I need help for Curlie!

[Curliesmom]

My squirrel curlie is a 5 1/2 year old female eastern gray. Today her hips started making her squeak. Tonight i tried to pick her up and she came to me but screamed her head off like i was killing her. I dont know what to do. She gets sunlight and evrything i can think of thats good for her. Weve never had this problem before. Could she have fallen? We also have a 6 month old male that she likes to chase around. What can i do? And do you know if virginia beach va is a squirrel friendly city? I think i need a vet for her. Shes my life and my daughter please help me.

[madtowntom]

Hey Curliesmom,

Hang in there - there are a lot of people on this board that will try to help you and Curlie - of course it is Christmas eve so you may need to be patient.

Let's start out by letting us know what you have been feeding her? Was this acute onset or have you been noticing any other unusual behavior?

[astra]

Hi Curliesmom,

I am not an expert, but I will start with questions that experts will ask first:

1. please describe her diet in detail.
Does she eat rodent block regularly?... if yes, what kind, how many per day?
What veggies does she eat?
How often does she eat nuts/seeds/etc?
What formula was she raised on?... how long did she take her formula when she was a baby?... did she wean herself or did you wean her?

2. How did this start exactly?
What was she doing a couple of hours, immediately and the day before this happened?
Is there a chance she could have fallen?
When you picked her up, did you feel any bones out of alignment, sticking out etc? Any bumps, swollen areas?
Any fur problems (like scratches, ripped a bit etc)?

3. Are you sure it is hips, or do you think it is hips because she cried when you picked her up?
PLease describe in detail what you see and what you hear: how she moves, walks, holds herself.
Is she eating?... is she drinking? how is her appetite?
Is she cold to touch?... is she too hot?
is she lethargic?... what is her activity level like right now?
Is she pooping?... Is she peeing?


PLease describe her daily activities, what is her daily routine like?
What and how long is her out of cage time?
What is her cage like?
etc.etcetc

Please answer the above questions in as much detail as possible.

In the meantime, I can think of two things about this sudden change:

1. MBD, but I have not seen her diet yet - -when you post your diet, it will be clearer.
2. an injury.

Just in case this is MBD, please start Emergency MBD Treatment.
If this is MBD, this will save her, if this is not MBD, this will not hurt:
Emergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW.
Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:

Tums, rolaids, or calcium supplement (any kind)
a syringe or spoon

Crush one pill and add a little water or fruit juice to make a paste. Use the syringe or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone.

After you give the initial dose of calcium, give 100 mg calcium every 4 hours. If symptoms return or do not improve, try dosing more often: every 3 hours. Severe cases may need 50 mg calcium every 2 hours.

Your squirrel's symptoms should improve within a few hours; within 1-3 days your squirrel should be alert, active, and eating, with no seizures or paralysis. You should be giving 500-600 mg calcium per day. Keep track of how many doses you give so you can adjust the dosage if needed. You should work with TSB members to do this.

Important!

Any kind of calcium pill is okay for the initial dose. But you must use PLAIN calcium carbonate (without Vit D) from then on.

Many small doses of calcium throughout the day/night are best to keep blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

If symptoms worsen or return, give an emergency dose of 100 mg calcium, then consult with TSB members or a rehabber or veterinarian to adjust the dosing schedule. Relapses are very serious and often fatal.

White feces or a white film on dried urine may mean the dosage can be reduced, as this indicates not all of the calcium is being absorbed. It may also mean you need to give smaller doses more often.

The acute symptoms (weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis) will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones. (See the "Long-Term Treatment for MBD" below.)

More Tips

MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. You should pad the bottom of your squirrel's cage and keep him away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work. Squirrels with hind-end paralysis may benefit from gentle massage of the legs and hips.

[astra]

A few more things:

since she is not feeling well, may have a possible injury or MBD, please:

1. keep her where she cannot move a lot, jump and hurt herself even more. Either a lower cage, or the lowest level in her large cage.
Restrict her area of movement.

2. If possible, put a heating pad under half of where she is (don't let her go directly on the pad, the pad should be under her cage/container), on low.
No auto-shut off heating pad.
Heat is soothing.

3. Make a rice buddy as described in the Emergency MBD Treatment. Just before you give it to her, make sure it's not too hot and squish the rice so as to release any hot spots - so that she won't get burned.

4. Keep her quiet and dark, if possible.

If she is in a lot of pain, you can give her INFANT Motrin (ibuprofen). What's her weight?
If you give her weight, we could help you dose the motrin.

[astra]

I do not know if your city and state are squirrel-friendly.
So, until it is confirmed, DO NOT BRING HER TO ANY VET!
DO NOT TELL ANYONE YOU HAVE HER, OR SHE WILL BE SEIZED IF it turns out that your city/state are not squirrel friendly.

It is Christmas Eve, so a lot of people are at family gatherings and such.
Please keep checking here often - TSB experts are checking this forum.

In the meantime, try to answer the questions I posted above in detail.
Especially, about her diet.

And do start Emergency MBD Treatment. As I said, if this is MBD, it will help, if it is something else, it won't hurt.:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[gs1]

:grouphug there's nothing i can add to astras posts....

i'm thinking mbd ... they're in lots of pain and very, very breakable...

please be very careful when handling her ... i know that you are....:grouphug

fruit flavoured tums seem to be the easiest for them to take ... but ofcourse all squirrels will make up their own minds.....:grouphug

[astra]

:they're in lots of pain and very, very breakable...

please be very careful when handling her ... i know that you are....:grouphug
yes, careful handling is very important if this is MBD - excellent point!

[island rehabber]

Curliesmom you've gotten great advice so far -- how is she this morning? I know that was a lot of questions above but it will help us to help you. :)

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

VA is not "squirrel friendly" in regard to keeping one as a pet.

I'd start with the emergency calcium treatment today, and see if she starts responding.

If you decide to seek vet care, there are exotic vets in VA Beach - Pet Care Vet hospital - 757-473-0111, and Dr. Poutours -757-473-0111. Dr. Clerk is in Newport News - 757-595-5505. Call before you take her to ensure that they will treat her if you are not a licensed rehabber. If you run into issues, you can also call a rehabber -

Carol Bibbs
Evelyn's Wildlife Refuge Virginia Beach 7573401598
Lisa Barlow
Wildlife Response, Inc. Virginia Beach 7574207879
Beth Coulling Virginia Beach 7574213766
Debra Edwards Virginia Beach 7574044407
Jill Harris Virginia Beach 7573404396
Pennymarie Lazauskas
Nature's Calling Virginia Beach 7576398825

and many more . . . http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/injured/rehabilitators.asp?location=810

[Curliesmom]

Thank you for replying so quickly. Curlies such an important part of the family it would destroy me to lose her. My husband is a tree climber and we have our own tree service. So we get squirrels a lot. Curlie was our first. I recieved her at 5 weeks old and she was the runt. The others i took to the wildlife center spca. She weaned herself at 10 weeks old and i had already been trying rodent block but she hated the stuff. I had been in contact with Chris' squirrels and more. Got all of what i needed from her. Even being so little Curlie was different. She attached to both me and my husband. Its rare for them to like more than 1 person. So here we go:
1. Since she wont touch rodent block she eats hazelnuts as her main staple. She also gets wild acorns and pecans from the trees next to the house. Tree branches and dandylion greens/flowers, brocoli and carrots. I know it doesnt make up for the block but she would rather starve. She gets up and eats once or twice a day. Fresh water at 3 different sites.

[Curliesmom]

She eats once or twice a day. Sometimes she only wants to be held and is content to lay in our arms for however long we will keep petting her. If we stop petting her she reminds us with a nibble. She was raised on esbilac 1st step puppy formula and she weaned herself at 10 weeks old. She had seizures which were prob from mbd but stopped at soon as we started on current feeding and has been fine for this whole time.
2. She could have fallen because she chases the 6 month old boy Newt around. Could have fallen off the banister at the top of our stairs its one of her favorite places to spread out and chill. No bones moving no swelling no rips or tears shes normal temp. Eating and drinking normal and poops and pees normal. We have left her in her drawer to stay somewhere quiet. We check on her and give her food and water. Ive been letting her nibble a tums. Is it better to liquify it? Im not sure if its her hips or something else. She cries out if she even thinks im going to touch her butt. Shes a unique girl.

[Curliesmom]

Thank you for your help.

[Busysqrl]

Well it certainly could be from a fall, but from what you describe her diet, it sounds like she's lacking a good calcium source and most likely her pain is from MBD. They can go downhill VERY quickly with MBD, so it's crutial you start the emergency treatment ASAP, right NOW! Also a heat source will be good for her. A heating pad set on low under half her bedding. Also, you should keep her confined so she can't fall. If it is MBD, her bones are very prone to injury right now. Please start the MBD treatment today. If it isn't MBD, the treatment won't hurt her. If it is MBD, you should notice improvement right away. You need to follow the instructions to the letter. A nibble of the tums won't do it. You'll have to crush it, mix with water and syringe it to her. Please let us know how she does. Many prayers coming your way.

[astra]

agree with Busysqrl,

with a diet that has hazelnuts as staple, this is MBD. Which could have been compounded by a fall, if she did fall on top of her MBD (MBD makes her bones fragile, brittle, weak, painful etc etc etc).

Start Emergency MBD Treatment that I posted above.
Start it NOW. Not later. MBD is urgent!

Also, as much as she might hate it, she MUST have rodent block.
You will need to show her some tough love, and don't worry, she won't starve.

You can give her a variety of blocks: HHBs, Kaytee forte diet for rat and mice in a blue bag, Mazuri, Harlan Teklad at www.thecraftyrat.com

You can crush blocks, you can pour some Fox Valley formula on the crushed block.
You can make BooBalls, which is a combination of crushed block and Fox Valley.
Whichever way you have to get her to eat those, she needs it.
Since she is 5 years old, changing her diet might be a challenge, but it CAN BE DONE and it HAS BEEN DONE. You need to be firm with her and tough-loving.
Otherwise, she will be crippled, even paralyzed and may even die from this.

Please read all stickies in the Squirrel Nutrition forum http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=191
It's a matter of life and death for her..

If you have any questions - please keep posting them.

And please keep posting updates on what you give her and how she is doing - it will help our rehabbers monitor her progress and give recommendations accordingly.

:grouphug :grouphug

[island rehabber]

astra is correct -- I agree with all that she says above and urge you to begin the MBD emergency treatment ASAP. It WORKS, and it will save her life. :)

[Curliesmom]

Hey guys i got curlie out of her drawer amid a lot of growling and screaming(no biting tho) she keeps dragging her bottom. I have a 6 month old male could he have tried to breed her?

[astra]

Hey guys i got curlie out of her drawer amid a lot of growling and screaming(no biting tho) she keeps dragging her bottom. I have a 6 month old male could he have tried to breed her?
if she is dragging her bottom, her bottom is in pain!
With the diet she has, and the symptoms you described, most likely she has MBD. MBD OFTEN STARTS WITH THE BACK END WEAKNESS, FOLLOWED BY PARALYSIS.

MBD progresses faster than one might assume.
The more neglected it is, the harder the recovery.
She is in a lot of pain.

PLease start MBD Emergency Treatment right now and keep updating our rehabbers on what you do and how she does.

Squirrels very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very rarely can breed in captivity.
THEY normally, do not breed in captivity unless it is some fluke situation.

AT 6 months he has not reached enough maturity for any kind of breeding.

Please start Emergency MBD traetment.

[jbtartell]

Yes Sam did the same exact thing. and chris at squirrels and more helped me.. listen to every one because she will die from this a horrible death. go to the pet store and get Flukers calcium/vit D supliment powder. it is in the reptile section. spinkle this on her food.from here out.. also if she will take formula give her some mix in some heavey whipping cream and yogurt. it will help.. Sam licked the powder of my fingers. I put it on her food every time I feed her now. she is 6 years old and had it when she was 2.. Nuts are treats not a full diet.. Your baby need veggies and the rodent block and I also buy monkey biskets.. one of them a day with 3-4 rodent block. she is just spoiled but I promise she wont starve her self. it will hurt you more than her..lol I was dieing to giive sam nuts and stuff. do the block and monkey bisket in the morning and veggies in the evenings.. it may take a week but she will get the picture.. better a healthy baby than one that is hurting or worse. please do this she will become a wonderful heathy happy baby..after youget the calcium it her it may take 3 to 4 days befor she shows improvement. she will get better.. Sam acte the sam exact way. hope she get better soon..:Love_Icon :grouphug

[UDoWhat]

I have seen this over and over again. I am one of only a few Rehabiltators in this area that will work with MBD squirrels. If her diet has been one where the staple is nuts she has MBD, almost certainly. What astra and others have described for you to do is a must. You need to crush the calcium and mix it with water or apple juice or something she will drink the cal. in. Divide the dose of 500-600 mg (whatever is the suggested dose for day 1 and week 1 to start the emerg, treatment ) Keeping the blood calcium levels steady is very important. It is important to administer approx. 100mg doses at least 5-6 times in a 24 hour period including a night dose around the clock for I would say the first 4days , maybe all week, as the cal. levels begin to elevate. An explanation of this follows.
There is a limit to how much calcium the body can absorb at one time, so calcium given more often is the key with severe cases not increasing the mg of calcium.
By giving high doses of calcium we are artificially maintaining blood calcium levels by giving calcium orally, because the squirrel’s bones no longer contain enough calcium to maintain blood calcium levels normally from the diet and from the normal processes of bone building and absorption. Typically, once calcium is given, within minutes to hours, the squirrel "bounces back" and acts normal or almost normal. As long as you are still seeing symptoms such as seizures, loss of appetite, lethargy, paralysis, the squirrel’s blood calcium levels are still too low. And as long as blood calcium levels are too low, the body will continue to try to pull the remaining calcium from bones, which means MBD is actually getting worse. So stabilizing blood calcium levels is the critical first step before you can even begin the process of rebuilding bone, i.e., actually curing the MBD, which is the part that takes a long time. Stabilizing the blood calcium levels can and must be done quickly. In severe cases, calcium may be needed more often throughout the day and evening. For example every 2 hours.

Please follow this treatment to the letter for 8 weeks. I know how hard it is because in a few days your squirrel will appear well and you will be tempted to stop the cal. However it takes weeks to build cal back in the bones and even longer to re-build bone (months). Transition to rodent block , HHs monkey biscuits , Boo balls or whatever is a must. Keep us posted.

Marty BTW:Welcome to TSB we can help.

[Curliesmom]

Thank you all for the support and information. We got curlie out of her bed which she screamed about but had every oportunity to bite both of us but didnt. She loves us as much as we love her. Husband held her and i syringed tums into her and she drank it just fine. We are going to the petstore tomorrow and getting a supplement and a few things. I already have squirrel block. Ive had it she just hates it. We will find all her stashes also tomorrow. Theres a lot of them. Its called tough love and we love her. Shes what keeps me going. She came into our lives in 2006 when i was having problems in my life. I lost my grandma. I was a drug addict. Curlies what kept me from giving up. Thank you for your help. I will keep you posted.

[astra]

it's good you got tums in her.:thumbsup

Please, follow the Emergency protocol to the letter.
Make sure calcium you are giving her is PLAIN! No vit. D, no nothing.
At this point she needs PLAIN calcium.

Monitor her and post updates regularly so that we can monitor her together. That might help us possibly spot any other problem she might have besides MBD.
And it will help to make sure her MBD is being treated.

A lot of squirrels were saved through this protocol!
So will Curlie!
JUst follow it!:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[Curliesmom]

Curlie is about the same today as she was yesterday. Went out and got a calcium supplement but am using tum until she snaps out of this. She finally got fed up with us and bit me. I thought "oh great another bite) i got bitten from the male because i was going to give him a bath and i guess he figured if he bit i would let go. Lol not so. I gave him a bath with my finger bleeding.
Unfortunatly when we gave tums to curlie earlier today when she bit me on of her bottom teeth went into her bottom lip and i had to get it off the tooth. How long will it be til shes able to be held without screaming and biting? Its killing me for her to be like this. She seems so mad. Shes never been like this before. Im so worried for her.

[jbtartell]

when sam had mbd I gave her calcium vit D powder and she pull through it great.. I was told vit D is needed because it helpsthe body absorb the calcium. and it is true from the experiance..

[astra]

when sam had mbd I gave her calcium vit D powder and she pull through it great.. I was told vit D is needed because it helpsthe body absorb the calcium. and it is true from the experiance..
yes, absolutely, vit. D is essential for good cal. absorption.
But the reason Emergency MBD treatment suggests plain calcium is that cal pills with vit. D in pills for other species might have the wrong amount of vit.D for squirrels, which may actually interfere with cal. absorption and/or get easily overdosed.
I don't remember all the details for the explanation of this no vit. D in MBD treatment, but if you ask 4skwerlz, she will be able to explain it better than I.:thinking
This MBD treatment was just recently revised, with the input from other rehabbers on the board. Again, don't remember where that thread is.:thinking

[astra]

Curlie is about the same today as she was yesterday. Went out and got a calcium supplement but am using tum until she snaps out of this. She finally got fed up with us and bit me. I thought "oh great another bite) i got bitten from the male because i was going to give him a bath and i guess he figured if he bit i would let go. Lol not so. I gave him a bath with my finger bleeding.
Unfortunatly when we gave tums to curlie earlier today when she bit me on of her bottom teeth went into her bottom lip and i had to get it off the tooth. How long will it be til shes able to be held without screaming and biting? Its killing me for her to be like this. She seems so mad. Shes never been like this before. Im so worried for her.
this is only the 2nd day of tums, right?

Just make sure you are following the Emergency treatment protocol to the letter, with calcium amounts per day etc - every detail is important.

Keep her in a low cage so that she cannot harm herself.

If she had MBD and then, jumped and hurt herself, that could be the source of pain.
Even if she has a fracture, there is not much you can do except ensure she does not move, jump etc.

There are no bones protruding, are there?... so even if there is a fracture, it might be undisplaced and will heal with proper care.

Just be careful when handling her - so that you do not accidentally grip her too tightly and injure her inadvertently - her bones are fragile right now and ache.

:grouphug

[Darwin's Momma]

Thank you all for the support and information. We got curlie out of her bed which she screamed about but had every oportunity to bite both of us but didnt. She loves us as much as we love her. Husband held her and i syringed tums into her and she drank it just fine. We are going to the petstore tomorrow and getting a supplement and a few things. I already have squirrel block. Ive had it she just hates it. We will find all her stashes also tomorrow. Theres a lot of them. Its called tough love and we love her. Shes what keeps me going. She came into our lives in 2006 when i was having problems in my life. I lost my grandma. I was a drug addict. Curlies what kept me from giving up. Thank you for your help. I will keep you posted.


Isn't it amazing how they can help us through the rough times? My baby boy Darwin has brought me so much joy. I know what you mean about her not liking the block. I have found so much conflicting advice onliine about what I should be feeding him. The best advice I have EVER gotten was on TSB though. The majority of people on here are experienced and so helpful.

Now about those blocks:D Darwin was not fond of them either, but after I learned how important they are I started in with the tough love. What I did was (suggested by everyone on here) put only the blocks in his dish in the morning when he was the hungriest. I wouldn't give him anything else for a few hours until I saw that he was eating them. I had to make sure he was actually eating them though because he would pick them up and drop them. This was hard for the first few days because I felt bad, but we stuck it out. Now he eats his blocks like a champ! I always make sure there's plenty in his bowls, because like I said, sometimes he just picks them up and drops them right away. Now, even when he has veggies to choose from he still eats his blocks too. I only give him two nuts a day now, usually at night after he's eaten all his healthy foods. I hope this helps, because it worked for my picky eater! Good luck with her!

[Curliesmom]

Yes this is the 2nd day of tums and now calcium powder. I also now have two sore thumbs. Gosh i forgot how hard she can bite. She doesnt rip like some squirrels she bites deep. Shes still not wanting to be held or touched which is extremely hard because we always hold her. If we stop petting her she nips us to remind us shes there. I pray this passes quickly. It takes both me and my husband him holding her and me syringeing her. So she got me. Im on blood thinners so its not fun to bleed. But i do it cause i love her. Ive already picked up all the nuts. Hazlenuts almonds and wild pecans. Little boy Newt loves the calcium powder. He will be easy to convert. Curlie not so much. Her bottom tooth went into her bottom lip will she be okay? I had to pull it off her tooth and she bit me i was too close. Thanks for everything.

[CritterMom]

Will she willingly eat anything? You can hide calcium in a blob of almond butter or peanut butter, avocado is another good way to hide the calcium. Will she willingly hold and eat a Tums? If so, do that. I would rather mix it into something and have her eat it willingly than stress her with the syringe.

The screaming indicates that she is in pain and that is why she is biting. I am wondering if this is MBD PLUS an injury (the MB makes their bones very frail so it isn't out of the question).

Do you have her in a small area where she can't injure herself further?
Does she have a heating pad?

If she is in that much pain it might be a good idea to give her something for it. She may have an injury as well. They can take infant ibuprophen (motrin). If you have a weight for her I can give you the dose.

[jbtartell]

if you have gloves I suggest you use them..lol she cant help it she hurts.. just hide it in her food and try not to handle her. It hurts to be touched so just put it in like was said penut butter almond butter or what ever she can eat with out being held..NO NUTS... ahhh get som alvocodo.. she will love that.. but just after she is better the avocodo is very fatning.. so just after she is better give a smal amount here and there.. she will love it and it is good for her in small sections. just alot of fat.. sam eats it up with the powder on it..

[UDoWhat]

if you have gloves I suggest you use them..lol she cant help it she hurts.. just hide it in her food and try not to handle her. It hurts to be touched so just put it in like was said penut butter almond butter or what ever she can eat with out being held..NO NUTS... ahhh get som alvocodo.. she will love that.. but just after she is better the avocodo is very fatning.. so just after she is better give a smal amount here and there.. she will love it and it is good for her in small sections. just alot of fat.. sam eats it up with the powder on it..
The avocado is a great suggestion to hide the calcium or tums in. If she will eat it it may help you to not get bitten so often. I also agree with Crittermom that she could be in pain. You can offer her something for pain too. As she may very well have had an injury too along with MBD. Squirrels can have Infant Ibuprofen. It is the same as Infant Motrin. It is a flavored liquid. I get mine at WalMart. I would dose her at the 1 pound dose since she is an adult squirrel. The dose for a 1 pound squirrel would be .1cc every 4 hours. Also do not forget the heating pad suggestion that astra explained earlier. If her lip is bitten or you think it will form a sore then I would clean it and apply a topical antibiotic like Neosporin or a generic triple antibiotic on that lip 2-3 times a day. Please apply it with a long q-tip or popsicle stick so you don't keep getting bitten. If it becomes infected then an antibiotic will be needed. I think it will be ok. You too should also use the ointment on your own booboos.
You will soon need to transition Curlie onto rodent block. You can do that slowly by using the Boo Ball recipe found here at TSB or the Henrys health Blocks http://www.henryspets.com/ or some kind of block ground up with food she does like until she will accept the block. You can mix it with avocado, any kind of baby food , etc. It will take a month to make the transition. During this time do not offer nuts unless ground up to a powder and mixed with the ground up rodent block or Boo balls or she will not transition easily. I will PM you a few suggestions later.
Keep us posted as to her progress. Hang in and keep the faith... she needs you.

Marty

[Curliesmom]

Im going to try peanut butter and avacados i just cant keep picking her up its too stressful and painful. We did another dosing and this time i saw curlie in her eyes. Before she was not there at all this time she was. She moves around and runs so i dont think anything broken i think she just hurts. I dont want the psycological impact to be so bad that she never is curlie again so gotta try something else. And yes we started wearing gloves lol i dont want to get bit again. Her bottom tooth did go thru the bottom lip on the inside and every time we get her to dose her it goes right in the same stinking hole. So if we dont touch her maybe that wont happen. I pulled out the bottom drawer of the thing she sleeps in because shes staying in the bottom on the carpet instead of in the top in her nest. Thats ok we put shirts and underwear lol in with her. And i turned the heat to 78 with it blasting into her room right beside her. I also have her door closed so newt wont bother her hes nosey hes a guy. Well more later

[UDoWhat]

Im going to try peanut butter and avacados i just cant keep picking her up its too stressful and painful. We did another dosing and this time i saw curlie in her eyes. Before she was not there at all this time she was. She moves around and runs so i dont think anything broken i think she just hurts. I dont want the psycological impact to be so bad that she never is curlie again so gotta try something else. And yes we started wearing gloves lol i dont want to get bit again. Her bottom tooth did go thru the bottom lip on the inside and every time we get her to dose her it goes right in the same stinking hole. So if we dont touch her maybe that wont happen. I pulled out the bottom drawer of the thing she sleeps in because shes staying in the bottom on the carpet instead of in the top in her nest. Thats ok we put shirts and underwear lol in with her. And i turned the heat to 78 with it blasting into her room right beside her. I also have her door closed so newt wont bother her hes nosey hes a guy. Well more later

If you can the heating pad is a better option. Just like humans have sore muscles or osteoarthritis direct heat is better then a heated room. Many Doctors suggest direct heat for humans. It is also suggested for MBD squirrels too. Soothes the bones. If you can, a non auto shut off heating pad placed half on and half off her bedding on LOW setting , placed so she can not chew the cord will be very soothing to her.
I am glad she is coming back. That is what the Cal treatments do. They provide the bones restored cal and helps stop the pain as long as the cal is being replaced. In 8 weeks the levels should be restored and able to be maintained with the proper diet. Which MUST include rodent block. So thankful she is a tiny better. :Love_Icon

Marty

[Jackie in Tampa]

when sam had mbd I gave her calcium vit D powder and she pull through it great.. I was told vit D is needed because it helpsthe body absorb the calcium. and it is true from the experiance..
the problem with Calcium Tablets with Vit D is the ratios...they are all wrong..human and sq needs are different...BE CAREFUL.
you can absolutely overdose on vit D...
buying plain calcium is advised...and MY ADVISE is to feed mushrooms and give outdoor time{sunshine} to meet the D requirements.

otherwise, you are getting good advise...just wanted to interject the dangers of using the combo with sqs, not ideal.

Buy Boost or Ensure as a good suppliment...keep her on heating pad set on low, MBD hurts and causes achey pains. No jumping, no running etc..brittle bones..
sorry about your fingers ...ouch.
Use common sense...go slow, move slow, talk calm and soft..nothing sudden, no loud noises...no barking dogs etc..all these can bring on seizure activity.
:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[gs1]

be careful she doesn't jump or fall right now... her bones are very brittle and they'll break really easily ... ofcourse you don't want to overly upset her either but if you could remove anything she could use to climb it might be a good idea ..

keep listening to the great, great advice you've already had .....:thumbsup

:grouphug

[Curliesmom]

We dosed curlie again and let her walk around. And i noticed her back left leg isnt moving like it should but its still early and hopefully she will continue to improve. The only thing im really worried about is shes not eating at all. I put peanut butter with the calcium powder on it in with her but she wont touch it. It might just be where her lip is hurt. Any suggestions to what would intice her to eat?

[CritterMom]

Try the Ensure that was recommended earlier. It is easily available in any drug or grocery store and it is sweet - they usually like it. It is packed with nutrients and calories.

[Curliesmom]

Okay curlies doing better. She still squeaks when we pick her up but no screaming or biteing. Big improvement. We are using pecan flavored ensure but she will only take the amount that the calcium powder is in. She moved around more today and her eyes are bright and shiney. She even let me clean her with a wash cloth where she dribbled the mixture out of her mouth. She was sticky. Cant wait til she lets me give her a bath. Usually i have to get in the tub with her because she hates baths but it calms her when im in with her. We are going to bring her downstairs in the morning for a few mins for some sunshine. Going to get a uvb light soon. Jason hasnt worked in a few days. Its been a blessing to have him home. I couldnt do this without him. He holds her i dose her its perfect.

[jbtartell]

Wow really a bath.. I think Sam would claw me to peices..lol

[astra]

Okay curlies doing better. She still squeaks when we pick her up but no screaming or biteing. Big improvement. We are using pecan flavored ensure but she will only take the amount that the calcium powder is in. She moved around more today and her eyes are bright and shiney. She even let me clean her with a wash cloth where she dribbled the mixture out of her mouth. She was sticky. Cant wait til she lets me give her a bath. Usually i have to get in the tub with her because she hates baths but it calms her when im in with her. We are going to bring her downstairs in the morning for a few mins for some sunshine. Going to get a uvb light soon. Jason hasnt worked in a few days. Its been a blessing to have him home. I couldnt do this without him. He holds her i dose her its perfect.
great! Keep following the treatment protocol!
Her improvement proves that this is MBD.
But as Marty said, full recovery will take months, so keep up the work.

if she dribbled some, you can just gently wipe it down with a damp cloth or something. Whenever forumla gets on their fur, it needs to be wiped down or they will get "burn".
Overall, squirrels do not need baths.
Most squirrels hate baths. It stresses them out.

Baths are usually given to squirrels that have back-end injury and end up peeing on themselves, and similar problems.

If Curlie is not peeing on herself like that regularly, you do not really need to give her baths.
Again, if she gets some food on her - just wipe it down.
If she gets into something really messy, and without a bath she can't be cleaned, then, yes, give her a bath. But unless it is that kind of situation, you do not need to give her baths.
I am sure, both of you will feel relieved.;)

[gs1]

:goodpost

but astra i want to see the photo of the squirrel calmly taking a bath with her human....:poke :D

it does take months to build up bones again.... it's just natural ... bone growing takes lots of time....even growing hair takes months.....so she'll be ultra fragile and in at least some danger for a few more months.....

we've other people here who have been in your situation and can help.....

also i'd like to know how much ensure she's taking and what else she eats during the day...

also again i'll just recommend fox valley formula, probably ultra boost too and a full fat vanilla yogurt ... in case she doesn't want solid food....

(i'll only ever recommend the fox valley company ... the formula& ultra boost etc... it's the best company, with the most ethical standards and highest quality ingredients.... i'd recommend calling nick - the owner - and talking to him and seeing what else he could recommend .... http://foxvalleynutrition.com/main/prod.asp )

i'm recommending the ultra boost just to get some extra calories in her .... anyway please talk to him and get the formula ...many people here give their squirrels this in a dish of yogurt etc... it's insurance against mbd.... even if they're 10 years old ...it's always good for them.....:)




:grouphug

[jbtartell]

Me too..lol but please wear a suit...lol

[astra]

:goodpost

but astra i want to see the photo of the squirrel calmly taking a bath with her human....:poke :D

Me too..lol but please wear a suit...lol- allow me to doubt that such viewing is possible... I would think that these ablutions are of highly private nature, not for an idle online (or otherwise) curious observer :D


it does take months to build up bones again.... it's just natural ... bone growing takes lots of time....even growing hair takes months.....so she'll be ultra fragile and in at least some danger for a few more months.....

we've other people here who have been in your situation and can help.....

also i'd like to know how much ensure she's taking and what else she eats during the day...

also again i'll just recommend fox valley formula, probably ultra boost too and a full fat vanilla yogurt ... in case she doesn't want solid food....

(i'll only ever recommend the fox valley company ... the formula& ultra boost etc... it's the best company, with the most ethical standards and highest quality ingredients.... i'd recommend calling nick - the owner - and talking to him and seeing what else he could recommend .... http://foxvalleynutrition.com/main/prod.asp )

i'm recommending the ultra boost just to get some extra calories in her .... anyway please talk to him and get the formula ...many people here give their squirrels this in a dish of yogurt etc... it's insurance against mbd.... even if they're 10 years old ...it's always good for them.....:)




:grouphug:goodpost

[gs1]

- allow me to doubt that such viewing is possible... I would think that these ablutions are of highly private nature, not for an idle online (or otherwise) curious observer :D



:poke i want to see the squirrel in the bathtub .... the human can be fully dressed with jeans and a sweatshirt (which i was expecting anyway ... otherwise she'd be dressed head to toe in bandaids .... )

:D

hm.... i remember this is how i once bathed my cat ashley ... it was 15 years ago.... i used the shower ..... and she used me as a tree .... i wore thick jeans, long johns... and 2 sweatshirts.... she was mad!!! but she was so beautiful and fluffy afterwards....:D ... :thinking i wonder why i didn't do it more often:D

[astra]

:poke i want to see the squirrel in the bathtub .... the human can be fully dressed with jeans and a sweatshirt (which i was expecting anyway ... otherwise she'd be dressed head to toe in bandaids .... )

:D

hm.... i remember this is how i once bathed my cat ashley ... it was 15 years ago.... i used the shower ..... and she used me as a tree .... i wore thick jeans, long johns... and 2 sweatshirts.... she was mad!!! but she was so beautiful and fluffy afterwards....:D ... :thinking i wonder why i didn't do it more often:D
:D I am sure "once" was enough.
But seriously, it must feel so-o-o uncomfortable: I h-a-t-e the sensation of soaking wet clothes!!!!:D

[gs1]

:D I am sure "once" was enough.
But seriously, it must feel so-o-o uncomfortable: I h-a-t-e the sensation of soaking wet clothes!!!!:D

:D it's not great cause they're so heavy ... then the yowling cat and the flying claws..... and the look of 'you're trying to kill me!!! i'll never forgive you".... sigh... but still a perfectly clean, fluffy and sweet smelling cat.... :D i think it was worth it ... but i guess younger me didn't think so .....:D

[jbtartell]

I was joking..duh..:dono hehehe..trying to not think so much on Sam and surgery tomorrow.. I have a 50lb dog (wolamute)I gave a bath to today..lol or did she give me a bath? and alot of her fur..shedding grrrr. and only 6 months old. black with the bluest eyes..

[astra]

I have a 50lb dog (wolamute)I gave a bath to today..lol or did she give me a bath? and alot of her fur..shedding grrrr. and only 6 months old. black with the bluest eyes..:D :D

[Curliesmom]

Ha ha ha! Yes baths they actually do very well in the bath both of them. Newt does like a champ he swims. If im in with curlie i can lay her back and she will float. Sounds crazy but its true! I only do baths if 1) theyve been into something and got messy(newt!!!) and 2) curlie gets a bath maybe every other month. I have been wipeing her down after ensure so she doesnt get a burn but shes started to lick herself clean now. She isnt eating yet ive tried avacado and peanut butter and just to get some food in her a pecan but nothing. Like i said shes stubburn and will not do something she doesnt want to do. But i believe we can keep liquid in her. She is fat enogh to be ok for now. I think she will start eating soon. Shes doing better everytime we go in her room. She will get better and her diet will be what it needs to be and it will all be good. Oh and we tried yogurt she wont do it. ???what to do???

[CritterMom]

The lack of appetite is one of the symptoms of this, and it may take a bit before it returns. Ensure is a godsend in cases like this.

You might want to get some Fox Valley too. You can mix it up to liquid form and start by adding just a tiny splash to the ensure, very slowly adding more and more each day. Then you can grind up some rodent block and mix it with the ensure and FV into a thing gruel which you feed warm, slowly adding more and more of the rodent block and making a thicker and thicker gruel until you can just form it into little balls that she can hold to eat. Once you get there she will be on solids and eating a healthy diet. If you make all the changes gradually they don't notice they are happening and you don't get the turned up nose s quickly!

[gs1]

The lack of appetite is one of the symptoms of this, and it may take a bit before it returns. Ensure is a godsend in cases like this.

You might want to get some Fox Valley too. You can mix it up to liquid form and start by adding just a tiny splash to the ensure, very slowly adding more and more each day. Then you can grind up some rodent block and mix it with the ensure and FV into a thing gruel which you feed warm, slowly adding more and more of the rodent block and making a thicker and thicker gruel until you can just form it into little balls that she can hold to eat. Once you get there she will be on solids and eating a healthy diet. If you make all the changes gradually they don't notice they are happening and you don't get the turned up nose s quickly!


:goodpost ...brilliant!!!!


curlie...one day... really... must see photos or video .... swimming squirrels in little bathing caps.....:D :D :D

jbartell.....omg....need puppy photos too....:poke :D

[Curliesmom]

Pics maybe in the not too distant future. I have brought curlie downstairs in a little puppy bed i use for new baby squirrels. Shes dug herself in there and ive covered it so its dark and finally have put her on the heat pad. I wanted to be able to watch and make sure she wont eat the cord. She doesnt need electric shock. I have fixed some homemade pedialyte. Ive used it before for babies and figured what the hey hopefully it will help keep her hydrated. Shes pooping and peeing although her poop is tan colored i guess from the calcium and no food. She still wont take any avacodo so im still doing ensure. I mixed a little ensure with some left over esbilac powder with a little vanilla yogurt with the calcium powder in it and she took some of it. Im even able to hold her calmly and kiss her sweet little head. I think she will be close to normal in a few days. Sent jason out for green leafy veg and a few other things. Happy right now :) :)

[gs1]

in babies the heating pad is half under the container on low.... so they can't get to the cord.....

for her ... i'd guess the cord would be half under or fully under her bed but it would be large enough she can get away from the heat if she needs to .....

now that cord must be squirrel proofed

can you wrap it in plastic?

also maybe the heating pad should be in some kind of (non fuming,heat proof) plastic .... in case she pees ...or maybe she should be in a box herself that is plastic (and so pee cannot go to the heating pad)....

hmmm... i hope someone with this kind of experience can come on soon.... :dono

[jbtartell]

ok I hope curlie dont mind but here are my puppy pics the brown chi chi has less than a year due to accute enlarged heart.. xena is the big black pup and zoey is the black chi chi.. guess who gave me da bath,,..lol:osnap

[Curliesmom]

Nah curlie wont care. She will eventually have some of her pics up i just dont have internet to do it with. Wish i did shes worth being shared :). Shes still asleep in that little puppy bed i use for new babies. She picked it earlier so thats where she is on the heating pad. Her butts on the pad and her heads off the pad. Tells you which end is the problem. I have started giving her homemade pedialyte she looked a little dehydrated. Gotta fix that real quick. Shes been having chalky poops so i think i should reduce the cal? Poor babys not eating. She doesnt eat much to begin with but shes gotta be getting hungry. I mixed puppy powder with vanilla yogurt and some cal together and she takes that pretty well. Not sure what else to do. Just gotta keep going.
Beautiful doggies there!! I love her blue eyes!! Also hows sam? Ive been praying!

[gs1]

. She doesnt eat much to begin with but shes gotta be getting hungry. I mixed puppy powder with vanilla yogurt and some cal together and she takes that pretty well. Not sure what else to do. !


curly what puppy powder? not esbilac?

as crittermom said ... her appetite is down...

so the more concentrated foods you can give her (like why i was suggesting the ultra boost from fox valley, along with their formula)) the better ...even though she's a little bit 'fluffy' i'd not want her to lose weight too fast ... in cats it can lead to fatty liver disease ... i don't know about squirrels ... so i'd like to be cautious....

if you are having any more problems don't hestitate to start a new thread... these older threads don't get as much attention as the new ones.. and she is in danger ... she's basically in ICU right now... even though she's at home....

:grouphug

[gs1]

if you are using esbilac powder it won't even digest properly unless mixed with water in a special way ... otherwise it just clogs up their digestion ....

[astra]

if you are using esbilac powder it won't even digest properly unless mixed with water in a special way ... otherwise it just clogs up their digestion ....
yep, I think it has to be mixed with water AND sit almost overnight or something like that. And even then there might be problems.

As previous posts above (I believe by gs1 especially) indicated, Fox Valley + Ultra boost = the best, especially for someone as nutritionally compromised as Curlie.

Also, one of the most recent posts by Crittermom has excellent suggestions how to integrate blocks into her diet. Check it out.

When her appetite is down, it's especially important to be creative with nutrition to trick her into eating the right stuff.

[Curliesmom]

Great posting!! The only thing i had was the powder i used for newt. And i let it mix overnight. Ive always done it that way it mixes better and the babies ive had do good. Like i said newt is a little piggy and is healthy. I used esbilac for him. Ive wanted to try fox valley for my babes but have never had the money to send off to get it. I want to get some but jason will have to work so we will have money to do it. I dont work im disabled but dont draw disability because the govt says im not disabled. :( Im going to save up and get the fv and some other stuff because i want to do this right. Im trying everything i can think of to get nutrition into her. But i should be able to get some fv by this weekend (hopefully). She is peeing and pooping i was holding her and she peed on me lol

[gs1]

fox valley is i think cheaper than esbilac .... when you talk to nick ask him if you can pay in installments if that helps... a bag is about $10 and then theres the postage.... this time of year is the best time to order fv and then store in ?fridge i think .... because if it's mailed and it takes a week then you don't have to worry about hot temperatures the way you do in the summer.

as for esbilac if you don't mix it correctly it does just sit in their systems and we have had many babies die from it....

so i know you say that you know how to mix it but you can imagine why i'm a little scared of it....

as for nick ... he often will send you a bill with the package so you have some time to collect the money .....

:grouphug

so glad she's doing better :grouphug

ps: is the heating pad protected from getting peed and chewed on? you know i worry about everything.....:)

[Curliesmom]

Okay so curlies doing ok today we can pick her up and hold her she squeaks at first then just sits quietly. Shes not drinking that much and has hard poops big poops that are a medium tan. Too much cal? Theyre dry so i know shes not getting enough fluids. Im going to increase the amount of times i give her fluids(pedialyte). Shes stubburn and when she doesnt want more she shoves her head down and wont do more. Shes not dehydrated but has lost weight. Shes so lite. About a pound and 2 ounces so she lost about 2-3 ounces so im going to find the number for nick and call in an order. Can i have a list for all that i need? I appreciate all everyones done. I really do.

[Curliesmom]

Also going to make a new thread.

[Skul]

Batheing a cat is easy, my way.
Open lid, insert cat, close lid, turn dial to "delicate".
Don't forget to close the door to the laundry room. it gets a bit noisey.:D

[gs1]

Batheing a cat is easy, my way.
Open lid, insert cat, close lid, turn dial to "delicate".
Don't forget to close the door to the laundry room. it gets a bit noisey.:D


:bricks :the_wife :chair

sigh...:shakehead

[gs1]

Okay so curlies doing ok today we can pick her up and hold her she squeaks at first then just sits quietly. Shes not drinking that much and has hard poops big poops that are a medium tan. Too much cal? Theyre dry so i know shes not getting enough fluids. Im going to increase the amount of times i give her fluids(pedialyte). Shes stubburn and when she doesnt want more she shoves her head down and wont do more. Shes not dehydrated but has lost weight. Shes so lite. About a pound and 2 ounces so she lost about 2-3 ounces so im going to find the number for nick and call in an order. Can i have a list for all that i need? I appreciate all everyones done. I really do.


i don't know .... talk to nick ... he's never going to suggest anything for you that is to his benefit .....

so if he suggests fox valley formula ...and the ultra boost and something else then go for it ... he understands nutrition......

also 4skwerlz knows a lot about mbd you can call her as well and see if she suggests something else.....

here is her information ...the phone number is the top right...


http://www.henryspets.com/