks everyone. They are eating everything, but not all the veggies completely, although more and more lately. I try not to do too many nuts, because they don't eat, because they thing a nut is coming. I give them nuts maybe a few times a week, 1 each. I do give avacado each lunch (when I have it), but was only giving a small slice split up - now that I know avacados are good for them to eat, I'm going to up the amount I give - by the way this is how I get great pictures of them together - they absolutely love avacados - we are trying to grow our own/save on money :)

Squirrelsrules&bunniestoo, do any of your fox squirrels spread eagle on a log or rug - basically stretching themselves where their belly is flat on the ground and almost going to sleep? This is what Hope will do sometimes - trying to watch for it, but no real conclusion as to why. Also, in October they appeared to have that chunky look, but other than the male/BD the two females lost that chunky look - I was afraid that was a bad thing so I would cut down on their food some. I won't do that anymore, your squirrels are so much more weight than mine, so mine must be hungry :sanp3

Thanks,

Gia

[Skul]

Stretching out like that is normal.
We refer to it as pancaking.
If you would, please describe the other vegetables you're feeding.
I doubt you have a problem, just curious.
The nubbin on the injured tail is also pretty normal.
It's sort of like scar tissue.

[spamrestricted]

Thanks Skul.

I want to apologize, I didn't realize I opened this under emergency, meant to under the non-emergency catagory :(

The veggies are - I tried everything on the healthy diet list, but they appear to like these the best - broccolli, brussel sprouts, green beans, yellow squash, zuccini, carrot (but not often due to high protein) and sometimes sweet potato, too, but same as carrot - sometimes red cabbage, tomato, too. I cut up some of each and give it to them al la carte -- :Love_Icon made me do it :)

[Skul]

Try throwing in a few slices of fresh mushroom.
Freeze-dried chicken is another thing. (Not the chicken jerky)
Cooked egg white and yolk is also good for them.

[Kristal]

Gah, Foxers are way too cute! :) :jump

Do they get any kind of boo-ball like confection? You sure have a handsome bunch, anyway ;)

[Busysqrl]

When you have multiples like that, sometimes one gets less food than the others because she is less aggressive at food time. Do you think that could be happening? I have a friend who has a male and female siblings that live together and the male started losing weight. As it turns out, the female was becoming more aggressive at feeding time and the male simply wasn't getting enough to eat.

I agree with the others, I think a few more calories would probably solve the problem. Avocado is what I use to fatten up my squirrels. They love it and it's great for them. I give about a 1 inch square chunk per day when I'm trying to put weight on. The rest of the diet doesn't sound too bad.

I agree about the pancaking too (laying flat on tummy). They love to do that particularly when they are going to rest. My foxer will lay like that for an hour or so just resting.

BTW, your foxer triplets are absolutely gorgeous! Very nice job there squammy!

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

If you think it's just an issue of the one not getting to eat because the others are more aggressive, you can scatter the food around so everyone gets some.

[jo_schmoe]

Gia,
I have this same thing going on every so often with my pair of foxers. They are siblings...and have never been apart.( 2 yrs old now) My male would not let his sister take first dibs on the food bowl. So any sort of treat they got....he was the only one getting. This was quickly remedied by adding another feeding shelf and door. Its normal for them to start to get aggressive over food...they are solitary animals and no amount captivity will unplug that from their brain. With 3...you may have to separate them eventually if they are not releasable. My two are still together...but there are times when I question if they should be. They still sleep together....but when and if that ends....they will be separated.
BTW...thanks for the TRIPLE dose of foxer cuteness. You have done an exceptional job!! ( Their gentle nature and goofy facial expressions have made them my favorite!!)

[Kristal]

Gia,
I have this same thing going on every so often with my pair of foxers. They are siblings...and have never been apart.( 2 yrs old now) My male would not let his sister take first dibs on the food bowl. So any sort of treat they got....he was the only one getting. This was quickly remedied by adding another feeding shelf and door. Its normal for them to start to get aggressive over food...they are solitary animals and no amount captivity will unplug that from their brain. With 3...you may have to separate them eventually if they are not releasable. My two are still together...but there are times when I question if they should be. They still sleep together....but when and if that ends....they will be separated.
BTW...thanks for the TRIPLE dose of foxer cuteness. You have done an exceptional job!! ( Their gentle nature and goofy facial expressions have made them my favorite!!)

Not to nitpick, but animals that socially groom each other into adulthood are not considered solitary, AFAIK. Eastern Grey and Fox squirrels have a sort of fusion-fission society that is similar to some of the lemurs and other lower primates, from what I read.

Also, aren't foxers supposed to be even more tolerant than the Eastern Greys? :dono Mine don't fight over food except for (stolen) nut stashes. They also still tolerate theft to a large extent, but it comes with a little grunt and a swat. The thief will then settle in right beside and touching the one that he "stole" the half an avocado chunk from, too. Tolerated theft is seen among all social primates, too. I guess it is a rough and very impolite form of sharing? :dono

Sorry to blah blah, but it always annoys me a bit when people say that squirrels are solitary. It's actually become a bit of a pet peeve :p I think that squirrels are more like us than most people seem to (want to) see.

[Kristal]

Well... it seems like fusion fission can apply to more complexly social animals than I was thinking - such as the super social bonobos.

I just got the term from watching some BBC documentary on lemurs. It depends on the species, because they are all different and some are even considered solitary, but the ones that they were talking about have a fairly loosely knit society that can span a wide area. They reminded me of some tree squirrel species.

They have overlapping home ranges, but no territories, as such, not unlike some tree squirrels. They also have buddies that they may or may not be related to and sleep in groups that may or may not be composed of relatives. In Britain Eastern Grey squirrels have been found sleeping in colonies as large as 12 individuals, IIRC, and these were not all genetically related to each other. They forage alone or in proximity to each other, not as groups. And they have periods of social grooming throughout the day with some tolerated theft being observed. They may also move in and out of ranges individually or in small groups, presumably in response to environmental pressures. And they retain a memory of other individuals and their relationships to them over the long term.

So yea, social, but loosely so, and not hierarchically organised like canines or some other social species.

Anyway... sorry, bad thread jacking! :tilt

[jo_schmoe]

Not to nitpick, but animals that socially groom each other into adulthood are not considered solitary, AFAIK. Eastern Grey and Fox squirrels have a sort of fusion-fission society that is similar to some of the lemurs and other lower primates, from what I read.

Also, aren't foxers supposed to be even more tolerant than the Eastern Greys? :dono Mine don't fight over food except for (stolen) nut stashes. They also still tolerate theft to a large extent, but it comes with a little grunt and a swat. The thief will then settle in right beside and touching the one that he "stole" the half an avocado chunk from, too. Tolerated theft is seen among all social primates, too. I guess it is a rough and very impolite form of sharing? :dono

Sorry to blah blah, but it always annoys me a bit when people say that squirrels are solitary. It's actually become a bit of a pet peeve :p I think that squirrels are more like us than most people seem to (want to) see.

Krystal...if you dont believe that squirrel are solitary animals....I would like to extend an invitation to come and meet "The Mayday Babies". One lost a toe today....he got too close to his brother on his escape adventure...and his brother bit the toe clean off. There was no grooming.....there was no brotherly love. There was a whole lotta "Get away from me or I will hurt you" going on though. Why?? Because they are solitary animals....animals that will not allow another into their space....unless its time to make babies. Although you may have observed some captive...or young squirrels grooming each other...I can prove to you that (tree) squirrels are in fact solitary animals. Now there are some species of ground squirrels that have incredible social networking.....but tree squirrels generally do not exhibit the same behavior.

I would love to believe that my two big foxers just love each other.....but they in fact don't. They would like to be away from each other....and make babies and be squirrels. They get their chance once again this spring...as they have had before. ( just to clear that little tid bit up)

Gia...as I said before...you may have to separate...just so you are prepared. Its not fun trying to slap together a cage in 2 hrs. Trust me.

[Kristal]

Well... IDK... Your experience sounds a lot different from mine. I'll point you to this post that I just made today:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=722734&postcount=102

My guys are 18 months old, too, so they are full on, hormonal, grown up squirrels.

When Rifa didn't give Squeaky the chest nibbles he was asking for, he pounced on Babe and held him down a little while he groomed the top of his head. So social reciprocity seems like a big thing for them. When one wants something such as grooming they will often do it to the other in the apparent attempt to engender a sense of obligation to be followed by reciprocal grooming. It's not so different from how humans interact with each other. Friendship is just a long series of mutual favours and an observed and remembered history of good behaviour, after all.

Edit: They do have occasional squabbles over nuts, especially stashed ones, but nothing like THAT. That is some rough fighting. I hesitate to ask, but could there be some reason for them to feel stressed out for maybe being in too close quarters to each other?

[jo_schmoe]

Well... IDK... Your experience sounds a lot different from mine. I'll point you to this post that I just made today:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=722734&postcount=102

My guys are 18 months old, too, so they are full on, hormonal, grown up squirrels.

When Rifa didn't give Squeaky the chest nibbles he was asking for, he pounced on Babe and held him down a little while he groomed the top of his head. So social reciprocity seems like a big thing for them. When one wants something such as grooming they will often do it to the other in the apparent attempt to engender a sense of obligation to be followed by reciprocal grooming. It's not so different from how humans interact with each other. Friendship is just a long series of mutual favours and an observed and remembered history of good behaviour, after all.
The observance of two captive squirrels as opposed to the observance of many wild ones...or every one that I have ever raised....does not convince me that they are not solitary. Do you know why they "groom" each other?? Its probably not what you think. Grooming stimulates the release of an endorphin...which is why the animals appears to be relaxed. This behavior can go on longer ( from my observation) in some species such as the Fox squirrels...which are in fact more "mellow". The same behavior happens in other solitary animals...such as raccoons...and badgers....but we agree the lead very solitary lives. It should also be known that what we see as grooming...may not be to the benefit of the groomee as much as we think. ( is that even a word?? LOL) Vit. D is absorbed through the animals diet ( very small amount) but also their skin ( large amount). Most of it is deposited in the fur of the animal....and consumed by licking...or "grooming" themselves...or one another.

[jo_schmoe]

Well... IDK... Your experience sounds a lot different from mine. I'll point you to this post that I just made today:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=722734&postcount=102

My guys are 18 months old, too, so they are full on, hormonal, grown up squirrels.

When Rifa didn't give Squeaky the chest nibbles he was asking for, he pounced on Babe and held him down a little while he groomed the top of his head. So social reciprocity seems like a big thing for them. When one wants something such as grooming they will often do it to the other in the apparent attempt to engender a sense of obligation to be followed by reciprocal grooming. It's not so different from how humans interact with each other. Friendship is just a long series of mutual favours and an observed and remembered history of good behaviour, after all.

Edit: They do have occasional squabbles over nuts, especially stashed ones, but nothing like THAT. That is some rough fighting. I hesitate to ask, but could there be some reason for them to feel stressed out for maybe being in too close quarters to each other?
:shakehead ...Now Krystal...there is no need for the implications....again...I invite you to come on over and observe. It could be educational for you...maybe you will learn more about squirrels...to better teach others.
250 gm red squirrel.....4x4x6 cage....not close quarters at ALL!! The whole problem is they are SOLITARY animals....and their cage is their home for now. When their territory is breeched....it war! Thats back in Squirrels 101.

[Kristal]

The observance of two captive squirrels as opposed to the observance of many wild ones...or every one that I have ever raised....does not convince me that they are not solitary. Do you know why they "groom" each other?? Its probably not what you think. Grooming stimulates the release of an endorphin...which is why the animals appears to be relaxed. This behavior can go on longer ( from my observation) in some species such as the Fox squirrels...which are in fact more "mellow". The same behavior happens in other solitary animals...such as raccoons...and badgers....but we agree the lead very solitary lives. It should also be known that what we see as grooming...may not be to the benefit of the groomee as much as we think. ( is that even a word?? LOL) Vit. D is absorbed through the animals diet ( very small amount) but also their skin ( large amount). Most of it is deposited in the fur of the animal....and consumed by licking...or "grooming" themselves...or one another.

That's pretty interesting. I just did a quick search, and you are right about the vitamin d in skin secretions. Check page 141 of this paper:
http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/VitDVieth/Vieth%20Anthropology%20vit%20D.pdf

But yea, endorphins, that's just a technical way of saying oooo, feels gooood, thank yoooouuu. Feeling good increases immunity, reduces stress and solidifies social bonds. Humans and other animals cuddle for the same reasons as squirrels do, I reckon. That paper suggests that some of our kissing and cuddling even may have come from gleaning vitamin d out of each others bodily secretions, so that just makes it doubly adaptive.

Then there is also the fact that the places that they cannot nibble themselves are their most sensitive places - the top of the head, eyes, ears, upper chest, shoulders and underarms. This seems socially adaptive since, if it feels good, you are going to want to do it. Why is it good to want to do it? Because it is beneficial for your species to maintain some kind of social bonding via reciprocity.

I've just seen them exhibit reciprocity so often between themselves and towards me. It seems like a major principle of squirrel behaviour and a very natural one. Reciprocity is the basis of all social relationships. Truly solitary animals don't do it into adulthood - except for maybe "if you get out of my way I will get out of your way and then we won't have to tear each other up just because we ran into each other"

Of course we are talking about different species, too. I have no experience with foxers at all except to know that they are adorable :p Then each one has their own personality, too, as anyone who has ever lived with a squirrel knows very well :)

[Kristal]

:shakehead ...Now Krystal...there is no need for the implications....again...I invite you to come on over and observe. It could be educational for you...maybe you will learn more about squirrels...to better teach others.
250 gm red squirrel.....4x4x6 cage....not close quarters at ALL!! The whole problem is they are SOLITARY animals....and their cage is their home for now. When their territory is breeched....it war! Thats back in Squirrels 101.

Omg, honey, please, NO IMPLICATIONS :peace

:eek:

I thought we were just having a nice discussion here :o Honest! :hidechair

I think that sometimes it is possible to "hear" a tone when reading text online that the writer didn't intend. I think that might happen around here a bit too often, actually :(

I am sorry about that, oops.

Erm... anyway, I see that you are talking about a little red. Those are notoriously territorial, both the red pine squirrel and the eurasian red are. So yea, that makes perfect sense to me.

Edit: Also, again, peace, my squirrel loving sister! :Love_Icon

(shifting uncomfortably in chair)

I just like a little discussion. Sometimes it could be a bit spirited, but never, ever personal.

[Kristal]

Also, I made the post just prior to that last one *while* you were posting that last bit, so again, I am not trying for a nasty way to make any point or anything.

Pardon me, please.

[jo_schmoe]

Omg, honey, please, NO IMPLICATIONS :peace

:eek:

I thought we were just having a nice discussion here :o Honest! :hidechair

I think that sometimes it is possible to "hear" a tone when reading text online that the writer didn't intend. I think that might happen around here a bit too often, actually :(

I am sorry about that, oops.

Erm... anyway, I see that you are talking about a little red. Those are notoriously territorial, both the red pine squirrel and the eurasian red are. So yea, that makes perfect sense to me.

Edit: Also, again, peace, my squirrel loving sister! :Love_Icon

(shifting uncomfortably in chair)

I just like a little discussion. Sometimes it could be a bit spirited, but never, ever personal.
Im talking about 5 little reds...AKA....little demons.....little *beeps*...little fire crackers....those guys. And recently my male foxer. Im up for more discussion....because I think this is a great subject.
Lets make a thread....and let poor Gias thread be.

[Kristal]

Sure, post a link if you would like :)

It's interesting to figure them out and compare them with other species (of squirrels). I have been fascinated with animal behaviour since I was very young, and I love to learn more about it.

Also, excuse us, the bad threadjackers! :tilt

Moving right along...

[spamrestricted]

Thanks for everyone's responses I appreciate it much. I will prepare myself, joe_shmo, if that unfortunate time comes along -- but my plans on to release them in May which most likely I'll be reaching out for help at that time again if just for moral and emotional support :)

It's not due to aggressiveness, because they all get to eat whatever they want -- plenty of food in their room. When I give them their hhb - I give each one a piece and watch them until they finish - which is pretty quick. The other blocks I always make sure is full (at least now I am) and veggies there is always some left over and during the avacado time, I'm watching them each get their fair share - because I'm there taking pictures until they are done -- :crazy

I just went into their room and what a mess, we brought them in fresh tree branches - so fun to watch them when we bring in fresh branches.
Joe_shmoe, I think I may be ok, because they have a whole room to themselves, with their cage in it. We were planning on remodeling the room so it became the squirrel room temporarily. In this room, they have their cage, a hammock, another place they made a next in a high shelf and their house - so they have several different nests within this room. Sometimes, I will see all three in the house together, then sometimes 1 will be on the shelf nest and two in the house - 2 females and 1 male. It's very intersesting to watch them. They play a lot, but so far no real fighting other than getting mad when BD/male keeps grabbing the females, but interestingly he mostly grabs Hope. I worry so much that they may mate -- but keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't happen while in captivity. How do you handle this with your two - male and female?

Thanks again,

Gia

[jo_schmoe]

Thanks for everyone's responses I appreciate it much. I will prepare myself, joe_shmo, if that unfortunate time comes along -- but my plans on to release them in May which most likely I'll be reaching out for help at that time again if just for moral and emotional support :)

It's not due to aggressiveness, because they all get to eat whatever they want -- plenty of food in their room. When I give them their hhb - I give each one a piece and watch them until they finish - which is pretty quick. The other blocks I always make sure is full (at least now I am) and veggies there is always some left over and during the avacado time, I'm watching them each get their fair share - because I'm there taking pictures until they are done -- :crazy

I just went into their room and what a mess, we brought them in fresh tree branches - so fun to watch them when we bring in fresh branches.
Joe_shmoe, I think I may be ok, because they have a whole room to themselves, with their cage in it. We were planning on remodeling the room so it became the squirrel room temporarily. In this room, they have their cage, a hammock, another place they made a next in a high shelf and their house - so they have several different nests within this room. Sometimes, I will see all three in the house together, then sometimes 1 will be on the shelf nest and two in the house - 2 females and 1 male. It's very intersesting to watch them. They play a lot, but so far no real fighting other than getting mad when BD/male keeps grabbing the females, but interestingly he mostly grabs Hope. I worry so much that they may mate -- but keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't happen while in captivity. How do you handle this with your two - male and female?

Thanks again,

Gia

Good to hear from ya Gia!
If you are planning release this spring you will more than likely not have to separate them. My guys are 2 now....and they just recently started not liking the other so you should be safe. Sexual maturity in foxers happens at about 1 yr of age in most places....but does happen a bit sooner in colder climates....around the 9-10 month age.
When I first got mine...I was worried about the same thing....mating. I was told that captive squirrels will not breed...but I still keep an eye on things...and so far....no mating. My male did try once...and his sister quickly beat the snot outta him...and I guess I cant say for sure he was really trying...he was just in position. He never tried again.
Your set up sounds almost the same as mine. They too have a room that was being remodeled as our family den....2 years later it has been renamed "The squirrel room". Its always a mess....ever right after I clean it.....but they sure do have fun!!!
Your babies look great!!! And I bet they enjoy the fresh branches!! I give my guys both Pine and hardwood....they really seem to love chewing on the pine.

[jbtartell]

Hi, well even with my sight being bad.. lol I looked close and the weight does not seem to bad but How is their water intake? I ask because they looked some dehydrated and that would cause apitite loss and some weight loss.. pinch the skin on the back of their necks between the shoulder blades. let it go and count how fast it takes to go back in to place. if it is more than
3 sec there is some dehydration. the longer it takes the more dehydrated they are. If this is the case you can let us know and you could get great tips for dehydration here. hydration is very important.

[skunkangel]

We call that stretch 'laying out like a squirrel skin rug' bcz all that isn't flat is their head. But perfectly normal I'm afraid. Squirrels just lose weight in winter, whether they are inside or outside, it's their instinct.

She's still eating bcz that's what is normal to her, but her body knows to slim down and wait for the spring's time of plenty. I'm surprised the other two aren't doing it yet, but they probably will soon enough.

[spamrestricted]

Thanks everyone. Since I've been providing more of the kaytee blocks, they are gaining quite fast :thumbsup I guess I was afraid of over feeding, but now I know this is ok. They are drinking water, I'm always filling it up and many times Hope will sit on my hand and drink when I bring in the fresh water :) BD is almost to 23oz, Hope is back to 19.5 and Twiggy is the same - and this was weigh in am before eating. I'll keep watching and making sure they have plenty of food. Thanks for everyone's help.